TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: So as I mentioned, yesterday was much better than Monday. Monday, I spoke to Helen when I got home and so I smoothed things over. She is apparently � she�s going to not drink for a while, because she tends to make decisions that she later regrets. So we�ll see how that goes, I guess. Yesterday was so busy, I just didn�t really have a lot of time to think about anything else, so it made the day go quickly. Also, I ended up hanging out with Sergio for a little while on Monday. He had called me. [1:00] I hadSorry, I�m on high alert, because of people doing this conference and sorryJust let meOkay. So I had written him messages that, you know, like, what are you talking about? What do you mean you couldn�t check your Facebook? All this stuff.

And then so later, a little while after I got off the phone with you, it was an hour later, maybe. He called and said, you know, I got your message on Facebook and everything and I wanted to call you rather than message back, just �cause I�ve been running around trying to deal with this phone. [2:00] Da, da, da, and I really didn�t mean anything when I said, nice seeing you besides it was nice to see you. I�m glad that I caught you in the morning, and I didn�t come on Sunday, because Sunday was a bad day for me. The phone broke. I was dealing with tenants doing this, tenants doing that. Whatever. So and that, you know, he wanted to see me if I�d like to have a drink or something.

So I did, and it was really nice, and he was really nice. And we really get along well and have a connection, but he sends mixed signals. He acts very like, couply or that he cares about me a lot. But then, he doesn�t commit. So I don�t know what I�m supposed to read from that or how I�m supposed to feel. It�s left me today then after yesterday I was not really thinking about stuff. I was too busy or whatever. But it�s left me today kind of feeling sad about the whole everything again. [3:07] And I don�t think it�s how I want it to be. And it�s cold. And whatever. And so now I�m feeling like I really want this thing to be over, so I can go home. I don�t know. But once I get back into the diet, eating better this week and exercising and whatever. But then the last couple of days and today I�m just feeling like I should go home, lie around and they go to bed early or something. Not do anything. [4:13] And, yeah. (pause) [5:05] [6:14]

THERAPIST: I guess I�m thinking about intrigue and deception. And I don�t know what to make of it.

CLIENT: Like, in regards to what?

THERAPIST: I�m going to lay it out. I just haven�t gotten there yet. Well, I�m thinking about what happened to you and also what happened and like, what you do to me. I�m thinking of � Yeah. I�m thinking of like, Sergio�s whole story seems totally fishy. Right? You get together. It�s clear you want to be dating. He�s very nice and charming when you�re together, but doesn�t want to tell anybody. He sometimes mysteriously disappears or is inconsistent in how he communicates and then like, kind of pops up and is charming again. [8:22] It�s sketchy. And it�s not the same thing, but it�s a bit reminiscent of Franklin. (ph) And I mean, you know all that. And then like, but there�s a parallel thing that happens or that you sort of do to me where like, with , Sergio or last week or with Lucas, you keep me in the dark. Like, you don�t tell me what�s going on. I appreciate it and I�m sure that it�s part of what you said, that you feel ashamed or you felt that it was going to be a waste of time.

CLIENT: Or, I know it�s a bad decision, so-

THERAPIST: What�s the point in talking about it. I already know it�s a bad decision. [9:36]

CLIENT: It�s just going to make you know that I�m consciously making idiotic decisions that make me unhappy.

THERAPIST: I see. But the fact of it is that you�re actually keeping me in the dark about what�s going on with you. Like yeah, what�s going on in your life. What�s going on with these guys? There�s a similar kind of deceptive thing or a vaguely parallel deceptive thing to what they�re doing to you. [10:30] And then yesterday. So we had agreed on Monday that you would let me know sort of middle of the day both how you were doing and what you thought about today, and you didn�t. And I thought, it was like, hmm. You know, like I know you had a busy week. I know you have three conferences. (inaudible at 11:05)

CLIENT: No, I forgot to or whatever.

THERAPIST: Right. So it�s interesting. It also seems to fit this parallel, I think. And I also think it�s like, some way you�re doing to me what they�re doing to you. I don�t know what to make of it yet, but it seems relevant and there. That is something to think about. Here are some things I could imagine. [12:14] I don�t know. There are a bunch of things I could imagine, but I�d rather actually not imagine them right now. I�d rather figure out what�s actually going on. I don�t know. What are your thoughts?

CLIENT: I don�t know. [13:12] I mean, that I don�t tell you stuff because I don�t want you to tell me to stop or something? I don�t know. I don�t know. I guess I don�t have any thoughts.

THERAPIST: I think the things that occur to me are like, are you doing this to sort of see how I deal with it? Like, because it�s something that you have a really hard time knowing how to handle? Is it that you�re mad at these guys for how they�re treating you and you�re taking it out on me? Is it that you�re kind of offloading some of the kind of helplessness or frustration that you feel onto me by keeping me in the dark when things are going on with you? I don�t know.

CLIENT: I don�t know. [14:26]

THERAPIST: I guess one thing that�s clear is that in your version of things, I at some level in your mind, though I won�t come out and say it, must think you�re doing idiotic things. And that you actually know better, but you do them anyway. And I�m going to be, I don�t know, critical and maybe sort of stuck or I�m ready to throw my hands up if you keep doing those things. Certainly, wouldn�t be able to see the reasons why you would keep seeing Sergio, for example?

CLIENT: Yeah. Pretty much. [15:39]

THERAPIST: That was clear. I�m not saying that�s where I�m coming from, but it seems you�re pretty � you have a strong impression that that�s really what I�m going to think. Which we know. It�s also probably what you think. But still, I think you see it as my reaction to-

CLIENT: Yeah. Pretty much.

THERAPIST: Which actually isn�t. Like, I don�t know for example, why you have continued to see Sergio. I could imagine 100 reasons again.

CLIENT: Because he�s nice, and I have nobody else.

THERAPIST: That�s one. [16:39]

CLIENT: It�s the main one.

THERAPIST: Maybe. I mean, another one could be that there is some reason that you are drawn to guys who do stuff like this.

CLIENT: And I would have no idea how to figure out why I�m drawn to guys who do stuff like this.

THERAPIST: Right. And I�m not saying I know that that�s it. I don�t. But I�m really not sure, not only because he�s charming and when you�re together, it sounds like it�s pretty fun. Maybe fun�s not the right word. But like, he�s attractive, he�s charming. You have a good time together. [17:26] I don�t know. It seems to me � I have the impression that you are someone sitting there feeling like she�s giving a lecture.

CLIENT: Kind of. I don�t really question. I don�t know.

THERAPIST: Well, maybe you feel like I�m calling you out the way you called Franklin out. Like, some small echo of that. You�re not telling me what�s going on and all these things, and you were supposed to call me yesterday, and you didn�t.

CLIENT: Maybe. I don�t know. [18:29]

THERAPIST: Okay. Maybe it feels really shaming for me to make this parallel with what�s going on in your life and what�s going on here.

CLIENT: Maybe.

THERAPIST: [19:24] I think you would feel, if you were taking some of this out on me in this way that that was probably the main thing you were doing.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: If you think back, it happens all the time in therapy that maybe it still feels like what the fuck am I doing once again. Here�s another situation where I�m doing something stupid or something like that.

CLIENT: Right. Or maybe it�s just that like, I don�t know. That nice guys don�t want � choose me or like, want me. So I get just like, the assholes. Or like, the selfish ones or whatever. [20:33] (pause) [21:35]

THERAPIST: I guess that�s something you�re really worried about.

CLIENT: And that I don�t deserve a guy that�s really going to be good to me or something.

THERAPIST: For a good reason, or there�s something inherent in your or you don�t deserve that the way other people do?

CLIENT: I guess. I don�t know. [22:37] (pause) [24:13]

THERAPIST: Well, here�s another possibility. Maybe you�ve sort of this thing where you feel like in a relationship one person kind of has to not be treating the other person well. I�m thinking of � we know examples where you�ve been on that side of it. But then I get to also thinking about guys that you�ve been out with that you�ve been really critical of. And I�m not saying you actually treated them badly, but in a way you could say in your mind you did. You know, if not externally.

And I think that�s also a little bit sort of the thing with me. I mean, you are in a way � although I know you are not at all thinking about it like this � doing the things to me that it has really bothered you for guys to do to you. To keep you in the dark about what�s going on about relationships or whatever, things like that. [26:25] And the whole point of all of that, I think, would be � I mean, I have a few thoughts on why that might be. The first one is in your history. I mean, obviously in kind of a different way, like you and your dad. You feel often really badly treated by him and in a similar kind of way. I mean, not about other relationships, but about like, you know, being selfish. Not caring about what matters to you. Not paying attention to it. All that kind of stuff.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It seems in some ways, similar to me. It feels very disrespectful. It feels very kind of self-absorbed on his part. [27:28] Is this holding any water at all for you?

CLIENT: I don�t know. I mean, I feel I don�t tell you things, because I don�t want you to point out that I shouldn�t be doing them. And maybe that�s contributing to why I might be feeling unhappy about all this stuff I come in here talking about being unhappy about. I mean, maybe it�s more complicated than that.

THERAPIST: You don�t tell me things because you don�t want me to point out how you�re doing things that are hurting you, which, okay. And maybe that has some relationship to the other things that are happening. [28:22]

CLIENT: Right. And so it�s like, yeah, of course you feel like shit. Why were you doing things to make yourself feel like shit? Like, we�re dealing with people that don�t treat you the way that you should be treated or whatever.

THERAPIST: I mean, that is certainly what you get from a lot of the people in your life when you tell them. My point being, that would -

CLIENT: Be in keeping? Right.

THERAPIST: Your expectations. I don; know. Maybe there are times it does feel like you get that from me. [29:24]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I�m not aware of -

CLIENT: Well, I think inherently. Some of the things that we talk about just end up proving to me that or something. Or that I�m creating my own issues or something like that. I mean, why am I still seeing Sergio if he, you know, has maybe a whole other secret life and family? Because he�s nice to me and he gives me compliments and we have fun and we like watching the same TV shows and can chat and whatever.

THERAPIST: Well, and it�s there�s a backup there which is you haven�t found someone else that makes you happier.

CLIENT: That�s right.

THERAPIST: And you often aren�t optimistic about that.

CLIENT: Right. [30:49] (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah. So I mean, there are those two things. You haven�t and aren�t that hopeful about finding what you may want. And there are some good things about seeing Sergio.

CLIENT: Right. (pause) [32:15]

THERAPIST: But I think you only half believe that and you also imagine I only half believe that. And the other thing that you�re feel so strongly is that both you and I feel it�s a completely stupid thing for you to be doing. It means that you must be in denial about what�s really going on with him. [33:14] So maybe that�s sort of a split. Maybe by not telling me, you think because I�m off somewhere thinking about that side of it, then you can enjoy the other side of it, you know.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don�t know. I just feel really down on myself and the choices I make and that I�ve made. And just feel like everything�s a mistake and I just don�t really care about anything. [34:16] (pause)

THERAPIST: I see. Yeah. Okay. So I think this has been clear to me. You�re not telling me not really I don�t think mostly because you anticipate I�m going to be critical of you. Maybe there are some things that I�ve said that have felt that way. But I don�t think that�s mostly it. I think it�s more like it frees you up from having to think about it. Because on one side, you feel really bad. [35:19] And that�s so painful in itself. You feel so awful after feeling down. And there really are, and I actually � that makes sense to me like, there really are some good things about like seeing Sergio. When you�re together you do enjoy it.

CLIENT: Yeah, but it�s always, you know, on either end of it, it�s always well, when am I going to hear from him again or when am I going to see him or what does he actually do all week. But then whenever I hang out with him, I never end up really wanting to talk about any of that stuff or ask him, because then I don�t want to start a thing. And I just want to be able to enjoy our time and hang out.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: But it�s stupid, because it�s this pretend girlfriend for a day thing. [36:24] Like, whenever it�s convenient for him.

THERAPIST: It does seem more like it�s sort of a fantasy that you want or like, a vacation is more accurate. A vacation.

CLIENT: You know, and he�s doing things like � we�re watching HDTV House Hunters and he starts asking what kind of house I would get, and that if we were house shopping he would just let me choose and then he would fix the inside. And then ask me what kind of engagement ring I�d want in some conversation in the context of me saying I was helping my friend�s boyfriend get a � Like, what are you talking about, you know? [37:07] And so I don�t know if he�s doing that because he actually has thoughts of being with me seriously or if it�s just like, this fun game for him that he can be flirtatious and then not follow through on anything. Or not be serious at all. So yeah, the whole thing is like, completely imaginary.

THERAPIST: And it really sucks to be vulnerable to that. It�s not necessarily so bad to play it, but to be sort of like, vulnerable to it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Because then he leaves, and I�m like, wow, I�m catching feelings. And, you know. I�m like, Stephanie, she always says that. She�s like, I worry whenever you see him, because then you like, get your hopes up that he�s somehow going to be different this time. [38:05] And it�s like, the same thing I did with Franklin for three years.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 38:25) crashing down.

CLIENT: All right like, remind me that it�s definitely going to go nowhere. (pause) [39:07]

THERAPIST: I see. I think there probably is also an anger piece. I think there is you�re pretty pissed at him. And like, and then here with you being controlling me being in the dark and not knowing, that you kind of flipped that around. And I don�t know that it feels all that great for you. But I guess that�s one aspect of it, too.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think it is, too.

THERAPIST: [40:19] And of course, you felt pissed off and helpless I imagine to him. And of course, I have to like, stay underground because otherwise it would kill hanging out.

CLIENT: Then we would get in a fight. And we�ve had the conversation and argument on and off and back and forth. And then I get confused, because he keeps wanting to see me. You know, and we have had this fight and then I�ll disappear for a few months or when I was Lucas and he didn�t know about it, so then I wound up seeing him, because I was seeing Lucas. And he still was calling and trying to see me and whatever. [41:31] So then I like, it gets blurry for me, because then I�m, he still wants to see me, so maybe there�s something there, you know. (pause) [42:28]

THERAPIST: Why don�t we stop for now.

CLIENT: Okay. So I�ll see you on Monday. Thanks, Ethan.

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