TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(No verbal exchange until 00:03:09)

THERAPIST: Hi! Come on in!

CLIENT: (inaudible)

THERAPIST: I have a question (client affirms) about next Monday. Do you, by any chance, have any flexibility on Tuesday?

CLIENT: Yeah, perhaps. Yeah. What time?

THERAPIST: Let me take a look. Um... the 24th... Yeah, on Tuesday, I’m just wondering, just for next week, if it would be possible to re-schedule. On Tuesday, I could do something in the... midto late morning, in there, around 11:15. Would that be a possibility?

CLIENT: I have to (inaudible).

THERAPIST: What time do you have to be at school?

CLIENT: I will leave at 10:30 or... yeah.

THERAPIST: And so you, are you there till...

CLIENT: 5:00. [00:04:10]

THERAPIST: You’re there till 5:00. What about your Thursday schedule?

CLIENT: Yeah, Thursday could... we could Thursday.

THERAPIST: Is Thursday a possibility? Because I could certainly do something... like, right around lunch... time like, around... just (inaudible)... um... like... around... like, 12:10? (client affirms) Would you be able to do that, so we’d do Wednesday and Thursday, rather than Monday and Wednesday? (client affirms) Is that good? Okay. So then, I’ll put you in next Thursday at 12:10? (client affirms) Do you want me to e-mail that to you, too? (client affirms) Okay, I’ll do that.

CLIENT: I would, I would confirm it, just...

THERAPIST: Okay. That would be great! Monday is just, I have a little bit of a conflict and I won’t make it. Okay, great! [00:05:08]

CLIENT: Snow makes it... difficult to walk, because it takes longer. (chuckles) (therapist affirms) (pause) Monday was kind of a disappointing session, or maybe I was just in a weird place. (chuckles) Because when I... I, you know, got home and just like... panicked or whatever, spent most of the day just crying. (chuckles) (therapist responds) I had to... I don’t know. I have a deadline coming up, all of a sudden it... I had to submit the whole draft of my novel to be able to do this workshop and... the deadline is coming soon, so I was trying to see okay, what more can I do in the next ten days. So I thought I’d print the whole thing out and like, just that thought, you know like, just is freaking me out. (pause) And I guess just the conversation of like... building versus destroying. (chuckles) I don’t know. I mean, these are, that’s such a dichotomy, I don’t know. I wish I could... look at things differently, I guess. I don’t know. Because those are so stark, you know, opposites.

(pause 00:06:50 to 00:07:29)

My professor was like, “I just don’t know about these workshops are, that you’re taking so many workshops. The idea is to develop your inner critic and...” (chuckles) I was just like, “Yeah, okay. I don’t know.” (chuckles) I’m doing it for a very good reason. But you know just like, him saying that, very quickly, felt really, having all of the facts or... I just kind of still, you know... made me fearful. (pause) Yeah, I think I (chuckles) next several months are meant to be spent... like, it was a lot of fear. So, I don’t know. I guess I should plan for it, I should...

THERAPIST: Fear about what? [00:08:25]

CLIENT: Well, just you know like... the next phase of editing, and revising, and you know, contacting, you know, editors, or agents or whatever, so...

(pause 00:08:40 to 00:09:10)

I mean, there is just so much uncertainty in things that I’m doing. And... like... I guess I just want to be able to... (sighs) have like, a strong core that is able to deal with that uncertainty, you know? (therapist responds) I don’t know like, I would just like to find my own answers, I think; just not... going to come from anywhere else, you know. They’re not going to come from Chris (ph), they’re not going to come from Nelson (ph), you know? (therapist responds)

I’d like for them to come from my mom (chuckles), you know just like, someone over everything, but... I don’t think... that, you know, I think you’ve pointed that out, maybe? That that’s just like an idea in my head, that other people have this awesome structure that guides them and all, that lifts them up. It probably doesn’t. So... Yeah... (pause) I mean, I don’t know. I feel like maybe I look for trouble, too, to some extent. Whatever... Or, I don’t know... [00:10:52]

Like yesterday, Chris was talking about his colleague’s wife, who was also... you know, was like, that she was in the same field and she was trying to get a job. She didn’t end up getting the job at BC, because her... She’s really the same, the same is true, whatever, you know. Chris was like, “Yeah, she’s probably going to get paid more than her husband.” And I was like, “Oh, how nice for her.” He was like, “Probably $90,000, like...” (chuckles) You know, I’m just like, “I would really like, you know...” You know, nine times, ten times, you know, which I made, (inaudible) because I made (chuckles) (inaudible). I was like, “What am I doing with my life?” You know? [00:11:43]

It’s not really like, you know... all I can see like, you know, she’s sweet and breezy and, you know, that she will have this. But you know, I have to remind myself, just think about like, all the struggles she must have put herself through to get there, you know? (chuckles) (pause) I don’t know. I feel like... what am I looking for? Am I looking for that kind of stability? I don’t think so. I should like, be very clear with myself. I’m just maybe lying to myself, or I’ve not been clear with myself that that’s not what I’m looking for right now. I had it and I gave it up, you know? [00:12:42]

I don’t know, it’s just like... weird to me that I act a certain way, when it’s like... Like, I need to have a conversation (chuckles) with myself, where I’m like, “That’s not what I’m doing!” You know, why am I... getting off target, you know? Or like, with Nelson and you know like... He’s in town this week and so... (sighs) I had tea with my mom, and I was just like, “Okay, I’ll just wait for dinner. Maybe I’ll have dinner with him.” Well, I never did have dinner with him. (chuckles) I don’t know. Well, I guess I have, but... so I was, you know, expecting something, some text or whatever, but nothing came until after dinnertime. [00:13:33]

He was just like, “Hey...” You know. And then he was like... “Come over.” Then I’m like, “What are you doing?” So he was like, “I’m having dinner with my roommate.” (chuckles) Just like... And I felt a bit weird about that, but then I was like... I’m not in that situation, you know. I’m not living with him, you know. It’s not like... me and Chris, where we talked about everything, and had all our meals together, you know. It’s not like that. (chuckles) (therapist responds) We’re not in that domesticated situation, where I’m going to cook. And I walked out of it, so why am I... weirded out when... I don’t have it with this other guy, you know? Then I have this habit of trying to like... checking his texts. If his phone is lying around and like, he’s meeting his ex-girlfriend, and they’re going to have dinner later this week, and... And I was like... “So! You know, you’re friends with Chris, you know.” So why does that weird me out, you know? It’s just like I... consistently look for trouble. [00:14:55]

THERAPIST: So you, what are you looking at his texts for? What are you looking to find?

CLIENT: Well, it just... I guess I’m trying to get entertained, I don’t know. Like, I know he’s texting one of his, they’re in touch, so I’m just, you know, seeing what conversation they’re having. (chuckles) So... (pause) I don’t know what I’m looking to find. I guess I’m looking... like, catch him, you know. (chuckles) But it’s like, I’m doing the same thing, so... (pause) It was almost like, then... I randomly think, “Oh, Chris would never do this...” (chuckles) Other things like... yeah, but he might. It’s not like I was completely... happy with him, you know?

(pause 00:16:05 to 00:16:44)

It’s like I have to actively remind myself not to like, think or over-think or expect too much from anything or anyone, you know. I feel like that’s my natural mode like, I just want to... go... like, all the way or whatever, you know like... be in that domesticated situation, and be exclusive and not, try and never talk to Chris, if that’s possible, you know like (chuckles)... But I feel like that’s just not... what I should do, you know. So I kind of... forced myself into this halfway point, like in this halfway zone. So... Yeah. [00:17:42]

It’s like, things being incomplete and inconclusive. Because I wonder if that’s like, the natural state of things (inaudible), you know? And just being happy with... in that, in that state, when things are unfinished and incomplete.

(pause 00:18:09 to 00:18:44)

Well, I also want to have some control, you know like... sometimes I feel like, in this state, I don’t feel that I’m, you know, as much in control, you know.

THERAPIST: “In this state,” this state being...?

CLIENT: Like, in the state of incompleteness and like, halfway point, the halfway zone. (therapist responds) (pause) Because I feel like, you know, people are not ready or I’m not, you know, ready either, so... you know.

(pause 00:19:25 to 00:19:44)

It’s very much the metaphor (ph) of my writing as well, you know like... It’s in the process, it’s... that I should live and learn, I think. It’s not ready, so I have to remain in that state for a very long time (therapist responds), until it gets ready, so... But it can be very taxing, you know? Just like... but I mean, I guess that’s what I’m saying, that I don’t feel as much in control, because like, if something is behind you, it’s decisive, you know? It’s like, you can look at it better, you have a better view, or idea, or whatever. So you feel like you have more control, but... I don’t know, maybe other people think differently or, even when they are doing something, they don’t feel as... out of control as I do. (chuckles) I certainly do feel that way. [00:20:55]

THERAPIST: (pause) Well, even if a situation is out of your hands, you can feel in control of yourself. And I think sometimes you struggle to feel in control of yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. I try to say that I should separate the situation from myself or...

THERAPIST: Maybe. I wasn’t sort of actively thinking about that. (client affirms) I guess it made me, I was think , because I was going to ask you, and I want to ask you more about what you thought was so upsetting when we were talking, more about what was so upsetting about Monday’s session. But I was thinking about this issue of being, you know, constructive versus destructive, and being in a destructive mode. There is sort of an out of control part of that (client affirms), feeling out of control. [00:21:54]

CLIENT: Yeah. But I do want to talk about constructive/destructive, because it’s such a dichotomy and it really depresses me. (chuckles) So...

THERAPIST: The dichotomy does, or...?

CLIENT: Yeah, just thinking that I’m like, in a destructive phase, you know. (therapist responds) Yeah, we need to go over that. Like, that really makes me feel out of control. Like, “Oh, you know, it’s like, totally what am I doing? You know, everything is destructive!” (chuckles) But it’s like, if I pause and think about it, I feel that way only because, you know like, moving out from Chris’s place has me, has put like, a great financial strain on me right now. So... that’s why I feel like, “Oh, I’m destroying my, you know, savings,” you know? Or, you know, spending a little more than I really, but... (pause) I’m borrowing money, which, you know, is not... the best idea, but it’s like, it’s not permanent, so... And I can put a stop to it by finding, you know, a job, as soon as I feel I’m ready for it. [00:23:12]

But I don’t know, I just feel like... thinking of Chris and his place and his like, open invitation to move back and stuff. That’s feels like such a... stable thing, you know? Like, I gravitate towards that, obviously, because I feel weird, I feel ungrounded financially, and even emotionally. But I then, when I’m on my own and like, feeling positive, I gravitate towards the... like, to Nelson, or you know like... the excitement and the unpredictability. So... (pause) I guess, I don’t know if that, if this... dating between one and the other constantly is like, a sign of being out of control (inaudible). I mean, both are impulsive, so... I guess it depends on which impulse I’m feeling at what time. [00:24:34]

THERAPIST: Can you say more about how upset you were on Monday?

CLIENT: Um... yeah. I don’t know. I guess, I mean, it was a weird weekend. I didn’t do much work. I wanted to, but I went shopping with Nelson instead like, both days. I did some work Sunday night, but not enough. I don’t know, it was just a, I’m just at a weird point. I’m supposed to write (inaudible) in the last chapter, and I was like, looking at it and freaking out, and feeling like, you know, years and years’ worth of work is nothing, you know? (pause) Yeah. Awkward sentences, standing for the hopelessness of the whole project (chuckles) and I’m looking at them, freaking out. [00:25:30]

And then, I mean, I guess the thing with the session... I can’t think... I guess what you said like, about... I don’t know, I think I had said... like, I didn’t have the financial foundation or the emotional foundation to do this or do that. And then you said, you know, “That means you should have even more planning,” you know? So I was like, you know, “Yeah, in an ideal world.” (chuckles) I guess I got a little defensive there with myself, or for myself. And then, just the whole conversation about, or just me thinking of getting a degree that I already have, and what am I doing. That just kind of, and like, I have to go to school the next day, which I really didn’t want to do, so that just... Like, everyone around me seems very stable. Chris, Nelson, but then again, as per our earlier conversation, I seek these people out (chuckles), you know. Because I feel like I don’t have stability, you know, because I seek. But I don’t know. [00:26:43]

But there are those people who don’t have stability. Like, I think of... I mean, all of my classmates, you know. They’re, most of them are now younger than me. (chuckles) (inaudible) probably they are, most part, or you know, it’s like in their 30’s, but... If I think about my classmates, I know that they’re not as stable as I... have the idea in my head. (pause) Where was I going with that? Yeah, and I mean like, you know just, I felt really weird, very insecure about what I was doing, and wasting money and... and not being on top of things, and not being an even better planner, as you said. You know like, “If you don’t have the foundation, you need to be even better at planning.” I was like, “Okay,” (chuckles), I guess I didn’t do that. [00:27:51]

So I felt like a failure, you know. And then the daunting task of printing just freaked me out (chuckles). I was crying and then I was, I skyped with Chris, you know. I was like, “I don’t know what I’m doing!” He was like, “Do this!” And I couldn’t do it. (chuckles) So... Then I went to the print shop and was printing one page at a time. It was costing him like, $1 each time. I’m like, okay, let’s stop. You know, let me get a handle on this. (chuckles) So the next day, he printed the rest. So... I mean, I know that... so that little lesson was like, you plan and then you execute, even in a small thing as like, printing a document, you know. But... you have to acknowledge the anxiety of the task, you know. You have to take care of that, get over it somehow, and then... you can plan. So... I just am waiting to get over a lot of anxieties, I guess. [00:29:03]

THERAPIST: So it sounds like some of the things we talked about on Monday, rather than feeling like, “Oh, okay, well, maybe I could do this,” it just leads you to despair. (client affirms) Look at all the things I can’t do, that I’m not doing, or I didn’t do. It just sort of heaps (client affirms) on itself.

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckles) I feel that way constantly. I mean, there were little pockets earlier, where I didn’t feel that way. (pause) And what is destruction, anyways? Like, is... partying on Friday nights destructive? (pause) I don’t know. Because you have a hangover the next day or like, you can’t start working at 7:00, but you have to wait until 12:00? Is that destructive? I don’t know. I mean, it’s a genuine question. (chuckles) [00:30:09]

THERAPIST: I don’t know. (client affirms) It depends on, I guess, what are you destroying, right?

CLIENT: Yeah. So 7:00... five hours of work, I guess... (pause) But it gives you this power, doesn’t it? Like, doesn’t that make you feel in control? I mean, it’s ironic. It’s paradoxical, but that’s what it is.

THERAPIST: I’m sorry. What gives you control?

CLIENT: When you’re destroying something, when you’re being destructive. I feel in control, I feel very powerful.

THERAPIST: It certainly gives one the experience of a particular kind of power, I guess.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) So confused. Where is the parameter (ph) we’re talking about? (pause) So what, so, your question about like, the Monday session. Like, what...? What do I do with that information? (chuckles) [00:31:20]

THERAPIST: (pause) I’m sorry. I didn’t follow the question about Monday’s session.

CLIENT: Yeah, so I mean, the conclusion was, I mean, I, it made me despair.

THERAPIST: Well, it sounds like that was part of it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Should I talk more about that, or...? What should I talk about? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Where do you think the question is coming from?

CLIENT: Which question?

THERAPIST: You’re asking me what you should talk about.

CLIENT: No, there is like, several threads, so now I’m like... what do I do now? (chuckles)

(pause 00:31:58 to 00:32:21)

I mean... I see what you’re saying. So you’re saying like... you meant, on Monday like, the stuff you offered, you offered in the sense of help, as in like, “Hey, you could do this.” But instead, it made me despair, right? (therapist affirms) Yeah. I mean, that’s what... I don’t know, isn’t that what depression is? Or, I don’t know, not depression, it’s something else, but... You know, things that are supposed to help you, somehow... seem... to come... like they’re out to get you, you know? (therapist responds) [00:33:10]

Like, I mean, there are all these positive examples. Like that woman who’s going to make so much money now teaching, you know, is going to get her job. You know, that’s a positive example. You know, something, you know, I should be happy for her and blah blah. But it makes me feel ridiculous! (chuckles) You know. And Chris and Nelson and their stabilities, their, I have started out to make, for whatever, you know, complex (inaudible). But it comes out to make me feel ridiculous, you know, because, yeah... because I compare. I will hear the help in that, you know, in your, you know, what you said on Monday. Maybe I hear judgment, you know.

THERAPIST: It sounds like you do. I was thinking that. It sounds like you hear judgment. “You should have planned better!” [00:34:06]

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckles) So, I mean, there is something that converts that positive into negative, right? I guess that’s the piece we want to understand and disempower. (chuckles) So...

THERAPIST: Well, with the... the planning piece. You know, what you were saying, I mean, what you’re saying, ultimately like, sort of at its foundation is, you know, “Look at all these things I don’t have any control over.” And I’m sort of, my retort is, “You actually could control them, and that maybe it would be a better idea to take more control over them, given the situation. Like, it, maybe...” And then there is a way in which you’re like, that you convert that to... you know, “I can’t do anything right,” or (client affirms) “I’ve messed up or ruined something.” (client affirms) (pause) What, at those moments, when I talk to you like that, I definitely am not talking a victim’s narrative (chuckles) or helpless narrative. Like, “Oh, you could do something about that!” And if you’re in a place where you’re feeling there is nothing I can do about that, I think sometimes it almost makes you angry. It’s like, “I can’t do anything about this!” [00:35:23]

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess it was just abstract. If we had like, been more concrete I would have understood it better? Like... yeah. I guess I was thinking of all those nights, or months, that I spent (sighs) writing and not really getting anywhere, and by getting anywhere, it just means like, the New Yorker saying, “Yay, we love you! Come on board,” you know. And not, you know, that I was slowly building up towards... something. You know, nothing is a waste. Far from it, you know.

THERAPIST: So when you were crying, is it like... sadness or it is frustration? Because you were saying that you were crying lot on Monday. [00:36:26]

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, just... it was just like, feeling really... scared and... what am I doing, just... yeah, just fear, you know. What’s next, what’s going to happen? You know. I’m in like, a hole or a puddle, how do I dig myself out? Just feeling pain, you know. (pause) Will I find a job again? Will I have money again? You know. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, with that sort of uncertainty, there is also the... The counterpoint is that there is a lot of power and control. You can do a lot of things. It’s your choice. And it’s almost like... you retreat from that. Like, actually, you could get a job, or not get a job. Or you could do this, you could... You actually have a lot of choice. And there is almost like, too much anxiety about having so much power.

CLIENT: (high-pitched surprise) What?

THERAPIST: You don’t think? [00:37:40]

CLIENT: (laughs) Where is that? Where is the power? What are you seeing? What...? Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, the power in the choice. Nothing is being foisted upon you. You could take a lot of different directions, and it’s up to you to decide which direction you’re going to take.

CLIENT: That’s true.

THERAPIST: And it seems like that can be very overwhelming.

CLIENT: It is, yeah.

THERAPIST: In those moments, you just want to be told what to do.

CLIENT: No!

THERAPIST: No? Well, maybe that’s not true.

CLIENT: (chuckles) I remember when it used to be very true. Not so long ago, I wanted to be told what to do. (therapist responds) Yeah. That, you kept saying that. You just want to be told what to do in, you just want to be told... I remember. But I feel like, it’s... I don’t know, again, hard to be objective. But I feel like I’ve outgrown that. [00:38:32]

THERAPIST: I’m wrong.

CLIENT: No, no, no! No, I mean, you were right, you were right when you... You probably are still right. (chuckles) But I feel like I’ve outgrown...

THERAPIST: Outgrown, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. But...

THERAPIST: Sometimes you need to correct me. (client chuckles) I’m serious.

CLIENT: Yeah, okay.

THERAPIST: I don’t know everything. And there are a lot of things you know.

CLIENT: Hmm... Yeah, well, I feel like I have outgrown that phase of... wanting to be told... what to do. (pause) I guess I want... to keep doing, and feeling strong, and positive, and confident, and winning, you know? I want to win! (chuckles) [00:39:42]

THERAPIST: What do you want to win?

CLIENT: I want to win like... approval and... get, you know, my book out, and... (sighs) write more books (chuckles), and be happy, and be successful in that way, you know. And... then sort out a few messes and... feel positive about helping my mom. (pause) I used to say that I want to help her, but I am, and I look back and like, I’ve been helping (chuckles) her. So... it’s just that not feeling very good about helping her. So... we’ll see what (inaudible).

(pause 00:40:36 to 00:41:04]

Feeling a lot of life is just planning, you know. (therapist responds) Right?

THERAPIST: Can you say more?

CLIENT: (pause) Feel... very much like Chris. (chuckles) You plan a day, and you you’re your week. (pause) You plan chapters, you plan every scene, you plan... to see things from one draft to the next. That’s, that’s it, you know?

(pause 00:41:44 to 00:42:09)

Those things are in your control. There are others that... are not so much in your control, and that... of course, makes you anxious. Like, want (ph) control, the response of things you know, just like... professors or boyfriends or friends (therapist affirms), you know? (chuckles) I’ve been dealing with stuff that’s not in my control.

THERAPIST: Are you feeling grounded by what you can control?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah! I mean, yeah. (pause) (sighs) The night that Nelson has dinner with his ex-girlfriend, I can... you know, I’m sure I’ll be watching a movie. I won’t be with Chris or my mom. Maybe even cooking (chuckles), you know? So I have a plan. (pause) That’s in my control. [00:43:22]

THERAPIST: (pause) Is he still friends with his ex-girlfriend, is that why he’s having dinner with her?

CLIENT: Yeah. I just choose to take it in that way, whether there is truth to it, that’s how I take it. I don’t know. Like, she’s, like they’re like... flirt, flirty, I guess? Actually, I really don’t care. It’s got nothing to do with me. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, if you’re serious about someone, I understand why you wouldn’t want him to be flirting with anyone else.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah, but I guess, you know, you have a connection with your ex...

THERAPIST: I think what I said is sort of an ultimate goal, but you have a complicated situation, too. [00:44:20]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I think the trick, really, with him is to not think much about stuff. (pause)

THERAPIST: Because otherwise...?

CLIENT: I mean, it’s just... weird like... he’ll buy me stuff. Not every weekend, he doesn’t have to buy stuff. Sometimes. (chuckles) (pause) But then, he won’t, you know like... you know, he... So like, I’m thinking, “Oh, you’re in town this week. I would call me every night and be like, What are you doing? Let’s have dinner. Let’s cook dinner, you know?” (therapist affirms) But he won’t do that, so then I’m like, “Why?” And I’m like, you know, I don’t even need to like, you know, whatever, you want... to see me after dinner, you know. (chuckles) So fine. Whatever. I just shouldn’t keep waiting around, though, you know. [00:45:35]

THERAPIST: You know, Cecelia (ph), we’re going to need to stop for today. So do you want to e-mail me to confirm that Thursday time? Is that, you want me to e-mail you?

CLIENT: Yeah, can you e-mail?

THERAPIST: That’s fine.

CLIENT: I’ll just look at my... calendar or whatever.

THERAPIST: That’s totally fine.

CLIENT: I should be able to make it at that, like time, that next day or Friday, but I hope to be able to... finish that.

THERAPIST: Thanks.

CLIENT: Thank you. Have a good week!

THERAPIST: Okay, very good. Take care.

END TRANSCRIPT