TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in. [00:00:38]

(Long silence)

CLIENT: This is what I was thinking. (Sneezes) That what we talked about on Monday, like valuing others and undervaluing myself. (Pause) I guess I was wondering if my relationship with Chris (sp?) didn’t work out because I started undervaluing myself. That was the biggest reason. Not that there has to be just one reason, but I guess in terms of understanding something, understanding is (inaudible at 00:06:48). I’m sure there are more reasons. (Chuckles) I guess I was trying to see if that’s what happened those three years that I wasn’t (ph) in good shape.

I don’t know. Maybe the more important questions is “Why I undervalue myself?” (Chuckles) Why that keeps happening. I guess that’s kind of what I was trying to understand last time, but next to a lot of bright and shiny objects, that’s why I find myself too dull in comparison. I guess we also talked about why is there a need to compare in the first place. [00:08:18] (Pause)

I guess, you know, my rational answer really is that’s how you understand the world and your place in it. So that’s how you understand why you have what you have, and why you don’t have what you don’t have, and what others have. Obviously you’re going to desire things that you don’t have so you try to get them and you fail. I guess what that’s abstract [more than anything] (ph). Maybe I should talk more about my own specific situation. (Chuckles) [00:09:25]

THERAPIST: When you say, “That’s how.” What’s how? What are you referring to?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: You said, “That’s how you know your place in the world.” When you say “That’s how,” what…

CLIENT: Well, you compare and you like, hierarchize and place yourself in comparison to others.

THERAPIST: Well, it’s not something that you compare, which I think is a problem in many respects, but that you’re always in the unfavorable position.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, it’s logistically the case. Right? Yesterday at school I’m sitting and eating lunch with Chris (sp?) and his friend and both are professors and I’m a student in the same institution. And I’m complaining about my bill that I haven’t paid. I don’t have… $300 is too much for me. So that’s just logistically the case. Obviously I’m going to feel small next to these guys who are constantly just talking about tenure and how this person makes $90,000 but this other person makes $110,000 because he was hired five years later. You know? And then they close the difference of 15 (ph). So it’s all there. It’s not just in my head. [00:11:15]

THERAPIST: I don’t know how that relates to anything though. You’re making it mean something that I don’t really understand.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: But what does that say about anything? What does it say that you’re a student? Why does that reflect anything on you? Bad, good?

CLIENT: I don’t know. It makes me feel small and makes me not want to sit at the same table with them. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: But you chose this. You already have 2 masters. You already have the degree that you’re pursuing.

CLIENT: Yeah. But I had my reasons doing this.

THERAPIST: I know. But then you’re saying that, “I’m only a lowly student.” Well, you chose to get a third masters.

CLIENT: (Chuckles) I know that. [00:12:14] (Pause)

THERAPIST: I guess I’m putting that out that you do have things that these other people, at least some of the things that these other people do have and can get the things that these people have. But somehow that just kind of gets washed away.

CLIENT: What gets washed away?

THERAPIST: The fact that you do have degrees already and you could be making more money if you wanted to. You’re just choosing not to.

CLIENT: Yeah. I know that. (Chuckles) (Pause) I don’t know. It just makes me want to run and hide. (Laughs) That’s like my first reaction. Only reaction.

THERAPIST: If you feel you’re at a point in life that you don’t want to be a student anymore, that you want to have a different status, you could choose that too. You certainly don’t need to be a student anymore if you don’t want to. It’s not like you’re getting a degree you absolutely need to get and you’re just sort of very low on the ladder because of it.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah. (Pause)

THERAPIST: I guess what you’re saying is, “Look at how lowly I am, given how much more status and stature these other people have,” and I’m sort of saying, “Quit complaining and just go get it then.”

CLIENT: Chuckles

THERAPIST: If it’s that important to you.

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess I’m also trying to tell myself that this decision has given me so much more time to write, which I didn’t have earlier, which I was dying for. So I should remember that and I should remember every day. Every day that I am writing. And I do. I make a note on my calendar, “I wrote these many hours.” I should just constantly keep looking at that. And yet, coming out of (inaudible at 00:15:26) and all, but I chose it for a reason.

That’s what Chris (sp?) tells me. “You gave yourself three years so just stick with that.” I’m thankful for this advice, but then I’m also thanking you (ph). And any time you talk about how much this person, that person is making I just go and shut my ears and ignore you. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: Do you feel that he’s preoccupied with how much people make?

CLIENT: I don’t know. I feel like I know him pretty well and he’s not at all money-minded.

THERAPIST: You do bring about a lot that you guys talk about peoples’ salaries, which people do talk about that but it’s not like something that’s very common that people talk about often.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, but I think he was just kind of find out that it matters when you get hired. That was the context. [00:16:28]

THERAPIST: That your starting salary matters?

CLIENT: Yeah. That if you’re hired 5 years later, [maybe somehow and you] (ph) negotiate well. He would write me a check for however much I ask him for in the sense that he doesn’t care about money. He’s not like Nelson (sp?). You know? Who is totally like that. (Laughs) (Pause)

Yeah. I just have to live with this narrative until something changes. Until I graduate or find a job. Because it does suck to not be with money, to not have money when everyone around me does. It’s a daily or monthly struggle. (Laughs) [00:17:43]

THERAPIST: Well, even if people around you don’t, you need a certain amount to live on.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I can take care of myself, so… (Sighs) Whatever. It’s temporary. I keep telling myself that. It’s temporary. (Pause)

The other thing—a gap in the bridge between these two. The other thing I want to talk about was what makes people attractive. What makes me attractive of those and what makes others attractive to me? I wanted to understand a little bit more about my, I guess, sexuality or whatever. [00:19:22]

THERAPIST: It’s an important topic.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, it is subjective. It changes from time to time. I guess I still feel like I can hear my friend’s voice saying, “You’re a destructive maul (ph).” I don’t know what exactly her context was with it.

This was around the time I kind of seemed ornery (ph) or something. I guess I associate that with being destructive. That going for someone I’m attracted to physically is destructive and giving up stability and love and care for someone I’m attracted to, that is supposed to be destructive. (Laughs) [00:20:52]

THERAPIST: Is that what you felt she was saying?

CLIENT: Yeah. I’m sure she wasn’t saying that, but that’s what I heard. Like, I have this narrative in my head that Chris (sp?) is great. He’s upright and he’s upstanding; he’s moral and he’s kind. I love him. He loves me. Just quit complaining as you were saying earlier and be with him. (Pause) And that, just like the rebel in me is like, “No. If I’ll be with him, I won’t sleep with him.” Or I just, “Oh, find him attractive.” Which pretty much is what happens all the time.

And then I’m like, “Am I a sadist? Do I like people who are kind of narcissistic, or like are mean to me? Or like, you know… Yeah, so it’s all like he’s weird now (inaudible at 00:22:12). (Pause) Yeah, I kind of understand why I don’t find Chris (sp?) attractive, especially since he’s so kind and nice. Like, does that turn me off? (Chuckles)

[Long Pause]

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about? [00:25:27]

CLIENT: Just what more to say about this? (Laughs)

THERAPIST: Well, in a very broad way you’re trying to figure out whether that some of the things that you find attractive or don’t, whether they’re changeable or not. You know, whether it’s sort of your mindset about your not finding men attractive because he’s too kind to you or something that you can work through versus you know, some people are just less attractive to people; and I guess you can find your reason for it but it’s not exactly anything that you can change. [00:26:41]

CLIENT: What can you not change?

THERAPIST: Attraction for example. It’s an interesting question. Is there a way in which we can understand some of the things that do and don’t attract other people that are changeable because they’re based on conflict or whatever? Versus just some people you just find attractive or not. Even if we find a reason for it, it doesn’t change the fact that you’re either attracted to them or not.

But it’s sort of an undertone to a lot or subtext to a lot of what you say. Especially with Chris (sp?). Maybe if you just felt differently about x, y, or z, then you’d have a different feeling toward him in general. You ask yourself that a lot. And they’re good questions. I certainly don’t know the answers to them, but they’re good questions. [00:27:37]

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean… because ultimately or soon I feel like I should make a decision about whether [ph] I want to spend the rest of my life.

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Why not?

THERAPIST: You may not have met the person you should spend the rest of your life with.

CLIENT: Well, I’ve not much time.

THERAPIST: What’s the time limitation? [00:28:19]

CLIENT: I’ve known Chris (sp?) for 10 years now. His parents have been asking about marriage for a long time now. I made the excuse, “Oh, I’m going to finish my book first.” Well, that might be happening soon too so then what’s my excuse then? I feel like I could see myself married and having children. That requires that I make a commitment to one person. (Laughs) I’m like so far from doing that with Chris because things are so up in the air. I’m involved with someone else and not just involved as like, “Yeah, we see each other,” but actually have feelings for him too. I feel like, marriage wise, things are muddled (ph). [00:29:27] (Pause)

So I guess that’s why I’m trying to understand if this is changeable. If something in my head changes, I’ll find Chris (sp?) attractive, you know? (Pause) Like, one aspect definitely, is when I, last year, was living with him and things with (inaudible 00:30:37) were over but I was kind of still thinking about him. But overall I feel like that things were in control and Chris and I were kind of okay.

Still there were moments when I would just really desire craziness? I don’t know what else to call it. Because he’s so mellow and mild. I would desire crazy highlights (ph) that I’ve never really had experienced until now. (Laughs) Going to bars and drinking and meeting random people or dancing or whatever and getting drunk. I had never done that in my 20s and I just always had this image of (inaudible at 00:31:36) curiosity of, “What is that like?” (Chuckles) It’s funny that I’m getting to see all that now.

Certain evenings I would just get drunk by myself. [He might run] (ph) away or something. I would just cry a lot when he would get back and he would be like, “What are you done? What are you doing?” (Laughs) I would wonder if that is very pathetic. Like, me doing that. I’d look at myself from above and be like, “That’s pathetic. Why am I doing that?” Again, my friend’s voice would get in my head. “You’re in a destructive phase (ph).” [00:32:43]

THERAPIST: Well, it sounds like that wasn’t only your friend’s voice; that your mother used to tell you that.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) I would just say, “You’re just not satisfied with me. You’re just not satisfied sexually (ph) or whatever.” “I’m not like that. [I’m like a pretty mild guy] (ph). I’m perfectly happy staying at home cooking a meal and that’s it.” No, I hate that. I want to do crazy things. (Laughs) I guess now that I am doing those crazy things, as in like Nelson (sp?) is social and likes to go out and grab a drink sometimes and meet his friends for drinks. One of his friends was like really crazy and we go to his place and he makes us drinks and we dance until really late at night and that’s something I’ve always wanted to do. It’s like a safe place and you’re just dancing with people you consider friends and that’s it. It’s kind of like the thrill I’ve always wanted and never had until now. [00:34:13]

(inaudible at 00:34:19) I look forward to nights where I’m watching TV and not doing much, you know? So, I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s destructive. I really wanted to understand why was I seeking that out last year when I didn’t have it. Getting drunk by myself and surprising or scaring Chris (laughs). I guess that’s the piece I want to understand. Is that changeable or not changeable? Can I base my life on it? If I marry Chris then, what if all of a sudden I feel so locked and I’m like “Where are those crazy nights. I want them and I cannot take this mellow night after night, every night, every day.” What if that happens? I’m capable of anything. What will I do? You know? [00:35:37]

THERAPIST: How do you mean you’re capable of anything?

CLIENT: No, I mean. I don’t know. What if I do something really stupid? I don’t even know what that means. It’s just [inaudible at 00:35:41].

Or is it just me? Me seeking extreme kind of situations. Not really even that (ph) extreme (chuckles). (Pause) Certain other friends who are not really like, I don’t associate them with being crazy or anything. They’re pretty stable and married and all that. And they’re like, “Yeah, I really look forward to my drinks, my alcohol like every Friday afternoon. [We go] (ph) writing and we’re working hard and really look forward to that relief [ph].” When I say that I’m like, “Yeah, so someone like Nelson (sp?) is better for me than someone like Chris because he’s all, “Stay at home.” You know. Be mild. [00:37:06]

I guess this all just relating to my “Who I find attractive and why.” (Pause) I mean it’s kind of sad sometimes that I feel like I can’t share stuff with Nelson (sp?) the way that I can with Chris, the way that I can cry in front of Chris. [I can contain all that] (ph) When I’m feeling sad or depressed, I can’t really talk to Nelson (sp?) about it. I just don’t want to or I feel like he’s not paying attention and he actually might not be paying attention. I’d rather talk about silly, happy things with him. [Again, that scares me] (ph). How would this work out long term? But then I’m like, “Well, he’s been supportive in the past.” He cries. So maybe there’s something that, you know… (Pause) [00:38:29]

I have these associations and they’re…there’s a dichotomy (ph) there perhaps? I think when I’m drinking or when I’m drunk I see Nelson (sp?) as I associate him with craziness or attractiveness or whatever. And then when I’m like scared about my writing or “What’s the next step? I can’t see the next step. It’s all darkness.” I’m like reaching out for Chris. (Chuckles) Which I guess would be totally fine if both of them were friends, you know? And in many ways they are. They were here. They both said, “Yeah. We’re your friend.” (Pause) [00:39:47]

Yeah, I guess in my head sex is associated with craziness. It’s not associated with safe and warm and comforting and loving. [00:40:35]

THERAPIST: I imagine it’s associated with your dad’s exploits.

CLIENT: No, I hope it isn’t. I don’t want to go there.

THERAPIST: But the idea that it’s crazy, I mean, it can be. But that it can’t be other things too.

CLIENT: No. I don’t know. I was with Chris for so long. And I loved him and he loved me but it never really translated to, “Okay. Let’s have sex.” You know? And then I had my whatever, sexual awakening [ph] and I had been with Graham (sp?) and then [inaudible] and been with like Oliver (sp?) and having sex. Feeling the need for it for the first time. And I tried to bring that feeling back to Chris and we did but it was mechanical, I guess? I haven’t really been able to… “Okay. Safe, warm, comforting, loving sex.” It just doesn’t follow. It’s like dangerous, dark, and unknown. You know, scary sex? [00:42:02]

THERAPIST: Well, that’s what I was suggesting. That there’s an association of sex and your dad.

CLIENT: I don’t know. I hope not.

THERAPIST: Why not?

CLIENT: What do you mean, “Why not?”

THERAPIST: Why hope not?

CLIENT: Oh, because then I would just totally run away from it because what I associate with him and his exploits is that he hurt my mom. He’s an asshole to her.

THERAPIST: I don’t think that’s all the association but I think that’s some of it. You’re worried that your sexual needs will lead you astray and lead you away from what you really should have. And that’s good. And you sort of see kind of a dichotomy at times between your sexual needs and being in a loving or stable or constructive relationship. I do think there are those associations for you. [00:42:56]

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) I don’t know what to do about them. (Pause) Well, I mean I do have a fear that I’m like him. That’s why I don’t want to be like him. You know, obviously being with Chris makes me feel like, I don’t know like, it’s all safe and comforting and I just feel locked in that and I wonder if that’s what my dad felt when he did it. (Pause) Yeah. I don’t know why I feel if I was locked in so much with Chris. [00:44:49]

Like it’s safe and boring, I’m like, “No. Really. No. No. No.” But with Nelson (sp?)… I don’t know. I’m trying to understand what I like and don’t like. I feel like beyond doubt I’m attracted to him. There’s no doubt in that. That’s like what you were saying earlier. Changing or unchanging. I feel like that’s unchanging, at least for now. But he’s not very experienced or sexual or you know. So most nights, he’s not here most nights anyways, but it’s not like every single night we have sex. It’s not like that. Earlier, I wasn’t okay with that because I was in a different place. But now I’m more okay with just like falling asleep next to him or doing nice things for him. I don’t know if I’m locked in because we’re so far from making any kind of commitment but I don’t resent being locked in like that. [00:46:21]

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:46:23) need to stop for today. I will see you on Monday.

CLIENT: Okay. Thank you.

THERAPIST: I did get your e-mail about 2 weeks from…

CLIENT: Oh yeah. Spring break.

THERAPIST: Not next week. The following week.

CLIENT: April 15.

THERAPIST: Take care.

END TRANSCRIPT