TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I think it was 80 dollars.

THERAPIST: Right for 8 sessions.

(pause)

THERAPIST: Thank you.

CLIENT: It’s cold.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: The heat at my place is [inaudible] [00:02:00]

(Over 1 min. pause)

[00:03:08]

CLIENT: Thinking about that stuff from yesterday. (pause) Like helping my friends who that you know in the hopes that we will be a friend. Thinking I guess another way of other people do maybe is just like, is just be themselves. I don’t know like. I’m just wondering if why do people want to hang out with certain people. Like my other friends with certain people, and it’s seems like maybe it’s you know. The trick is just be yourself and be like a strong person and people are attracted to that. [00:04:16]

(Sneezes loudly)

CLIENT: So.

CLIENT: I guess I can, I have been that way before, I don’t know. It’s like be nice and be confident and people are going to get to know me and want to be my friend. But I guess I’m insecure if they don’t, and they don’t just want to be my friend I have to do something extra to be, to make them like me or whatever. [00:05:20]

CLIENT: I guess when I’m feeling insecure is when I feel I think this way.

THERAPIST: It seems like a piece of you has been decreed as a certain kind of indebtedness.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that indebtedness feels like that, because it kind of formed.

CLIENT: Yeah. Then I’m feeling like it’s gonna go sour so quickly, and in so many ways like people hate that feeling of indebtedness. I guess I would too. [00:06:00]

CLIENT: I mean it’s like getting to be a little too much, because I have seen [inaudible] like even today I was just like. I threw my phone when I saw him calling me, like oh my god, you know. Like I was like we’ll meet at 12 and get it done, and he’s like no let’s meet at 3.

THERAPIST: Right because one thing that it can create is that kind of resentment.

CLIENT: Yeah. Not having boundaries. [00:07:40]

THERAPIST: And another problem is that people who are willing to take a lot may not feel indebted and they feel entitled.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That’s not true always, but he does seem like he’s taking a lot.

CLIENT: Yeah. No I don’t think he feels entitled. He might feel like hopeless. So. I mean it almost sounds good to be like okay you know what [inaudible] but then he’s like there’s a snow storm coming, and we’ll probably won’t be able next couple days. I’m like fine. And my work is suffering for sure. I haven’t been able to do much myself, and I had grand plans of doing some [inaudible] but I think about it too much, and I just keep telling myself, I’ll catch up, I’ll catch up, I’ll catch up. So none of this stuff is done. [00:08:00]

(1 min 30 sec. pause)

CLIENT: Yeah I just want to [inaudible] and forget about it, you know like I won’t see him for a bit. I don’t know what that means but I want him to think I’m dead and really so tired now. I will feel for him and scared for him and all that. I’m hopeful for him, and want the best for him so now I’m just like please let’s just get this done so I just have to see him this once a bit. And I can see him socially, and you know I’m at that point. Does that mean I don’t want him to feel indebted? [00:10:13]

CLIENT: I don’t know I think I’m (pause) Yeah even with like my Mom [inaudible] and she was like thanking me yesterday, and telling people. Yeah she did a lot, and I was just like, no you did most of the work I just kind of sat with you for a few days and put it all together. And that’s I’m not to [inaudible] I’m just trying to like see it the way that it is. You know she put in months and months of effort. So did all the leg work for the research and all, so. [00:11:02]

CLIENT: So I also go in to see him for a bit either, you know it’s just late. Just want to retreat within myself and focus on my own self. Like time when there’s no need [inaudible]

THERAPIST: And that’s your there’s actually your [inaudible] now? [00:11:30]

CLIENT: Yeah it’s like below 50.

THERAPIST: Does it not work or did they not turn it on?

CLIENT: I have no idea like last night it was below 50 and this morning I was like fine I will go to a café. Gonna have to figure out where I will be during the next couple of days if there’s gonna be no heat obviously. [00:12:06]

CLIENT: Yeah I mean like I think [inaudible] or I thought about this from my own but I just see that image that you would like of people who have friends who are you know just friends. For the sake of being friends and the reason why these people attract other people as friends is because they have confidence and they are strong, and they are function so. You know? That’s why people have. I mean to get at that place, and not to like recruit friends from a place of insecurity, and I mean I’m like, okay I just have to bend over backwards and maybe someone will come by and be my friend. [00:13:05]

CLIENT: It shouldn’t from a place to a bad place, or start helping people because I feel if I don’t then they won’t be my friend, you know. (pause) some like anxiety of his. So [inaudible] is also around the holidays it’s just like it gets so much, so confusing. I wanted my mom to invite him for tea, and before that I was like you have to clean up your place really well before we can do that. When there’s so much like old furniture there, and just like a mess, but I don’t think we can hire new furniture just for the sake of the tea. But she did invite a few of my friends last night and Chris so I was like if you hadn’t invited him I could have invited [inaudible], but so I went to sleep struggling with that. It’s weird. So I was mad that I don’t have any time to spend with one, so I was thinking about that, and like what can I do? You know I have my own work and then Clive comes over, my friend, comes over. What do I do? So last night I didn’t [inaudible] and went to sleep like. And then I’m like you know when he’s in Ohio and has a job, he does not even call. You know I’m like he does not call for the whole week and then on Thursday or Friday when he is coming back he’s like I’m gonna be back, let’s hang out. I feel weird about that, I’m like why can’t I do the same to you, you know? If I do the same to you you are like you’re ignoring me. Then he’s like I guess I’m more needy than you. When he’s not here I miss him, but you know I’m able to do more work. I’m sad but. [00:16:00]

CLIENT: At least more productive. [inaudible] can be productive while he’s here, it’s not the case with. I just wondering what I’m doing? Am I making like the worst mistake of my life you know. Giving up on [inaudible] like that whole life we built together and all those years that we invested in each other and how we know each other so well. And we have similar likes and dislikes. And yeah we want pretty much the same things, I don’t know about that. I feel like I do, but then you know the whole embarrassment, like social embarrassment especially like telling his parents that it didn’t work out, and disappointing them. [00:17:06]

CLIENT: So I just feel like so confused and why can’t I make it work with him? Should I try again? Should I break up with [inaudible] and back to him. This is very, it’s very confusing. Then I’m like maybe this confusion will just [inaudible] itself out. So maybe I feel that I can do it now. [00:18:00](1 min 30 sec. pause)

[00:19:33]

CLIENT: I feel like I don’t need any more to worry about with these two people, these guys, and I just want to be with myself. And be as self-sufficient as I can. But then I think in terms of obligation a lot. You know like yesterday I felt the whole time I was at my Mom’s place hanging out with my friends and Chris I was thinking [inaudible] would make being a student but he didn’t respond back. [00:20:15]

CLIENT: I felt guilty for not hanging out with him, and today like I mean I said yeah tomorrow I will spend with you, but then I realized that I even today I don’t know if that will happen because I have to help my friend again. So I just feel kind of, I feel in terms of obligation a lot. I feel like I’m obligated to spend time with Nelson (sp), but I’m obligated to worry about Chris and see him, you know? I mean I want too. There’s a part of me that wants to see them, just because you know whatever I get from them, but then there’s like this awful like heavy and a guilty feeling about, I mean I guess that makes me feel like [inaudible] lies to them. [00:21:18]

CLIENT: And that kind of makes me panic and make mistakes, and fills me with [inaudible] and makes me feel, makes me judge them I think. Then I’m like oh this guy is not right for me because he just does not get it that I need to work or that I have to help out my friend, and you know all that. (pause)

CLIENT: I guess I don’t know exactly how to deal with that feeling of feeling obligated. Mostly if I feel obligated, and you make me feel obligated I will just do it, you know? And then I will carry resentment.

THERAPIST: I was gonna say but not necessarily happily.

CLIENT: No, not at all actually. [00:23:00] (20 sec. pause)

THERAPIST: I was thinking about these inserted versions or iterations of your relationship with your mom.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: In so many different ways. I mean your mom can make hints to the extent to which she felt obligated. She sort of got through caught in the web of obligations. Being forced to marry your father, and then having you, and sort of the obligations and sort of the resentment. And the creation of indebtedness that she tried to create, she did create. Not intentionally but you know to you look what I sacrificed for you, and look what you owe me. And then the way in which it gets replayed in your life. It’s kind of like a repetition, which certainly not all of your relationship with your mom, but it’s an important feature of it.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:24:00]

CLIENT: So you mean my other relations are like that?

THERAPIST: Well there seem like features of that, and even in your relationship with Chris, you supporting him for a time then feeling like you want him to take care of you that he sort of owns you, and they are features of it.

CLIENT: I don’t feel like that now.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah it does not seem like that. [inaudible] that’s for sure.

CLIENT: I mean I wanted to push him away if anything, but then for a little bit I was back with him, and kind of liking that he was supporting me.

THERAPIST: Well these don’t, I don’t think this defines all of your relationships but I do think that it is a feature of it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Which is why it was nice to kind of go out with Nelson because there is no history there’s no such like feature make obligations don’t feature. Until now. So now I’m like wait why is this nice, fun relationship getting entangled or becoming messy, you know? [00:25:14]

(pause)

CLIENT: I don’t know what to do except just like call him and tell him I cannot see him [inaudible]. (pause)

[00:26:30]

CLIENT: I mean I’m trying to get away from my mom’s life matters where it feels like, I mean practically speaking if she is like I need your help I kind of don’t I try not to drift into it, you know? Maybe this time I did a little bit, but I feel like the strategy should be looking at what I need to get done and then listening if I have time to help her, or even asking her questions of ok what do you need help with? Can you ask someone else? Or you know like think of more resources than just myself. [00:27:24]

CLIENT: I mean I do what she wants. I’m the one that takes care of like being burdened by that matter overall. Just being conscious of it will help me so. I try. (pause) I guess every time I help someone, or decide to help someone I should really lay down the boundaries and just keep telling myself you know watch out. Don’t think that they are obligated to you now, you know? I guess stop myself before I feel, before I start to feel resentment. [00:28:32] (pause)

THERAPIST: What speaks to the motivation to helping to begin with?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, I think part of the, well I mean as you were saying part of the motivation is securing a friend.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You’re not sure if you could secure a friend otherwise, and then create related to the creating a sense of indebtedness. I also think you want to help people.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So it’s not like it’s only that, but

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: The extent to which you go and then you feel like you’re sacrificing things that are important to you.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:29:14] (pause) I mean I say no often enough. I mean I’m not very charitable with my money just because I don’t have much of it. But you know I don’t

THERAPIST: Except with your mother historically.

CLIENT: Yeah, well. There I’m kind of doing this.

THERAPIST: Well that’s not true actually.

CLIENT: Well it’s easier just to write a check, that’s all.

THERAPIST: That’s different than saying there’s nothing you could do about it.

CLIENT: Yeah, that’s a very important [inaudible] [00:30:06] (25 sec. pause)

CLIENT: I mean I just I wonder if like feeling like I’m sacrificing. Feeling like a martyr is like a way for me to like I don’t know avoid some things. It’s like a cop out maybe? I don’t know. [00:31:00]

THERAPIST: What comes to mind about what you’ve been avoiding?

CLIENT: Like I don’t know for not succeeding or something else like I cannot think of concrete examples. But like you know it’s my writing or whatever, I feel like I used Chris and my mom as an excuse earlier. Just to say oh I can’t really take a year off and write because I have obligations, and I have to sacrifice my own life for my mom you know. If I didn’t do that I would just be like nope I don’t have. I don’t have to sacrifice, I don’t have to or even just this matter I could have said. I’m getting confused here, but I guess bad [inaudible] comes after the fact that I have sacrificed. Or done something and then I’m calling it sacrifice after its done, because then it’s like, yeah I didn’t succeed that year because I did that you know, because I sacrificed. [00:32:20]

CLIENT: I could instead say no. Not just that we needed the money but I was too scared that year to take such a big leap to take such a big decision, and I wanted to make money. Instead of saying I sacrificed, you know?

THERAPIST: Taking more ownership for it.

CLIENT: Yeah! (pause) So by putting the blame on others because (pause) I don’t know like sitting alone at my desk writing is hard. Some days it’s hard and other days it’s not so hard. Some days are hard and I’m like oh yeah might as well let my friend come over and help him. So that I shouldn’t go back and say I didn’t write because of you today. [00:33:30] (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah I’m working on getting friends just by being myself, or you know not offering any help in return. Because I see and people just don’t do it you know like. I’m trying to be helpful and offered help and then be like she is going to call me back. It’s like okay. (20 sec. pause)

[00:34:30]

CLIENT: I mean people run away from obligations. I run away from obligations before anyone else does. So it makes me feel obligating and like no!

THERAPIST: You feel trapped by them.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because they don’t feel voluntary. They don’t feel like they’ve taken on these obligations voluntarily, and they feel imposed and trapped.

CLIENT: Yeah. What do I do about that, (laughing) feeling? [00:35:04]

(pause)

CLIENT: Face it and try to understand it.

(2 min. pause)

[00:37:13]

CLIENT: Well I guess just think more carefully about like my relationship with people. Like how much of it is I think genuine affection and interest and love, and how much of it is you feel obligated, you know? I feel like that kind of leads to me to trouble a lot. Is that what you were saying that it is like at the core of a lot of my relations because of my relations with my mom and stuff?

THERAPIST: Yeah I don’t know if it’s at the core, because I think there are other things too.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean the core of your relationship with Chris is not just that. [00:38:00]

THERAPIST: That is an important feature of it.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess the core is like me leaning on him for structure, and stuff. Are we done?

THERAPIST: No we still have 6, 7 minutes.

CLIENT: Yeah I wonder like sometimes like seeing him I just feel obligated to feel love for him you know? (giggles) Instead of genuinely feeling affection or stuff. [00:39:00]

(20 sec. pause)

CLIENT: I mean last night was where we just at my mom’s, and he’s not very social so it was surprising to me that he stayed until like 1. We all stayed until 1 just talking, and he was talking to people that I thought he would never really talk to. Because in my head, and again you would be like these are your weird categories, but like in my head

THERAPIST: Don’t say weird! By the way.

CLIENT: Okay (giggling)

THERAPIST: just for clarification, don’t say weird.

CLIENT: I don’t know what you say

THERAPIST: I say arbitrary.

CLIENT: Arbitrary, okay. Or random.

THERAPIST: Or self-imposed. I guess random isn’t quite and arbitrary isn’t quite right either because there’s arbitrary mean that there’s no sort of, it kind of has a random quality. But there is a reason you have those categories. And they are not arbitrary in your eyes. They’re not arbitrary from you vantage point.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Its some objectives that are arbitrary I guess. [00:40:12]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But not weird.

CLIENT: Okay. (chuckles) Well you know like I would think he would never really. He is like [inaudible] he only talks to like, oh you know he said it himself several times, so there’s reason for it that would make. If there’s an interesting thought in your head I will like you or I will listen to you or something like that. So people yesterday, they are my friends. They are not really intellectuals. They are nice, kind, sweet people that I met in the community and they like me. Me. So Chris was talking to them for hours and listening and enjoying myself, and I was very surprised I was like ah! Why do people change or why are they complex? Because I thought he would never do something like this. Why is he doing this? (chuckling) [00:41:10]

CLIENT: And Nelson does like, that’s what Nelson does. Like, so every night that I have helped my friend with an application or every evening we end up going over to Nelson’s place and just hanging out with him. And he is very social, so just talks and like you know makes drinks for people so you know. I feel like that’s what he does. So Chris doing something similar, in his own way of course, you know like confuses me a little bit. I mean he is still not very personable. He is reserved. [00:42:00]

CLIENT: He has like his kind of his energy is very different from Nelson’s. So it’s like quieter and like more pointed. It’s all used up in thinking through things instead of expressing emotion or. So. (pause)

CLIENT: I mean there’s a time I found that attractive of course. It’s not that I don’t, but too much of it and only that over the years kind of made me feel like I was bored with it. Yeah I guess my categories are getting a little messed up. So that kind of scares me. Yeah it’s unsettling. [00:43:00]

THERAPIST: How about reframing it as broader?

CLIENT: Broader?

THERAPIST: Rather than messed up. Thinking broader.

CLIENT: I see. More refined? Because now that I now Chris can be social like I can analyze how in different ways these 2 guys are social you know in different ways. (chuckling)

(pause)

CLIENT: Yeah I think the breakup is helping Chris also. He’s like I have been so social this month than I have ever been in my life. I think that’s a good thing. He’s staying out late, and having a glass of wine and then waking up with a headache. (laughing) [00:44:00]

CLIENT: He does not really drink. (1 min. pause)

THERAPIST: We are going to need to stop for today.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I hope you have a good New Year’s.

CLIENT: Yeah! Happy New Year.

THERAPIST: And to you, and I will see you on Monday. [00:45:14]

CLIENT: Okay. (laughing) Enjoy your New Year’s Eve.

THERAPIST: Thank you. Stay warm. Bye bye.

END TRANSCRIPT