TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in.

(pause)

[00:01:00]

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:01:02)

THERAPIST: It's all right.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:01:04)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:01:06), yeah.

CLIENT: [laughs]

(pause)

CLIENT: I have a headache from running the (inaudible at 00:01:28). [laughs] I feel like going to bed. [laughs] I don't know why running gives me a headache, I have no idea. [laughs]

(pause)

[00:02:00]

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[00:03:00]

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THERAPIST: You don't want to talk today?

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:03:43) [laughs] Yeah, so, nothing's really happened since Monday, but I was thinking about what you said, what we talked about Monday. [00:04:01]

You should have coffee here. [laughs]

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: [laughs] I'm just like, "I just want to sleep." [laughs] It's really terrible, the headaches. Well, it's not terrible, but it's like...I usually have to take a headache medicine right after running. [laughs] (inaudible at 00:04:28)

Yeah, so, about that whole equation of someone else's success necessarily means no failure. [sighs] I was thinking about that, and it's not always the case. Like this one friend of mine from BU, she recently sold her book to the giant publisher. [00:05:00]

I was quite surprised by my reaction, I was actually, genuinely excited and happy. For some reason, there was no equation set up between her and me. In fact, I was very encouraged. I wrote her a very nice e-mail, and she also replied back very nicely, like, "Yeah, I can help you out. If you have any questions about agents, this is how I went about it, this is what I did."

I don't know, I just felt like she was totally open. She wasn't hiding anything, not really telling me anything at all about what she's working on. She comes across as kind of...a little silly and foolish, but gung-ho and adamant. [laughs] [00:06:01]

Chris (sp?) doesn't like her at all. He's always like, "She has no substance! Look at what she's writing, it's ridiculous! She's making fun of poor people, she has no sensitivity, she's not political." She's got this kind of voice that has some flair and-so she's actually really successful, in a sense that she's written for major newspapers and stuff on the web.

At some point, I just stopped comparing myself to her. I don't know if I even did compare myself to her. She was this...not dark horse, but someone who was not literary. She was on the waitlist, so she was not the teachers' favorite. She was on the outside, it seemed. [00:07:02]

I don't know. I knew that she got all these grants and things were going really well for her. I guess at some point I must have been jealous, but I feel like I wasn't, like I've never really compared myself to her.

When she got this-she announced her book deal, I guess I was a little, for a little while, scared, and, "Well, what the hell am I doing?" but that didn't last very long. Then I was e-mailing her and asking her, and I want to do the same program that she did, how she met her agent (inaudible at 00:07:44).

[sighs] I don't know. In that scenario, I feel like it was totally not...just...this thing...I wasn't anxious, (inaudible at 00:08:05) anxiety, which I feel like I have, in the case of certain other people. I wonder if it's because they're Nepalese. [laughs] Maybe I interact-I have a completely different way of interacting with Nepalese than I do with Americans.

THERAPIST: Do you feel more comparative with Nepalese?

CLIENT: I guess. Yeah, because...I don't know; I mean, I kind of understand [it right now] (ph). I mean...yeah, I don't know why.

Which is silly, because, if anything, I can totally compare myself to...this person. She's actually Korean-American. [00:09:00] She's born here.

It makes total sense for me to compare myself to her, rather than to these Nepalese, because they're elites and really elite, like their dads are directors of museums and what-not.

There's that whole class system in India that is not kind of present here or at least, ideologically. America is all about, "You work hard and you achieve your dreams." There's a reward for working hard here that is not necessarily there in other countries; especially not in India, which is the reason why people come here. [laughs]

All that aside, I guess ideologically I don't really understand what's going on. Why do I feel like I can compete with people like the elites of India? [laughs] [00:10:05] I don't really know-they're in a different class.

I guess it's the illusion of being here and sharing the same space for a while, sitting under the same roof, thinking we're friends, makes me feel like they're close to me? I don't know. I'm just surprised. [laughs]

(pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know. I guess I'm just in this comparative mode. I'm tired of it [laughs] but...I guess I'm trying to figure out how to snap out of it, how to come out of it. [00:11:00]

I mean, I don't know if it's still comparative if I think, "If she can do it, I can do it." [laughs] I don't know, with this Korean-American friend, I feel that's what I feel like. "If she can do it, I can do it." [laughs] Is that comparative?

THERAPIST: Not in the way we're talking about. If anything, that was sort of what I was talking about on Monday, in terms of what could happen for you but doesn't with other people.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, there was so many people with which it doesn't happen.

THERAPIST: Or even being-when you're out with Nelson (sp?) and feeling, rather than strength by association, you feel like an outsider. In a sense, what you're describing with this one friend, that you do feel strength by association, [in a sense] (ph), "If she can do it, I can do it." [00:12:04]

CLIENT: Yeah. I did. I felt weirdly strengthened. I don't know where it came from, [laughs] but it was there.

I mean, it could be the way that she interacted with me. She was open and friendly and encouraging and-and not overtly so. She didn't go out of the way to be encouraging, but-I mean, she always has been a little bit like, "Oh, yeah, so you're a literary (inaudible at 00:12:35), you taught me this, your language is so good that..." All these things have already been said. They've only been said once or twice, but that's enough to give this kind of friendship a positive spin.

But yeah, I would-maybe it's not an Nepalese thing, but I'm pretty sure it is an Nepalese thing, (inaudible at 00:13:01) with Nepalese I don't feel strengthened. I feel kind of pulled down. [laughs]

I don't know.

(pause)

CLIENT: What do you mean, when out with Nelson, I feel like an outsider?

THERAPIST: You were describing, a couple times when you're talking about being at a party with him, being with his friends and feeling like an outsider rather than feeling like, "Oh, I'm with him. I've been invited by him."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's (inaudible at 00:13:46).

CLIENT: Yeah, that whole thing was so weird. I guess it happened once in a mild way, very early on. [00:14:00] It was the first time he'd taken me to one of his friend's place, and it was just this one guy.

You know, I felt a little bit of an outsider. I mean, I did. But then, that feeling (inaudible at 00:14:15) escalated and erupted in everyone's face in that Thanksgiving dinner.

Once again, we went to this same guy's place and there was a party, other people were there. And I had this fight with this woman. She was like, "You (inaudible at 00:14:33)." [laughs]

That outsider feeling really was like crawling through my skin and in my veins. It was very intense, because that's all I could feel.

[sighs] I don't know. I'm trying to understand. I mean, I was an outsider. It's not psychological. [00:15:01]

THERAPIST: When you say, "I was," what are you referring to?

CLIENT: I mean at that Thanksgiving party, I was an outsider. [laughs]

THERAPIST: How are you defining it?

CLIENT: In the sense that [laughs] that's a circle and these people know each other for several years. That was the second or the third time they were meeting me. [laughs]

I mean, I see what I-I'm trying to understand this, because-so when I went-I took, to another gathering, I took my friend with me, this friend that I was helping with his Ph. D. applications. [00:16:00] I don't think he would feel like an outsider like so intensely, the way that I feel it. He was fine, he was doing everything that everyone else was doing and having a drink or dancing or talking and suggesting songs and just being naturally-yeah, just being natural.

I mean, he did mean early, and by early, it's 1:00 a.m. instead of 3:00 a.m., but... [sighs] That was the only difference. He was more polite and thanking the host and that was it.

But for me, it's like, whoa, I have to be very careful and clearly, I'm not very careful [laughs] because I scream at people. [00:17:00] It's like...I don't know. I don't understand it (inaudible at 00:17:11).

(pause)

CLIENT: I don't know, at that party, it just felt like everyone was just...there to judge me and...because I was there as Nelson's date, I felt like (inaudible at 00:17:46) they were all like, "Oh, what is she all about?" and, "What does she do?" "She's poor," or whatever. "She doesn't have a corporate job," and, "She doesn't have a Ph. D. What is she doing?" [00:18:02]

I don't know. I just felt like that's what people must have been thinking, but I know they weren't. [laughs] They weren't even thinking about me. Chris says, "Clearly, people don't even think about you," [laughs] "so you have nothing to worry about."

(pause)

CLIENT: And they were talking, I guess, amongst themselves, because then (ph) they knew each other well-not that they didn't talk to me, they were being just fine. They were being nice, actually. But I guess it was like they weren't going to talk to me and they were going to ignore me.

I remember feeling of, "I just want to die," or, "I just want to disappear," "I just want to go away." It's like two feelings conflicting. [00:19:01] It's like you want to impress them and be the center of attention, but at the same time you want to kind of put yourself in a hole and disappear. [laughs] It's like both these feelings are completely opposite one another. You feel pulled in both directions, and very intensely.

(pause)

CLIENT: And it reminds me, it totally reminds me my previous experience with my childhood. [laughs] Of groups and cliques and a circle of friends, wanting desperately to be a part of them, to gain recognition and [sighs] attention. [00:20:05] But then being mistreated and being ignored. Then wanting to prove them that they're idiots for-I feel mad at them. [laughs]

Like with this girl my mom used to tutor...the one that she kind of liked. The one who was teenager and she and I had some, whatever, sexual experience, whatever.

She had parties and she wouldn't invite me, because we lived so close to each other, we could hear the parties in the lawn and their garden. [00:21:05]

I remember this one time clearly that I really wanted to go, because she's like, "There's going to be this, there's going to be that, you're helping prepare for the party," a little bit, I kind of remember that now. But the actual evening of the party, there's music and you can hear them and stuff, but you can't really go down and join them. [laughs] Because they're wearing nice clothes and you're not. You're in your pajamas. [laughs]

I think it was just once or twice, maybe, or maybe a few times, but there were other times when I was invited to some of their birthday parties at their place.

I feel like that's how-she was making a point that [sighs], "Okay, I will tell you every single thing. [00:22:01] You know all my deep, dirty secrets, but when it comes time for me to be social and have a good time, you're not invited." [laughs]

That made me feel like a poor (inaudible at 00:22:25). [laughs]

THERAPIST: How much do you bring this experience into all your current experiences, where the context and the circumstances are so different?

CLIENT: I know, but I just don't understand why do I do that?

I have no idea. That's what I'm saying, they were actually being nice. They were actually-these people at Thanksgiving, they actually wanted to hear from me. [00:23:00] They were telling me to stop cooking and join them.

I don't know why I go lapse into that mode of thinking, where people are not going to be nice when they actually are nice.

I guess it's some kind of fear, maybe, that they won't be nice, or I'll disappoint them and then I do disappoint them! [laughs]

THERAPIST: It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

CLIENT: Yeah. Why does it work that way? [laughs]

(pause)

[00:24:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: I guess I was just got it into my head that I'm not good enough for these people, and maybe I'm not or these people as in certain people. I guess that's because of the competitive mode, I guess.

To have a nicer place, a nicer job, and at this point, I know everyone has a nice job than me, because, you know, I'm a student, so I don't make any money. Nicer job, nicer place, Ph. D. [00:25:00] It's automatically, I jack them up.

Then I think that they will judge me and think me stupid, foolish, whatever. [sighs] I automatically am on the defense mode, defense/offense. [laughs]

It's not rational at all, because-and the same people have at some point already said, "Oh, you've got so many degrees," and, "What you're doing is so brave." I, myself, kind of think that, "Yeah, these people have good jobs and they make good money, but they work ridiculous hours. [00:26:00] I don't have to do that. I have other kinds of things in my life. I can cook really well and I can do whatever I want whenever I want."

I don't know.

(pause)

CLIENT: I feel like saying that, "Oh, but if they just accept me for who I am, then I'll be nice to them, always," but that's not true, because they do, at some point, in their own way, accept me for who I am, [laughs] so that's not the reason. [laughs] [00:27:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: This whole power-by-association thing, it's good but I kind of take it with a grain of salt, because with Chris, that's what was supposed to happen and it did, for a bit. I felt smart, because he was smart.

But then, when he got his job-and we already knew that this was going to happen, we were talking about it and joking about it. But when it happened, it really felt like, it was like, "Oh, yeah, that's..." It was different when it happened than we were it anticipating it. [00:28:02] Yeah, so I did help him do interviews for his dissertation and all, but [sighs] none of that-I didn't get anything. He got the job, he got the Ph. D.

But again, we knew that that was the case. [laughs] I wasn't going to get a little MA in Economics just because I'm helping him.

(pause)

CLIENT: I felt, at that point, a very profound sense of almost betrayal. There was no power-by-association, I just wanted to push that away because I was like, "What does this mean? [00:29:05] What is this power-by-association?"

Now, if I were smart, [laughs] or practical, I would have thought, "Okay, this is a time I (inaudible at 00:29:14) what people expected me to do. This is the time to get married, because then I would not have to worry about money. I would not have to worry about money from UMB," because as a spouse, I would get free tuition and stuff. Right now, I still do (inaudible at 00:29:38) the scholarship, but it's a pain to, every semester they're late in posting things and all that.

Then again, you could say, I have other issues [with Chris] (ph), so that's why I didn't marry him at that time, not just because I was stupid or not practical. [00:30:00]

But yeah, that was about the power-by-association thing, because I thought, "What does this mean? He has a job and I have money to buy shoes now?" [laughs] That's how I thought of what I would get, associating with him.

I try to feel that way with Nelson so I can do things differently, but there's a clear distinction in my head. It's like his money. It's not like just because we're dating, I have access to his money. Obviously not. I don't know, maybe it can mean that I'll get free drinks once in a while. [laughs] [00:31:00]

I try to feel power-by-association in a sense that it's he's confident and he's got all this energy, so I feel like I should emulate that or I should feel confident. Yeah, I think that's about as far as I've gotten (ph) [laughs] with this.

His whole feeling that he can do anything, so I feel like, "If he feels like he can do anything, I certainly should feel that I can do something." [laughs] Not as a competitive thing, but just like...I don't know. He feels it; he must have some reason to feel it! [laughs] Even if I don't see that reason for myself, I just go ahead and feel it. [laughs] [00:32:00]

Is that what is meant by power-by-association?

THERAPIST: Sure, it's one version of it.

CLIENT: There's another version? [laughs]

THERAPIST: By him choosing you.

CLIENT: Oh, I don't like that. [laughs] What does that mean, "choosing" me? [laughs]

THERAPIST: When you're at a party and you feel like an outsider with his friends, but he was with (ph) you. You were associated with him. He brought you there.

CLIENT: Yeah, I hate that! What am I, a piece of vegetable or what? Am I a nice bag or something? I'm not an object.

THERAPIST: See, that's what that means to you, [that's where you mind goes] (ph).

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:32:50), that's so patriarchal.

THERAPIST: Yeah. That's certainly not what I meant, but it's interesting.

CLIENT: [laughs] [00:33:00] That's what it sounds like, to me. [laughs]

THERAPIST: It wasn't, "You should be so grateful that he chose you."

CLIENT: Yeah, that's what it sounds like. What should...

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: ...I be?

THERAPIST: Well, when you go and you feel like an outsider, you feel unwanted. And so I'm pointing out that he is choosing you, he's wanting you...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...not that you should be so grateful, that you're actually the opposite of being unwanted. But then your mind goes to, "Oh, I'm not an object."

CLIENT: [laughs] Yeah. But I chose him, too.

THERAPIST: Yeah, but when you feel like an outsider, the issue is your feeling unwanted.

CLIENT: Yeah, I see that. I see, I see.

THERAPIST: I'm not saying there's a power differential. You're feeling the power differential. I'm simply saying I'm just focusing on one side of the equation...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...I'm not saying there isn't a whole equation (ph).

CLIENT: I see. Let me think about it that way, [laughs] see if I can, but no, I just don't want to. [laughs] (inaudible at 00:34:02) [laughs]

No, no thanks. [laughs] I don't know why, but my mind is like, "No! Not going to walk through that door!" [laughs] I don't know why.

I just want to run away when that situation's presented to me, being wanted and chosen [sighs] feeling rolling my eyes. [laughs] I don't know why.

(pause)

CLIENT: I feel like I'm letting go of my independence when I think that way, you know? [00:35:03]

Like this jacket. Being given this jacket, I feel like-I'll put it on and just sit and do nothing, because, "Hey, you know, someone bought me a jacket and now I don't have to do anything." [laughs] It's a stupid way of thinking, because obviously I am doing stuff. I'm paying my rent and I'm paying my mom's rent. This jacket is only 100 bucks, that [whole other] thing is way more. [laughs]

(pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, that's another silly equation. If someone does something nice for me, then I feel like I will go...I'll get soft and I won't struggle. [00:36:04]

Which isn't true at all, because my bit (ph) of struggle hasn't gone away at all. It's still there: the work, the writing, figuring out career, helping mom. None of that is going away at all.

The help that people give me is basically just nice gestures or friendship. (inaudible at 00:36:39) of that's related to being wanted and accepting that I'm warm (ph) to it.

I feel queasy even saying those words, being chosen, being wanted. I don't know why. [laughs] [00:37:00] I guess because living for so long in that denial phase not just denial of, like, I'm denying reality but [sighs] denying things, right?

THERAPIST: What do you mean? Denying what?

CLIENT: Maybe it's not denial; it's another word...lack? That narrative of lack, that I don't have things. Being chosen and being wanted is not part of that whole narrative.

THERAPIST: It isn't.

CLIENT: But we're trying to change that, right? [laughs] [00:38:00]

(pause)

[00:39:00]

(pause)

[00:40:00]

CLIENT: I'm kind of confused. I'm thinking about that party and thinking, "Did I yell at that woman because I felt like an outsider?" I don't think so, right? That's a separate issue. That's got more to do with my issues with her and the fact that I didn't resolve them in the right way or take care of them early on, not because I felt like an outsider, right? (inaudible at 00:40:34)

THERAPIST: What did she say to you?

CLIENT: Hmm?

THERAPIST: Oh, no, this is the woman who was supposed to do the interview.

CLIENT: Yeah. I was just wondering, did I-was I mean to her because I felt too much, too safe, too secure and too happy that I was there and that I was wanted and chosen? [laughs] [00:41:03] I feel like I did feel that, a little bit, but...

THERAPIST: You felt she had a stronger obligation to you than certainly she felt...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...and you felt betrayed.

CLIENT: Yeah, so that has nothing to do with feeling like an outsider.

THERAPIST: Not directly.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It makes me wonder, sometimes, in order to compensate for the feeling of being an outsider that you sort of assume a level of loyalty that hasn't been established.

CLIENT: Probably. Can you say more about that?

THERAPIST: I don't know. [laughs]

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: It was just something that I was formulating.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:42:00] Well, because I do that. I think that's what people mean when they tell me that friendships take time, and I'm like, "What? No, no, no, they don't."

I'm this intense person and I am, kind of. It takes me a minute to click with someone, and that's true, too, that some of my friendships have been like that.

It's still not true, actually [laughs] that just means that the other person is intense and I'm intense and we both, when we talk, we tend to talk a lot or talk intensely and we have fun, but that does not...replace the fact that long-term friendships, you know someone for a long time, that is a completely different friendship. That's what these people are talking about, that friendships take time.

But I kind of jump the gun and I'm like, "Okay, no worries, we're just like-we bind each other in these obligations and we'll just skip over all of that time and then we'll be fused together." [laughs] [00:43:11]

Is that what you meant? Yeah, because I do tend to do that.

(pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, it kind of does go back to that experience in my childhood and not getting invited by this girl, of being treated like that by her. [laughs] It's funny. I didn't think it would affect me that much, but then going back to it and...yeah. [00:44:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: [sighs]

(pause)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:44:32), we're going to need to take this (inaudible at 00:44:34). I'll see you on Monday. Monday is Martin Luther King Day, I think, but I'm here.

CLIENT: Okay. (inaudible at 00:44:42)

THERAPIST: Okay, thank you. I appreciate you, too.

(pause)

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