TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: So last Friday when I didn�t come in �

THERAPIST: Oh, before I forget, I have a question. You couldn�t possibly come at 8:30 just this Monday, could you, instead of 4:30?

CLIENT: Yeah. I�m not working either way, so actually 8:30�s probably better, because then I can just get it over with. Especially since it�s my day off.

THERAPIST: Thanks.

CLIENT: So last week I started with a phone call that made me feel like my world was falling to pieces around me. And then this Friday started with a phone call that made me feel so hopeful. I don�t know, just hopeful in the general sense.[1:05] I was walking to work and this girl that lives next door to me that I never talk to, but sometimes I see her walk out of her house a little bit before me and see her walking by and stuff. Probably nobody that I�d ever be friends with. But we ended walking in step, and so I just introduced myself and oh, you live next door. And had a nice conversation and, I don�t know, sometimes being nice to people makes you feel good. I was like, okay, I�m stopping at Dunkin� Donuts. I was like, Happy Valentine�s Day. Whatever. And then after I was leaving from Dunkin� Donuts, Stephanie had sent me a message that said, Happy Valentine�s Day. And I was like, bah humbug. Ha, ha, ha. You know. And then my uncle called me to tell me that my cousin had given birth. And so it was like, oh, my God. Last Friday I was in such a different place at the start of my day, and I�m so excited. It�s so funny. I was just talking to Sharon yesterday and I was like, how are you feeling? [2:01] I said, are you ready? She said, oh, I�m so ready. �Cause she was due on March 1st. And I was like, do you think you�re going to go early? She said, God, I hope so. Then she goes, but any day besides today, because of this storm and also Valentine�s Day. And then, the baby must have heard us and was like, meh, I�m coming out. And I guess last month on the full moon she had talked to her sister, my other cousin and told her, I have a feeling, I feel like I�m going to give birth on the next full moon, which is today. And the last thing she wanted was a Valentine�s Day baby, but she�s got it. So that was really exciting news. I�m going to go next weekend after they�ve had a chance to settle in and whatever. But my uncle is very excited.

THERAPIST: Oh, that�s wonderful.

CLIENT: It was just such a difference from how I was feeling at this time last week.

THERAPIST: Yes. Much better.

CLIENT: And I actually am � I was like � didn�t even think. I think. I put the whole Valentine�s Day thing out of my head, because I was like, I just � I�m too busy at work to care, and I have a lot of school work. And like, this week kind of � This week was good, actually. After the whole Lucas thing, Stephanie a and I had some conversations, and she�s having a hard time and she�s mad at me and upset. She feels more like, betrayed.

THERAPIST: �Because you didn�t tell her.

CLIENT: �Cause I didn�t tell her. [3:18] And, you know, it�s a whole thing. So we still have some stuff to work through, but we�re fine. And that, you know, was good to talk about some of that stuff and whatever. It appears from all I can tell from my Facebook minimal stalking, I can�t really see much from either of their pages. But it appears that Lucas and Joshua (ph) are moving on.

THERAPIST: Gotcha.

CLIENT: From what it seems like and from what Stephanie has heard just peripherally from Aiden (ph). And like, it kind of made me, once I kind of found that out, I was like, eh, all right. Good. They�re there. I�m here. For all they know, I�ve disappeared. I don�t even want them to know that I exist. And I feel better. And part of it is a little bit like � I don�t know. I just � the whole thing felt bad, and then once I found out that they�re probably going to be fine, I feel like an asshole for saying this, but it was almost like good. Then that�s what she gets. If she�s going to stay with a cheater, she should stay with a cheater or something like that. You know what I mean? [4:28]

I don�t know how to describe it. It�s a little mean-spirited, is I guess what I�m trying to get at.

THERAPIST: Right. (inaudible at 4:36)

CLIENT: Like, it�s her funeral.

THERAPIST: I hear you�re saying like, if that�s what she decides then that�s what she deserves.

CLIENT: Exactly. And I guess maybe that�s related to, because I felt like if I decide to stay with � by you, then it�s because I deserve to be treated like shit. I mean, and who knows if she�s putting on some ruse and she�s going to get her green card and be like, hey. But I doubt that. You know, he was posting up like, to my Valentine. Whatever.[5:10] But because of that, like as a result of them being okay and Stephanie and me being okay and I had a really good work week. I spoke to Miriam (ph). I let Miriam know, I said, listen, I�m extremely overwhelmed. I�m having a really hard time prioritizing. I�m procrastinating on things that are easier to just do, �cause I�m focused on all this. She says, make a list of all your priorities, and alongside those priorities list one or two possible solutions to making it less overwhelming for you, and then we�ll meet.

And we met and we talked about it, and just like the practice of writing it down and being a little bit more clear cut about what I needed to do and talking through with her what we felt would be like, okay do this first, do this second, do this third. Tell this person to do this. Wait until your new assistant comes. Was really, really helpful. And then the other thing that was helpful is that she talked to Glenda (sp) and was like, just work as much overtime as you need. I understand that sometimes it�s easier to come in earlier or stay later when nobody�s here and get stuff done. Do it. So, that�s great. So in the meantime I�m kicking butt at work, and I�m making a little extra money.[6:23] So that�s felt really good. And so the week has felt really good all around. I mean, little bit more stressful. I went out on a second date with the guy that lives around me. I don�t know if I told you. It�s a Match.com guy. I went out on a date with him and it went pretty well, before Houston.

THERAPIST: I don�t know if I knew about this.

CLIENT: Well, whatever. And, you know, I liked him well enough. It�s a funny guy. Whatever. He seems fine. And we went out again on Tuesday and we had a nice time. We had drinks and dinner in (inaudible at 7:01) and we were there from 8:15 to 10:45, a decent amount of time, you know. And I thought the conversation was going well. Then I � he had walked down the street �cause he lives down the block. And I offered to drive him home, �cause of course, it had gotten colder at that point. And I drove him home and we get to his building, and I realize what building it was and I was like, oh cool. I know this building. I remember when they were converting it from a school house into condos. [7:29] And I go, you have a loft or something? Just, really just asking. And of course, he�s like yeah, do you want to come up and see it? And I was, in my head, bad move, buddy. But then I just tried to be flirtatious and looked around and was, oh, maybe some time when there�s better parking �cause no snow, ha ha. You know. And then he was like, ha ha, there�s plenty of parking. And then I thought he was going to go in for a kiss, so then I did, but I think he wasn�t and then it was kind of awkward and it was extremely forced on my part. I just was doing it because felt like, it was the thing you do, was the right thing to do or something.

THERAPIST: It can be uncomfortable.

CLIENT: It�s very uncomfortable. And then he was getting out, and I was like, okay, so you want to do this again sometime? He says, the next few weeks are crazy. I�ll be in touch. I�ll be in touch. Who says that? And then, he didn�t even text me, hey hope you got home safely, like thanks again for the ride. Like, whatever. So I think totally, brush off, it feels like. But I don�t understand it.

THERAPIST: Right. �Cause one minute he�s asking you if you want to come up, and the next minute he�s saying yeah, right, I�ll be in touch.

CLIENT: Exactly.[8:40] And like, I was talking to Stephanie about it and she�s like, first of all, I feel you somehow have to have a little bit of a sense these guys should be falling in love with you head over heels first date. It�s a process. You have to get to know. I was like, no. I understand that it�s a process. But what I�m complaining about is like, you don�t call to say like, hope you got home safe after I drop you off? That was what I was complaining about. And then she was like, but I do agree I feel that a fucking date is kind of fast to ask somebody to go upstairs, even for Jewish standards. And, you never go upstairs unless you�re ready for the possibility of sex. And I agree with that. And that�s why I was like, no way. And it was like, 11:00. What the hell are you talking about, dude? I don�t want to fucking see your loft. [9:21] Like, send me a fucking picture. I don�t care. And I was just making conversation. Like, and that�s what somebody else said to me, like, one of my co-workers was like, well do you think he misinterpreted his asking if he had a loft? I�m like, possibly. But that�s like pretty � that�s a big jump. You know like, we�re 30. I�m not like, so what do you have, a loft? Like, how�s that work?

[Laughter]

I was just like, oh, what�s that, like a loft? So I don�t know. And he hasn�t called. And so then Stephanie agreed. She said no, you don�t call. You wait and you see. And like, if it�s too long, then you don�t. And this other guy, the 37-year-old. So there�s the 37-year-old guy that�s a friend of Jillian�s boyfriend that I went out with twice, and it seemed okay. But then on the second day he mentioned an ex-girlfriend once. One too many times, which is once. No, he mentioned her like, four times in different scenarios. And he � like I even know. You just say, a friend. You don�t say like, oh and this same ex-girlfriend. You don�t say that. [10:28] You just say a friend. Who cares? You�re lying. No big deal. I was on vacation with a friend. You don�t talk about an ex. Like, when people ask me on dates about that, I just totally bypass it, because it�s not appropriate. Anyway, and on top of that he talked a little bit like he smokes weed, also. Like, he�s also a total pothead. And he wanted to talk about that forever about finding weed on trips and am I going to smoke in Texas. I was like, oh, my God. I don�t want to talk about this. This is boring. Sure, maybe we can fucking smoke sometime. It�s just not � like, what are you 14? [11:10] And then he mentioned it again that he can�t wait to smoke, �cause he was going on a trip. And I was okay, great. And then, I told him, one night I was hanging out with my � he was like, oh, what did you do last night. I was like oh, I had dinner and I stopped at my friend, Becca�s house. And he�s like, does Stephanie smoke? And then he like, sends me a picture of the bowl that he bought and he�s like, look at this. The store around the corner was closing and I bargained and got it for $15. The guy wanted $30. And I�m like, what are we, in college? Why are you sending me pictures of the fucking piece you just bought? I don�t care. We�re 30. Talking about smoking weed is not cool. It�s fine that we both do it and sure, that�s something we have in common, perhaps. But anyway, so it really turned me off. And so we were actually at a � Oh, and another turn-off was that we were trying to make a plan for this week, and he was like, how about Friday? And I was like, oh, and I was like, yeah sure. But like, it�s Valentine�s Day, so eh. And he read it as like � and I don�t think he meant to do a like, Valentine�s Day date. And he read it as like � I meant it as I don�t really know if I want to hang out with you. Or like, any dude that I don�t care about. But he was like, oh yeah, that�s true. Restaurants will probably be crazy, which is also a valid fact. And he was like, we could just like, hang out at my place and smoke and order take-out. And all I could think was, no, no, no. This is the third date. [12:43] That�s what you do when you�re in a relationship with somebody already. Like, I�m not going to hang out and smoke weed and eat pizza with you. I don�t � And so now I�m totally � I�m okay, well, I figured out why he�s 37 and single, because he�s 12. And so anyway, so that happened this week. The bad date this week. Then I was super productive at work. Like, I stayed late and got home late, and at a little dinner and went to sleep, and that felt good. I need to get back into my working out, which I am going to do. I went to physical therapy yesterday. She was like, okay, do your exercise and you�ll be okay. And I�m taking this adult development class which I�m going to love. And I�m going to talk about a lot with you, I�m sure. It�s a psychology class. So I was like � It�s Robert Keegan. Have you heard that name?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Okay. I figured. And it�s an ed school course, though. But I love it, so far. It�s a shit ton of work.

THERAPIST: He�s got this whole theory of adult development.

CLIENT: Exactly. That�s right. And it�s like his thing, so it�s really � but I�m really excited. And this morning, so I�m a little behind in work, so that�s the other thing. I just have so much school work that I can�t even � I�m like, you know what Oh, yes. So wait � this was my whole theory after the whole bad date. And then after the Lucas thing, it kind of feels resolved. And the Stephanie thing feels resolved. [14:05] and the guy too immature to date, 37, whatever. I was like, you know what. I need to step back from this whole contrived dating thing. It�s not working for me. I don�t like this game. I don�t like wondering if they�re going to call. I don�t like, you know, whatever. And I want to work and I want to do my class and be on top of that and, you know, whatever. I want to do my work out. I want to spend time � Stephanie and I have all these plans to try to do yoga classes together and some things that are healthy, but also spend some quality time. And like, making more plans with friends. That�s what I want to do and just, maybe I�ll meet people, maybe I won�t. But it just feels a lot more controllable than the whole, I�m going to be on Match and see who�s messaging me and like, messaging people back and making all these fucking dates that I don�t really want to, because I just need to go home and do my homework.[15:05]. And coming to that kind of realization feels really good. And I think that, you know, alongside taking this course, which is really introspective, I mean, it�s not like a survey course. It�s not like we�re just looking at all these different � It�s like actually like, how do we �

THERAPIST: (inaudible due to simultaneous dialogue at 15:27)

CLIENT: Exactly. And how do I apply these things to my own life and how I interact with people that I work with. And I�m writing in my journal. I started this journal, I think I mentioned. And that�s been awesome. I just really like it. I�m really on board with my journal. And yes, I think overall it�s night and day from how I felt last Friday.

THERAPIST: Well, that�s terrific.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I�m not on more medication. The same ten milligrams. Like, for a little while I was like, maybe I should talk to him about going up to 15 or 20, but I�m not feeling side effects and if I�m � it�s not so many bad days that I feel like, oh, maybe 20 would be better, then I want to try to stick with the ten and arrange other things like, work more on my therapy and whatever. So I watched half of the lecture for this week this morning, �cause I couldn�t sleep. My thoughts were annoying me and I was, you know, just watched part of the lecture, since I have a bunch of work due today that I haven�t started on. And he said something. He gave an example � hold on. I�m going to dig out my notes, because I just wanted to talk about this with you. This is not why I brought the notebook. I actually have to do school work for class. He was talking about three different approaches of adult development and he was talking � and the third one was like, the notion that the past � Like, connecting your present experiences with things that happened in the past, and making those connections, if that makes any sense. And he was talking about � he gave this example of � and making good use of insights, basically is what this notion is, I think.[17:43] And he�s talking about this couple that he used to do couples therapy, and he�s talking about this couple and this woman had developed chronic fatigue, and is was affecting their relationship. So they went into therapy. He was not an insensitive guy. This is the example he�s giving. He�s so sensitive that he was just fully focused on feeling for her as opposed to looking at what he feels about the situation. And that it took all this therapy, and they kept going to therapy, kept doing therapy or whatever, until finally he touched upon this memory of when he was a child and his mother was very sick and that he would have to visit her in this dark room where all the lights were off and she was in bed and it was a very scary thing, and how he realized that he�s connecting that to his wife now with the chronic fatigue. And the idea was that okay, he got that insight, but she still has chronic fatigue. So he realized that he�s feeling xyz about this situation because of his own past memories of this kind of sickness with someone he cares about so deeply. But okay, now that he realizes that, then what to do what to do with insight. And it made me think about my therapy, �cause it�s always what I�m always talking about. So I realize that my father being how he is affects my choice of men. Okay, now what? So what do I do with that? I have no. That�s it. I have no �

THERAPIST: That�s where you�re going.

CLIENT: That�s right. I have no elaboration on that point. But I just thought it was interesting and it�s not an uncommon thing, apparently to be able to connect past things with present in terms of how you�re dealing with things and have that insight, but then it�s okay, like what and what? And I�m still single. Or, you know, and the wife still has chronic fatigue. [19:48] (pause)

THERAPIST: [20:52] To my mind, that�s an important question for you. And I think � I know it feels to you like a kind of obvious question and one that � Well, I think there�s a lot going on there, so let me explain it like this. [22:06] So with the couple that he�s describing, I assume � and this is sort of like, I�m going to get this back to you, but I�m just starting it out. I assume that his pretty exclusive focus on her is causing problems. You know, either he�s suffocating her or he�s getting resentful about it, or it�s making her feel guilty like she�s taking advantage of him, or something. And yet apparently, he can�t stop, which is a big part of the problem. And presumably why they�re talking about it in couples therapy, because he is not really well in control of his acting that way, and maybe didn�t even see that he was doing that. Then he has this memory, and presumably that helps him to understand that � a memory like he was very scared, very worried about his mom, probably creeped out, and you didn�t make a connection explicit between that and caretaking, but I�m going to assume, just for the sake of whatever, that he couldn�t stay with his own sense of fear and sense of being creeped out.[23:37] So he became all about her and trying to make her better, because then he wouldn�t have to be so scared.

CLIENT: And disappointed he was losing his wife, was also a them that he talked about.

THERAPIST: Right. It started with his mother and then his wife. So he can�t bear to look at � he can�t bear to look at the fear he�s feeling. He can�t really contain that. What he�s got to do is swing into action, do something to fix the problem to sort of �

CLIENT: Oh, look. This guy�s acting a lot like me.

[Laughter]

THERAPIST: Right. And so then the question is we know this, what do we do? Who cares? You know, that�s nice. It�s interesting. It�s sort of academically interesting, but not actually pragmatically helpful, because I mean, what does he do? [24:31] Well, it seems to me to ask that question for that guy � I mean, he says okay, well so fine. So, you know, she still has chronic fatigue and yeah, I can�t help helping her, because I�m so scared. So what do I do? I mean, how do I fix this? He still seems very much in the grip of that fear, if that�s what he�s saying. Presumably, he wouldn�t have to actually do anything if he was just saying, oh, my God. I�m so fucking scared she�s going to die. I�m going to lose her the way I lost my mother, and I couldn�t deal with that. When I was worried I was going to lose my mother it was so overwhelming and I just cannot handle that and it�s driving me crazy, and I can�t even stop to think about it. I�ve got to get so busy fixing it. It isn�t even working and in fact, driving us apart which is a problem in the first place. So I guess looking at it that way, the question of what to do seems like not actually really having insight or something. Do you know what I mean? Right. If he could deal with being scared, there�s nothing he would have to do. I mean, yes, she would still have chronic fatigue, yes it would still be frightening. Presumably he�d want to help her in any way that was actually going to help, but he wouldn�t be behaving so neurotically. You know, he�d be able to deal with being scared and then doing what was actually going to help her and the two of them and him. [26:11] And � so you see where I�m going, obviously. And I think for you, it�s a little clearer, because I know more about you than I do about him. Where I think actually this question relates to your tendency to feel disappointed. I mean, in a way the okay, well that�s interesting, but what do I do question, I think for you � I�m not sure if this is right, but it makes me think about Ping-Pong. You know, where maybe, obviously there are times that I�m just wrong, but I think there are other times where like we sort of point as in the example you�d describing to something that you�re upset about and really struggling with. And you say well okay, I guess that makes sense, but what do I do? And it changes things around from, you know, I Trina am really hurt, really upset, really frightened, really angry, really whatever to you know, actually this is kind of disappointing, Ethan (ph) because even if that�s interesting it doesn�t really give me any way to focus.

CLIENT: Right. �Cause it�s like, now I know what the problem is, I still can�t fix it.

THERAPIST: Right. And I think there�s something about shifting into being disappointed like that, that sucks, but is also pretty familiar and comfortable. It�s not an anxious place for you in a way. I think it also relates to what you�re saying this week, which is actually that people have not been disappointing, Miriam and Stephanie. Actually, even if I think in a way like (inaudible at 28:02) like, I think if she broke up with him, you would feel more like the problem. And she did not, so she�s the problem, so she�s carrying this one for you in a sort of a, you know, whatever way.

CLIENT: Totally fucked up way.

[Laughter]

THERAPIST: You know, she�s (inaudible due to simultaneous dialogue at [28:28]

CLIENT: Yes. Exactly. Miriam didn�t disappoint, she didn�t dis appoint, Stephanie didn�t disappoint. And my class didn�t disappoint.

THERAPIST: Right. And you�re having a good week.

CLIENT: I mean, disappointment has been a theme that my mother has been talking about a lot. Just like, there�s just been a lot of things that have been disappointing for you. Like � can I � wait. Can I go back to you just saying Ping-Pong? What were your referring to?

THERAPIST: I�m hitting a ball to you when I say, hey, Trina there�s this thing that you�re upset about.

CLIENT: I�m like okay here, take it. Give me a solution.

THERAPIST: And then you�re saying, well what do I do with it. (inaudible due to simultaneous dialogue at 29:11).

CLIENT: I grasped on that, because it�s just interesting and struck me because like, that was one of the things that � well, it has nothing to do with this, but when I was � when my parents shoved me into therapy at age eight, because they were getting divorced and they were therapists, and they were like eh, therapy. One of the things that I remember saying, and that I think the therapist said to my mother, because of course, they were reporting everything back at this point. That was the point.

THERAPIST: It was unclear who it was for.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: The way you presented it, it�s like your parents were so worried about you, that it was partly just to assuage their anxiety.

CLIENT: I think it was that, and particularly like my mother, you know.

THERAPIST: I don�t know if it helped you. I don�t know if it did.

CLIENT: My memories include a really nice sweater from The Limited she bought me for my birthday or something and Snickers and soda every time I came to the office.

THERAPIST: The therapist bought you a sweater?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I was going to ask you, do you know who you saw?

CLIENT: I don�t remember. It�s a weird name. She was in Providence, kind of, in one of types of �

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 30:23) did you?

CLIENT: No. But anyway, my memory includes the sweater, the Barbies and the Snickers. Every time, it was like, go choose your snack.

[Laughter]

CLIENT: But anyway, one of the things that I said that I guess was more poignant, because this is one of the things that my mother (inaudible at 30:41) you know, whatever, that she�s brought up a number of times is that I said at one point that I felt like a Ping-Pong ball going back and forth between my mother and my father. It has nothing to do with what we�re talking about necessarily here, but it struck me because at that age, that was what I � that was the example I used, also. And maybe it does. You know, maybe �

THERAPIST: Maybe. It reminded you of it. [31:07]

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, because I mean, if we want to do this. You know, there was, you know, I would be at my mother�s house and she�s saying this and I�d bring that back to my father or he � I�m here and I bring that back to my mother and he said this and she said, no that�s not right, or he brings me home from a Chicago trip with a jacket she doesn�t like, and she tells him to take it back, and you know. There was a lot of kind of �

THERAPIST: Going between.

CLIENT: And then that just made me think of something else. I was thinking about memories and connections. And I was thinking about my cousin this morning, and the baby and like, it was so funny, because I was texting with my other cousin, Cadence (sp) and then I had this flashback of when I went to go see her for the first time, and we were all standing above the bassinet, looking at her, and, you know, now that she�s going to be doing the same thing to her little niece and I thought that was cute. I mean that was just �

THERAPIST: Well, I think there�s �there�s a bunch in what you just said.[32:20] I�m not sure of this, but maybe it fits pretty neatly � yeah, I wonder if you�re kind of angry at therapy. I mean, I guess �

CLIENT: For what, for not fixing me sooner? All these years.

THERAPIST: No. No, not exactly that. More like � or at times feeling like, bullshit. I mean, your parents are therapists, but were too. And, you know, if you know there�s some idea about, you know, that meaning they�re supposed to be helping take care of people or help make people feel better. But I mean, that�s not what you�re at least today, saying they did. Maybe there was some guise of that, but they put you in between them. [34:29] They sent you off to a therapist in a way that it feels more like it feels more like it had to do with assuaging their own guilt and anxiety about you than actually helping you. It also has the feel, I guess, when you put it that way of passing the buck. You know, like they weren�t going to be there and talk to you, that�s not what you�re describing. They were going to use you, and then there were going to send you off to therapy as though that was for you, which it wasn�t. It seemed, if anything, to get them off the hook, in a way.

CLIENT: My mother has said to me in my adulthood that she regrets having sent me at that age. She said that it was ridiculous. What was I thinking? You were eight.

THERAPIST: But it was worse, because it�s not just that it didn�t do anything. It was that it seems like they were saying it was something for you, when it was really a way that seemed to feel at least to her, that they were getting out of being parents.

CLIENT: Yeah. A little bit.

THERAPIST: I �m not saying they weren�t parents at all. I�m saying that thing, I think probably had the feel for you of like, they�re outsourcing. [35:54]

CLIENT: Right. I even remember as a kid being like, I don�t understand why I have to go to therapy. You guys are therapists. Why can�t I just talk to you, Mommy? And they were like, well, it�s different, because we�re your parents. And I was like, so be my parents.

THERAPIST: Which in some sense � yeah. And then it�s funny that I happened to say Ping-Pong, because I mean, in a way it seems to crop up here is that, you know, I say something that�s supposed to be insight and helpful and you don�t feel it like that. I imagine it could feel to you like one of those things that I probably feel like I�m supposed to say that�s supposed to help and that may make me feel better, but it isn�t making you feel better, which seems related to what we�re talking about with your parents.

CLIENT: Absolutely. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And Ping-Pong. So that�s why I wondered, you know, maybe you�re angry at therapy.

CLIENT: Well, you know, I mean �

THERAPIST: Certainly disappointed.

CLIENT: Disappointed. I think that, you know, and that�s why I�ve kind of been on and off with therapy throughout my adult life. Well, childhood and adult life. Because � well, you know this, first therapist, I mean, whatever. I don�t even remember how long I saw her. It�s just very whatever. And I think I have maybe one or two other therapists like, maybe through middle school age, high school, but I don�t really remember. I think during high school I was more talking to the social worker, Adam Jules (ph) at Anaheim High. Do you know him?

THERAPIST: I probably met him. I did some of my training at a community health center in Anaheim.

CLIENT: He was awesome. But he really helped my brother, because my brother didn�t graduate or anything, and he ended up in Windsor House and then ended up � but Adam Jules was like, huge in terms of meeting with my parents all the time, so that when I got to high school, he became my go-to guy and was like, one of the few normal middle class white girls that was with all these ghetto people mainly who he worked with. The kids who were with OFC, Opportunity for Change and was my counselor or whatever. Anyway, and when I got to college, I think finally I got a therapist, and it was this woman named Dr. Grey (ph) and she was okay, she was in Framingham, whatever. She was okay, but it was disappointing, because I would talk to her all the time, but it was one of those phases of therapy � What I can say that I got out of it was somebody to vent to. And she was older, and she would fall asleep sometimes. She would do this. She�d be like nodding, but she was nodding herself to sleep.

THERAPIST: That�s awful. [38:55]

CLIENT: I know. And then I�d have to like move a little bit. And my father�s like, I�ve done that before. Then like, retire. Do us all a favor. So yeah. I left with kind of like, all right. I guess I�m fixed. And then with my parents, so I was just thinking about this just now, that I hadn�t really thought about before. Sometimes I�ll be talking to my mother about things I�m upset about or whatever. And I�ll start maybe yelling or getting upset or whatever it is and she�ll say something along the lines of, talk to Ethan about this. You need to talk to Ethan about this. I�m not your therapist. And what I thought of just now when we were talking, and I hadn�t really thought about this before was like, I�m sure not all these parents are saying this to their kids. Parents who aren�t therapists � like, I�m sure Stephanie�s mother who knows very well that she�s in therapy doesn�t say to her, I�m not your therapist. Go talk to your therapist about this, but my parents do, because they�re therapists, and they feel like they � or something. I don�t know. So it does. It does lend a little bit of like � My therapist is not going to fucking fix it. Fuck you. [40:00]

[Laughter]

I�m talking to you about it mom. I�m talking to you as my mother. I�m not talking to you because you�re my therapist.

THERAPIST: I didn�t want a therapist right then. I want my mother.

CLIENT: Exactly. And it�s always been like that. I�m not your therapist. And then the other �

THERAPIST: That�s horrible.

CLIENT: I don�t think she thinks about it.

THERAPIST: I understand, but I mean for you.

CLIENT: �Cause then it leaves me with a like, all right. Cool. Bye. Or, I don�t want to talk to Ethan about it, or fuck Ethan. I hate you all. And in terms of my father and Tracy how it plays out is just me � Just from the way that they treat me and the way that they act and the way that they everything, and especially recently. How the fuck are you guys therapists? Are you fucking kidding me? So while with my mother it�s like, somebody just dropped the therapy thing. With my dad and Tracy, I wish they would pick it up. Act a little bit more compassionate. So yeah, I guess you�re right. I mean, it�s not like I don�t work with one.

THERAPIST: Whether they�re therapists or not they should be there for you.

CLIENT: Right. Like, I mean it�s fine for my mother not to get attacked if I�m feeling upset about being single or Stephanie yelling at me or whatever. But the fact that she turns it into talk to your therapist about this instead of me is what�s so frustrating. She could just say like, I love you, but can you call me when you�re more calm, or something, you know.

THERAPIST: Why doesn�t she want to talk to you about it? [41:39]

CLIENT: Because I get angry and I yell and she doesn�t want to hear it on the phone. Or if she doesn�t have a solution, even if I�m not angry. She doesn�t have a solution, so she says, talk to your therapist. I don�t know, Trina, talk to your therapist.

THERAPIST: So she sounds overwhelmed, and then she � she kind of pins that on you. You are overwhelming me. You are more than I can handle, and you shouldn�t � I shouldn�t have to be hearing this. I�m not the one you should be talking to about this, so it�s kind of on you if I�m overwhelmed, not on me.

CLIENT: Right. Totally. I have to also point out that Michael plays into this, because he�s taken up a lot of her momness. So by the time I�m coming to her with this thing she�s overwhelmed with like you say, and whatever. It�s like, I can�t, you know, I�ve already helped Michael this week. I�ve already deal with this. You know? So I start to get angry at him, as I always do, and resentful of always him being the focus and me kind of being like you�re fine, you�re fine, you�re fine. You know. I can�t deal with you and Michael. Well, you have to.

THERAPIST: Right. Yeah. So it�s not often how you parse it in the moment, but I imagine in a way it�s terribly disappointing to you and also that you maybe feel like realizing you�re disappointing her.

CLIENT: Like, I�m still talking about this.

THERAPIST: To my mind it�s clearly too much and that�s your fault. And there�s (inaudible at 43:43) I don�t know if that�s how I feel, but to say this really only belongs in therapy is to say that � I don�t know. I could imagine it feels to you like, you know, this is pathological.

CLIENT: Or, this is something you need to fix.

THERAPIST: I don�t mean that makes everything you talk to me about apology, but you know, this is out of bounds for mother and daughter.

CLIENT: To be fair, we do have a closer relationship than I think some of my friends do with their parents in terms of what they�re comfortable talking about, you know. But that�s always been the case. It�s nothing new. So it�s not like she should all of a sudden like, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is too much. [44:30]

THERAPIST: I imagine in a way that like, (inaudible at 44:52) I mean, in a way like, I�m not who you really want to be talking to about these things, which is her. I don�t tell you the kinds of things she would if she were talking to you. Like, why don�t you try to eat this? We should stop for now.

CLIENT: Okay. But I�ll see you on Monday

END TRANSCRIPT