TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Thanks for rescheduling.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s cold in here.

THERAPIST: Is it too sunny over there?

CLIENT: No, it’s okay. I like it.

THERAPIST: Alright.

CLIENT: I feel like I just want to take a nap right now. (chuckles) I almost would’ve been late for this appointment if I I like woke up to my alarm at my normal time and I think like last night and I was like so conscious, I was like “Go set your alarm for earlier” and then I didn’t. Then I woke up at the normal time and like leapt out of bed (chuckles) and raced to get ready to get here. So I’m glad that I did remember.

[00:01:08]

It has felt like a really, really long week. So the reason I had to cancel Monday, which I meant to do on Friday and then again on Saturday and then, whatever. Then I did think it was 24 hours that you needed but (inaudible at 00:01:19). Anyway, it was because we had a full screening of the movie called Cesar Chavez that is due to come out later this month. It’s directed by a guy Diego Luna who is pretty well-known. He’s a Mexican director so mostly Spanish language films is what he’s directed [up until then]. So we were able to get a pre-release screening of the film. And then we flew in the director and the producer -

THERAPIST: Oh wow.

[00:02:00]

CLIENT: who gave a panel after [they produced the film] and it was really cool.

THERAPIST: Cool.

CLIENT: It was a little tense because there is this professor that we had come moderate the discussion from Kennedy School named Marshall Ganz, and he apparently like was in the whole he marched and he was like part of like the work with Cesar directly and the whole thing. So we had [him come] and we were all a little nervous. Like is he going to, you know, do the thing where he’s like “That’s not at all how it was,” you know. And pretty much yes, he did. Tiff [ph] my boss was moderating it and so she was like “I’m just going to direct questions that are very specific.”

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And try to so of course she asked him some lofty question about, you know, his experience and what you know, could he tell us a little bit about blah blah blah. And he goes “Yeah, that’s wonderful. I will answer your question in a moment.”

THERAPIST: (chuckles)

[00:02:57]

CLIENT: You know (chuckles) which is stupid because he [ended up ambushing them]. He said things like “This film made me very sad. This isn’t at all Cesar Chavez was nothing like the cartoon that you portray him as in this film” to like 180 people who all just loved the film and like undergrads who were like screaming girls because Diego Luna is so handsome and the whole thing. So everybody is just like silent. It was very awkward. He goes on his own diatribe and then the rest they were very good. I mean, you could see that while he was talking, they started to get this stance of like very defensive. They were sitting like this, legs crossed, just kind of like “Really?”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: “Tell us more.”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And they answered nicely and were kind of talking about like “Yeah, if we were doing a documentary, it would’ve been a documentary. It was a Hollywood film, [like the Hollywood version] basically.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which made complete like of course it was. And to be perfectly honest, who gives a shit? It gave me information about the whole movement that I didn’t know. So it gave me a basis on which I can say “Well, let me look up and see a little bit more about this.” Not like I’m going to, but if I’m the average viewer.

[00:04:06]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Anyway. And then later, he kind of was a little bit remorseful in terms of how he was speaking about the film and saying, you know, “Well, you know, I have to say, I was -” And then he was like “I like that you did this, and I like that you included about his fast” and whatever the case is. Anyway, that was Monday and that was also my assistant’s first day.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And she’s been great so far.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: But it’s tiring because I’m training, and then I’m trying to answer e-mails, and then I have all this other stuff on my plate, and I have to be an example and a role model and a you know, checking in with her all the time. And it’s just very tiring and a very long week. It’s made the week feel very long.

[00:04:57]

We’ve had events every day so far, and that will continue through tomorrow. Which is great for her to kind of just be able to dive right in and whatever. (pause) Poor Vivian [ph]. On top of all this stuff with work and how, you know, she got screwed over I told you -

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And then on Friday, she gets a call from her mother in Venezuela that her aunt, her mother’s only sister, has passed away.

THERAPIST: Oh no.

CLIENT: And the passing away was the result of she went out to get ice cream in Caracas. Got robbed. This guy stole her purse and in the process of stealing her purse she’s older, in her 60s she like fell over or got knocked over or something. Broke her hip. Was having surgery on her hip and died in surgery.

THERAPIST: Oh my God. That’s awful.

CLIENT: Isn’t that horrible?

THERAPIST: That’s horrible.

CLIENT: Anyway, so poor Vivian [ph]. I mean, not only is that horrible just in and of itself, but to add insult to injury with the shitty stuff. So that was pretty horrible for her.

[00:06:00]

She’s recouping well. She just had her mother said “No, don’t come” because her mother lives like far from Caracas, so she’s like “No, I’m only going in for a day for the funeral.” Oh and then there was some drama that they couldn’t find her body -

THERAPIST: [Oh my God].

CLIENT: because the morgue like something because it was part of a criminal investigation. Because even though the death wasn’t directly related to the robbery, because she submitted a police report for the robbery and then died later -

THERAPIST: Right, yeah.

CLIENT: So they didn’t know if it was at the morgue there or the police.

THERAPIST: I see. Wow.

CLIENT: Horrible. And then I received a (pause) You know, I applied to a couple other jobs this week.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Well, I applied to one last week when I got to work. It had been posted on Thursday. I applied on Friday, posted on Thursday. It’s in the same department that I just had that phone interview with the other woman. Did I tell you about the phone interview I had?

[00:07:02]

THERAPIST: I don’t think so.

CLIENT: Okay. Well, there’s an events coordinator job and I applied to it.

THERAPIST: Which school?

CLIENT: Like for MIT College.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: And I applied to it because I noticed that they were hiring from within. So like they posted the events coordinator position at the same time that they posted the assistant director for events position.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: But the assistant director of events position was listed with “strong internal candidate.”

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: And then when I called, it was because the events coordinator was getting that job.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I applied to the events coordinator job because I was like, maybe that’s the way they do it in this department.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: But then I had a phone interview with the recruiting person from that HR department and she was basically like “You’re over-qualified and this job only pays $50,000 and you would have far less responsibilities” and blah blah blah. “But it’s good we got in contact, and I have your name and the events team has your resume on their radar” and blah blah blah.

[00:08:03]

So then I applied for this other job which is a little bit more directed towards the development side of it, but it’s the same department and it speaks a lot to events coordination. And it’s like a manager position, so I applied to it. Then I e-mailed her like directly after and it had been posted only internally the day before. It gets posted internally for two weeks and then is open to the public.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: All these positions. So because I’m internal, of course, I can see that it was just posted.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And she e-mails me back and says “Sure good to hear no problem. I know that they’re at the end of their interview process, but it doesn’t hurt to get your resume into the ring.” So I e-mailed her back and I was like “Okay, thanks so much. I’m surprised to hear that they’re already at the end of their -” Like what the fuck? How am I supposed to ever get a job if they are literally just posting because they have to but they already have the person? Like how am I ever going to so I got very frustrated about that.

[00:09:06]

Then I applied to some other jobs. I don’t even know. Or maybe I didn’t. Maybe I e-mailed (inaudible at 00:09:10) and didn’t apply. Whatever. A while back though oh, I applied to one in Houston

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: That’s a senior manager of events at the business school. At the College of Business at Texas International University, which is a school that I actually had looked at for their MBA program because they have a really good like they have a really broad spectrum of MBA programs. They had one that concentrated on Latin America, and I was interested in that.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: [In my “I wanted to get an MBA” days].

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: But this might be a good opportunity -

THERAPIST: To take some classes there.

CLIENT: Exactly. Anyway and it pays and it lists the pay of like more in the range of what I make now or above.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: So anyway, I applied to that. And then I applied to an assistant director of engagement events position at University of Chicago.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

[00:10:03]

CLIENT: I was like “eh”, but it’s the position I want.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And so then I got a call for an interview. But then in reviewing the job description, I noticed that it said “normal hiring salary range.” It was like 50 to like 55,600 and I make 55,100 now. And so I e-mailed the woman back and I was like “In reviewing the blah blah blah, is that fixed?”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: She was like “Yes” and I was like “Sorry, I’m cancelling my interview.”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Because it doesn’t make any sense. Like even if it’s a better position, it’s a far worse school, I’m sorry to say.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: Just in terms of my resume and taking classes and everything. And that means that I wouldn’t even start at the top pay probably for that position. And that means that I would have to wait longer to move up to another position that pays more. Whereas here, I could get an assistant director of events position that pays $70,000.

THERAPIST: Right.

[00:11:01]

CLIENT: But it’s frustrating because I can’t get into (chuckles) the director of events position. So I’m feeling the normal frustrations -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: about that. (pause) I mean, I think just the weather is getting to me. Also, so I’ve been working on all this stuff for my class -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: that’s really introspective and that’s been difficult.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: So I may have mentioned last week that I was all stressed about I hadn’t been able to work and whatever. I got myself caught up over the weekend, which was great.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: I already submitted my assignment for this week.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: But (pause) So we had to complete this thing called an immunity to change map.

THERAPIST: Okay.

[00:11:55]

CLIENT: I was going to send it to you actually, and then I was going to bring it but it’s pretty content-heavy. So I was like I wanted to send it to you and show it to you ahead of time but I won’t. Because I think it would be interesting.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Because I was able to come up, just in terms of the formulas that they gave us for so, okay, it’s basically part of his whole theory in how he does his workshops and the whole thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Bailey.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And it’s this okay, it has four columns, right? It’s called he has this immunity to change theory. Like we’ve built this immune system -

THERAPIST: [I follow].

CLIENT: You know what I’m saying? Yeah, okay. I know you probably studied all this, so maybe I’m just -

THERAPIST: No, I didn’t. I think it’s not, as far as like generally part of clinical psych graduate -

CLIENT: Which is should be. Or is it because it’s like such a new theory?

[00:12:58]

THERAPIST: No, I mean, I forget why but I ran across it after graduate school at some point. So I sort of read through his books. I know like a little bit, but it was a while ago. I think basically what I remember thinking at the time was something like it was a nice way of summarizing ideas that have been around and sort of very well-established in like [psychology/psychotherapy].

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Like provide a nice way to introduce it to the people who are familiar with that kind of stuff. But it’s not really saying anything that’s new or different. It just sort of packages it very well and says it well.

CLIENT: Yeah, well I think it’s like packaging it for like adult learners.

THERAPIST: Yeah, [like a new] audience.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. And for businesses particularly is how they -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I’m sorry, my phone is like -

THERAPIST: That’s okay.

[00:13:55]

CLIENT: It’s Stephanie.

THERAPIST: Uh huh. And there are other people who do like organizational development consulting and coaching who have come up with similar models. I think his is probably one of the better known.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I think it’s used as a basis for a lot of these career coaches also -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: is what I’m finding. So anyway, there’s these columns, right? And the first column is called your visible commitment. So the goal that you want to most work on.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I came up with like one about shit, I should’ve brought it. I had it in my bag and I took it out because there were too many things in my bag. I had my notebook and well, anyway, whatever. I will e-mail it to you because I do think it would be interesting. And it’s about basically how reactive I am and how that manifests (pause) and that my goal is to not like be so reactive (chuckles) and not let my emotions rule my reactions as much as I feel that they do.

[00:15:08]

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: Or something. This is one of those classes that is harder than I really anticipated because (inaudible at 00:15:16).

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Right. So anyway, then the second column is called hidden commitments. No, wait. No, no, no. “Do what I’m doing or not doing that I’m unable to reach this goal that I have. What am I doing or not doing to thwart the efforts of my visible commitment?” Does that make sense?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess. So do you mean things like if your visible goal is to be less reactive, then things that get in the way of that are, you know, “I called my mother and I’m upset about this.”

CLIENT: Right.

[00:16:03]

THERAPIST: “Which, you know, is just the sort of situation when she says X, Y and Z and it’s likely to get me reactive.”

CLIENT: Yeah, although I was certainly not able to be that specific with examples because I just it was just so overwhelming doing this. So I didn’t I wrote like (inaudible at 00:16:20).

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Or like (pause) I should’ve brought it. I don’t remember. Anyway, and the third column is called hidden commitments. Well, first we had to do this worry box, which is like all of the things that I think of. Like what will happen if I do the opposite of what I’m doing now. Like do the opposite of column two. So like I’m doing all this stuff to prevent myself from doing this.

[00:17:02]

The worry box is what are all the scary things that come to mind. Like I won’t be seen as important if I do the opposite, right? Okay, then you translate that to your hidden commitments.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So that you’re saying okay, well wait. (pause) So the hidden commitments column is like meant to serve as like (pause) That it should feed back into the goal. So it’s like an arrow. I can’t even explain this right now. I don’t remember. See, I can’t remember stuff. I don’t even remember what it is now.

[00:17:57]

And then there’s a fourth column which is called see, I can’t remember. I don’t know. I lost it. But it’s made my week very difficult. (chuckles) (pause) Basically the assignment this week was to submit this list of big assumptions which is like, I assume that if I do the opposite of this hidden commitment that I have that’s preventing me from reaching my goal or whatever, that the world will collapse. Like whatever. These are these big assumptions. And then the assignment was to create a draft test of one of these assumptions, so then we can do an experiment like where we’re basically testing the big assumption to see if it’s true or false. And I got really frustrated because I was like, I can’t how would I test anything?

[00:18:57]

How can I test that I assume that if I don’t appear to be in control that everything will fall apart? How the fuck can I test that? “Hey, do I appear to be in control?” Like who am I asking? Like what the so I got very frustrated. And that’s like I am feeling that way right now too.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I’m frustrated with the whole thing. THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: And it seems like bullshit and impossible. Like what is the point of this stupid fucking ITC map with the fucking bullshit I don’t even know what they’re talking about? How can I test that I assume that if I don’t take care of the small things, nobody will? I can’t test that. If I don’t take care of scooping the litter, my house will smell like cat shit. If I don’t take care of fucking -

THERAPIST: Well let’s -

CLIENT: I mean, if I don’t take care of fucking feeding the cats, they’ll fucking starve. How am I supposed to test it if I’m all alone and I don’t [that’s just how I feel].

[00:20:01]

So that was [what I submitted]. I like typed up this assignment. Like “I can’t fucking test any of this because you’re fucking assholes.” I did say that. But I was basically like, “I can’t test any of this. I’m alone. It’s all very sad. This is all intangible, introspective shit that I’ve written and there’s no way to test any of it, so what the fuck are you talking about?” That was my question. Like I don’t know how to do this, can you tell me because the lecture didn’t fucking help me. I took all the fucking notes. (pause) I read all the goddamn readings. I did all the fucking schoolwork.

THERAPIST: Okay, so (pause) So it seems like you’re getting into that reactive mode.

[00:21:09]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That you wrote about not wanting to get into.

CLIENT: Correct.

THERAPIST: Right. And you seem to be doing that, like sort of in the stream of what you’re talking about here to me, on the heels of having forgotten.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And I think [mostly leaving you] quite frustrated that you couldn’t remember.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And couldn’t explain to me in the way that you wanted to what the assignment involved and what Bailey’s model involves and how you sort of went through trying to fill it out.

[00:22:09]

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm.

THERAPIST: And so it seems like you felt incompetent and ashamed in front of me.

CLIENT: Yes. And also not because how seriously do I really want to work on it if I can’t even fucking remember what I wrote?

THERAPIST: I guess my hypothesis is that you became critical of it after. That you probably (inaudible at 00:22:57) something and we can get to what that something is in a minute. But something made you I think you had trouble remembering because there’s content there that makes you anxious.

[00:23:07]

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: More than talking to me about the content makes you anxious, and that interfered with your remembering. Then that made you feel incompetent and ashamed, and then you did the thing you often do when you’re getting reactive which is turn around the sort of self-critical and shame-ridden aspect of it onto whoever else is out there. In this case, you know, Kevin Bailey.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So I guess I’m trying to be a little bit cute about this because that right there probably lays out what goes in the different boxes and the model. So your sort of like I forget like visible commitment -

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm.

THERAPIST: is to being less reactive. But you seem to have this hidden commitment to not feeling you look like an idiot.

[00:24:11]

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And this fear that if you don’t remember something or if you have trouble performing in some way, you’re going to look like an idiot and be a target of criticism and be shamed about it.

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm.

THERAPIST: And that your reactivity, at least in this instance, is a way of trying to ward that off. (pause) In a way, what you’re doing here all the time is sort of, without sort of exactly intending and planning this in advance or setting out to do this, testing yourself in way with me to see if that’s what happens.

[00:25:22]

In other words, like we can look at it and see oh, there’s something that made you anxious and that’s why you forgot. I could be wrong, but I suspect the way I’m responding to you is not making you feel ashamed. But like I hope is sort of helping to contextualize why you might have had trouble remembering.

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm.

THERAPIST: Not because you’re an idiot or because there’s something emotional going on.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I think that’s the test they’re referring to.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Does that make sense?

CLIENT: Kind of.

THERAPIST: If we’re sitting here talking this out, your assumption is that if you can’t remember, you’re an idiot and I’m thinking critically of you and you’re going to get shamed, either by me or by you or by both of us.

[00:26:21]

So you’ve got to do something about that which is to sort of turn the spotlight over to Bailey and talk about what a disappointing asshole he is. But the experiment is sort of like well, wait a minute, if you have trouble remembering, does that really make you incompetent and vulnerable to being shamed or likely to be shamed and criticized?

CLIENT: But who am I asking? Like who is telling me that’s true?

THERAPIST: Well, I think it’s kind of implicit here between you and me. I think in a way you expect me to do that or you expect to do it to yourself as you’re sitting here.

CLIENT: (pause) Okay.

THERAPIST: Does that make sense?

CLIENT: Yeah. I’m not going to remember that to like write it down.

[00:27:16]

THERAPIST: That’s okay. (pause) Yeah, I think his version of it would be something like, see what happens if you have trouble doing the sort of thing that would make you feel like an idiot. Like, you know, sort of try to stay with that a little bit instead of leaping away from it and pointing a finger at somebody else. Stay with it and see what happens. You know, does everybody jump down your throat? You know, like are you inevitably viewed as incapable and sort of shamed for it? Or like does another explanation for why you have trouble emerge?

[00:28:10]

Or, you know, do you come to understand in a different way why it was difficult for you in a way that’s more sympathetic. I think that’s what he means.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Does that make sense?

CLIENT: Yeah but I just it’s hard because I’m so, so attached to my instincts which are just to say “fuck this.”

THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.

CLIENT: Like I’m never going to be able to change or whatever. (pause) Which is like exactly the thing I’m trying to not do. I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Be attached to those instincts?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I see. So here we go with round two of what’s probably the same thing, right? Where problem number one was not being able to remember and feeling ashamed about that.

[00:29:08]

And problem number two is being too attached to your instincts and unable to deal with this. And that also is shameful and makes you feel incompetent.

CLIENT: Right. (pause) But there’s nobody else to blame but myself for that. So that I’m not I don’t feel like I’m running away from or like pointing fingers or whatever. I mean, if I had to, I guess I could blame my father. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, or me (chuckles) in that (pause) I mean, I think as you said in a way, like this is something I’m supposed to be helping you with.

CLIENT: Right. But I understand therapy and so I’m not you know what I mean? Like I’m not my instinct isn’t to be like “Well, what the fuck, like I’m not fixed?”

[00:30:08]

THERAPIST: Well, but, I guess you know, therapy involves both, right? It involves saying yes at one sort of level maybe logically or conceptually like “Sure, I can’t entirely blame this on Ethan as much as I might like to.”

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm.

THERAPIST: But at another level, that feeling of wanting to or knowing that at some level, you do even if it’s not entirely fair. You know, that’s also part of therapy, I think. You know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, and that is sort of and the reason it is, is because that points back to the way that is more comfortable to deal with it which is to say like the other person is disappointing. (pause) You’re not doing that for no reason. You’re doing that because you don’t want to feel so disappointing. (pause)

[00:31:17]

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm. (pause) Do you think I should I drop the class?

THERAPIST: Hmmm.

CLIENT: I mean, I don’t the reason I would be dropping it is because I feel like I can’t deal with this stuff in this way. But also I’m tempted not to because I feel like it could help me.

[00:32:09]

But then I think I like preemptively just feel like I’ve already failed and it won’t change anything, and that I’m so stuck in my ways and stubborn or whatever that I’m not going to change anyway. So I may as well just quit now so that later I don’t have to feel more disappointed in myself. Like in my brain, there’s no option of coming out with like “Ha ha ha. Oh, I feel so much better in working on all this stuff and therapy is so much better” and da da da. Like I have no anticipation that’s going to happen.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So my instinct is to -

THERAPIST: Well, even there I think there’s something of a split. (pause) You know, another alternative is you muddle through and it’s frustrating at times and at times, like with this assignment, you have trouble, you get part way through and then you get stuck.

[00:33:17]

And you know, you think about it and you angst over it and we talk about it. You learn something about it, and you end up sort of ahead of where you were when you started.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Not necessarily with the clouds parting and angels singing.

CLIENT: Right. (pause) Well, that’s what I’m inclined to do.

THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.

CLIENT: I mean, particularly because it’s a credit. (chuckles) There’s no way I’m going to get less than a B. Like it’s just not -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Right. So yeah, that’s what I’m probably going to do, but I think this particular week I’m just dealing with -

THERAPIST: I think you’re feeling like you’re getting slammed all over the place this week.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, with kind of like the pressure is on to be a good example for your new assistant and all this stuff going on with Vivian [ph] who it sounds like you feel pretty bad for. The job stuff that’s frustrating.

[00:34:14]

You know, you feel like all the efforts that you’re making to try to make things better are making it more difficult.

CLIENT: Yeah, my big thing this week has been feeling like I want the last five years of my life back, and that I just keep making these ridiculously stupid mistakes in terms of decisions that I’m making for my life. Like I choose to stay I choose to stay and not try to move, and then it’s the fucking coldest winter we’ve had in years and the third warmest on record in Houston. And then I could’ve fucking come back by now if I really hated it there. But no, I decided to fucking stay and then I made a horrible decision with this fucking disgusting roommate. And then the cats were a bad decision, and Franklin [ph] was a bad decision, and the abortion was a bad decision, and not fucking applying to that other job was a bad decision, and not taking that job like that’s how I’ve been feeling this week.

[00:35:09]

Like everything has been a bad decision, and I want to go back five years and change all of the decisions I’ve made and see what happens. I’m just feeling like I can never how am I ever going to make a right decision when I keep making all these wrong decisions? (pause) And how do I reconcile those feelings with the fact that time machines don’t exist? (pause) Everything, bad decision. And it’s like one bad decision begets another one, so then it’s like a bad decision to be with Franklin [ph].

[00:36:10]

But then it feels like a bad decision to have broken up with him because now here I am, almost two years later, still feeling like shit.

THERAPIST: (pause) Well, I think there’s something else going on here which is (pause) I wish I had (inaudible at 00:36:51). I think that (pause) Kevin Bailey and -

[00:37:15]

Like in a way, I am making you feel incompetent. I think you know for me to sort of lay out in this cute way like “Oh, well, here’s what I think you’re struggling with and here’s how it fits into your homework assignment.” I think it made you feel bad. Like I can do it and you can’t do it.

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm.

THERAPIST: I think I made you feel shitty. That wasn’t obviously what I had in mind. (pause) It’s obviously very different because I’m a psychologist and I’m not in your head. But I think that happened and I think it made you feel crummy.

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, but I was already feeling crummy. Like I’ve been feeling like this all week, you know?

[00:38:15]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (pause) But yeah, it’s like it did make me feel a little stupid you’re like “Well, you just did the experiment. Like there’s your thing, there’s your assignment.” And I know that you didn’t say you weren’t saying that. But in my head, I was like “Gee, Trina, there’s your fucking assignment, you idiot.”

THERAPIST: I think Bailey’s whole thing is a little bit like that in that -

CLIENT: All the stuff I’ve been struggling with and it’s like “Well, here’s a formula, you moron.”

[00:39:09]

THERAPIST: Here’s this very neat, sort of clear, reasonable, rational thing that of course you and everybody else should be able to just do simply.

CLIENT: And then it’s like, well why didn’t I know about this before even?

THERAPIST: Right. (pause) You know, of course, if it were that easy -

CLIENT: You wouldn’t have a job.

THERAPIST: For one thing, I wouldn’t have a job, yeah. (pause) Right. (pause)

[00:40:01]

I guess there’s something maybe more subtle there too which is I think this actually might be important for you. [This might be something I’ve talked to you about before] but at one level, yeah, what I say makes you feel bad. But at another level, it makes it clear that I’m not actually in that moment, in a way, in this to help you. In other words, like [I’m supposed to make you] feel better about this or to help you feel better about this. It can’t feel like we’re on the same page or like I’m kind of in it with you in some way if I’m saying things that are making you feel bad like that. And I think that comes up for you, do you know what I mean?

[00:41:03]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like the person who is supposed to be helping or who you want to be making you feel better -

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: does something, says something, acts in some way that actually makes you feel worse -

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm.

THERAPIST: (pause) And I think it’s partly about you feeling shame, but it’s also something else which is, in a way, not being on the same team. You know, there’s something else like that.

CLIENT: Yeah, that’s true. That came up that comes up with my mother, father.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Brother, Franklin [ph], Stephanie.

THERAPIST: We should stop for now.

CLIENT: Okay. I’ll see you tomorrow morning.

END TRANSCRIPT