TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(No activity from 00:00:00 to 00:04:41)

THERAPIST: Hi! Come on in!

(pause 00:04:42 to 00:06:45)

CLIENT: I’m trying to remember what we talked about on Monday.

(pause 00:06:46 to 00:07:07)

So, on Monday... my mom asked me if I was going to this... you know, get-together for this girl that I had a fight with on Thanksgiving. So was like, “She’s going away and she’s giving, you know, she’s having a get-together, are you coming?” And I was like, “I wasn’t invited.” (sneezes, therapist blesses) Apparently, she sent an e-mail to everyone except me, and then... so I was like, “Why did you have to tell me this, mom? You know, make me more upset.” (chuckles)

So like, she said, she couldn’t sleep all that night. Then the next morning, she called this girl (chuckles)... and then this girl was like... “So yeah, is Cecilia coming? Like my mom was like, “Do you want her to?” (chuckles) So she was like, “Yeah, it would be good to see her.” So then she, this woman, sent this, sent me the e-mail. (chuckles) So then I sent her a nice note, “Oh, are you going away? I’m sure you’ll be very successful in your project, and thank you for inviting me, and I’ll see you... [00:08:27]

So I went to the thing last night. I was just like really, you know like, I was observing myself and trying to understand like, the different things that I feel (chuckles), you know... and why do I feel them. (chuckles) So, I mean, obviously, it was nice of her to like, welcome me back, you know, because we, our like, the little community, our little group, we always see each other and... You know, she’s all about how she feels very loved and supported by all these people. (chuckles) I’m like, “That’s interesting. Like, I wonder if I...” I mean, I do feel that sometimes, obviously. But then when things go bad, it’s awf , you know, it’s like, I could throw it all away. (chuckles) [00:09:31]

I was very, very upset on Monday. What is this like, the constant like... you know like... throwing me under the bus (chuckles) like, constant pinpricks, you know? “Oh, you know, we’re having another party and you’re not invited.” And then another, the next week, the same thing. It was like, “How many times are we going to do (chuckles) this?” David was like, “Yeah, I know; just forget it. You know like, this is incredible, this is... I have an even... My opinion of your women’s group is getting lower and lower,” and this and that. He was just like... dragging me down and like, “Oh, poor you,” this and that. (sighs) But I only saw him for like, an hour so that was good. (chuckles) So... [00:10:18]

Then, yeah, I don’t know what went through this woman’s mind, you know, but... But it was a little awkward, but... there were so many people there, and I kept asking her questions about her trip and like... So you know, I tried to be nice. (pause) So I just like, was watching myself like... I feel so insecure like, still and like, competitive and... and this need to prove that I am good, or I’m better, or I won’t be, you know, loved or something, you know. It was a good like... time, but obviously, because of things that have happened, I wasn’t like, 100% in it, but just felt a little ironic about the situation, I guess. [00:11:13]

You know, there... You know like, my mom and like, another woman her age... and her husband and... and then people our age. So it’s like a family, right? It’s like parents and like, siblings. (chuckles) And like, she was the center of attention yesterday, which is, you know, all right, it’s fine. But I guess like, it makes me feel... insecure and like... competitive and... neglected. (chuckles) You know? Like, “Oh, she’s going over to do this thing,” you know like... When was the last time I won anything (chuckles), you know like... You know?

THERAPIST: Sometimes when you say things that are especially painful, you giggle.

CLIENT: Oh, I don’t know if it’s painful. Is it painful? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Feeling neglected... Usually feeling neglected doesn’t come with warm, happy thoughts. [00:12:20]

CLIENT: (chuckles) No, I just feel silly. I feel like, “Why am I feeling this way? It’s silly!”

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: There is no rationality for it. I mean, it’s irrational, so... That’s why I’m giggling.

THERAPIST: Because you feel silly.

CLIENT: (inaudible)

THERAPIST: Because you feel silly for having these feelings? (client affirms) (pause) What’s silly about those feelings?

CLIENT: They’re irrational. There is no need to feel neglected at that moment, you know. In fact, I was invited and like, like you say, you know like, I am wanted, so I should... feel that. (chuckles) instead of... an outsider. I could even take it a step further in a positive direction and be like, “I am the prodigal son!” How much more like, joy does the father bring to the prodigal son? I always like, rooted for the son who was around, in that story. (chuckles) Like, what... I’ll bet that guy feels so bitter. (chuckles) He’s been around and he’s done everything, and the dad is all about like, the son who runs away, didn’t, you know, didn’t give a fuck, you know? But, you know, people are like, “That’s not the point of the story. The point of the story... is, you know like, the dad’s love for... (chuckles) (sighs) Yeah. I mean, it wasn’t like, intense like, those feelings, but... maybe because I was cognizant of them, and I was trying to question them. Like, “Why do I feel weird and...” You know...

(pause 00:14:17 to 00:14:39)

Feeling competitive and feeling like... I know more, or better, even though I don’t. (chuckles) (pause) It’s like, no wonder people don’t want to hang out with me if I show that side (chuckles) of myself, you know?

(pause 00:15:05 to 00:15:56)

Yeah, I definitely feel more insecure in such a setting than like... maybe like, a room full of strangers or, I don’t know maybe it’s a different thing. I have no like... objective opinion, I’m just trying to...

(pause 00:16:15 to 00:17:57)

I mean, I really have no, I don’t have siblings, so I don’t really know like, how that dynamic is supposed to work like, in a family. How do you win your parents’ love when there is like... so many other... people to compete with, you know? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Hmm. Does it feel like only one person gets it?

CLIENT: Well like, at one time. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I don’t know what that means. Someone can only love one child at a time?

CLIENT: (chuckles) (pause) No, only one person can talk at one time.

THERAPIST: Okay. Is that what love is? Talking? [00:18:55]

CLIENT: I mean, it’s a performance. It’s like, the show of talent.

THERAPIST: I’m... I’ve lost you.

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: I’ve lost you. I’m not sure I follow.

CLIENT: But I mean like... yeah, love. Like, isn’t that like... a performance of your... talents and like... to show how good you are, or something.

THERAPIST: (pause) That’s what love feels like to you?

CLIENT: Sometimes, you know, and...

THERAPIST: (pause) That someone can’t love you unless like, you’re performing for them? [00:19:49]

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, I guess like... I don’t know. (pause) But like you know like... like affection. Like, David is affectionate when, you know, when he finds me cute. He’s like, “Oh, you’re so cute and you’re...” Then he might, maybe, give me a hug. So that’s something I’m doing, I feel (chuckles), I’m being cute. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: When he... when he gives you a hug, are you aware of consciously being cute, so you get a hug?

CLIENT: Well, no, there is a rationality behind that hug, you know. Like, I’ve earned it because I’m being cute. (pause) Yeah, I don’t know. And like Nelson might hug me, because I’m sexy or I’m being sexy at that moment. You know so that’s like... there is (chuckles), you know, that... yeah. So... [00:21:06]

THERAPIST: And when they’re not hugging you, then they’re not, they don’t have feelings for you?

CLIENT: Hmm, well... they’re just busy. (chuckles) Or ignoring me, I guess... to get stuff done. (chuckles), which is okay.

THERAPIST: But does that... I guess I’m... you’re equating feelings and behavior. So I’m trying to understand; if they’re not behaving a particular way towards you, their feelings have gone, in your mind.

CLIENT: Yeah, sometimes.

THERAPIST: (affirms) Like you’ve fallen off their radar. (client affirms)

(pause 00:21:50 to 00:23:08)

CLIENT: I don’t know. That’s what I think like... in a group setting like, that and like... I guess everyone does that, but you know, you’re constantly trying to think of something funny to say, or something interesting... so people, you know like, you’re on the radar, you know like... so... (pause) I don’t know, at least I’ll be helpful, you know?

(pause) But you know, another thing that I have to add to my list (chuckles) now, that I never used to be there, is not to be nasty or snarky, to take responsibility for what I say. (pause) Yeah, like... these people, you know, take a long time to recover from hurts. You know like, if I hurt them... I will (chuckles) get hurt back, and it won’t just be like, you know, one time. They, it could be a repeated thing like, you know? I mean, every week they’ll have a party, and I’ll hear about it, and I won’t be invited, so... Certainly don’t want that kind of treatment, you know? So... [00:24:37]

THERAPIST: (pause) But it also makes me think about how it’s so important for you to get reactions from people, and as you said, getting a negative reaction is better than no reaction. I’m thinking about why that is, and how it’s hard in the absence of immediate feedback or reaction or behavior, you feel very unloved and uncared for. (client responds) Like you’re not even registering for the other person.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don’t know why that is. (chuckles) (therapist affirms)

(pause 00:25:24 to 00:26:54)

Yeah, how do you know like, the person still likes you if they’re not interacting with (chuckles) you? (pause) You know like, if they’re interacting with you, and even if the interaction is negative, at least... you know if (yawns) they’re thinking about you. (pause) I mean, I don’t know if I have a constant need for interaction. I’m trying not to be that way. (chuckles) Like, I feel like maybe like, spending alone time will teach me how to not be needy like that. (pause) Like to find... interaction with myself fulfilling, you know? Like, staying inside myself. [00:28: 16]

THERAPIST: You’re bringing up an important piece about what that, the interpretation you give to the lack of interaction. (client affirms) That has a very particular type of interpretation. It’s very negative.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, that that lack of interaction feels like you’ve sort of fallen off the end of the earth, that if someone isn’t giving you attention or focused on you, you don’t really feel like you’ve registered for them or present for them emotionally. Like, if a parent were focused on, you know, your sibling and whatever they were doing, you know that somehow you would not be loved anymore, that they would be the one who would be winning the love. (client responds) And it’s very hard to function in that experience. (client responds) [00:29:15]

CLIENT: (pause) Well, I mean, I’m trying to replace that by thinking that my turn will come. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, that’s one way. I mean, certainly that’s one way of thinking about it. (client affirms) But it still leaves some insecurity, because you’re waiting for your turn, versus just feeling that... it’s always your turn, in a sense. It’s not your turn to always be the focus, but it’s your turn, because you’re present in someone’s mind, even if you’re not, you know, physically present with them or have their attention. (client responds)

(pause 00:29:59 to 00:30:36)

I mean, one way of thinking about this, in a particular way, is that, I mean, you (from your mother to some extent in some ways, but you certainly from your parents), did not sort of feel sufficiently and adequately loved and cared for. So you essentially developed theories as to, “Okay, well maybe I can do this to make it happen.” You know, in the absence of that, “Oh, well, then, if I do this or if I did this, then I can make that happen.” That is sort of what you do. (client affirms) You take it upon yourself to have to do something... even though you think your childhood is far from ideal, you don’t think about the deficits in it, in that respect. (client responds) I mean, you could say, you didn’t have any siblings, so you should have felt so loved, you had no competition! (client chuckles) But you didn’t feel that way. (client affirms) because that wasn’t the point. [00:31:30]

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, I should have, but (chuckles)...

THERAPIST: You should feel that way if your hypothesis is true.

CLIENT: (responds) (pause) I mean, it was performance driven. Like, my dad would be (inaudible) just say, you know, “Study hard, that’s all we want from you.” You know just like, “Get the highest marks,” and stuff and like... And I couldn’t, because (chuckles) I guess I was, you know, sad as a child and you know like... I didn’t want to study and... you know, I just wanted to read novels. (pause) Yeah. So... then I just, I guess I reasoned that, you know, “Okay, so I’m not loved, because I didn’t study hard.” (chuckles) So... [00:32:35]

THERAPIST: But that’s locating the problem inside you and not inside (ph) him.

CLIENT: Yeah. My mom did love me, she does love me, but she didn’t have the training to be like... overtly affectionate or like, you know like, vocalize her love. But she was herself, you know like... troubled (chuckles) with, you know, all the things that were going on. So she didn’t have the wherewithal to be effusive and, you know like, positive and loving, so...

THERAPIST: That’s very true.

CLIENT: (pause) So I guess I do have like, a performance-driven idea of love, that... you know, the brighter you shine, the better you do something, the more love you’re going to get, you know. [00:33:43]

THERAPIST: You have a performance-driven idea of a lot of things.

CLIENT: A lot of things?

THERAPIST: Self-esteem, too. You know, you feel good about yourself when you accomplish the sentence and this... (client affirms) You are very much, you’re very organized around being performance driven (client chuckles), which I guess, you know, is adaptive to the extent that it gives you the feeling of having control. (client affirms) (pause) But it also chronically leaves you feeling frustrated.

CLIENT: (responds) (pause) Yeah, and it’s like incredible to me when that doesn’t work and makes me fucking frustrated (chuckles) so frustrated. Like, last night like, they were talking about movies. This woman, you know, who I feel is so loved, is just like, naming all these movies that are like shit! I’m like... And I’m not, I’m being nice, I’m smiling and nodding, but in my head, I’m rolling my eyes! I’m like, “Are you seri , like... You have no taste!” (chuckles) [00:34:53]

I’m like, “How is this possible? I’ve seen... You know like, I have such good taste in this and that, you know like... but why is it that... yeah, you know? Why am I not winning?” (therapist affirms) But then I’m like, “No, I’m not!” (chuckles) And it’s just like it’s... it’s the person, it’s not performance, but then maybe a person has performance too. It’s like, she’s just, she just gives the impression of being so filled with love and like... that people don’t like... People are just attracted to that. Like, I would be attracted to that. I am, you know? No one wants to be... for a very extended period of time, with someone who is crying constantly and trying to prove something. You know? So... [00:36:00]

She was talking about her vacation with her family and her siblings. Like, she was happy and she was, you know, telling us all these stories and like... in a, you know like... Yeah, so it’s just... And you want to hear that. She has a loud voice and a loud laugh and like, you want to like... constantly be looking at it, you know? It doesn’t matter that she was wearing a brown, dull brown sweater and I was wearing a bright red sweater, you know? (chuckles) Like, yeah... It’s like, it’s like there is a tap inside of her that’s constantly on, so... (chuckles) [00:36:51]

But then, what do I do about it, how do I qualitatively, quantitatively feel about this, you know? Like, she spent her vacation with her family and her siblings. I spent my vacation, you know like, helping my friend apply for a PhD program, feeling anxious and frustrated and like, you know... (therapist affirms) (pause) Yeah, so I mean, you know like (chuckles)... What do we, how do we... what do you do about it? I don’t have a family or siblings, I didn’t like... yeah. I didn’t have... days off where I... could just, you know, chill with people I’ve known all my life. (chuckles) And cook with them and like... yeah. Once like, I had. I cooked dinner with... with my mom. [00:37:56]

THERAPIST: (pause) Well, you’re in a group, and you think about what some of these people in the group have that you don’t have (client affirms), in terms of people in your life, and you miss the fact that you’re with a group of people (client chuckles), and you’re in that group.

CLIENT: (responds) (pause) I try to not miss it, I mean like... I know that like, you have to build stuff, I’ve learned that. Instead of looking out constantly, I’m starting to think about looking in. (chuckles) And maybe also looking in... I mean, I was only going to stay there for an hour, but I ended up staying there for... you know, two hours and a half, so it’s like... so I must have felt invested, I wasn’t just like, there for like... “Oh, this is going to be pinpricks all along. Let’s just, you know, get tortured.” It wasn’t like that (therapist affirms), you know. [00:39:16]

It was like, you know like, there was food. I mean, even if you didn’t cook it or serve it, you appreciate it and like, you know, you make sure everyone has had enough, you know. So it’s like, everyone does that, so... I try to do that (chuckles), you know and like... talk to people and... and try and do things together, make plans for doing certain things together. But along with that, there is also like... you know, all that baggage that’s there with me constantly. You know like, feeling small or (inaudible) or insecure or thinking about stuff that they have that I don’t have. (chuckles) (therapist affirms)

(pause) Yeah, of course I’m jealous that, you know, she has a family to go home to for holidays, but then, you know, there are other people like me, too. Like, this other woman, she had a much worse vacation. Like, she like me, was here and she was going through some emotional shit and she didn’t do anything, so... At least mine wasn’t as bad as hers, you know. [00:40:31]

(pause) But there is something that happens in me that makes me feel like, “Oh, I’m superior, because I helped someone, or I did something, and I worked,” you know. I didn’t have the luxury of a family, so, you know, you’re you know like, simple-minded to enjoy that and I’m more superior because I... did something more complex (chuckles) you know?

THERAPIST: Because you feel it needs to be a competition.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don’t like that. I want to change that but, you know... (therapist affirms) I mean, I don’t think I’ll be like that where, I’m like, “Oh, yay, you have a family, yes! Good for you!” That’s fake! (chuckles) You know. I’ll still feel sad and I think that’s legitimate, that I’ll feel sad that I don’t have that, because everyone should want it, or have it, or something, you know? (therapist affirms) But it shouldn’t be like, a hierarchy or you know like, I shouldn’t (inaudible) like, find a high horse pronto and climb on it! (chuckles) you know? (therapist affirms) [00:41:41]

THERAPIST: (pause) Well, you feel that there are some things in finite quantities, like love. There is only so much love, and the more a sibling gets, the less another sibling gets. (client affirms) And there is only so much good feeling and someone gets, you know, the positive feelings, then there is none leftover. So it’s kind of a way of thinking that’s sort of organized around scarcity.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Why is that? (pause) I don’t know. I feel like, because there was like, scarcity when I was growing up, you know? (therapist affirms) Like, I could count the number of days when my dad was positive.

THERAPIST: But the scarcity had much more to do with what was inside or not inside him, not about what other people were or weren’t getting. (client responds) But it sort of morphed, for you, into sort of feeling like... a distribution of resources or mis-distribution rather than just sort of a lack. [00:43:00]

CLIENT: (responds) (pause) I mean, I feel the same way about David also.

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: Maybe there was a scarcity of love. There was only a little bit to be had, so like, I’ll do something you know like, whatever to like, get it. (therapist responds) Then it wasn’t like, this like, long... unending like... you know, expanse of time and togetherness that could be, you know, enjoyed no matter when or where. (chuckles) Obviously not, because (chuckles) you know, yeah, that will mean that we were happy together and we were, we are still together. (chuckles) But I feel that way with like... Nelson, too, now I feel it. I’m starting to, and that’s starting to scare me.

(pause 00:44:15 to 00:45:50)

THERAPIST: Well, Shilpee... (client affirms) we need to stop for today. So I’ll see you on Monday.

CLIENT: Yeah, thank you. Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thank you. (pause) Bye.

CLIENT: Stay warm! (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Thank you. You, too!

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