TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi! [00:00:30]

CLIENT: I guess I should hang this outside? It’s all wet!

THERAPIST: It’s up to you. I’m sure there is a (inaudible) outside.

CLIENT: Almost like, everything wet! (ph) (door opens, pause) How are you?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you.

CLIENT: Such a mess! (wiping something up)

[pause 00:01:10 to 00:02:25]

Trying to go over anything from last week. (sighs) (therapist responds) (sighs)

(pause) I guess I was mostly talking about helping my friend with his applications, right? (therapist affirms) Yeah. Uh... (pause) I guess last week, mostly, that’s what I did, and then hung out with sort of (chuckles)... (pause) I feel like this is a very different phase of my life. (chuckles) (therapist responds) It feels very strange. I don’t know what to think about it. [00:03:57]

(pause) (sighs) Like staying at his place and like, spending, you know, so much time with him. In the back of my mind, I’m thinking of Chris and you know, what is he doing at this moment? Is he eating, what is he eating, is he working (chuckles)...? I keep thinking I have to end this with Nelson (ph) and go back to Chris or (chuckles)... Like, constantly felt that conflict, I guess. (sighs)

[pause 00:04:50 to 00:05:12]

Last night, as soon as like, Nelson dropped me off at home, I called Chris (chuckles). He was like, “Do you want to come over and watch TV?” (chuckles) And we had dinner and just talked the whole night. I was crying and crying, just because... (inaudible). Then I was a little calm, a little light, but... it’s just, I feel so like... When I’m panicking, I think, “What have I done?” You know? Like, I didn’t really end things with Chris. I don’t think I’m over him or I don’t know if I want to be over him, I think I love him. You know, I’ve started things with Nelson (ph) and, you know, what do I do? (chuckles) (therapist responds) (pause) Then I just put that aside and think of work and think of things to do, constructive things, you know. [00:06:24]

THERAPIST: What do you think made you call Chris right away, after seeing Nelson?

CLIENT: Well, it was building up. I hadn’t really talked to him in like, twenty days. He said, “It’s been twenty days” (therapist responds) like, since before Christmas. (sighs) So... mostly, it was because Nelson was in town or on break and like, but also because I didn’t, I wanted to stay at my place more, so... (therapist responds)

I’ve been staying alone (ph), but at my place, you know, working there and stuff. So I wanted to do that. But yeah, so it was building up, not seeing him and not talking to him. I don’t know if it’s guilt, or if it’s, if I’m genuinely losing him. I guess it’s both. So then, I just couldn’t take any more. Like, we talked about seeing, watching (inaudible) together, or just watching it. We’re doing that, watching it because, you know, the site crashed or something, but... You know, so that was like, the, the pretext. [00:07:36]

I don’t know, I guess I want to say I missed him, so... (pause) Like, all that, all the things he would say, or you know like, his ability to be so smart (chuckles), or even funny. I missed all that. (pause) I don’t know. I guess I just, I was thinking of (inaudible) ... Is it okay if I put my feet here?

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s like, they’re all wet! (laughs)

THERAPIST: Oh, go ahead. [00:08:18]

CLIENT: Just that, my mom would always tell me that I’m a destructive person and have destructive tendencies. So I was, in that context, I was thinking like, “Why did I destroy, you know, my relationship with Chris? Why didn’t I... You know, why did I do that like, two years ago? Why was I so unhappy?” There was really no concrete reason to be that unhappy. I didn’t like, you know, have a disaster happen to me, you know. I just created it, this disaster thing. I mean, I just went ahead and destroyed like, our little home. I mean, I wasn’t happy in it and I was, it wasn’t like a sweet little home, you know. But I was quite unhappy, so that’s why I destroyed it, but it’s still kind of, feel like that’s what I did. (therapist responds) You know, I don’t know if that narrative is (sighs) accurate or sufficient or helpful or (inaudible) (chuckles). Chris was like, “Don’t blame yourself; you’re doing that again.” And I’m like, “I don’t know how else to think of it.”

[pause 00:09:34 to 00:09:56]

I guess I want to be, to learn how to be happy, by myself, on my own and take as much responsibility of that, so that next time something happens (or even if it doesn’t happen), I can still relate to other people (chuckles). (therapist responds) I don’t know. What do you think?

THERAPIST: You’ve just talked about wanting more responsibility, and then you’re asking me what I think. Is it...?

CLIENT: No, no, no it’s not that! It’s just like, I’m just wondering, because... Is it... I’m a bit confused about like, how much do you... not blame other people, but like... If you have a conflict with someone, if they make, if you want them to change their behavior, how much of that is on you, and how much of that is on them? (therapist responds) And if I find Chris boring, how much (chuckles) of that can I expect to change and how much of that is like, in my own head, in my own experience, my own feeling that I should be able to take care of? You know? [00:11:19]

THERAPIST: That’s a very good question.

CLIENT: I don’t know how to... I guess it depends on, on people to people.

THERAPIST: (pause) You said your mother always said you had a destructive personality. How do you mean?

CLIENT: I don’ t know. I guess I had anger issues, even when I was a child. I’d just like, throw things (chuckles). Yeah, I guess that’s what she meant. Like, spend time just breaking things or, yeah. Instead of building things, or drawing... (therapist responds)

THERAPIST: (pause) It seems to take your behavior out of context. I imagine you were reacting to what was going on around you. [00:12:28]

CLIENT: I was, yeah, (chuckles) subconsciously. I mean consciously.

THERAPIST: I mean, I’m saying it’s a... I’m sorry to interrupt.

CLIENT: Yeah, no. Yeah, consciously.

THERAPIST: I mean, saying it’s a part of your personality is... different than thinking about your behavior as a response to what was going on around you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, she just said tendencies. I guess that’s what she was saying, tendencies.

THERAPIST: Do you think she sees herself that way, too? That she has destructive tendencies?

CLIENT: No, she would say that she tries to be as constructive and creative as possible, which is probably true. She does, actually. (chuckles) She does spend a lot of time making things, just because she has the skills. Like, her mother passed that, all those skills on to her like, stitching and embroidery, you know. I don’t do any of those (chuckles), so... (sighs)

[pause 00:13:29 to 00:14:23]

You don’t think I should judge my breaking away from Chris as... an example of my destructive tendency?

THERAPIST: Is that what it feels like?

CLIENT: It’s (inaudible) thinking about it. (chuckles) Like I said, I don’t know if it’s accurate or helpful, taking the blame, or whatever.

THERAPIST: Well, I mean, the way, one way in which it doesn’t make sense is you weren’t happy with him. (client responds) And so, at least, I mean, I’m not... That sounds more global than I meant it, because, well, but you weren’t. I mean, there were many ways in which you weren’t happy. So to break up something you weren’t happy with doesn’t really fit with “destructiveness.”

CLIENT: Yeah. What is destructiveness?

THERAPIST: (pause) I don’t know. It’s your word! (chuckles)

CLIENT: Yeah. I don’t know, just felt like, maybe, if you destroy something that was built by someone, by you, you know. Undoing this, un-made the sweater (chuckles) you know? [00:15:38]

THERAPIST: I mean, it seems more destructive to be dating people while you’re with him than it is to break up with him. That seems destructive, because what purp , like what good things can come of it? (client affirms) Your...

CLIENT: But now it’s destructive both ways, with us (ph) like... You know, because we both have... (chuckles) What were you going to say?

THERAPIST: Maybe. I mean, I don’t know if feelings can be destructive. I think of behavior as destructive, more than feelings.

CLIENT: Oh... yeah.

THERAPIST: Your feelings are what your feelings are.

CLIENT: But that’s, that’s so, that, yeah. That’s a good point. So that’s what I’m trying to control and... not seeing Chris, like not sleeping with him, is Step One. Step Two is (chuckles) not staying at his place. (therapist responds) So those two I’m trying to take care of. Step Three, like completely shutting off contact is very hard. Now, if I were a stronger person, a true (ph) person, I would do that, but that’s the thing that I’m struggling with, and that’s the thing that I don’t even think isn’t necessary or I can do it, so... [00:16:59]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Which is why it’s not clear why it’s destructive.

CLIENT: What is destructive?

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. It’s not clear why... I mean, you feel like cutting off contact with Chris would be constructive?

CLIENT: I guess.

THERAPIST: I’m not sure how you’re getting there.

CLIENT: I don’t think it was constructive. I guess, so yeah, you said, behavior can be destructive. So, yeah, seeing him would be destructive, yeah. But...

THERAPIST: Because...?

CLIENT: Because he’ll confuse me and keep me in this limbo state. But... yeah. But I feel like I have a need to see him like, yeah. Yeah. (chuckles) (pause) I mean, I didn’t want to see him at all, actually. And then my mom invited him and other people to her place. I was actually like... almost going to say to her, “Don’t invite him!” I don’t know, I, in fact, tried, I texted him and said, “Are you going to go?” He was like, “Yeah, it will be fun!” I was like, “Damn!” (chuckles) [00:18:22]

So then, after I hung out a little, I realized, “Ohhh... you know, like, I miss that!” (chuckles) So... Yeah, it was just like, to give him (ph) anything (inaudible). (pause) I’m... yeah. I’m just concerned I’m not (inaudible). I mean the biggest thing with like, as far as, I mean, intellectual growth or like, I don’t know, I just wonder like, “Do I write better now with him?” (chuckles) (therapist responds) It’s a silly question. I don’t know. My friend says, you know, “We write better when we’re happy,” and that is for sure, because even that was a question that I didn’t have an answer to. Maybe I still don’t, but I feel like I do now. But I don’t think I can write better when I’m sad, in my own like, concrete like, have my own life or something wrong. (chuckles) [00:19:38]

Yeah, sure, I tap into sadness when I’m writing, but that’s not the same. I am myself happy and contented, but I’m like, tapping into an emotion. (therapist responds) And there is like... a clock in front of me and I know that I will tap into that until 5:00. Then I can go and like, party or (chuckles) you know, like have fun. So that makes me like, motivated to work. So that’s, for me is good. But then, you know, there is all this like, anxiety or guilt or maybe even genuine like, affection that kind of takes me back to Chris, like in my head. [00:20:30]

(pause) Watching... I’ve been watching a lot of TV (chuckles) with Nelson. One thing we were watching was this documentary, or he told me about it and (sighs)... It must have been (ph) then, I was telling Chris about it last night. It took him like, two seconds to pronounce judgment on it! He was like, “Oh, this is so reductive!” And I was like, “Damn!” You know? This is, he’s so smart or you know like... Like, “Why don’t I think of that? You know? So then I was like, hypothesizing or extrapolating. Like, “If I end up with Nelson, I will be dumb!” (chuckles) There won’t be this smart person to tell me that, you know, this kind of stuff is reductive or that kind of stuff is brilliant! (chuckles) Very silly. [00:21:37]

THERAPIST: Why did you think he was right?

CLIENT: Because he’s smart! He’s right!

THERAPIST: He’s right about, he knows everything?

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckles) Not everything, I don’t think. But he’s pretty smart! (therapist responds) (pause) I don’t know. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Maybe it’s important for you to think he knows everything.

CLIENT: Yeah, it is. (therapist responds) But why?

THERAPIST: That’s a good question. (client chuckles)

[pause 00:22:09 to 00:22:21]

CLIENT: I don’t know. It’s just like... I’m trying, I mean, I know I’ve made like, a mess, but I don’t want to think about it that way and beat myself up too much, because... you know (chuckles) I guess I just want to take a step back, and maybe even laugh at the situation. I don’t, I don’t do that very often. I beat myself up and I feel bad, so... It’s nice to, to humor myself a little bit? I don’t know like, I actually, genuinely sometimes just feel lucky that... you know, I (chuckles) I have these, you know, two great guys, you know, who care about me, you know. Sure, they’ll be mad as hell (chuckles) if they knew certain things, but... (pause) They kind of do and they kind of don’t need to know certain details. I don’t know. But I just, yeah, like (sighs) since I’m unable to like, have... Like, I don’t have a family or siblings, you know, it’s just, it’s nice to have some people (chuckles) who care, you know? (therapist responds) (pause) Because I care about them, too, I guess, so it’s just like, it’s been reciprocated. I’m lucky that they do. [00:23:49]

Like this whole week, I was, I tried, last week I tried to work as well. I had these grand plans that completely kind of... I didn’t, I wasn’t able to hold up to my plan. Like, pulling like 30%, but still, at least, you know, I came home and you know, sat at my desk for a few hours, and tried. (chuckles) So like, even during the snowstorm like, Nelson would, you know, drop me off or walk me in, and pick me up later. So... you know, I was like, “There is so much snow! I’m just going to stay home. You know, why do you want to dig out your car?” So he was like, “Let me figure that out,” you know? And I was like, “You really want to pick me (chuckles) up later?” He was like, “Yeah, let me figure that out.” So that was, you know like, sure it’s like the manly response and all that, but... [00:24:45]

I guess it was nice, to be like, to be taken care of, you know? (therapist responds) Like (chuckles), this is a little silly of me to think that, but you know like, I wish I were little and had my dad say that, you know? On, you know, on a daily basis, or a weekly, or monthly, or even a yearly (chuckles) basis, you know? (therapist responds) I think that years and years of having that is what makes people strong and, you know, secure. I don’t know if you would agree, but (chuckles)... (therapist responds) And not having that at all, and having something destructive in its place, is obviously... going to make a person crazy. (therapist responds) [00:25:37]

And then he bought me a winter jacket, because he was like... “You need one.” (chuckles) So, I mean, it’s nice to be, you know, taken care of, I guess. (therapist responds) Not, I mean, and I’m not trying to compare or anything, but like, I’m sure Chris would do something like that, in his own mild, own mild ways. He wouldn’t dig out his car! He didn’t step out in the snow for days (chuckles) he said. He’s not like, enterprising in that respect. But he’s, you know, enterprising in soft, in scholarship, so... (therapist responds) And I’m learning to recognize that.

I would just, earlier I would just say, “Oh, he’s boring, he’s just not enterprising, he’s not, he’s low energy,” but... because I am comparing it, I guess I’m able to kind of refine my judgment a bit more and realize that, “No, he spends all of his energy thinking,” you know? It’s not that he’s not energetic, it’s just, it’s cerebral, it’s spent that way. (therapist responds) And other people, other guys, spend it digging out, shoveling snow, you know? (chuckles) (pause) Not that Chris wouldn’t shovel snow. Last year, I think he did. (chuckles) [00:27:13]

I don’t know, I guess I’m more calm when I think of things this way, (therapist responds) when I feel like... lucky and stuff, but... Then, you know, later on I’m like, “But still, I have to resolve. I can’t just have both of them in my life.” (chuckles) (pause) I feel so horrible and guilty when I think of Chris’s mom, and you know like, her expectations of us getting married, and the fact that she still doesn’t know.

THERAPIST: You feel guilty because you feel you led her on?

CLIENT: Yeah... And disappointing her.

[pause 00:28:04 to 00:28:23]

I don’t know. I feel like there is still time, we can still, Chris and I can still get (chuckles) back together and... I just have to figure out how to be happy on my own. I still think that way. Am I deluding myself?

THERAPIST: I don’t know what you mean by “happy on your own.”

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: I don’t know what you mean by “happy on your own.”

CLIENT: I’ll be happy on my own! Like I said like, take more responsibility.

THERAPIST: And so how will you, would you be delu ... I guess I don’t understand “am I deluding myself by thinking I can be happy on my own.”

CLIENT: No, no. By thinking that I’ll get back with him.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see. I wasn’t sure what the “deluding” was.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I don’t know if I’m deluding... (sighs)

THERAPIST: Do you feel scared to think that you know things other people don’t know? [00:29:26]

CLIENT: (pause) What?? (chuckles) Like...?

THERAPIST: Well, I had a couple of thoughts. Like, that you might know things like, you might understand about a T , you might have a perspective on a TV show that Chris just doesn’t know or understand, for example. Or even when you ask me... Well, the reason why I asked it at that moment is like, you asked me questions about your emotional life that I, I don’t have the answers to, but I think you do.

CLIENT: Yeah. And that scares me?

THERAPIST: Well, I was wondering. I was wondering if there is something that is sort of hard to, hard about that.

CLIENT: Talking about me knowing more? (therapist affirms) What, I never thought (ph) about it. [00:30:10]

THERAPIST: Well, because you look to people so much, to sort of be sort of experts or oracles or... (client affirms) And to think of other people as that way, and more of yourself as someone who could have answers.

[pause 00:30:23 to 00:30:41]

Do you see what I’m saying?

CLIENT: I’m thinking. I’ve never... You know, why, I’m like, why would that scare me, that I know more? Wouldn’t that, wouldn’t it better, you know? Yeah, I’m trying to think if that’s the case (chuckles). (pause) What if I’m wrong? Yeah, maybe that’s the scary bit.

THERAPIST: Well, but you could be as wrong as anybody else.

CLIENT: It’s (inaudible) (blocked) Yeah but that’s scary!

THERAPIST: That you could be wrong or that anyone could be wrong? [00:31:14]

CLIENT: Well, me (chuckles) first. Like, yeah, I was watching this documentary and... I got into it because Nelson was like, “This is interesting.” And I was like, “Yeah, yeah; it looks interesting!” And then I was like, watching it and I was not that interested in it, but I didn’t quite know what was wrong until Chris was like, “Yeah, it’s reductive!” He didn’t say reductive, you know, whatever he said like, Yeah. So... I guess he put his finger on the thing that was bothering me, but then I was also like, a little disappointed that he didn’t like it, because... I don’t know. Maybe this is a bad example, but like... (pause) But like yeah, I mean like, (sighs) if you like something and the other person, or everyone else knows that it’s something bad for you, or just generally bad, it’s like, it’s scary. [00:32:34]

THERAPIST: But I don’t know. How would bad be determined? It’s just different people’s opinion, in the end.

CLIENT: Yeah, but... I don’t know. Now I can’t think (chuckles). (pause) I’m just still not comfortable with the idea that different people have different opinions, and that’s fine. It’s not fine. I want to take different people’s opinions and order them, you know, into a hierarchy, evaluate them (chuckles). I don’t know why. (therapist responds) I feel more comfortable when I do that. (therapist responds) Like, I can orient myself (chuckles). This democracy thing doesn’t work for me. [00:33:45]

THERAPIST: Well, you can order them, but they’re ultimately your ordering.

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess that could be one thing that I have to learn, to keep my order to myself, or just know that other people have ordered things differently. (therapist responds) I mean, that is something that I am starting to learn, because I was, you know, completely in my shell until two years ago and, you know, broke out of it to really just, experience new things, and I am. (chuckles) (therapist responds) So... that has been like, you know, being with Nelson first and then now like, Nelson and his friends, you know. I still, I mean, I went in and I (inaudible). But it’s less and less now, and there is more affection now. [00:34:49]

But I always would go in, thinking, you know, these silly people who have so much money or, you know, who make money (because they have decent jobs), but they have no cultural capital or you know, very little cultural capital. I’m just, you know, went in with that judgment and then slowly kind of learned to let that go and appreciate things that they appreciate. (therapist responds) I don’t know if that’s the same thing that you were talking about, different order. (therapist affirms) (sighs)

But my reaction is not to go back to Chris and be like, “You’re just a pompous ass, you know? You’re just like, you’re just all intellect! You just judge people!” I’m not doing that. I’m going back and like, “On what kind of, what’s the reason? I don’t think it’s a reason.” (ph) (chuckles) Kind of opinion that, “Yeah, so I see where you’re coming from, you know, you’ve mostly, you know, your understanding of things is mostly textual and your order of things is like, it stems from this, this, and this aspect of your reading. Whereas other people, they don’t have any of that training. They go by guts, you know? They’re more consumers, and they just are turn on the TV, and you know, watch whatever appeals to them,” (chuckles), you know? [00:36:19]

Yeah, I guess I’m kind of, I guess I, the next step is to realize, to be kind to both these orders. (chuckles) (therapist responds) But instead, something else happens where (which is what happened last night, it was like, oh, you know, it’s a mini example), but there was panic when I realized, “Oh! Chris is right! This is bad!” (chuckles) You know? “What was I thinking?” Then, you know, extrapolating that for, and then be like, “I’m just going to be consistently wrong and stupid, if I don’t end up with Chris!” (chuckles) (therapist responds) You know, that is the panic that is like, really causing me to cling to him, to call him, over like, I did last week, to answer your first question. (chuckles)

[pause 00:37:16 to 00:38:03]

I mean, so I guess there is a lot of panic and guilt associated with my (inaudible) to see him. But I don’t know; maybe it will go away and be replaced by genuine love and affection. (chuckles) I don’t know. And it won’t, if I keep seeing Nelson. (chuckles) I don’t know. (pause) I mean, I feel like, I mean I’d played a kind of game with Nelson, but I’m like, I try to break up or try to like... not half-heartedly, I guess, but then he kind of... connives me into staying with him. Maybe “connives” is not the right word, but it feels pretty conniving (chuckles). (pause) Do we have time left? [00:39:14]

THERAPIST: You have a minute or so. Did you think of something?

CLIENT: Yeah, but it’s like, it’s probably going to take longer. (therapist responds) (pause) Yeah, I mean, so I don’t know if you can answer this question, but I feel like perhaps it would be helpful to think of breaking up with Chris as coming to something constructive. (therapist responds) I mean, I keep thinking that, “Oh, God! I destroyed everything I had and built from scratch!” But then, there is building on that, you know? Rebuilding your life, right? I mean (chuckles)... So... Like, looking at it as something I destroyed, but then, there is, you know like, not wanting to live with my mom, not wanting to live with Chris could be seen as, you know like, needing to grow, and growth is constructive. [00:40:37]

THERAPIST: I never thought... I mean, whether you want to be with Chris or not is one issue, but it never seemed like breaking up with him itself was destructive, because you weren’t happy. So you were trying to do something about it. When people’s motivations are very mixed and complicated, it’s not one thing or the other. But I certainly don’t see your breaking up with Chris as purely destructive. (client responds) Again, I saw you... and again, even this is not purely destructive, but you staying with Chris and then seeing these other guys is far more destructive than you deciding to leave him.

CLIENT: Yeah. Which is funny, because this feels more destructive, because there is so much emptiness and loneliness (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Well, it might be more difficult. (client chuckles) Being difficult and being destructive are not the same thing. (client affirms) You know what, we need to stop. I will see you on Wednesday!

CLIENT: Wednesday.

THERAPIST: Okay, great!

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Okay, take care.

CLIENT: Have a good day.

THERAPIST: Thank you; you, too!

END TRANSCRIPT