TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Hi.

THERAPIST: Hi.

CLIENT: I feel like I have so much to say that I don’t even know where to start.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: I mean, my birthday trip was fun. Of course, less than 24 hours before Stephanie was supposed to get on her flight and meet us there, her sister went into labor, so she had to cancel her whole trip.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: So that was disappointing, and I was a little upset. But I got over it, and Leti and I had a lovely time over there and had a very nice birthday dinner out and whatever. Then when she left, I was alone for all of Sunday which was like kind of fine because I was hanging out at the pool at our first hotel.

[00:00:58]

But then I had to transfer to our second hotel because that was supposed to be like Stephanie and me’s last night on beach area. It’s not the best place to be like alone because it’s just like tons of groups of people.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it’s mostly young people and it was the Super Bowl. I had a hard time, but it ended up fine. I got some dinner with myself. The room I had was like right on the pool level, like right opened up to the pool, and it was really nice and heated and nicely lit. So I took a nice solo night swim. Nobody else was there which was very nice. You know, just little things that like I couldn’t have done if I was with somebody else.

THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.

CLIENT: So that was nice. Of course the whole time I grappled with well, do I want to move here? The whole thing I can’t decide still. It’s just the weather. Maybe it’s that seasonal defective disorder or whatever affective.

THERAPIST: Affective, yeah.

CLIENT: Because I feel defective. (chuckles) That’s what my mom says it is, and she’s like “You really can’t afford to move there, there’s no jobs” and blah blah blah. And she’s right.

[00:02:04]

It’s just the weather is so much nicer, and like this is just awful. Then I came back kind of late on oh, and then Monday ended up fine because Betty [ph], my officemate, happened to be there at the same time. And so her and her mother picked me up in the afternoon, and we did a little bit of shopping and had lunch, and we were on the same flight even. We were able to get seats together.

THERAPIST: Nice.

CLIENT: It was nice. And then took a cab home together because she lives down the block from me, you know, so that worked out nice. So it was only really one day alone, so it wasn’t that bad. But it was disappointing not to have Stephanie there. I mean, obviously I understood, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: By all means. I started a journal which I’ve been trying to be consistent about writing in.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: And that’s been really good. I haven’t done that for quite a while, and I forgot how kind of soothing it can be for me and that it’s -

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: pretty cathartic, you know.

THERAPIST: Yes.

[00:03:01]

CLIENT: But then when I got back, you know, on Tuesday I got back and kind of went straight to bed because by the time I got back, it was 9:30 and I had work the next morning. I got to work and no assistant and the first day of events and just running all over the place and doing two jobs. It just kind of threw me right back into like hating everything. It was a really busy week, then we had that snowstorm on Wednesday and so I ended up staying home, to work from home, whatever. My class started that I didn’t really realize it was starting. I’m taking this adult development class to get back into -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: the school thing. So that caught me off guard. So it’s just like a really harried week. And then we have the museum silent auction -

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: that was supposedly like my last thing with them -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: on Thursday. And I like had a big thing with Lucas during the day about like getting the bid sheets printed and like whatever, it’s fine. I get there, the wife is there. I’m just decided to just go about my business. Like I’m just working with the people and trying to avoid doing things that Lucas is doing, trying to avoid working with him.

THERAPIST: Right.

[00:04:11]

THERAPIST: Trying to avoid being around him. His wife is helping out and volunteering. I spend the evening like trying to just talk to other people, talk to this guy that I have a nice rapport with. His name is Marvin that I’m going to ask out. Or that I have asked out, like “Oh, if you want to grab a drink” and [he may be interested] so I was like flirting. You know, Aiden was there bartending. I was trying I was drinking some wine and getting a little tipsy, trying to avoid Lucas and the wife. There were a couple of moments where I was alone with her, and I kind of like felt like I had to make conversation.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But it was very much just like “How are things?”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And she’s like “Oh, you know, no job” and I was like “Great, oh it’s a big adjustment” and then like escape.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And every time I would talk to both of them, I tried to like make my eye contact even with both of them so that it wasn’t like I was just talking to her husband. She’s standing right there. It was very awkward. And then Lucas kept coming up to me. Like he would find ways to not like I would be avoiding him.

[00:05:08]

THERAPIST: Right. He was finding excuses to come over to you.

CLIENT: Like two or three times, I was standing with another person and he came in between us like “Hey guys, what’s up?” You know, like and I’m like “Lucas, you could’ve just walked up to us. This is very awkward and uncomfortable.”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I think he was the one [that sucked]. Of course, when I started to get a little bit tipsy, I had a little bit of wine and then I started to kind of just like avoid him because I was angry. [Like I was just annoyed].

But anyway, I wake up on Friday morning kind of feeling like maybe I can just go in and do my job. Maybe I can keep working with the museum and just like yeah, this week has been hard getting back into it and thirty and whatever, but you know and then I woke up late. I’m on my way into work late as a result. I don’t know what happened. I think I must’ve just been tired and the event and whatever. Woke up late. I’m on my way in late.

[00:06:06]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And Lucas called me and he says “I don’t want you to ask me follow-up questions, but last night Michelle [ph] found out.” I like felt like at that moment, my heart started racing and like I felt -

THERAPIST: So he said “I don’t want you to ask me any follow-up questions”?

CLIENT: “I don’t want you to ask a lot of follow-up questions.”

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And then told me.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And I was like “Okay” and I was driving and like all confused and like rushing already, late to work (inaudible at 00:06:35).

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I like felt like everything just crumbled down around me. Like that’s what I felt like my whole world just crumbled down around me, and I wasn’t even standing on anything, and I was like having an out-of-body experience and floating and just looking at this rubble of what the fuck is going on.

[00:07:01]

I guess how he explains it was that they got home from the thing, like whatever. And then at bedtime, she was being really [tired and just going into] bed and he was like finally I’m sure she even cried the whole night. I’m sure he had just been like avoiding.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: [I guess just asked her] and she said “Just thinking” and he said “Thinking about what?” and she said “Probably the same thing you are.” Then he said that’s when his heart started racing, and she looks over at him, and he was like silent, and she put her hand over his chest and felt that his heart was racing. No, no. Before she felt his heart racing, I guess she had said “Did you have a relationship with Trina?” or “What was your relationship with Trina?”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then he proceeds to tell her that we did it twice, and that’s all I need to know. That we did it twice, and it doesn’t matter, and I can’t message him, and we can’t be friends. I can’t talk to him and I can’t call him.

[00:08:07]

And then he says so he prefaced it with “Don’t ask any questions.” Then he says he explains kind of what happened and then I say and then he says “What do you have questions about?” And my first question was “Did she cry?” Like I don’t know why. And then he was like “What? I’m not telling you that. Shut up. Fuck off. Like I don’t give a fuck. I don’t give a fuck.” And I was like “How are you going to tell me to ask a question and I ask a question, and then you say you don’t give a fuck?”

So we continued to talk and apparently from what it sounds like, he was like “It happened twice and I don’t want to talk about it.” And she’s like “So you want to talk about it again later because we’re going to talk about it.” And from what I understand, he was calling me from work and he’s like “I don’t know. I was kind of I don’t know how to feel because she didn’t like flip out or whatever. I mean, I guess she’s like handling it in her own way.”

[00:09:08]

And I’m like “So you haven’t talk to her about it yet? You guys still haven’t discussed it? You mean, she wasn’t like crying?” He’s like “Well, I woke up in the middle of the night and she wasn’t in the bed.” I was like “So you didn’t like make sure she wasn’t on a flight to China, or like go in the living room and stay up all night with her and smoke cigarettes and talk until she’s done talking?” What the fuck? He’s got so many issues that I can see from just everything. “And then you don’t talk about it? You get up and get dressed and go to work and call me? Like, what? And yell at me and then call me and yell at me basically, and then tell me not to ask any questions.”

Then at this point I start crying and start like I don’t know what to do. Stephanie doesn’t know. “Do I have to tell her because she’s going to maybe see that there’s tension at your house? Or what if she leaves you?” I’m thinking of all these things.

[00:10:08]

And he was like “You know, I don’t care about I don’t give a fuck about any of you people. She’s number one, I’m number two, and then you’re just at the end like I don’t even care. You guys don’t matter to me right now. She matters to me.”

And I’m like crying and I was like crying, sobbing like “I know that. Like to me she’s mattered more than like -” and he’s like oh no, he said “You’re not the victim.” I was like “I’m not I don’t think I’m the victim” even though obviously I am a little bit of a victim, but not really. And he goes “Then why are you crying like you are one?” I was like “I’m not crying because I think I’m a victim in this and whatever. I’m crying because this is fucking upsetting and it involves me.”

THERAPIST: And he just told you that you didn’t matter.

CLIENT: Basically. And then of course I’m crying and I’m like “I know she’s number one, and I know that you’re number two. I don’t even give a fuck about myself in this situation.” Then he’s like “Alright, take it easy, buddy.”

[00:11:05]

But then he started to like feel bad. But like no, you already just basically told me I’m not human in this situation and it doesn’t matter. Anything doesn’t matter. It just matters her and her feelings and what she’s and he’s like “Don’t call me. I’ll contact you.” I was like “Don’t contact me.” And then I go “I’ll e-mail your father and let him know I’m stepping down from the museum effective immediately.” And he said “What?” and I was like “I’m sorry. You want to be friends and I’m still going to be on the committee? Do you know how inappropriate that is?” He was like “I guess.”

So that was awful and the phone call just ended with him like “I’ll be in touch” and I was like “Whatever, best of luck.” I told Samson and Mandy. They were both like texting me and calling me like “Are you okay?” and whatever.

[00:12:05]

THERAPIST: I’m sorry for not getting back to you.

CLIENT: Oh, that’s fine. I just figured if you had something, you would let me know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, no. I also I should have gotten back to you in any case. I actually ended up having to leave early on Friday with all this stuff going on.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But yeah, I should have written.

CLIENT: Well, that’s why I got that because I texted you after I got that call too. [Perfect timing to have missed this appointment.]

THERAPIST: Right, right.

CLIENT: Anyway, and then I went home on Friday night. I think I went to bed really early. I like basically felt like I was just going through the motions on Friday. Like I felt numb, I just felt horrible. My mind was like rushing with guilt and shame and “Is this my fault? Am I a home wrecker? Is she going to leave him? I hope she doesn’t leave him. Maybe she should leave him. Hopefully they can work it out. He’s going to cheat on her with somebody else.” Just all these things, you know, in my head all day, like about the whole situation. Feeling horrible about Stephanie. What if she goes there and what if you know, the whole thing. What if they get divorced and then Stephanie asked why they got divorced, whatever.

[00:13:09]

I woke up on Saturday morning and was like shame-spiral and the first thing that I did was text Aiden and say “Listen, you told me if I was ever going to tell Stephanie to tell you ahead of time, and I’m telling her so I’m just going to let you know I’m telling her because this is awful.”

THERAPIST: Okay -

CLIENT: Aiden -

THERAPIST: Aiden knew?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh, I didn’t know that.

CLIENT: Oh, you didn’t? Oh no, Aiden has known the whole time. He doesn’t, I don’t think, know the extent to which we carried it, but he knows that it was still going on basically up until [when she came].

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. I don’t think I’m pretty sure I did not know that. In fact, I’m positive I didn’t know that.

CLIENT: Okay, sorry.

THERAPIST: [That’s alright].

CLIENT: Yeah, he knew because of one of the first times like Lucas came out half-dressed because when I was like sleeping over.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like I think the first night that it happened.

THERAPIST: Okay. So he knew but nobody told Stephanie.

CLIENT: Correct. It was this whole thing that he was mad at me because he was now keeping this lie from his girlfriend. So he said “Just make sure whenever you plan to tell her, you tell me ahead of time so she doesn’t call me and like ‘what the fuck.’“

[00:14:14]

And then he texted me back and he was like “I think that you’ll feel better. I’m sure everything will be fine. I almost told her myself last night, but I just couldn’t do it so I’m glad to hear this.” And I think he must’ve almost told her because -

THERAPIST: Lucas must have told -

CLIENT: Told Aiden that Michelle [ph] knows.

THERAPIST: That Michelle [ph] found out.

CLIENT: That’s what I was thinking because -

THERAPIST: Michelle [ph] found out from seeing the two of you together?

CLIENT: Oh yeah. So basically I’m sorry, I left that part out. So she basically told him that she knew, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And he gave it away because she asked him about it -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: and then his heart started racing and he went silent and got all choked up.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: He can’t lie. Apparently he can [via Skype]. And I mean, yeah, it makes sense. Like not only is she a woman and we know stuff, but when you’re not you know, the same as like a blind person, they can hear and smell and taste a little bit better, I think.

[00:15:10]

You know, she can’t understand the language as much so reading tone, body language and eye contact probably becomes a lot easier. That, you know, probably has something to do with it. She’s observing a lot. You observe a lot more.

THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.

CLIENT: So anyway, that’s how she knew. Aiden must have figured it out or came home and they were fighting or who knows, you know?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So I told Stephanie. I texted her and I was like “We need to meet up” and we met up and she’s like “Okay, it’s just going to take a while for me to process this.” She’s like “So, you’re going to be my friend” or whatever but just feels let down and this whole year and the whole thing. She just has to kind of take some time to get over it which makes sense. I’m just hoping she doesn’t try to like hold it over my head, like punish me. (pause)

[00:16:09]

But yeah, so that happened. I mean, she was bound to find out one way or another, whether it was me or somebody else or whatever. Not Stephanie, his wife.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And he unfriended me on Facebook.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I haven’t heard from him. You know, I was asking Stephanie, I was like “So how do we play this? Like if he tries to call me or text me, like whether it’s to check in on me or to tell me they’re not breaking up or tell me they are breaking up or whatever.” She’s like “You go silent. You just don’t answer. You’re done.” And I think that’s right. And I’m certainly not ready to like I wouldn’t know what to say to him.

Stephanie also the other thing that Stephanie was upset about with the whole situation is how he treated me. And she said the same thing. She’s like “He told you that you don’t matter, so you’re not human to him. So you can do whatever the fuck you want and thank God you’re finally telling me. You suck for not telling me before, but fuck him.”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

[00:17:08]

CLIENT: “For me, you’re number one, Aiden is number two, and they can go fuck themselves.” Because I told her how he said “She’s number one, I’m number two, and you guys can go fuck yourselves.” So that was nice to know that I have her support there, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: We decided there’s no reason why or how Lucas there’s no reason why Lucas should know that she knows. Like there’s no reason to specifically tell him. If he finds out, I don’t care because obviously I’m nothing, so who cares who I told. So he does find out, good.

THERAPIST: Another reason would be that you [are] nothing and you get to take care of yourself.

CLIENT: Well, right.

THERAPIST: By doing things like, you know, telling one of your best friends.

[00:18:04]

CLIENT: Yeah. But, I mean I don’t know. I don’t have there’s nothing else I am going to be communicating with him about, it looks like.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: He did this, as far as I’m concerned.

THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.

CLIENT: Like he’s the married one. I’m single. Like I can do whatever the fuck I want. (pause) But it’s all very [isolating] and, you know, I was even more confused about like how are you going to make me a priority in the situation by calling me before you’ve even fully discussed it with your wife and then tell me I don’t matter? (pause)

[00:19:00]

Like that’s what he like he showed me I mattered by telling me first. Then he tells me it doesn’t matter though. Don’t ask questions don’t ask follow-up questions. (pause) Like he could’ve waited [a month] before even telling me that she knows or never like it doesn’t you know. Or waited I don’t know.

THERAPIST: (pause) It might be a little bit of some of the stuff with Franklin [ph] in that it’s possible I’m just reading this wrong from this distance, but it sounds like he was kind of using you somewhat in calling you.

[00:20:02]

Like he wanted to let you know, he sort of wanted some support, he wanted to talk about it. He wasn’t up to talking about it with her.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And so who is he going to call?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And he wanted to call you for his own benefit.

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm. It doesn’t have anything to do with me.

THERAPIST: But had, yeah, I guess no interest in how you might react.

CLIENT: No, or how it might affect me, or what I might want to talk about, or what questions I might actually have.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, it seems like he kind of demonstrated that pretty clearly.

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm.

THERAPIST: At least that was how it felt to you, I think.

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm.

THERAPIST: And (pause) I guess (pause)

[00:21:09]

Again, at least in terms of your sense of it, he’s being a total douchebag and it doesn’t seem to me like you remain (pause) I think what’s throwing me is some of the stuff with Franklin [ph], it’s a little like you really don’t want to see it that way.

CLIENT: Hmm. Yeah, like I’m definitely making it my mind more like well, he’s just going to miss me so much that he like wanted to call me first or like whatever.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: As opposed to just he needed to satisfy his own feelings about what he wanted to do at that moment or whatever.

[00:22:00]

THERAPIST: Right. And if it was a different kind of call, I mean, [if you’re going to attack him] on the phone when he called, I could see how that would be. I’m not saying he doesn’t feel that. I have no idea. But it’s not how he treated you.

CLIENT: No. (pause) He treated me like an asshole. Like just completely “Why are you crying?” and then kind of backed off when I like screamed at him why I’m crying. But still not really. Still just very like “Don’t do anything. Don’t call. Don’t message.”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: “Don’t say anything.” And then I was like “Well, if I’m keeping up this other lie that you’ve now created, when were the two times? What if I get asked? What if she messages me? Who the hell knows? Is the first time and the you don’t matter. Who cares, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. You don’t remember. It doesn’t matter.” I was like “Alright.” And just like I don’t know how cavalier to act like I don’t know.

[00:23:11]

THERAPIST: You seemed to have the idea that you were going to be nice and supportive and comforting with him.

CLIENT: Right, like “I’m so sorry. What do you need me to know? What do you need me to say?”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I mean, I was asking those questions, but I was certainly upset still and angry at him and angry at myself, you know.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: And angry at the fact that I was even at that fucking, stupid auction to begin with when I had wanted to try to get off that committee for a while.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So yeah, I think when he was like “Not a lot of follow-up questions,” he was hoping I would just be like “Okay, just keep me posted on what I need to do.”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like no, he knows me well enough to know that I’m going to have a reaction and I think that -

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: that’s why he well, whatever. I don’t feel that I should excuse the way that he treated me, and I’m glad that Stephanie felt the same and Samson [ph] felt the same and Mandy also felt the same. They were all like “Are you fucking kidding me? You don’t matter?”

[00:24:11]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: “If you didn’t matter, then why did it go on for so long?”

THERAPIST: Right. Yeah, it’s right, as you said, why is he calling you in the first place? I mean, it’s very -

CLIENT: You couldn’t just send a text and be like “She found out.” You know, whatever, like anything.

THERAPIST: Well, it’s sort of using you.

CLIENT: Yeah, it’s totally using me. The whole thing is using me. And I was using him to a certain extent with some things, but it’s just like less blatant, I guess.

THERAPIST: (pause) I would guess you were also a lot more considerate.

CLIENT: Yeah. Not of his wife, I suppose, but also he was the least considerate of his wife. She’s not my wife.

[00:25:05]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: (pause) And I mean, he was saying things like, you know, “This is not your problem. This is not your fault. I created this, and I pulled you into this, and now you’re in this because of me.” But like, so? I mean, it doesn’t mean you get to treat me like shit. (long pause)

[00:26:03]

It’s just the whole thing is very unfortunate. I mean, he’s got some issues and why did he get married in the first place? Or why did he with me? I don’t know. (long pause)

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: (pause) I mean, he’s the one in the worse situation because now he’s in a marriage where his wife does not trust him at all, probably. Or if she does, then I think she’s stupid.

THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm. (long pause)

[00:29:00]

Do you know what made you so anxious and upset on Friday when you found out that she knew? I mean, it seems as though you kind of felt in some way that you were in really big trouble.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think well, because I’ve been on the other end of finding out the person that you thought was faithful was not being faithful. And I think just that feeling of having caught that for somebody or having been a part of what might be that same feeling for another woman was really, really heart-wrenching for me and really guilt-provoking and really just horrible. And I think I also was worried that I was causing a divorce, that it would cause a divorce.

[00:29:59]

I think also just the understanding that it meant I can really never talk to or see Lucas again was also very painful. But there was really a very overwhelming feeling of just like, I have to get out of this city. Like I have to move. I can’t believe that this is horrifying. It’s mortifying. It’s just horrible. Like how can I stay here if anybody knows that I did this? What if she ever sees me again? I can never look in her eyes you know, just yeah, like I was in huge trouble. (pause) And I think it was the combination of just, you know, feeling sad that I was making somebody feel like perhaps I felt last year. And also like the feeling of just, am I causing a divorce right now, you know?

[00:31:06]

THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.

CLIENT: And I think just the feeling, you know, now Stephanie. I have to tell her.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And, you know, just all this stuff. And Aiden is going to hate me if I cause a divorce. You know, Stephanie is going to question why I can never be around them again, and I have to tell her. And it really did feel like my whole world was just like, bleh.

THERAPIST: Imploding.

CLIENT: Yeah. And these idiotic choices that I made were just totally blowing up in my face, and I thought I had gotten away with it or something. (long pause)

[00:32:33]

THERAPIST: I mean, I guess you felt [different ways] at different times in that like a few minutes ago here, you were saying, you know, “It’s not really my problem. I’m not the one who was unfaithful. I can do whatever the fuck I want.” But clearly you were feeling very different from that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: On Friday morning. Very responsible. And very much like implicated.

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm, right.

THERAPIST: And in trouble. (long pause)

[00:33:39]

My guess is some of the difference comes from hearing from your friends and maybe a little bit from me. (pause) You know, like how they thought he was acting -

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: by treating you.

CLIENT: Right, definitely. It definitely took some time for me to kind of that’s why Friday I think was so difficult for me because I just I felt very implicated. I felt very much at fault.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I did this. Until I spoke to my friends who were like “You didn’t do this.”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: “And he just treated you like the worst possible thing he could have ever treated you like in this situation.”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And, you know, I was then able to kind of consider it differently. I mean, now that it seems like she may be staying or, you know, from what Aiden Stephanie said that Aiden said they didn’t hang [with her] on Saturday night.

[00:34:38]

They were just at their they were hanging out at their friend’s house, Phillip’s house, but that from what Aiden made a comment, something like “I think everybody is just trying to move on.” And so now that I kind of feel like maybe their marriage isn’t ending, I feel less at fault, you know.

THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.

CLIENT: And kind of like eh, it’s their problem now, then. Fine, that’s his problem.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: He’s got to make up for his thing now.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Whereas if she leaves, I’m a home wrecker. Or I feel that way.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Even though it’s not, you know, a situation where she’s walked in on it or she’s found out that he’s done it, you know, when she was out with her friends. Or took advantage of, you know, whatever.

THERAPIST: Right. Or where, at least as I understand it, [I don’t think] you said that you really ran after him.

[00:35:34]

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: And he sort of pushed you away and you kept I mean, when I think of what the home wrecker stereotype -

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s like “Please, please” and you know -

THERAPIST: You have some ulterior motive.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Or you were going after him.

CLIENT: And that wasn’t the case at all. I mean, like we were after each other but it wasn’t, you know, there was never a time where I was -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, “Please don’t leave me.”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Or “You said you would be for” (pause) You know, a big part of me is like all I can think is, you know, I hope she’s not holding me responsible.

[00:36:28]

I hope she thinks I made a bad mistake and that she’s just holding him like I can’t help feeling like that either, you know. Not like “I hope she likes me” because like, obviously.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Whatever. But I hope that she doesn’t think that I was being that home wrecker character, I guess, is the more poignant part of that thought process. (pause) I don’t know. I felt awkward at him even being like kind of admitting to me that he felt like he didn’t really like he felt strange about the fact that she didn’t flip out. It was like, I don’t want to know the extent to which you don’t know your own wife’s personality.

THERAPIST: Right.

[00:37:27]

CLIENT: He didn’t say those kinds of things just makes the case stronger for me not feeling that bad about having done what I did.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like you don’t know how your wife handles traumatic news?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: That makes me uncomfortable somehow. I mean, he knows how I would handle traumatic news.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: (pause) Which is maybe partly why he got so mad at me, upset at me crying and, you know, acting like the victim because he didn’t see her do that and he feels it makes him feel even worse than the one who shouldn’t feel -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: you know, who he feels -

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:38:09)

CLIENT: You know.

THERAPIST: It’s backwards.

CLIENT: Right, is the one that’s like (makes crying noises), you know.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And maybe that’s why he’s like “You’re not the victim” because she didn’t have that reaction, and he didn’t know how to deal with that. I don’t know. But the whole thing made me uncomfortable, and it was just like you’re making even more of a point than when you were telling me you loved me that you shouldn’t be married to this woman. Like, you don’t know. She doesn’t know you.

[00:38:38]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (pause) And then I feel bad that I start to feel sorry for him, like I have before. Sorry for him that he ended up in this situation where he’s married to this person that he probably shouldn’t be. Sorry for him that now he’s maybe going to have a guilt trip his whole life or have to feel like he’s really, you know, making up for this his entire life which is a horrible thing to feel, I think. Even though he you know, it’s backwards. It’s very convoluted, all of this.

THERAPIST: Well, maybe there’s a way a lot of it is pretty consistent. I mean, maybe the way you tend to feel is maybe in various ways, you work really hard to kind of let him off the hook.

[00:39:39]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And to put the problems on you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It seems like that’s what -

CLIENT: No, I think that’s fair to say.

THERAPIST: part of what’s going on. (pause) And I think it actually probably fits in pretty closely with something that we’ve talked about. I think probably a big reason that you do that is to avoid feeling disappointed in him.

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm.

THERAPIST: It’s much better to make it you fucking up and at fault and this, that and the other thing, pathetic and he’s sort of whatever, than to be disappointed in another guy.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Which I think is what you are pretty damn certain is going to happen anyway.

[00:40:37]

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: (pause) That seems like maybe what you may be trying to fend off.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I think I felt like I was a little bit coming to terms with just the whole situation and getting over it. She’s here and that’s over and dating and whatever.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: And yet not feeling that disappointed with him, actually. And then this happened and just kind of threw all that -

THERAPIST: You kind of felt disappointed when we talked about it. I mean, that was a few weeks ago.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I know that may not be your most recent feeling, but what I recall is that kind of the more closely we looked at some of it, especially some of the more recent stuff -

CLIENT: Right.

[00:41:33]

THERAPIST: the worse he looked.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think that had more to do with me being disappointed in how he promised that he was going to be a friend.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Which maybe he knew himself and I should’ve just listened because clearly then when we got in the same room, he -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: wasn’t able to not be around me and not be flirtatious.

THERAPIST: We should stop for now.

CLIENT: Okay, but I’ll see you Friday.

THERAPIST: See you on Friday.

CLIENT: Thanks.

END TRANSCRIPT