TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: It’s going to feel weird for a bit.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it’s different, right? New furniture, new layout. It makes everything feel a little bit different.

CLIENT: You’re closer to me now. I shouldn’t walk on this carpet.

THERAPIST: Oh, don’t worry about it. These carpets are [inaudible] The chairs are high.

CLIENT: Yeah, so now you feel like a [inaudible]

THERAPIST: They’re a little high. Well, I’ll figure stuff out.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, so change is good.

THERAPIST: Try this, the pillow might be help to...

CLIENT: I can’t sit on it. [00:01:03.25]

THERAPIST: No, if you put it on the back.

CLIENT: Oh, okay.

THERAPIST: It kind of moves you up a little bit.

CLIENT: All right.

THERAPIST: Did that make a difference?

CLIENT: Yeah, it does. I guess because you’re sitting on the edge more.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you’re sitting my other chair was deep, that purple chair, and that helped.

CLIENT: Okay. I feel like I’m in a new space. It’s weird, huh, how orientation really affects you, huh? It’s like changing your thinking. So I had a stressful week and weekend. But I finally made it home. [00:02:07.00] We spoke last Wednesday, right? So I was too much into the two guy thing and it just got too much. And then I feel I realized that I need to kind of make a change and work on my core and find that again. [00:03:01.24] So over the break I have a deadline to meet so I’m hoping that’ll just take away that’ll help me to get rid of distractions or put things in perspective. But (pause) yeah, I mean going to Ohio to see Nelson [ph] and then coming back to Chris, that felt completely weird and why am I doing this sort of thing. [00:04:28.05] And his place is nice and I’m thinking of I kept thinking of what you said about why can he not feel powerful about association. And I was wondering that’s what we had built, and we built this place together and it’s pretty because I contribute the aesthetics and he pays the rent. So it could have been like an equal partnership if I saw it that way but I didn’t. [00:04:58.15] I felt smaller and taken care of and not independent, and so that’s why I took stepped out. [00:05:12.14] I kind of when I saw that those two, I think the reason for being there and the reason for not being there (pause) then it’s what you said, I have to remember why I stepped out. Every time I think of being at my place and anticipate the [inaudible] and build that narrative that oh, I messed up and now I have to suffer, and this is my punishment. [00:06:01.19] So instead of that, remembering why I left Chris in the first place, or wanted to leave him in his place, remember that. I’m not exactly remembering that anymore in the sense that it’s not like a strong emotion anymore, so I have to kind of logically think about it. Think about it instead of that sensation, that feeling being there and guiding me, basically, to react. So I don’t know. Yeah, and then I guess Nelson [ph] came back from Ohio and that was just like things between us got weird again because over the weekend it was good or whatever, I don’t know. [00:07:18.28] There’s two sides to everything. I could say they’re good and then but then I could qualify that statement and say all kinds of other things.

THERAPIST: Like what?

CLIENT: Well, so I talked to my other friends about him, this guy at school. I don’t know why we just started talking about sex, and I tell him about my experiences and stuff. So yesterday he was like this guy is clueless is bed. I can just tell. [00:08:03.03] And then I was like no, but la, la, la, la, and he’s like stop it. You don’t need to say anything. I from what you’ve told me, he’s clueless. But then so you could say that. But I would say I don’t mind because in my head the association is I’m having fun and this is fun. I think of sex as dangerous and it should be like that, and with Chris it’s all safe and comfortable so I don’t have as much fun as I have with Nelson [ph] because in my head the association is [inaudible] But I don’t even know if it’s association. It’s also, I don’t know. I’m more attracted to him. Maybe that’s because of all the dangerous and all that stuff. But it’s also it’s just that he’s more confident and stuff. [00:09:01.02] So even though he might be clueless, according to my friend, I still kind of don’t think of him that way. But yeah, so those are the qualifications I could make. And in Ohio, also, I felt like we were a little disconnected, like we were walking on the street and he wouldn’t hold my hand or something. It never I don’t really hold men’s hands. But I guess I wanted to and he didn’t at one point. And then we were talking, he said I want someone with more confidence, who’s more confident. And then I brought it up this weekend and he was like that was badly put. I shouldn’t have said that. So (pause) yeah, this weekend we kind of almost had a crisis, like a buildup. [00:10:17.03] Right now I’m a bit more calm about it because I guess I tried to take care of myself. It took a while but yeah, it was Friday or something. I [inaudible] Facebook. How many times do I bring up Facebook here or if you’re keeping count but it’s like it really is becoming a source of anxiety, or it can be. So this woman, she’s part of the women’s group that I’m part of, and I’ve known her for a while but she has like a one year old daughter that we all just adore. [00:11:03.12] So she had a birthday and she posted photos on Facebook and everyone from the women’s group was invited but me. So it’s like I was telling myself, I was observing [inaudible] I should be fine with this. I’m going to be a bigger person. I’m going to be fine. I’m not going to freak out and all. But that didn’t last very long so and then because she’s friends with this other girl that I kind of yelled at at that party and then she yelled back at me. So I was like maybe that’s the thing. Maybe they she had to make a choice. Maybe I wasn’t nicer in the past. Maybe I’m too down or whatever. [00:12:01.19] Like last time, maybe, when she invited me, maybe I wasn’t as cheerful or who knows. And I was rationalizing it to the extent that we’re part of a group and we come together and talk politics, but that doesn’t mean that all of us will actually like each other. But I don’t know, it just kind of snowballed a little bit. I her husband is a journalist and he’s very he’s been very supportive. He’s always asking me about my writing every time we meet, and he’s very supportive. He’s like yeah, let me interview you, [inaudible] should create a buzz and all of that. So I was really afraid that if suddenly I was thinking, oh my gosh, everyone is talking bad about me in my community. Maybe it’s because I’ve left Chris; maybe it’s because this woman has told everyone that I’m dating Nelson [ph] because Nelson [ph] is her friend. [00:13:02.14] That’s how I met him. Maybe everyone is really talking shit about me. So that whole thing just made me a little panicky on Friday. So I was yeah, I was a little on the edge. And then I had and then I met my one of my writer friends who’s [inaudible] a large magazine and we had some sangria, a lot of sangria. And then on Saturday, yeah, and then I was upset already because Nelson [ph] had not called the whole week. I was like wait a second, I go to Ohio and we’re all we’re supposed to be moving forward and all that. Like he just doesn’t call and all that. [00:14:00.06] So Saturday I was at his place and he had gone to pick up some friend and then we were going to go to another friend’s place. And I was watching a movie on his iPad and then I just kind of looked into his e-mail and I noticed that he was e-mailing this woman about meeting up some [inaudible] with her. So then that just kind of made me panic even more. And I saw the e-mail exchange between him and this friend from the women’s group. She was like yeah, she can be very volatile so I don’t know if I can meet her one on one. This isn’t the first time she’s lost her temper. It’s happened in the women’s group also once. She needs to work on herself and blah, blah, blah. [00:15:02.26] So all of this at that moment was just like really, really freaking me out. And she was like yeah, I told you, Nelson, [ph] to be from day one I said be careful with this situation. And I think he said something like yeah, we’ll wait and see what happens with this, but no matter what, our friendship is strong. So I was like in my head I was like this whole friggin’ community that I pride myself on is turning on me. People are talking amongst themselves about me and this guy is just using me for sex and he’s he can’t let go of me because I’m ready to sleep with him and he that’s the only area that he lacks in because he’s very confident otherwise. [00:16:03.19] He’s told me this: I appear to be very confident but I’m so I’m not sure of myself when it comes to this. And his ex-girlfriend left him because of this reason. She said they were incompatible and all that. So she must’ve really hurt him by doing that. So I’m thinking he’s in Ohio, he’s going to {inaudible] places with these really confident women who are CEOs or managers or directors of corporations, and that’s the sort of person he’s going to marry but he’s just going to fool around and have fun with me. And again, that whole thing was just building up in my head. I’m so poor, my mom is so poor, and I have to pay her rent and la, la, la. And I’m just being used and [inaudible] victim’s [ph] [inaudible] and this is kicking in, kicking in. And I was totally panicky once I saw those e-mails. [00:17:13.06] And then so my stomach was upset. And then we went over to his Nelson’s [ph] other friend’s place and I had three drinks and then I started throwing up. I had the worst my worst hangover ever, like my heart was beating so fast and my head was spinning until 12 in the afternoon. So I was like I have to kind of take a step back and figure out my center. Because I don’t I the last time I had a hangover was in 2012 when I was involved with Victor [ph]and I just completely lost myself. [00:18:12.12] So I was like this is happening again and I don’t want to go back to that. So since yesterday I’ve just been [inaudible] since yesterday but and yesterday I was also meeting friends and stuff. All of who are guys by the way. I have no I have I need to work on making having women friends, but I think they’ll have to be not coming from my community because I’ve realized that my community’s just full of judgmental people and I just cannot work around that. [00:19:01.23] I don’t know how to. If I fear what their opinion of me, how can I be myself around them. If I’m not myself then what’s the point of trying to be friends. Because I’ve tried. I’ve tried to be different, but I think I can’t be. Also I feel like I just have to really take a step back from Nelson [ph] and really give up trying to understand, wondering what he thinks about me. And because what does it matter. It doesn’t really matter because what matters is what I think and what I am trying to do. I’m trying to establish myself and take care of my mom. [00:20:10.19] I feel like that’s my core and I should build on that instead of chucking it away, destroying it. Even my mom, because she’s a source of distress, but how do I change that. I was talking to another friend and he was like you should always remember that your mom’s always going to be in your life and you will have to take care of that, and you shouldn’t think of that as a burden. You should think of that as a blessing. And I was like wow, that’s completely radical thinking. That’s like you changing this room around. It’s completely 180 degrees change. But it’s not impossible. It’s I could I remember feeling that way, feeling grateful for being needed. [00:21:03.03] So I’m working on that. Last week, all last week, I was helping her with her thesis. I was a little upset because I have my own work and I didn’t do it, and that really makes me very stressed out. But I’m trying not to think of helping her as being a drain on my time.

THERAPIST: The way you described the last several days it sounds like you’re almost sort of stumbling into things with no sort of I mean now you’re reflecting and thinking about it, but it’s sort of like you weren’t thinking. You were just sort of stumbling. And I don’t know what happens at those times where somehow thinking goes out the window or I don’t know, or if you have thoughts about that.

CLIENT: No it does go out the window. It does. [00:22:01.27] Where do I start? I don’t know. Stumbling is exactly what I’ve been doing, stumbling back from Ohio to Chris’s place, stumbling into his arms whenever I’m upset or sad about Nelson [ph] [inaudible]. Not everything is stumbling. Helping out my mom, that doesn’t feel like stumbling for some reason, right? Does it feel like stumbling to you?

THERAPIST: I can’t say what it feels like.

CLIENT: Yeah, no, but you wouldn’t use stumbling for that, right?

THERAPIST: No, not necessarily.

CLIENT: That seems like the right thing to do, like an investment and caring. That’s more active. [00:23:01.18] It’s not a passive thing. At some point it becomes passive and I’m but that’s getting way too deep into details. But yeah, I feel like those few days I was [inaudible] I could’ve managed my time a little better, like squeezed out a couple of hours here, a couple of hours there, so I could have done my own work a little bit. That maybe I was just being lax at times because of holidays and stuff. But I starting today and I was actually at my home working. I walked from there to here giving myself talks [inaudible] But yeah, I just with Nelson [ph] I feel like I’m stumbling, and I don’t want that. So I want to kind of rein in on the emotions and not I think of him and I just start panicking like [ph] now, just thinking of all of that that I was thinking of Saturday night [inaudible] him talking about me to that girl. Then I’m like why am I scared, it’s not my concern. Why do I give a fuck about what they think. And I really want to get to that point where I can just look at their faces and say, you don’t matter to me. Or I don’t care what you think about me. You have zilch effect on me. That is the goal but I’m very far away from that right now. So how do I get there? The only way I can get there is working on myself and achieving my dreams. [00:25:04.19] I don’t know why or how but it’s become she’s become this monster in my head now.

THERAPIST: This woman that Nelson [ph] just e-mailed.

CLIENT: Yeah, he’s friends with.

THERAPIST: I’m sorry?

CLIENT: No, he’s the woman through whom I met Nelson. [ph]

THERAPIST: Oh, okay, that person. Because you had mentioned someone else you thought he was e-mailing.

CLIENT: Oh yeah, I don’t know who she is. (pause) I maybe it’s like some device in my head that just makes people into monsters. [00:26:06.24] I give them way too much importance than they actually need or deserve or rightfully should have. It’s like she’s the equivalent of the [inaudible] almost, right? Has some kind of power over me. So what’s the friggin’ reason? I cannot figure out. She the [inaudible] she knows a lot of powerful people in academia. I mean that would not have been directly helpful to me but she did introduce me to people at parties and stuff. [00:27:08.16] But at that point I was like okay, what do I do with this. I have no idea how to make [inaudible] this contact or that contact. I was blissfully unaware, which was nice. Yeah, what happens to me. Why do I turn some people into monsters? Do you have an idea? I don’t.

THERAPIST: Well all of they’ve become monsters because they kind of turn into all the bad feelings that you have about you and them in [inaudible] The bad feelings that you have about the attitudes they’re expressing to you and the bad feelings you have about them kind of morph into this monster. [00:28:09.22]

CLIENT: What about [inaudible]

THERAPIST: Angry at what they’re saying. Sort of shame about yourself about what they’re saying.

CLIENT: Shame. Why shame? Why am I ashamed? It is shame, but why? So I’m not confident, so I am volatile. Why is that so fucking shameful? I am totally [inaudible] myself. Why? Why do I feel such anxiety, such profound shame reading those words. [00:29:06.10] Why that panic. It’s like and I only hurt myself. I didn’t maybe other times I’ve had panic attacks I’ve hurt others, and maybe I would’ve hurt others except that there was no one to hurt at that time. It was just myself so I just took the hit. But why is that such cause for shame? (pause) Yeah, I cannot figure it out. [00:30:02.20] What is shame? [inaudible] profound [inaudible] reflexive kind of an emotion. (pause) Is it when someone makes you feel like you did something wrong?

THERAPIST: Maybe, but I was thinking about this. There’s shame and there’s guilt. And guilt is more about what you did, like you feel guilty. Shame seems so much more integral to who you are as a person, like you’re bad.

CLIENT: Or not good enough. [00:31:07.12] Because I was thinking those words that she wrote. Why do they cause me to feel such shame and hurt and anger. Because I thought they were coming from a point of judgment and hate. What if they were coming from a point of concern? I mean maybe that’s not but it would help me personally a lot to think of that way thinking that way. What if she totally loves me and she’s saying no, you’re volatile and I don’t want to talk to you right now when you’re volatile. While she’s like holding my hand. Why can’t I imagine that scenario. I’d feel a lot better about those words if I thought that that’s the point where they came from. I’d be like okay, okay, I will work on myself or whatever, something else. [00:32:06.29] But that’s beside the point. Yeah, so going back to shame means something that’s about who I am, is that like yes, but people can change. So it’s not like who I am is steady all the time. It’s in flux, right? (pause) It’s also the way people put things I think. I don’t know. [00:35:02.24] I think Auranu [ph] tried to shame me but I just, for some reason, I was not shamed by him. I think this is completely inaccurate [inaudible] But he would be telling me your behavior is completely immature. You’re childish and this and that. But I would just look at him and go what are we talking about? I don’t know why, maybe because I was so attracted to him or head over heels, just and he’d try and hurt, like shame me I feel. Our last communication [inaudible] trying hard because he said stuff like if you’d only I don’t even think of you as a human being when you act that way, when you throw a tantrum and this and that. [00:36:12.29] And I was just like what are you saying? I don’t see it, at that point. So but those words were said to shame me, right?

THERAPIST: Yeah. [inaudible] thing to say to someone. Shame on him for saying that to somebody.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It’s a terrible thing to say to somebody.

CLIENT: Yeah, but it had no effect on me. That’s what I’m trying to say. Like why? (pause) I don’t know. I just wanted to be with him so badly I just was like I don’t hear what you’re saying. [00:37:07.07] Yeah, I totally did not take that. Maybe I did, but I feel like I didn’t. And then the thing that that woman said in her e-mail also was definitely there to shame me bigtime. You are this, you’re a con artist. That I definitely took to heart. And this woman, what she’s saying is, again, like I could think of it as coming from a place of support. But she’s volatile and I don’t want to see her one on one. [00:38:08.03] That’s what she said. So that’s maybe not said too much to shame me. I don’t know. Is it?

THERAPIST: Well it wasn’t said to you. It wasn’t said to shame you simply because partly because it wasn’t said to you.

CLIENT: Yeah, but why does it have that profound effect on me when I think of her saying it to Nelson [ph] and then talking behind my back.

THERAPIST: It’s not flattering. She’s not saying what a great person you are.

CLIENT: Why does that make me panic? (pause) Am I so afraid of losing Nelson [ph] or I don’t think I would be. [00:39:14.02] And why does it make me panic so much when I think of him going out on dates with more confident women? Why? It shouldn’t. I was desperate or very curious to ask him but I held my tongue. Like what do you do on these dates? What do these women say? What do they look like? How is your interaction? I wish there was a movie I could watch about you guys.

THERAPIST: It sounds like you feel you’re not one of those women he goes on dates with.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, but I want to kind of cure myself of this desire to compare myself with them. [00:40:10.02] The only way [inaudible] is to compare maybe and be like okay, picture someone like that next to me. I might look far more shabby because my clothes might not be so nice but what the hell is the content of their thought and their speech that I feel I cannot match? Sure, that would change a lot of monetary success and the fact that my [ph] maybe I wouldn’t. [inaudible] but maybe if I did kind of put all my effort into it I would. Maybe if I came from a better family I would’ve. But why go down that route of thinking anyway. Why feel so embarrassed and ashamed next to them? [00:41:09.15] Because I want to [inaudible] embrace [inaudible] first of all, no [inaudible] embrace that and fix it. Yeah, my apartment is very dirty because my roommates are filthy. There’s no better way of describing it. But I can clean it. It’s not my mess but if I have to stay there I have to clean it. And I can do it. Instead of worrying about other people I could fix my own mess instead of running away from things. I could spend time with my mom and clean her apartment. And if people shame me then I don’t need to hang out with such people. [00:42:15.12] I mean I understand that this woman didn’t say those words to me so they’re not they don’t shame me, but if I feel weird about her talking to Nelson [ph] I don’t have to see her. In fact I’m kind of thinking of leaving the women’s group because I just cannot manage my expectations. I feel like I see them so often and I want to get to know them personally, but if they don’t think that they can cut me and my temper any slack then and besides, the group is there to make to help us support each other. [00:43:10.01] I don’t think that’s happening. I mean I know I need to work on my temper but I feel like I have other I have had interactions with other people where that has not been a problem that much. With my editor friend, she’s amazing, and yet can be scary. But I’ve yelled at her for various things but I’ve been like and she’s like standing there looking at me like this and I’m like look, I love you but you’re why did you do this. I’m very mad at you for doing this. But we get over that because she’s mature enough. So I want people like that in my life. [00:44:01.12] I know that not everyone can be that way. People are mostly sensitive and you need to work on your friendship to get there but and I’ve only known her for a few months. I see her once a week in classes and such. I know I’m going to I’m defending my behavior here a little bit but it’s like also trying to figure out how much of myself do I want to change and how much of myself I want to keep.

THERAPIST: We need to stop. I’ll see you tomorrow at 11:50.

CLIENT: 11:50, okay. Thank you.

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