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THERAPIST: Hi.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:04:08)

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THERAPIST: You don't want to talk today?

CLIENT: [laughs] I'm just...I don't know where to start. [laughs] I think of something, and then think of something else, and then think of something else, so, yeah. (inaudible at 00:10:21) [laughs] (inaudible at 00:10:23)

Some days, I feel like I need a prompt. [laughs]

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CLIENT: [sighs]

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CLIENT: [laughs] I'm just thinking about stuff from this weekend (ph). [I met] (ph) I guess a friend for dinner. She came to MSU couple years after me. She's also from Nepal and...so (ph) I felt we're very different and all, so I just felt like I'm meeting-we meet once a year or something, I don't know. [00:12:02] I've only known her for a little while.

But it just seems like she's sniffing me out or something. [laughs] Like, "What are you up to? What are you working on? How close are you to being done?" (inaudible at 00:12:17) She puts me on the edge, so I'm trying to...understand what happens there. [laughs]

THERAPIST: What do you mean?

CLIENT: Just...the way she asks. Then I was telling Alissa (ph) it's okay if I publish with a small press, at least that will just give me a chance to teach, give me a steady job. That's something I said, but then I say it to-I've said this to many people, and mostly their response is, "No, no. [00:13:06] You can publish with a big publisher and you'll be successful."

But she's like, "Yeah, you know, you can publish small press and get that job, which is what you want." [laughs] In that way. It's not exactly condescending, but it minimizes my ambitions. I said that to her, in a sense in a back-up plan sense but she's like, "That's your plan." [laughs]

Mostly she talks about what she does. That also puts me on-edge. I take things very personally. If you tell me you don't like something that I really like, and it's just some artist or some book nothing to do with me I want to know why, and I want to defend it. [00:14:02]

That puts me on-edge. Sometimes I think, "When is this going to end?" [laughs] "I just want to go home."

In those situations, when I feel scared and alone and small, I feel like my best strategy to feel less small is walk away or say no to something. [laughs] But (inaudible at 00:14:42) make an offer, first. [laughs]

I think not continuing to spend time with her, that was good. She bought a bottle of wine and then handed it to me, just because she had a longer walk home. [laughs] [00:15:00] Finally, she asked, "Do you even like white wine?" I was like, "No!" She was like, "Oh, good." Oh, not, I mean, like, "Oh, I guess than I'll take it back."

Just saying "no" felt good. "No, I don't want [laughs] your wine. I have to go and meet some friends now, so let's call it a night." [laughs] I don't know.

I envision forming this community of artists that are like-minded. It's hard to get over personalities. I just get stuck with petty stuff like personality. Maybe it's not so petty. That's what gets in the way. [00:16:00]

I have this thing about if the other person is not paying attention, not looking me in the eyes, and cuddling me or something [laughs] like coddling me metaphorically or even literally then it's like they're not interested. They don't like me. [laughs] That's very big for me and I wish I could disabuse myself of that. I feel like that's just (ph) such a sign of insecurity or something.

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CLIENT: How am I going to learn this lesson that if people are not paying attention to me, that does not mean that they don't like me or they don't want to spend time with me? [laughs] [00:17:04] That they just have other things on their mind and that's okay. [laughs] I could have other things on my mind, too.

I guess that's different. I do see that. It's not like if I'm meeting a friend for dinner and they're talking about things and not asking about me, I'm fine with that. But I guess I'm not fine with-it's not like everyone, it's just on certain occasions when I want attention from someone and then (ph) they don't give it to me, then I feel neglected and ignored, I guess. [00:18:00]

Nelson (sp?) says the best thing you could do then is to give attention, then you'll get attention. [laughs]

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's sometimes true.

CLIENT: Yeah, [I'm trying it out] (ph) only sometimes. [laughs]

THERAPIST: Well, yeah, sure. Whatever (inaudible at 00:18:22) you give attention to will give you attention in return.

CLIENT: Yeah.

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THERAPIST: What did you want from this woman?

CLIENT: I don't know. [laughs] I guess I wanted this amazing conversation about literature, about how we're struggling, about her be like, "Oh, you know, these rejections I'm getting, they put me down." [00:19:03] Or, "Oh, we love this thing so much, it's so great." Something like that, I guess. I don't know. I guess I do have this...ideal, all these ideals in my head, and then when-and reality is never, ever [laughs] like your ideals. Then I end up getting disappointed.

It's not just about my disappointment. It was more about...yeah, just the way she is. She does put me on-edge. She's not warm-overtly warm or warm the way that I expect people to be warm. I mean, I still like her and I'll still meet her, but maybe not right away. [laughs] [00:20:00] I'll think about it very carefully next time, and think about how exactly I'm going to take care of myself if I feel judged or feel vulnerable by something she says, how am I going to avoid feeling low. [laughs] It can't just be that I drink [laughs] before I get there or drink while we're talking. [laughs]

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CLIENT: I mean, she's just more stable, so she's married. She eats healthy food and cooks for her husband. [laughs] They have a bit of money, they have a house.

Yeah, and she's not breaking down because of all the rejections. [00:21:04] She's taking everything [she said] (ph) down and revising it again and she has plans and she's hopeful and upbeat. I kind of really hate her for that. [laughs] I'm like, "Wait, that just destroyed me two years ago. Why are you doing okay?" [laughs]

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CLIENT: [sighs] That was just (ph) one thing. Another was I don't know, was it Sunday morning? Yeah, yesterday just looking on Facebook and another friend, her work is coming out and so she was posting about that and an event of her talking about her work. [00:22:00]

The thing with that that bothered me was she was talking in this place in India that that woman frequents, the one whose father and I had [this thing] (ph).

They're both India elite. Yeah, they're India elites. [laughs] They have their connections. One girl's father is a poet; another girl's father is the director of the national (ph) museum and all that. [laughs] I mean, it's ridiculous for me to even think about it yeah, you (ph) spend any amount of time thinking about them and their connections, but it's just that the way that you come close to each other at a school setting, that reduces social boundaries. [00:23:07] Then, when they're back in their own social (ph) positions, those boundaries crop up again.

But I don't know; it just made me feel really weird that they're India elites. [laughs] It makes me feel vulnerable again. [laughs]

Yeah, that's the thing, I felt completely at bay and lost at sea for a bit. So I went to see Chris (sp?) last night. [laughs] It feels like such a vacation, a nice vacation, seeing him and being at his place. [00:24:01] It was my place, too. It has all my books, my jewelry.

THERAPIST: Still?

CLIENT: Eh?

THERAPIST: Still?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You (inaudible at 00:24:11) leave it there?

CLIENT: Yeah, because when I found this room, I just took the basics, like my desk, some books, and moved myself. [laughs] Yeah, most of my books are still at his place.

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CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, it's funny how I pushed Chris away, for whatever reason because I was unhappy. [00:25:03] Not only that, but...and now I'm wondering if he's actually a source of strength.

I mean, he always was, even when I was unhappy (inaudible at 00:25:13). I guess we talked about how he gives me structure and he's supportive, and living with him, I didn't have to worry about money at least, pay my share of rent, I didn't have to do that. I felt taken care of.

But I felt I had an independence and I wanted some craziness [laughs] that (ph) he couldn't give me, and so that was...that's why I always sought out other men (inaudible at 00:25:54).

Yeah, this weekend was part of, I don't know, [we were] (ph) busy and-I mean, we talk, obviously. He's supportive in his own way, when he's being serious. [laughs] But I still felt lost and scared because of, I guess, these two other women and trying to find my bearings but then...I guess one of the points on my compass was Chris. [laughs] Maybe is a North Star. [laughs] Maybe, you know?

I mean, I don't want to say that on the record, but in the sense that I want myself to be my North Star. [00:27:02] I don't want anybody else to be my North Star.

But he does know me in a way that no one else does, so it's like we had a-(inaudible at 00:27:20) tells me some people from the community used to gather once a month to read stuff that they've been reading and I mostly read what I've been writing.

That also didn't go so well. It was at some person's place, someone I don't really like. [laughs] I was I don't know. I felt uncomfortable reading. And then Chris was there and was like, "You're so good, (inaudible at 00:27:47)," so I guess I was drawn to him at that moment, and I wanted to talk to him and stuff. [00:28:00]

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CLIENT: Is it bad to go back and forth between two guys? [laughs] I mean, I don't know if that's the way I should look at it, but it feels like kind of become my support system, but then I'm like, "Is that bad? Should I be scared about that?" [laughs]

THERAPIST: What about it is scary?

CLIENT: Well, because, shouldn't that come from within? I mean, I guess not everything can come from within; you'd (ph) still need people. [00:31:00]

Yeah, I don't know. [laughs]

THERAPIST: That seems like the question that you grapple with a lot, how much should you rely on other people and when should you try to use yourself as a pillar?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And your interactions with others can definitely throw you off-kilter.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Don't you think?

CLIENT: Yeah. You mean, like with that dinner with the friend. Yeah.

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CLIENT: Should I just avoid them? [laughs]

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THERAPIST: It depends. If you get something (ph) enough out of them, then there's enough value in that you can weather the parts of them you don't like. [00:32:04] Maybe not, and maybe you feel like it's too disruptive then, maybe.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's (inaudible at 00:32:15) to think about.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, I think both you take things very personally when people are just distracted or whatever, and then this woman might be competitive and so forth, be relating to through her own insecurities.

CLIENT: Yeah. [laughs]

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THERAPIST: But you look in a very comparative way; very, very comparative.

CLIENT: Yeah. [laughs]

THERAPIST: It's like everything is graded on a curve.

CLIENT: But that means that it's similar-yeah, it is. Everyone gets Brownie points. That's not what you mean.

THERAPIST: I (inaudible at 00:33:32).

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't understand what you mean, [graded that curve] (ph).

THERAPIST: On a curve, it's like when you have a class and 90% is A, regardless. That's not a curve. A curve is your A will be somebody else's B. A curve is relative. A curve is like if there are ten people in the class and everyone gets above 90%, there's still going to be equal distribution. [00:34:01] There are going to be Cs and As and Ds and so forth, because everyone is graded relative to each other...

CLIENT: Ah.

THERAPIST: ...not based on just their own achievement. Not everybody can get all As if you're graded on a curve.

CLIENT: Ah.

THERAPIST: You have to have an equal distribution in the class.

CLIENT: I see. That's what that means.

THERAPIST: Yeah, on a curve.

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: I know, it's an expression. It actually means that it doesn't matter if people get 97% to 100%, that 97%-I don't know if it actually means that people fail, might be. But that 97% could be a D, because relative to everybody else, you didn't do well, even if you did really well.

CLIENT: Oh, I see. That's what that means, okay. I never (crosstalk at 00:34:46).

THERAPIST: One person's up is another person's down, yes.

CLIENT: I see. How does that apply to my life or my thinking?

THERAPIST: Well, because it's like someone else's success is ultimately your failure. It's like there's not...

CLIENT: Yeah!

THERAPIST: ...oh, wait, you'll get a book deal from somebody else. There aren't two great books that can both get published. [00:35:03] It's like there's one (inaudible at 00:35:04) book that's going to get published and this just knocks you down. Everything is relative and everything is evaluative (ph) and comparative.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, it definitely felt like that, the India girl's success is like my failure. [laughs]

THERAPIST: Absolutely. You describe that really frequently. "Look at what this person did and that person did," and it's automatically a reflection on you on what you haven't done or maybe even what you can't do.

CLIENT: I'm so tired of thinking [laughs] that way, it's so damaging.

THERAPIST: That's great! Doing something differently just because you're exhausted by doing what you're doing, that's fine motivation.

CLIENT: [laughs] (crosstalk at 00:35:49)

THERAPIST: "I'm sick of smoking all the time!" Great! Stop smoking.

CLIENT: [laughs] Well, it's easier said than done, right?

THERAPIST: No doubt.

CLIENT: [laughs] Habits, old habits. [00:36:01]

THERAPIST: But, you know, wanting to stop smoking because you want to be healthy is great. Wanting to stop smoking because you're sick of going to the corner store? Fine!

CLIENT: [laughs] Yeah, I see.

THERAPIST: Cigarettes are expensive. (inaudible at 00:36:16), bought a few packs of cigarettes. I had no idea how much cigarettes were. It was $30 some odd for three packs of cigarettes.

CLIENT: Thirty?

THERAPIST: Some-odd-dollars for three packs.

CLIENT: That's a lot. You can-

THERAPIST: $33? I was just like, "Oh my God."

CLIENT: That's a nice dinner! [laughs]

THERAPIST: That's insane, that's an insane amount of-people spend a lot of money smoking.

CLIENT: [laughs] Yeah. It's cheaper to smoke hookah, much cheaper.

THERAPIST: I'm sure it's cheaper to smoke a lot of things.

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: It's probably cheaper to smoke coke! [laughs]

CLIENT: I'm...

THERAPIST: [laughs] Probably not...

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: ...but probably cheaper to smoke a lot of things than smoke cigarettes.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: At least it's not taxed.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's where the money goes. Yeah, I don't really smoke. [laughs] [00:37:01]

I don't know if I can change. [laughs] It's automatically in-built (ph). I want to change. Sometimes I feel like I can, but it's just that way. It's just that way. Looking at someone else's success just makes me feel horrible. [laughs] Just awful. I can't even look at-I mean, it's really bad.

THERAPIST: I'm sorry, what were you going to say?

CLIENT: I was going to say just another example. I thought about this "Forbes" magazine (inaudible at 00:37:46) and they're just listing 30 Under 30, all these 30 fabulous people who are 22 or whatever. They're like amazing-better than rocket scientists. [00:38:00] What were you going to say?

THERAPIST: It reminds me a little bit of our conversation a long ago not that long ago about being something by association, being chosen...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...by association. It's not quite the same thing, but when you hear someone who does something great, you don't think, "Oh, that could be me!"

CLIENT: [laughs] Hmm.

THERAPIST: Like, "Oh, that's inspiration! She could do it, I can do it!" It's, "Ugh, what haven't I done? What can't I do?"

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It doesn't give you hope. Like, "Oh, look, that's possible!" I mean, you could say if you're surrounded by people who have no success, you could feel like, "Oh, God, I guess no one's doing well. How is that even possible, to do well?" Whereas when you're around people who do well, it's like, "Oh, look, this is possible. This is possible for me, too."

CLIENT: Yeah. But I mean, there is a certain way that media and everything does project these success stories as in, "Na na na na na na," in your face. [00:39:05]

THERAPIST: Or (ph) la-la-la.

CLIENT: [laughs] I feel that way.

THERAPIST: I know you feel that way. Because you feel someone else's success is almost an implicit sort of condescension or implicitly saying, "Look what I did that you didn't do."

CLIENT: I know, and this is at the core of me and it makes me-it creates a lot of problems, a lot of problems.

THERAPIST: I know.

CLIENT: [laughs] It's not just looking at people in the magazine, it's actual people in the room that I could actually get along with and stuff. But as soon as they say, "Oh, I'm a post-doc, I have a Ph. D.," and I just completely freak out. [laughs] Feel horrible and lonely; I just want to run away. [00:40:00]

It doesn't make me feel like, "Ooh, I could do that! If she can do it, I can do it." No, [laughs] not really.

I mean, I'm sure it stems from all the negative and condescending things my dad said to me growing up, but I feel like it's time I disabused myself of that kind of thinking.

THERAPIST: I was thinking about him and just his bitterness, too. He's so bitter.

CLIENT: Yeah, very bitter. And he was someone who had early success in life; he went into the best college. He was decent-looking and he was a boxer, so in every area he was-and he got a job right away. [00:41:01] But (inaudible at 00:41:03), for whatever reason... [laughs]

THERAPIST: Which I guess shows you that it's far more a reflection of something that was inside him than anything that was really a reflection of his achievement.

CLIENT: Yeah.

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CLIENT: I don't know. Nelson says money brings him confidence. [laughs] He says the moment he walks into a room, he just thinks that everyone likes him, even if they don't. He just tells himself that. [laughs] [00:42:00]

I mean, that's what I'm attracted to (inaudible at 00:42:12) a lot, that is, his confidence and he's always upbeat and personable. [laughs] I guess I want to learn to be that way.

That dinner would have gone so much better in my head if I had just said, "She likes me!" [laughs] Even if she doesn't, just tell myself, "She likes me," and then maybe the words coming out of my mouth would have been less self-deprecating. [laughs] I wouldn't have told her of my back-up plan, maybe I would have told her of my, ooh, wild ideas of how-my dreams, being successful. [laughs] [00:43:05]

I could put your [sic] best foot forward or whatever, instead of not your worst, but half-hearted, awkward attempts [laughs] at dancing.

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CLIENT: He tells me I should be very cocky because-it matters where you come from and what you struggle with, instead of you're only born with...I don't know.

I mean, Chris says that, too. [00:44:01] He's like, "I'm very proud of you. You've overcome a lot." [laughs]

THERAPIST: You have.

CLIENT: I don't know, I guess I should keep thinking like that. [laughs]

THERAPIST: How you feel is a much lesser function of your success than your feelings about your success.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:44:23)

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: [Have a good night] (ph). I think I mentioned this to you, but if I haven't, the first week of February, I'm away.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: It's not for a few weeks, but just to let you know.

CLIENT: Just one week?

THERAPIST: Yeah, just for that week, exactly.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: It's the week of-I don't know, I think it's the 4th, something like that. Or it's the 3rd, something like that.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: First full week.

CLIENT: All right, no problem.

THERAPIST: Okay. Great. I will see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Okay, see you.

THERAPIST: Okay, great. Bye-bye.

CLIENT: Bye, have a good day.

THERAPIST: Thank you.

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