TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

[beginning at 3:50]

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in. [pause]

CLIENT: Oo, it's hot here. [pause] How are you?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you.

CLIENT: Sorry I couldn't come on Monday, I was in Ohio. I think I e-mailed you.

THERAPIST: Yes, I got your e-mail, thank you.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know if it was on time. [laughs] What should we talk about? [pause] It's funny-or not funny, just weird to go to Ohio after a long time. I was thinking about Graham a lot. I keep thinking of writing him, but I know I won't, I shouldn't. It's just it's interesting to observe that from a distance, you know. Like he is quite an interesting guy, you know, like culture, and is always thinking in interesting ways. I was never like bored in his company. I was very anxious and "on the edge," right?

THERAPIST: On edge. [6:30]

CLIENT: On edge. [laughs] I will never get-I always mix up my idioms. But I was always on edge and anxious. But never bored, you know. He always knew like the best places to go to for eating, and like, you know, the nightlife and all that. And I always thought I was learning something new, you know, it was always-it's nice to have that stimulation, like it keeps your brain engaged. And you don't notice you'reBut you do notice, that's the funny thing. While you're engaged, and also on edge and anxious and like, you know, on the verge of screaming or crying. It's both. Like your heart is feeling something and your brain is feeling something else, you know?

THERAPIST: I'm not following. You're always on the verge of screaming or crying? Over what?

CLIENT: No, just with Graham, like last time-I felt very nice earlier, like there were moments when I felt very kind of engaged and com-not comforted and safe, but, you know, like comfortable in my own skin because he seemed to be approving, or you know like complimenting. Well, obviously that was just when he was, you know, interested in having sex. [laughs] Or maybe not that, but you know. But then last time, since the last time things were-and last time things were really weird between us, and he was very critical of my clothes and everything, and so-my behavior I guess, I don't know. So the things he was saying personally to me were hurtful, but-you know, the things we were doing might have been interesting to my head, but my heart was feeling something else.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [9:00]

CLIENT: I spent most of my time in Ohio with Nelson this time, so I was just comparing and thinking about that. Like I was bored, but not anxious or on edge, or like not on the verge of crying or screaming or anything. Yeah, it's funny, I took both Graham and Nelson to like the same place, it's the restaurant that I like near my school. And Graham came in, and they sat us, and then he was all of a sudden like, "Okay, this is not right, let's go somewhere else." So then he picked a place much more expensive and stuff. But I felt completely uncomfortable, you know. So. But then, you know, Nelson didn't do that, he was the opposite. He sat down and he was cold, and he was uncomfortable.

THERAPIST: Cold? [10:00]

CLIENT: Cold as-oh, sorry, the weather was-I don't know, it has-this place has a patio and like it was a little chilly. But yeah, he was cold also because-a little cold personally, just because he was uncomfortable. Not knowing what to order or how to pronounce certain things. He was like, you know-I was trying not to judge him, you know, not like, "Oh, you're not cultured enough." [laughs] You know, but. And I was thinking that, you know. But now I'm wondering, I should just completely change my thinking, and I'm tired of thinking this way of like comparing people, and specifically guys, and thinking what they bring to me and what I get from them. I think I'm tired of thinking that way and I want to make-yeah, I don't know what the alternative, but something like, you know, what I want and who I am. Maybe not as self-centric as that. But I don't think trying to know who I am is that self-centric. I mean, it's self-centered in a way, but it can be positive. Because I'm totally like-some days I'm really, really like lost I feel. [11:40]

And like I want a place of my own, no roommates, where I can have all my books. And cook, you know, and establish myself. Because I have all these disparate things, if I just put them in one place I feel like I'll know who I am, you know. I could get Chris's-my books are at Chris's. And my art is at Chris's. My kindness is-well, kindness, it's too lofty a word. But you know, like little things, childhood things, are with my mommy. And, you know, my wildness is at Nelson's. [laughs] So that's like I really-I'm like spread out in different people's homes. But that has to wait until I can make some money, so. [13:00]

But getting too-like too much to like think about, "Oh, he did this. Oh, he said that. And then that guy said that. And what does that mean?" You know, like I'm tired of that. Nelson and I were talking this weekend, and I don't know, I guess-like he has a little-he subterfuges a little bit-or maybe it's just my paranoia. But like we were talking about I don't know what. But he's already talking about marriage, but I was just talking about like us I guess. And he said something like, I don't know, "I want someone who's much more confident." And, "I'm a social person and I need, you know, my companion to be able to interact socially," and all that. I'm like... And I just felt like coiled-like a little coiled up inside me, with like felt really insecure when he said that, because, you know, I do lack confidence.

THERAPIST: Nelson was making a comment about you?

CLIENT: Yeah. ButWhat did I say?

THERAPIST: I didn't know if he was sort of speaking generally or was speaking to you in particular.

CLIENT: Well, I guess both. But like, yeah. And that must have had some reference to me I guess. But... I don't know. Yeah, and he was saying that. And then I was just like thinking of Chris, and I was like-I was feeling really sad. I was thinking, you know, Chris and I had blind love, Jeremy and I had blind love, and like, you know, we just wanted to be together and get married and like, you know, in a speech you know. And they didn't find faults, they just fell in love and then they were like, "Okay, this is it, cling and hold on." But then, you know, as time went by and problems arose we-I guess we didn't do anything with them, and like went and didn't really deal with them properly. [15:45]

So Nelson was like, "No, well, you know." And I was like, you know, "You just-I don't want-I want blind love," and that we should just break up because, you know, we want different things. And then he was like-I don't know. Well, you know, like-and he was like, "You're too practical," and these otherHe was like, "You can't have both, you know. Like I hope I have been understanding, and you can't have someone understanding and have blind love," or something. "Because I went out with you despite the fact that even after you told me that you were staying with your ex-boyfriend and you were the first with him." [chuckles] So.

THERAPIST: I don't understand, did he break up with you?

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: Did he break up with you?

CLIENT: No. No, I was trying to break up with him. [laughs] But it didn't happen, so. Then he teared up. I don't know. But he was just saying, you know, likeAnd then all of a sudden he was like, "What are we talking about? I thought we were talking about marriage." And I was like, "No." And then he was like, "Then we're good, we're just talking about us." And I was just like, what just happened? This conversation gets really confusing I think. Because I'm not paying attention, and I'm like bored by it or something, and like-yeah.

THERAPIST: What was boring about it? [17:30]

CLIENT: [laughs] Because, I don't know, I wasn't very interested [unclear, laughing]. And this is what I mean, like I don't want to like think aboutBut I don't [need? 17:57] Nelson to think about conversations, I want to do things [with?] thinking. But when we change it in a way that it's like a small thing in the larger-in a large house where there are other things, and like, you know, there is other bigger more important things. You know what I'm saying?

THERAPIST: No, I actually don't know what you're talking about.

CLIENT: So like we-constantly thinking about what Nelson said and what it means, and what I said to him and then what that means. And that like constantly-like and making that to be something really huge and significant. I want it to be less significant, and I want to put it in such a perspective that it feels less significant than it's-and I'm less like buffeted by it, like the back and forth. And like I want a different emotional center, like a core that is built of more stable stuff I guess.

THERAPIST: Mm, okay. More secure.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I don't want that just to be like a [unclear 19:17] instead of like [unclear], you know. You know, which I can't eat, or, you know. Like I want my oxygen to be something else. [pause] Because otherwise I feel completely like that and subterfuged, you know, about Nelson. But like, you know, like not in control and confused all the time and-even by little things. You know. [long pause, almost two minutes]. Do you think having a place of my own will help me in building my core, or... [22:00]

THERAPIST: Sure. The question is what form will it come in. Is a place of your own emotional, is it physical? Will physical help in emotional? The problem is now that you rent a place of your own but you can't live there. So that didn't solve that problem.

CLIENT: No. [pause] [unclear 22:35] just live with myself. [laughs] Yeah, we haven't tried stuff. I actually go there and like stay put, but... [pause] I'm trying, I'm trying to make-I'm working on it, it's just not happening right now. I think it might, you know, like because Chris's will be off, and he'll be at home working, so then I'll probably feel like I need to be all by myself in the room, and then maybe I'll call it my place. [laughs] [pause] And I don't know, completely my own place might help me, like having all my things there maybe. It's just that my unique situation makes me very nervous, and then I use the excuse of my mom to be like, "Oh yeah, I can't afford it." I definitely use it as an excuse. [pause] Maybe if I think about it I will eventually do it. Because I didn't even think in these terms earlier. [pause] [26:15]

And then there is like-I feel like once I build up enough reasoning power then I might maybe have more strength to do it. And like I keep telling myself, "Everyone's lonely," you know, like, "Everyone deals with the same stuff I'm dealing with. No one is immune." And especially like this time of the year when people are going away for holidays, and they're all stuck at airports at first, but they were eventually getting to their destination and families and lots of family members and stuff. I'm just feeling very left out. But, you know, there are so many people who are left out. My mom gets lonely too, you know. I was helping her with her work yesterday and like she couldn't last like half an hour without watching her TV. [chuckles] It was like-and that's how she deals with her loneliness, you know, she likes the constant noise and stuff. Chris drowns himself in work. [chuckles] Everyone drowns themselves in work, or TV.

THERAPIST: Really, because everybody's lonely?

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: Because you feel everybody is lonely? [27:00]

CLIENT: Well, I'm just like telling myself that's why I'm like-so I can, I don't know, try and live by myself and deal with that loneliness.

THERAPIST: So you anticipate feeling lonely.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think if I anticipate I will probably prepare myself, you know. I'm trying to be more realistic, you know, and not-because I feel like I have this tendency completely to be unrealistic. So I think that's progress. I don't know. [chuckles] But are you seeing it as something negative, or...

THERAPIST: I'm trying to understand how you're feeling.

CLIENT: Yeah. But like you said, anticipating being lonely, like as opposed to something else, or...

THERAPIST: No, I'm just wondering-yeah, I'm wondering where the loneliness is coming from.

CLIENT: Oh. You mean like as opposed to like anticipating-I don't even know what I was like with anticipating. [laughs] Well, like what would you anticipate if you had an evening by yourself?

THERAPIST: Not loneliness.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: I anticipate tons of things, positive or negative I guess.

CLIENT: Yeah? Well, there's some activity. [pause] Well, like I could read stuff, read books, then I'd just be reading. [chuckles] Reading, you know. [pause] What else is there, I can't think of anything. Either occupying my mind, or leaving it empty so I feel sad. Two options.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Can you give me a third? [chuckles]

THERAPIST: If that's how you're feeling, that's your feeling.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm just really curious to like see something else.

THERAPIST: Well, you could not feel lonely, in theory.

CLIENT: Yeah. Then what would you feel, what would be the feeling?

THERAPIST: I don't know.

CLIENT: No?

THERAPIST: It could be anything.

CLIENT: Like what?

THERAPIST: It's hard to imagine.

CLIENT: Yeah?

THERAPIST: It's hard to imagine.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Feel at peace.

CLIENT: At peace?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Why?

THERAPIST: Why not?

CLIENT: [chuckles] [30:00]

THERAPIST: Well, what isn't there to be at peace about?

CLIENT: Lots of things.

THERAPIST: Like what?

CLIENT: You don't know enough, there's so many books to read, you haven't read them so there's work to be done. So much to be explored, so much to feel angry about, sad about. [chuckles] Avoid, not avoid. [chuckles] I imagine like, really, really, really, really old people feel at peace. [chuckles] And like sitting quietly in an armchair or something. [chuckles] I'm really in fear of that. I don't like that picture. [chuckles] [long pause, one minute] And as an only child I always like-I did have to entertain myself. It's not that I never ever liked being all by myself, I did. I do understand that state of mind where you're spending time just by yourself for days. Well, maybe not days, but maybe like hours. So I know that state of mind, and I know that there is joy and comfort and peace there, it's just... Recently I guess I've just been in a very unstable, really insecure place. [32:40]

THERAPIST: Well, it sounds like one of the ways you anticipate feeling lonely is that you'll be left alone with your feelings without any distractions.

CLIENT: Hm. Yeah. Distractions. Well, there are distractions. There's the computer, that's all you need. [chuckles] Movies, TV, work, music, books. There are distractions. [long pause] I guess there's also like the meaning of things that I'm scared of I guess. If I could just tell-I mean, and I'm telling myself it doesn't mean anything right now. Right now is not when everything is going to be decided, and you know, this isn't like the ultimate thing. You know. [pause] Like one time, one evening I was sitting at my place in my room waiting to go somewhere, and it just felt like a sentence, you know, like a jail sentence, because... I was like, "I've done this to myself. I walked out of Chris's place. It was beautiful, I made it beautiful. And it was the two of us, and we shared this and that. And like he was comforting me, and he offered me safety, and we had love, but I broke it, and here I am punishing myself." [chuckles] [35:30]

THERAPIST: And what happens that you create that narrative? That's the whole narrative.

CLIENT: It's not?

THERAPIST: Do you think it is?

CLIENT: At that time it seemed pretty convincing and complete. It's not?

THERAPIST: Do you think that Chris is the right man for you, you're sure of it?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Then what are you doing with Nelson then if you're so sure?

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Well, you can't be sure then.

CLIENT: I have no idea. It's like your right hand was doing something and your left hand was like, "What?"

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: No, I think I've put myself in this dark box in which I forcibly don't see anything, even though I see it. Yeah, what happens? [chuckles] Where does it come from? Just I guess I guess really being scared. I don't know what I was. [pause] Just that intense-that moment becomes very intense, and it's everything, and there's nothing else. Like the professionally painted walls at Chris's place, versus the walls I paint. It was painted like there was great joy in painting them myself, and getting the paint, using it, and matching it with my curtains. [chuckles] [pause] I guess-I mean, guilt, I feel intense guilt for leaving him knowing that he still loved me and I still, you know, love him. [pause] But there are other moments that were not so bad in that place, when I was actually working or... So. [pause] Should I like focus on the moment where I decided to move out? To give myself strength, to like complicate that narrative. [long pause]

THERAPIST: Well, I guess one question is, why do you want to simplify it? [40:20]

CLIENT: [I didn't feel a want/I don't know if I wanted?] to simplify it. It feels like voluntary.

THERAPIST: Hm, I don't know.

CLIENT: Maybe I do. To make myself suffer? [chuckles] I like suffering? [chuckles] People do say I'm really hard on myself, and like I have really, really high standards for myself, and I never achieve them. [pause] But I'm trying to be so relaxed. I'm like, I'm so ridiculously relaxed now that I-you know, I do indiscretions, and then-that normal people who are quite relaxed with themselves won't do, you know. [chuckles]

THERAPIST: Well, how do you mean?

CLIENT: Well, like seeing Chris and Nelson. [41:40]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean, you go back and forth.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: Between being very harsh and giving yourself permission for things that you don't actually want to give yourself permission to do.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or kind of turning a blind eye, but then feeling guilty, and then-

CLIENT: Yeah. [pause] Again, me being needy, really needy. The balance is not there I guess between two extremes.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [pause] What did you feel at the end of the weekend with Nelson?

CLIENT: Why?

THERAPIST: I'm wondering. The way you presented it it sounded very vague and hazy. I really didn't get a sense at all of what was going on.

CLIENT: Well, I was having my period so we didn't have that much sex. But it's like, you know, the sex with him is mostly like-I don't know, we haven't really discussed it that well, but it's mostly like he-his climax is important. And it's not even like sex sex, or intercourse, you know, it's like whatever. But I'm really attracted to him so I find it very nice and I like it, whatever we do. But still at that moment it is like, oh. And then I build that narrative, like, "Oh, it's all about you, isn't it?" [chuckles] You know. I don't know, I felt weird, you know, like saying-because he has an apartment in Ohio, I've never actually spent a night in it. Always like gone to Aurora andI was thinking about Graham, you know. Like I was thinking how he was more interesting, but made me feel weird. But Nelson is nice, andI guess I felt nice. I don't know if I allowed myself completely to feel nice, but I felt okay, I felt-I don't know if I felt at peace, but maybe I felt at peace, and thankful to him.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: You know what, that's what it is, I don't like being at peace. [laughs] I want to be uncomfortable, and agitated, and anxious.

THERAPIST: Well, that's a lot for us to talk about.

CLIENT: I guess.

THERAPIST: If that's at leastIt's clearly not the whole truth, because peace is appealing too.

CLIENT: Is it?

THERAPIST: Well, otherwise you wouldn't even-if you wanted to be anxious and agitated why even bring it up, you just do it, you don't need to talk about it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know what, I hate to end on that note because it's really important, I think we should continue to talk about that.

CLIENT: Okay. [45:00]

THERAPIST: So, you know, the next two Wednesdays, I'm here the whole week except for those Wednesdays, so I'm happy to just meet on Monday. If you want to try and reschedule the Wednesdays I'm happy to do that too.

CLIENT: Okay. So I guess if you want to let me know what times.

THERAPIST: Sure. Do you want to do that now or do you want me to e-mail you.

CLIENT: Whichever's better, e-mail works too.

THERAPIST: Okay. And you're around the other days.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm here.

THERAPIST: Okay. So I will-yeah, I'll e-mail you in the next couple days.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But I'll see you on Monday?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I'll see you on Monday, I'm here both those Mondays.

CLIENT: Okay. Thank you.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And have a good evening.

THERAPIST: Okay, thank you so much.

CLIENT: Sorry, I think I made a mess here with my shoes.

THERAPIST: That's okay. Oh yeah, no worried, I know it's-

CLIENT: Oh gosh, what have I done?

THERAPIST: No worries. [unclear] vacuum, it's not worries.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay, take care.

CLIENT: Bye.

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