TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in.

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you.

CLIENT: Did you have a good holiday?

THERAPIST: I did thank you.

CLIENT: I’m still not used to this [inaudible] arrangement. (pause) I’ve been staying at my place mostly. I guess I’m not happy but peaceful about that. I don’t know how to describe it, but it feels peaceful, like I have a place to go to. [00:04:03.04] It’s dirty and I’ve cleaned it. I cleaned other people’s shit quickly, but it’s fine. It’s okay. I’m not going to make a big deal out of it. But it feels I have somewhat of a little point. It doesn’t feel centered yet but I think the more time I spend on it the more it will feel like a center. It’s like I think of it and it calms me. I mean I can go back there and I can be by myself and I can shut the door and I can light my candle and I can make a cup of tea and look at my books. [00:05:03.15] I may not open and read them but I can look at them. I haven’t been to Chris’s place in a long time. Well, probably a week, two weeks. Mostly I’m thinking of Nelson. [ph] And another friend of mine who was applying to a PhD program and I’ve been helping him every day. And I just I haven’t thought about this much but he has a masters in creative writing. Now he’s [inaudible] PhD and I’m like and everyone’s like no, [inaudible] MA first because it’s a big switch. He’s like no, I already have an MA. I’m going for a PhD. And then he’s like why don’t you apply to one. You should have. What else does your you have three masters and what is this. And I just felt very this is a symbol of my life, or not my life but the way that I feel about myself. I feel like I’m stuck at that level of education, a masters. I don’t believe in myself and that I have what it takes to do a PhD. [00:07:02.25] But also I feel like I’m not ready right now. Maybe next year. But that really until now I feel like that really wasn’t the dichotomy in my head, that I [inaudible] person. I have small capabilities. PhD people are robust and intellectual and hard working. People like Chris get a PhD. His friends, they have PhDs. Who am I to even think that I can try.

THERAPIST: Why do you want a PhD?

CLIENT: No it’s just like I’m just thinking. Because I don’t he wants a PhD for teaching, I guess, and he’s like why do you keep wanting one masters after another. Go for a PhD. So we’re just thinking in terms of capitalizing on the education we have if we want to be in the field of education. [00:08:07.06]

THERAPIST: But you want to write.

CLIENT: Mm-hm. Yeah, I do. But that’ll he wants to write, too, but a PhD in teaching is going to be his fallback. I do not know what my fallback is. Yeah, I mean I was ready to defend myself. I was like no, I want to write. I’m confident in that. I don’t have a fallback right now, and that’s okay. This year and the past couple years I’ve been focusing on one project, and I want to get it done and then think about other stuff. But I do feel confident. I mean I believe in what I’m saying to him. [00:09:02.23] But then sometimes it does make me nervous and [inaudible] Maybe because I’m scared to apply for PhDs. But me helping him is kind of helping me to think about making me think I can do it too.

THERAPIST: Why not get a medical degree?

CLIENT: No, it’s not about just getting degrees, it’s more about feeling confident.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I understand, but then you start translating it into sort of categories that don’t necessarily make a lot of sense for you.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: You want to write, you [inaudible] PhD to write a disserta I mean you won’t be able to do your writing. You might as well just get get a medical degree then. [00:10:05.08] I mean just go get a go to law school. Why aren’t you going to law school? Look at all these successful lawyers. You’re not going to law school.

CLIENT: Yeah, I do beat myself up about that. Yesterday someone was talking about getting their finance PhD and now they’re working at with the FCC. [ph] I’m like wow, that’s so smart. I feel so dumb. I’m wasting my life. And then it’s just like I’m going to have to face such people in the room, obviously, that it’s close to hell. [ph] It was I have to work on this and talk to other writers and how they deal with this anxiety, this insecurity.

THERAPIST: I don’t think this has anything to do with writing. [00:11:02.03]

CLIENT: Really? What does it have to do with?

THERAPIST: It has to do with you, how you feel about yourself.

CLIENT: I thought I was working on this.

THERAPIST: You are. I think you are.

CLIENT: Yeah, I’m staying at my place.

THERAPIST: It wasn’t meant as a criticism Cecelia [ph]. I was commenting more on your saying well maybe if I talk to other writers I can get some it sounds like you get some pointers on how you deal with insecurity and that’s why I was saying that I don’t think it has anything to do with being a writer.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) It has to do with how I see myself. [00:12:23.24] (pause) I think I’m working on that. I realize that if I don’t write every day I feel bad, and I try and write every day. And once I do that I have a better image of myself, trying not to trying to be there for other people. [00:13:19.00] That makes me feel useful when I try and do that. I’m trying not to lean on people too much. I don’t know what else to do. I mean (pause) I think I feel so ashamed by my mom. I guess that was one of the things that was bothering me. [00:14:05.12] But you know what you said earlier, that instead of me thinking oh, she’s working on [inaudible] so she’s just lazy, I have to [inaudible] oh God or lonely or whatever. That’s I’m trying to think more in those terms that yeah, she shouldn’t have her teaching [inaudible] but she didn’t take that [ph]because that was too much work and she just wanted to be like this place is close to her house and she can just walk. [ph]

THERAPIST: Did she ever offer to teach?

CLIENT: Yeah, it wasn’t going to pay very much and it was going to be a lot of work so and she was like no, I have to work on my thesis and all that. So I don’t want to do that. [00:15:02.13] But in January she’ll start teaching so we’ll see.

THERAPIST: Really? She got a job?

CLIENT: Well it’s like student teaching so we don’t know how much it will pay, but all of her coursework has been leading up to this, I think, so (pause) I feel like starting all over, starting a new life. [00:17:24.21] Living with my parents and not seeing Chris and his friends. And hanging out with Nelson [ph] instead. It’s very different. I feel sad and excited at the same time.

THERAPIST: Can you tell me about both? [00:18:03.14]

CLIENT: Sad because I feel like I miss Chris. I feel guilty. And excited because I really like spending time with Nelson. [ph] He’s got a lot of energy and I feel like I have a lot of energy. In some ways, I don’t even think about this that much, but I feel like that’s the kind of relationship that I always wanted but I didn’t really have it until now. But now I feel like it’s too late.

THERAPIST: Too late for what?

CLIENT: I feel like this should have happened in my 20s, early 20s, so I could’ve got it out of my system and [inaudible] It’s like Chris was is beautiful, like his thoughts and the fact that he wants to change the world, his ideals and his ability to be to empathize. [00:19:18.20] He’s just got a very beautiful heart. And I miss that. And I was the one who could see it and appreciate it and bring it out more and more. Like talking to him you wouldn’t necessarily think that. I mean you would respect him but that would be that. But I feel like because I was in a relationship with him I was able to see that soft part of him and bring it out more. And that’s what we shared, things that he saw that I, too, found beautiful, the way that he could empathize with people who don’t have enough or so I feel like his life has a higher purpose and I kind of oriented my life towards that, that I, too, shall have a higher purpose. I felt lofty and good about it until I fell, until things went wrong, until I was like this is not happening, he’s got his life all figured out and I don’t. I have [inaudible] he has everything and I don’t. It just got destructive and I [inaudible] relationships. [00:21:07.07] But I mean I feel like that’s the matter [ph] I’m taking. But I could also take another matter [ph] that would be. That it works mutually not working out, like he’s done a few things, I’ve done a few things, but I just take all the blame, I feel. I don’t know if that’s accurate or whatever but that’s how I feel. I mean I feel like I’m happier with Nelson, [ph] but I’m like that’s just so shallow. It’s not that shallow but I feel like in comparison. [00:22:03.29]

THERAPIST: I’m not sure I understand the shallow part.

CLIENT: Well, mostly just like physical and talking about feelings and emotions and people and life and other things. But I guess it’s not that shallow. No, it’s not that shallow. It’s just that it’s not Chris. I feel like I’m realizing now how much I love him. But it’s like I don’t know that I can do anything about it. I feel like I [inaudible] now at least. (pause) But I feel calm because I’m not running back and forth, so that’s nice. [00:23:24.06] Well that’s only because Nelson [ph] is in town and so this is where it takes [inaudible] I can be seeing more of Chris [inaudible] staying over at his place. (yawn) I don’t know. We’ll find out.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like you’re seeing more less of Chris just because Nelson [ph] is around more?

CLIENT: (pause) I mean there’s beauty in everyone and you see it but what do you do with it? And it changes so it’s dynamic. I mean it’s like I’m looking at two paintings and they’re both differently beautiful. Depending on who you ask they would say one is more beautiful than the other. Which one do you love more? Which one do you take home? So I don’t know. I feel like I’m ignoring my own the [inaudible] painting that I am or I’m making. [00:27:02.11] So I feel like I cannot answer that question until I look at my own stuff, myself, and work on myself first.

THERAPIST: Why do you think you’re looking at the other paintings before yourself?

CLIENT: It’s easier. It’s just the way that our bodies are structured. You can’t really look at yourself. Even like these holidays I had grand plans of just working on my book and not doing anything else, but then my friend is like no, [inaudible] help me. So I have to see him every day and...

THERAPIST: Why do you have to see him? I don’t understand.

CLIENT: Well because we’re working on his application. His English is not that good. [00:28:02.11] His typing’s kind of slow. So I’m ending up doing a lot of stuff for him.

THERAPIST: Well why do you have to?

CLIENT: I don’t know, just because.

THERAPIST: You have your own things you need to do.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So why do you think?

CLIENT: I don’t know. I was going to try to set boundaries. I’m like okay, we’ll meet at three but not before so I can [inaudible] a few hours to myself. But he just decided that applications are due Wednesday.

THERAPIST: What are you getting in return?

CLIENT: [inaudible]

THERAPIST: He’s not paying you?

CLIENT: Well I don’t know. He might, but I don’t really care about money. [00:29:03.28] I mean I’m not really looking to get paid.

THERAPIST: I see. I guess I’m not clear why you’re doing all this work.

CLIENT: I mean I guess I want a friend. I want people to lean on me, depend on me. It makes me feel useful.

THERAPIST: I was thinking you’re sounding like your mother.

CLIENT: How?

THERAPIST: I mean that he would ask you to do all this work for him for no particular exchange, or just sort of for your own to sacrifice your own time. [00:30:11.17] And then when you started talking about how you hope he’ll feel toward you and it really sounded like your mother.

CLIENT: How she hopes that I feel that for her?

THERAPIST: No, that you want her to feel that way, that you need to feel needed and feel like you have a place. That’s how you’ve spoken about her, about how you want to feel with her.

CLIENT: It gives my days some structure and yeah, I do have this need to feel needed, wanted. [00:31:04.11] I don’t know if that makes me emotionally weak or whatever. Yeah, not so scary that I sound like my mom. It’s okay. She’s not that bad. (pause)

THERAPIST: What are you thinking? [00:32:14.01]

CLIENT: I’m just unhappy about or actually scared that I’m ruining the chance I have. [inaudible]

THERAPIST: Ruining how?

CLIENT: Because I am helping him write his essay and a couple of paragraphs on my own. Like I want him to [inaudible] research question. And [inaudible] feel bad. I don’t know if that sounds important or not. Because that’s not his own except I mean I did force him to talk to [inaudible] (pause) felt the same way about when Chris was helping my mom with her thesis. [00:33:37.01] [inaudible] a lot of work to do [inaudible] when someone else is depending on you you want to do an even better job because you don’t want to let them down or you don’t want them to suffer or fail because of your help.

THERAPIST: Well if you’re worried about that, why not let him do it on his own? [00:34:05.00] If you think he’ll do better on his own.

CLIENT: Well, I don’t think he would. They had some sample essays and they were very strong [inaudible] very generic [inaudible] more specific I think. (pause) And you know I’m getting his friendship in return. [00:35:05.15] He’s like yeah, you’re my best friend.

THERAPIST: Is it a friendship you could only get by doing something for him?

CLIENT: I don’t know. I mean that’s how it started. I was helping him last year with his thesis. So he got an A on his thesis. So I don’t know, I guess our relationship is based on that.

THERAPIST: It sounds like buying a friend.

CLIENT: I feel like I’m not very lucky in that regard so...

THERAPIST: Friends?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You don’t feel like you have any friends?

CLIENT: I just feel that way a lot. I mean I know I do but then they don’t [inaudible] (pause) But I don’t feel like I have a knack of just making [ph] friends for friends. [00:36:28.25] [inaudible] It really shakes my confidence when people don’t invite me or don’t respond to an e-mail or whatever, or come to me. I was hanging out with this one girl, I’ve known her for a while, and a few weeks ago I went over to her place for brunch. And we were both like yeah, this is so much fun. [00:37:06.26] You and I are kind of struggling with the same things, we should encourage each other, hang out. But yeah, let’s get done with school work and then we’ll as soon as we’re done we’ll meet. So even as I was finishing my final [ph] papers I was like e-mailing her, yeah, so I’ll be done in a couple of days, let’s hang. And then she didn’t respond. [inaudible] responded a little later. [inaudible] okay, when are you leaving for holidays? And then again, no response. And then she’s like oops, I guess I didn’t have any time. Happy New Year. So I was just like yeah, fuck you too. It really, really hurts, really disappointing. But because you can analyze it by saying I wanted something, I was expecting it and I didn’t get it. So it really shakes my confidence too. [00:38:04.28] What the hell is wrong with me. I try so hard. I bend over backwards. I give people all my time and yet I’m just not good enough for them. I can scream [inaudible] (pause) I don’t know how to proceed when [inaudible] I mean yeah, I guess I could be patient or [inaudible] I mean I do think that. They just don’t feel the same way about me or at present they don’t have a need for me like I do for them, to have other friends and la, la, la. They have families. [00:39:03.06] There are all these things I could tell myself and [inaudible] this has nothing to do with me. But then it’s like okay, so what do I do. How do I find people who have a need [ph] for me. Then they just reach out to me, help me with my thesis.

THERAPIST: And how does that solve that problem?

CLIENT: What problem?

THERAPIST: How does feeling like you that people aren’t interested in you, how does sort of giving someone free labor solve a problem?

CLIENT: I don’t know. I can’t I don’t know what else to do except just learning to live by myself, learning to be alone and at peace with that.

THERAPIST: But you were describing spending every afternoon with this guy so that’s not being alone.

CLIENT: Yeah, but once it’s done, if it’s just a transaction, then you won’t he’ll hang out with his other more fun friends once this is done. [00:40:09.10]

THERAPIST: So then what do you do get out of it?

CLIENT: I’m getting his company until the applications are done. Not that I would delay them or anything, just so I can have more time.

THERAPIST: What do you like about him? What do you like about spending time with him?

CLIENT: He’s just much more positive. He’s older. He’s a writer, too, so we talk about interesting things, psychoanalyze people, talk about culture and literature. So yeah, it gives me a bit more weight when Nelson [ph] I met all his friends and [inaudible] and he’s not met my mom or any of my friends except this guy. [00:41:18.25] So it gives me I’m not just some random person off the street. And this guy’s fun so Nelson [ph] [inaudible] hang out and have fun [inaudible] (pause)

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: I guess I’m going to get to a point where people’s opinions and whether they hang out with me or not doesn’t bother me as much. [00:43:14.06] (pause) I feel like I’m weak [ph] and I’m too frazzled or [inaudible] whatever for people so I really I should have my act together before I enter society. [00:44:33.00]

THERAPIST: What is entering society?

CLIENT: Just interacting with people. Like I almost set up at Thanksgiving an entirely new set of friends and school [ph] people I’d seen maybe once or twice before. Then I feel like I’m the whole time feeling insecure, and then exploding at that girl and being mean to her. [00:45:15.22]

THERAPIST: We need to stop for today. I have you down for tomorrow, and if you could pay the copay for November that would be great.

CLIENT: [inaudible]

THERAPIST: Or you could bring it tomorrow, either way. I just saw I was looking through last month so yeah, bringing it tomorrow, too, is fine.

CLIENT: Okay. So tomorrow at 11.

THERAPIST: 11, right, is that what we had? Was that I don’t know. I can look it up real quick. Yeah, 11.

CLIENT: Okay, thank you.

THERAPIST: Great. I’ll see you then. Okay, thank you. Take care.

END TRANSCRIPT