TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

[00:01:00]

[00:02:00]

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in. [00:03:00]

CLIENT: Hi.

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[00:04:00]

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[00:05:00]

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CLIENT: Trying to think what to say. [laughs] Not much has happened since Monday. [laughs]

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CLIENT: Janice (inaudible at 00:05:52) twice. [laughs] Just come over to watch TV. [00:06:00] That’s all.

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CLIENT: I was quite at peace yesterday. I was working and then [sighs] I don’t know, something happened—I don’t know that is, just became worried and sad, I don’t know. [00:07:09] I think it was an e-mail from Nelson (sp?) that did it. [laughs]

It was silly. He sent a couple links to articles about dating, dating websites or how to write a good dating profile, profile for a dating website. I was a little weirded [sic] out by that. [laughs]

I wanted to reply. I wanted to say, “Is this in preparation for January? Are you getting back on the dating (inaudible at 00:07:51)?” [laughs]

[00:08:00]

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CLIENT: It takes very little, it seems, to make me feel insecure or destabilizes my stability, I don’t know. [laughs]

THERAPIST: That’s a rather odd thing to get from someone you’re dating.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think men just don’t think. [laughs]

I just keep realizing every week that…I didn’t really know what I was getting into. Maybe I did, but I’m not ready to accept it, that I just was not looking for anything serious or that I still have Chris (ph) in my mind and I was just—I don’t know. It’s hard to be objective about this stuff. [laughs] [00:09:02]

Like you said, I was unhappy with Chris and I know I was, so… [sighs] I guess the gray area was whether we thought or I thought we could work issues out. We were talking about doing couples’ therapy at one point. We (ph) made recommendations, and then I guess we both chickened-out at different points.

Then I met Nelson and then I was like, “I want to explore this” [laughs] without doing a clean break, [pretty much by] (ph) telling him, “I met someone and I’m going to explore.” I didn’t really say that, because have the confidence to. [00:10:00]

I did kind of move out. Even if I didn’t physically move out, I definitely was paying (inaudible at 00:10:14). [laughs] I know it’s a risk and all, but it’s [sighs] I don’t know, maybe taking risks makes me feel more in control, I don’t know. Help me… [sighs] [I don’t know] (ph).

It’s just weird, the things that come out of Nelson’s mouth. [laughs] I think that’s what I was starting to talk about on Monday in the ending. [00:11:03] He’s like, “Yeah, from age 25 to 35, I’ve been seeing women with the intent of getting married, and that didn’t work. Now I’m changing my approach and putting no pressure on myself in trying to have a relationship. I’m just seeing where it goes.” [laughs] It was worrisome to tell someone like me, who’s already [laughs] always worried that (inaudible at 00:11:44). [laughs] I don’t really like hearing that.

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CLIENT: That’s all. [laughs] [00:12:00]

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CLIENT: I guess I’m trying to tell myself that it’s okay. If worse comes to worst, he’s just using me for whatever, sex or whatever. It’s fine. [laughs] Doesn’t mean that I’m lonely, doesn’t make me—doesn’t change who I am. I don’t know if I actually believe that right now, but trying to get there.

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CLIENT: Yeah, because I have genuinely things to fear, because he is dating (inaudible at 00:13:02). [laughs]

THERAPIST: How do you know that?

CLIENT: Well, his excuse is that these are the women his parents send him and he just has to meet them. [laughs] Well, yeah, I don’t have that problem. [laughs] If (inaudible at 00:13:28) do that, do this in good faith. It’s weird.

THERAPIST: I’m sorry, do what in good faith?

CLIENT: Continue to see me and also consider other potential marriage partners.

THERAPIST: Do you tell him that?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don’t know, he just always confuses me or convinces me. I think he’s very good with—I don’t want to say “words,” but yeah, he just manipulates me into letting go of it somehow. [00:14:06] I don’t know how. [laughs]

(inaudible at 00:14:10) interacts with. Someone died, (inaudible at 00:14:12).

THERAPIST: What do you mean?

CLIENT: Well, she was completely under his spell. He was master manipulator, he could do—he could talk her into anything: asking her brothers for money, scolding me, yeah – forgiving him for all those bad things.

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CLIENT: Nelson just says things in a way that, I don’t know. He’s like, “I have given my word to my parents and no matter what happens, I have to hold up my word.” [laughs] [00:15:08] It’s like, “Okay.” He’s like, “I’m dealing with this, it’s my issue.” Like, “Okay.” [laughs] I just tell myself, “This has nothing to do with me.”

I feel like I’m not at that point where I can just be like, “You know, I’m done.” This isn’t the truth, though. I don’t think I’m at that point. I feel like seeing him and his friends on the weekends is like my reward for working during the week, for…yeah. [laughs] [00:16:00] I see it as a reward. The alcohol and the music, I never had that and I think I always wanted that, so…I don’t know if my mom would say that’s my destructive phase, this is my destructive phase, I don’t know. [sighs] I don’t know. [laughs]

I see there’s a “supposed to” there. I’m supposed to be married or have children at my age [laughs] instead of thinking of parties or going (inaudible at 00:16:54), but I don’t know. I didn’t do this in my 20s when I was supposed to. [laughs] [00:17:00]

I understand that I [was in that] (ph) sense of deprivation and trying not to act from that, but maybe it is there and I am acting from that, I don’t know. I guess it is like a drug that I’m currently [laughs] addicted to. [laughs]

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CLIENT: Yeah, it is not something I can deal with (inaudible at 00:17:44). It’s not like one of my—this is not like one of my black and white categories that, “This person is (inaudible at 00:17:50), that person doesn’t.” I understand that Chris’s energies are spent on thinking and sitting down and being sedentary and thinking. [00:18:06] What I crave is energy that is magnetic. [laughs]

I don’t know. Is this wrong? [laughs]

THERAPIST: Is what wrong?

CLIENT: Craving this reward [at this point] (ph). How long will I crave it? [laughs]

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[00:19:00]

CLIENT: [sighs]

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CLIENT: [sighs]

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[00:22:00]

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THERAPIST: Do you want to share [anything you might] (ph) be thinking about it?

CLIENT: [laughs] It’s all over the place.

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CLIENT: It’s hard to feel somewhat secure where I am with Nelson (inaudible at 00:22:46) he does something or says something that totally unsettles me. [laughs] Then I have to be on my toes and I guess guard my heart or something. [00:23:00]

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[00:24:00]

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CLIENT: How long does it take for a man to regain sexual confidence?

THERAPIST: I don’t understand the question.

CLIENT: [sighs] [00:25:00] I feel like that’s reason why Nelson doesn’t want to let go of me. [laughs] Because he’s not very experienced and he has anxieties about his abilities. He only had one girlfriend and she dumped him for this reason. He’s only been on first dates with like 50 women. [laughs]

THERAPIST: How old is he?

CLIENT: Thirty-five. When I met him [laughs] I was attracted to him and I guess I was on the rebound, really from, Victor, [laughs] not so much from Chris, but it (ph) was a little bit of that, too. [00:26:00]

I’m not denying that finding [to have] (ph) sex. It was enjoyable but I was still not attracted to him physically. I had all this emotional baggage that we hadn’t worked out, like feeling that sibling rivalry, etc.

I think that, and then I was still thinking about Victor. That’s when I met Nelson. I guess since I was attracted to him, I wanted to explore this with him. It took him a long time [laughs] to agree to that.

THERAPIST: Agree to?

CLIENT: To explore this, to sleep with me. [laughs]

THERAPIST: He didn’t want to, initially? [00:27:00]

CLIENT: Well, we met and then I went away to Nepal for a couple months. Then in August, I came back, and I was kind of trying to push the envelope. We met over the weekends and his parents were still there. We (inaudible at 00:27:20), “Are we going to do something or what?”

In August, a couple of times, he took me back to his place, (inaudible at 00:27:35) through the back door [laughs] because his parents were at home. Then he kissed me and we fooled around once. That was (inaudible at 00:27:49).

Then his parents went away and then my expectations went up, like, “Okay, is this going to happen?” or whatever. [00:28:02] Then every weekend, something happened, like his friends were staying with him or something. I was frustrated.

Then, one night, we were by ourselves and he just fell asleep. I started to put my clothes back on, I was like, “I’m going home.” [laughs] (inaudible at 00:28:25) home. I told him, “I’m sexually frustrated. I’m attracted to you and you’re not going to do anything about it.” Then he went into the bathroom for an hour. [laughs] Then he came out and said, “Okay, let’s do it.” [laughs]

Since then, we’ve been kind of exploring this, but he can’t really—I think I told you what exactly, because he can’t really get it up for, I don’t know. [00:29:02] He has problems with that.

THERAPIST: Is he able to get an erection at all?

CLIENT: Yeah, but it kind of goes away really quickly and he loses focus and all that. In a way, I’m fine with that, in the sense that it makes feel like (inaudible at 00:29:23) [laughs] I guess I’m thinking. It makes me rethink Chris, I guess. [laughs] Reconsider him, almost.

It complicates my understanding of sexuality. It’s a very recent acquisition anyways, my understand of sexuality, my experience. I’m learning that, okay, Chris. I’m not attracted, but his performance is fine. [00:30:03] He’s attentive, he’s not selfish, it’s not all about him. He can get an erection.

With Nelson, I’m attracted. He’s kind of selfish. It’s mostly about him. He is trying to be attentive but it’s just not in his nature. He can’t really get an erection.

It’s like, “This is interesting.” [laughs] “How in the hell is this going to work out?” [laughs] I could ask you, point-blank, but then you’d say, “How am I supposed to know?” This is just something that (crosstalk at 00:30:44).

THERAPIST: Is that what I typically say, “How am I supposed to know?”

CLIENT: Well, not typically. I guess you want me to figure things out on my own.

THERAPIST: I do. I certainly can think through with—I do, but that’s usually more of an—if you want to think about ways in which this—versions of how this could work out or how it could play out, I’m happy to talk with you about that. [00:31:11]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I usually make that comment more an interpretation about you wanting sort of some answer, or you’re not feeling confident in yourself to know, or feeling that there is a right answer.

CLIENT: Yeah, okay. You will talk me through stuff?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Do you feel I don’t?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. You normally do. I didn’t mean to be like, “You’re not doing this.” [laughs]

THERAPIST: Well, if you feel that I don’t or don’t enough, you should tell me.

CLIENT: Okay. No, a lot of times, I feel lost. Then I just want someone to shine the light. [laughs]

THERAPIST: Right, and even sort of the specific areas you feel lost about, I absolutely want to talk to you specifically about, but I also want to talk to you about that feeling of being lost. [00:32:01]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Which is also important.

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: I don’t want that to get lost in us looking at particular areas.

CLIENT: Yeah. Is this one of the areas in which I’m lost, sexuality? [laughs]

THERAPIST: Lost in what sense?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don’t think it’s a “lost,” per se. I understand that people have—I’ve talked to other friends about this. [laughs] They’re really taking me to task for this thing. This was something that this guy said, he’s like, “So you’re attracted to someone who’s not good in bed, and you’re not attracted to someone who is,” or something. “You want someone,” I don’t know how he phrased it; the words were brilliant at that time. [00:33:02]

I understand that there are these experiences other people and normal people have, but for some reason, I’m not really any more desperate to have those same experiences. [sighs] I feel like I’m having so much fun just being with someone that I’m finally physically attracted to that I don’t want to put pressure or make demands on this beautiful, ideal sexual experience that I think is out there, that I think everyone else is having except me.

I do feel at peace about that. I know that I’m not quite at peace about [laughs] the fact that I like two guys for two very different things. [00:34:00] Maybe they’re same things. [laughs] Well, same thing like Chris can…my sexual experience with Chris is satisfactory in this one very specific regard. My sexual experience with Nelson is kind of more colored.

This is weird, though, because at first, he didn’t want to do it. I guess he wasn’t sure about me, but then also he wasn’t sure about his own abilities. Since then, he’s very into this and he wants to do it three, four times a day. By “do it,” I mean not intercourse but just whatever way that he does it. [00:35:07] Yeah.

THERAPIST: What do you mean?

CLIENT: Well, his technique [laughs] is not really intercourse. It’s basically just doing whatever it takes for him to ejaculate.

THERAPIST: Is that okay with you?

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: Is that okay with you?

CLIENT: Yeah. Most of the time, it is, yeah. I enjoy the foreplay, but…yeah.

THERAPIST: Is there a reason you don’t have intercourse?

CLIENT: He can’t really get hard enough.

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:35:43) I see.

CLIENT: Like I said, I’m fine with that. (inaudible at 00:35:48) then I’m like, “Ah, this is something Chris can do.” [laughs] I don’t know what that thinking is. [laughs] Maybe I shouldn’t be fine with it. [00:36:00]

This is scary [to him] (ph). At first, he didn’t want to do it at all. Now he wants it three, four times a day. What does that mean? Is he preparing [laughs] for something?

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:36:13)

CLIENT: Something? Is he trying to get over his anxieties as quickly as he can? Is he like, “Let me just get as much fun out of her as I can and then dump her before she dumps me?” I don’t know. These are the things that I worry about sometimes.

What is your take on this radical change in behavior?

THERAPIST: I have no idea.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think the only thing you can do is ask him.

CLIENT: [laughs] Yeah. [00:37:00]

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THERAPIST: But you’re concerned – leaving aside the sexual piece for a moment – that he’s not providing you with the kind of security you’re looking for.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I wouldn’t ignore that. I’m not saying you can’t, but I wouldn’t ignore that. It’s important. It’s something that you’re feeling.

CLIENT: Yeah. You mean security just in terms of a committed relationship, or…?

THERAPIST: Yeah, that’s a piece of it. You were saying that he’s sort of seeing these other women and he’s giving the reason that it’s because of (inaudible at 00:37:46) his parents – which it may very well be, but…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: …it doesn’t make you feel comfortable, and that’s important.

CLIENT: Well, it just makes me take a step back, emotionally. [00:38:00] I don’t even know if that’s accurate [laughs] in a sense. Am I really doing it? Because come Friday and I’m like, “Okay, I’m tired of being by myself,” or, “I’m bored and I really need that release, that reward.”

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CLIENT: I don’t know. I’m trying to use this as a way to make myself more secure in other areas. I don’t need his whatever, commitment, his word, his loyalty. I say this, but then I definitely have breakdown when I find out—couple weeks ago, I think, I accidentally saw an e-mail between him and this girl. [laughs] [0:39:05] I had a (inaudible at 00:39:09) moment of panic. Kind of freaked out and got really drunk and had the worst hangover of my life. It’s just like I’m hurting myself. [laughs]

That was a first, with him – first as in drinking too much and having a hangover, throwing up and all. I find out he’s dating other women, maybe I won’t get drunk. [laughs] Maybe I’ll just take it up with him and end it or something.

Yeah, this is like—I feel like we’re kind of in this weird game, we’re playing this weird game where it’s like I need him for all the excitement and stuff, because I don’t have any other reliable source [laughs] for that. [00:40:08] He needs me for sex, because he doesn’t have any other reliable source for that. [laughs] That’s a pretty depressing way of looking at it, like an exchange.

It’s not to say that we don’t care about each other, but when this happens, when we find this out, then it’s hard—that’s what you say about the situation. Not that, “We care about each other.” [laughs]

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CLIENT: Yeah, just not having that security just makes me try and look for it in other places, I guess. [00:41:06] In Chris. [laughs] In my own kind of life, what I have.

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CLIENT: I feel like when I had security with Chris and I feel like maybe I got too lax when I had that security. I took that away from me and tried to rough it out by myself, try to find it within myself. [laughs] [00:42:00] Is that a weird way of looking at it?

THERAPIST: Not if it’s true.

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel like it’s normal or it’s right. Like what you said, if you’re not getting security and you need it, you should be careful. I’m thinking it’s actually good that I’m not getting it [laughs] because I’m looking for it not with him but inside myself. [laughs] It’s weird because that’s like the equivalent of saying, “Yeah, every morning I’m getting up to the 20th floor and just threatening to jump just to feel…” Is that the right analogy? Just like dangling from the 20th floor just to find inner strength. [laughs] [00:43:01] People do that, to find inner strength, don’t they? They jump off planes.

THERAPIST: How are you jumping off a plane?

CLIENT: [sighs] By letting go of the plane called Chris. [laughs] Picking up an unreliable parachute called Nelson. [laughs]

THERAPIST: What about your own parachute?

CLIENT: Well, hopefully it’s there. Hopefully that’s the one that’ll kick in. [laughs]

THERAPIST: You have to pull it.

CLIENT: Yeah, I’ll pull it. I’m pulling it, I think. Nights I spend alone, I’m pulling the parachute, right? No?

THERAPIST: I don’t know. Does it feel that way?

CLIENT: I think so. Anything not Chris and not Nelson is my own parachute, right? [00:44:05] Even if it’s friends and stuff, right? Yeah, helping my friend with his Ph. D. application, still. Literature, my mom, that’s part of my parachute. [laughs]

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[00:45:00]

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CLIENT: I guess there must be a right balance, because between having a secure foundation in family and friends and also being secure from within. I guess people need both, I don’t know. [00:46:02]

THERAPIST: I think they do.

CLIENT: Which is why, I guess, I’m wondering if I should be pissed [laughs] for when I really falling, two years ago. Where were my friends? I didn’t have friends. Where was Chris?

THERAPIST: You don’t feel like he was there.

CLIENT: Yeah – that whole narrative of me going to Ohio instead of going to him.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:46:45) I will see you on Monday.

CLIENT: Yeah. Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thank you very much. I’ll see you soon. Okay, bye-bye.

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