TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: [inaudible 00:03:43]. I [inaudible 00:04:16] a lot of jobs and they [inaudible 00:04:21] getting rejection, like it’s kind of really pissing me off because I feel like I’m kind of over qualified for these jobs. But then rejection letters [inaudible 00:04:33]. “We’ve found other candidates that are more qualified than you.” And I’m applying to like mid-level two positions or whatever I used to do [inaudible 00:04:46]. So I feel a little bit, kind of dismayed.

There’s a place that I’m continuing to interview with. Like I’ve had three, four interviews with them and they’re like, “Before we bring you in, you’ll need to do this assignment.” It’s substantial. It’s like they want me to write a long post on like the manufacturing industry and I just don’t know anything about it. So…I’m like, I’m a little worried as to whether…but it’s a full-time job and what if I do get it and then I get something good and I get stressed out by it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Then I won’t be able to write it and I feel like a critical jump [inaudible 00:05:44].

But then I’m like, “Shouldn’t I consider that a challenge and like try and see how much I’ve grown in the past few years and see how I can hold down a full-time job and feel I’m being responsible financially and be active instead of being passive and you know, like…”

Yeah. Take control of my finances so I don’t feel kind of hopeless like I do right now, instead of take control of things, and try and use my time wisely and make time for writing, even when I’m in a full-time job. I feel like this idea of me just being active and in control and determined and facing challenges.

But I feel like maybe that [inaudible 00:06:56] and I decided it’s not taking reality into consideration, which might look a bit different. Like it may look like I’m stressed by the job and feeling trapped or feeling incompetent and feeling even more kind of dismayed because I cannot do something, when it’s completely new for me.

Then I’m like, “On the other hand, it would be a challenge and it would make me feel so much better if I can prove myself that I can do this.” [inaudible 00:07:36] this writing assignment will kind of not just let them know that I can do it, but let me know, which is more important, but can I do it? Do I want to do it?” I don’t know. I guess I am worried, “Well what if I feel trapped?” [pause]

I had an interview with just like a recruitment place and she’s like a girl with a thin voice and maybe younger than me. But I still felt weird and intimidated just by it was like a bland, white room, which they have you sit and lock the door and such. She’s asking simple questions and I just didn’t really know how to respond even though I know this stuff really well and I feel like no one can do a better job at this than me. It feels that way, but still you know, I’m like out of touch with the terminology.

So she must be like, “I don’t want to send her to places that are like, ‘What the hell is wrong with these places?” Don’t they see? I mean doesn’t it mean anything to have the kinds of experience I have and doesn’t it show that I can do…a large number of things. I can do them well. It doesn’t…so what if my terminology’s a bit rusty? Can I not take a day or two to learn?” But other than that, everyone has to be super confident and make super on the ball. That’s just fake. [Laughs]

THERAPIST: You get really angry.

CLIENT: Yeah. Because you know.

THERAPIST: It’s like they’re challenging you and you feel very angry they’re challenging you.

CLIENT: Could be.

THERAPIST: You see it as a challenge.

CLIENT: Yeah. But how else should I see it? [Laughs] [Pause]

THERAPIST: Well they’re evaluating whether you’re a good fit. They’re not trying to pick a fight with you.

CLIENT: [Laughs] Yeah. I know. That’s just like bull shit. “Are you a good fit?” You know? What the hell does that mean? I guess like my resume is, I think, stellar. It’s pretty decent. So it’s like…I don’t know. [Laughs] I’m not mad at the way that’s interviewing me. It’s just a bit weird that we’ve had three phone interviews just like they’re still in, “ [inaudible 00:10:55], bring your [inaudible 00:10:53].” I’m like, “What?” I mean I’ve never had that. Like I’ve only had face-to-face interviews. So it’s just a bit weird to me, but I’m not angry at them because I get that they…both of us need to know whether we’re a good fit or not. But like people who are turning me down for jobs that I’ve already done. Like I’ve done them at a managerial level as well. You know, like the [inaudible 00:11:20] level.

Those placements I feel like are full of shit because…those I’m angry about with because they don’t even want to evaluate…I don’t even know what [inaudible 00:11:31]. [Laughs] Maybe I’m not a good fit. For some weird reason they don’t care to tell me about. [inaudible 00:11:41] that standard rejection letters. I mean there’s been like one person who rejected and kind of said, “You don’t have experience with this specific area.” And I get that [inaudible 00:11:52] like that. [inaudible 00:11:58].

THERAPIST: I’m just struck by how many feelings this evokes for you.

CLIENT: Yeah. I cannot be [inaudible 00:12:18] emotional a lot for some reason. I don’t know. [Pause] But I do this sort of stuff on like a weekly basis or as a volunteer and at other places. So I feel like I might as well get paid for this. I guess I’ve been trying not to care so much and focus on the positives, the acceptance, and the interviews rather than the rejection.

And I am kind of bored by the same stuff anyway. Maybe that’s [inaudible 00:13:16]. I don’t know. I would like something new so. [Pause] It’s just like money. I’m extremely worried because I need to make money for that [inaudible 00:13:43] what I’m going to do and [inaudible 00:13:47] I just feel ridiculous.

[inaudible 00:13:51] told me that he helped my mom with her rent for this month and she’s like, “I don’t know if I should take your help.” But then he’s like, “It’s got nothing to do with you and me. You know. We agree.” I’m still thinking of the sort of thing where he makes me forget and then [inaudible 00:14:21]. Yeah. [Laughs]

THERAPIST: What do you mean?

CLIENT: Well, you know, like I feel like [inaudible 00:14:31] doesn’t really care and I have rationalized it and have made myself not care that he doesn’t care. You know. So. But I’m not like freaking out about it for some reason. I’m just like not thinking about it. So. Just keep to my regular friends and that’s what it is.

Like I didn’t hear at all from him on Monday, the day that I came back from Ohio to D.C. And it was like, [inaudible 00:15:15] even Graham wasn’t nagging. He called up all the time and that one time. But you know, [inaudible 00:15:24] someone comes to visit you and you kind of send them a taxi. “I hope you got back okay. [inaudible 00:15:31]. It was great having you,” or whatever. It was kind of not saying that made me kind of go, “See? You don’t care.” [laughs]

And then on Monday, I was having dinner with my mom and on the phone, she’s telling me about her friend who’s kind of in trouble and they’re saying her landlord is kicking her out and told her to vacate by the end of the month, and she’s like…she’s a bit disabled. She has a problem with her knees. So she walks with crutches and she lost her job last year and it’s terrible.

I feel like I know this section of the world or like [inaudible 00:16:21]. You know, like I know people who are kind of helpless in situations like this where they don’t have money, where they’re like living hand-to-mouth, and you know, I need to respond with a lot of empathy and a lot of kindness and care. I might not want to. It might depress the hell out of me, but I have to not…I have to look at it in a positive way and with a service attitude, like what can I do without…[inaudible 00:17:03] completely not part of that world at all.

[inaudible 00:17:04] texted yesterday and was like, “I’m coming back early. Let’s party.” I’m just like, “Yeah. Let’s…” Like when I’m thinking about this woman who’s being kicked out of her house. I’m so not thinking about drinking and partying. So that feels like such a dichotomy, two very different worlds.

I don’t know. I guess it was just prompted by I saw my friend in Ohio. She used to be…she wasn’t dating for the longest time. Well she was, but just casually and then she met one guy and they went out like eight months. And the day that she thought they were going together and discuss moving in together or something. You know, like the next step forward, he kind of broke up with her so. She was very, very upset about it. It was like two years. And then, now she’s met this awesome guy and it’s like they just got engaged and they’ve been going out for two years.

The whole time I hung out with them, they were holding hands. It was like…and she’s like, “Yeah. He makes me completely happy.” I was very happy for her, you know, but then I was also a little sad because of my very pathetic situation. I told Amelia that it was me, because she was like, “Yeah. He’s very curious and he wants to get to know things.” I’m like, “Yeah, but you don’t know like the back…what’s going on in the background.”

“We only see each on the weekends and this is like a very weird relationship.” [inaudible 00:19:07]. “We party and we don’t even…it’s not even a weekend [inaudible 00:19:11] because it’s like we don’t have sex.” And you know, I [inaudible 00:19:20] paying my mom’s rent, but it’s like so complicated.

Yeah. I feel like I really just don’t see a future with [inaudible 00:19:36] because we don’t have much in common. And while that I thought was a little exciting, we don’t need to have things [inaudible 00:19:47]. Just need to have attraction or something, but I’m like, “I don’t know.” Like once we get older, we’ll be [inaudible 00:20:03] wear off and everything and we need to talk to each other and what will we say to each other. [pause]

THERAPIST: [inaudible 00:20:34] I’m talking about sort of something that you’re entitled to, like these jobs. That you deserve them because you’re qualified and angry that they’ve…you’re being overlooked. To kind of feeling like…I don’t know. Kind of you’re covering your face?

CLIENT: No. [laughs]

THERAPIST: Is it hard to hear me say this?

CLIENT: No. [laughs] It was just…I just had my hand on my mouth. It looks weird. I’m not covering what I’m saying. [laughs]

THERAPIST: To just feeling like you don’t have much. You know, [inaudible 00:21:06]. He’s not very much a friend has is wonderful [inaudible 00:21:10].

CLIENT: Sorry. What did you say?

THERAPIST: Well feeling like then you don’t have much. Feeling kind of pathetic and have very much…

CLIENT: Yeah. [laughs] Well I’m not trying to have the victim’s attitude. I don’t know. I definitely feel like I don’t have what my friend has. I don’t know. In terms of a relationship [inaudible 00:21:42] like one person making her completely happy. And I do think when she said that, I thought, “Well I’ve been there and that’s like a fallacy.”

Another person cannot make you completely happy. You need a set of people. You need friends and you have to find…you need to first learn to make yourself happy. Not that she was denying any of this. She was [inaudible 00:22:09], but I think between the two of us, she’d be the one to know like the logistics of how to make herself happy.

But still like…I guess I just don’t feel right about sort of so…[laughs]. I’m trying not to make…even think about whether he likes me or not. I’m just like “go with the flow” or whatever. But [inaudible 00:22:52], I’m constantly kind of does make me go there and then “What am I doing with this other guy? You know.

And my new friend. He’s always like, “Why aren’t you…” Like five or six [inaudible 00:23:09] later, he’s like an open topic for discussion amongst a bunch of friends. [Laughs] [pause] I guess what you’re trying to chart up my kind of progression of thought from feeling entitled to feeling like I don’t have any…I guess, I just think of them as two extremes.

THERAPIST: Maybe and also somehow that they’re related.

CLIENT: How are they related?

THERAPIST: I’m not sure.

CLIENT: [inaudible 00:24:12]. Well is it unhealthy to feel entitled?

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think it’s a problem.

CLIENT: [inaudible 00:24:32].

THERAPIST: Yeah. I absolutely think it’s a problem.

CLIENT: Oh why?

THERAPIST: To feel that people owe you things. I think that’s a problem. I do. Especially people who have no relationship to you.

CLIENT: Well, I don’t know. [laughs] I don’t know what to say to that. [laughs] [pause] I guess it comes from the feeling of lack maybe, but I don’t know. I don’t know why I go there and get into that mode. [pause] Yeah. I don’t know.

I guess it just comes from like a sense of fear that if not this, then what? You know? Like if I don’t get this, then I won’t get anything. And like I’m thinking “You have to do this for me.” Or “You have to help me. Otherwise, what am I gonna do?” [inaudible 00:26:22]. But I don’t know if it’s just that. Like I have applied to so many things. You know?

Like maybe 20, 25 by now. So like three or four or five places say no. There’s still no [inaudible 00:26:53] application. Then like one is actively progressing toward some end. You know? But I don’t understand why I feel angry about those few rejections. Isn’t it…like that’s not healthy, but I’m like feeling angry?

THERAPIST: No. It really isn’t.

CLIENT: It’s not like, you know, a healthy dose of pride or anything?

THERAPIST: No, because they haven’t done anything to you. Being angry implies that they’ve done something to you. [pause] A healthy dose of pride is, “Well since I have these talents, someone will recognize them. It didn’t work out with this group.” Sense of pride doesn’t necessarily lead you to be angry with people for not giving you what you think you deserve.

CLIENT: Well, I don’t know. Maybe someone who already has a job and is looking for jobs while they already have a job might not feel angry, because they’re more secure. But someone who’s looking for jobs after two years of not working full-time, may feel kind of scared and anxious.

THERAPIST: Like you?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: We have to think about why that leads to anger.

CLIENT: Actually when I get angry, I just feel judged and compared to and from lack of…and deny everywhere. I guess I take it more personally than I should.

THERAPIST: It can get very personal.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Very, very personal. You said like they’re attacking you.

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: And they’re telling you, “You’re shit. You’re application’s shit and we don’t want you.”

CLIENT: [laughs] [inaudible 00:30:12] [pause] I guess it’s also something that I’m proud of. I mean I take pride in and not getting my due I feel. It’s like I’m not getting my due and yeah. “Don’t invite me for an interview.” [laughs] [pause]

[inaudible 00:31:26] to be aware and as I get more rejections, which I felt certainly you will, I’m trying to make sure…keeps me aware of it. Getting angry or hasn’t rationalized it. I keep telling myself I have other things that I can be proud of. [laughs]

THERAPIST: Well that’s just it. Somehow that it just is such a blow to you.

CLIENT: Yeah. [pause] Yeah. I think it’s mostly that I think this is something I can do really well and they don’t think so. And I take that as a blow and like I take that very personally and I just have to learn to detach myself from it and kind of realize that I don’t know what they need. They might have put an ad out, but maybe it wasn’t as well written. Maybe I meant something and that…you know? I mean there really are candidates. Maybe it’s fine. Maybe they want to hire someone they know, you know? So what. [inaudible 00:33:08] impasses [inaudible 00:33:13].

THERAPIST: I mean they may…I mean there’s eight million reasons why companies don’t hire particular people than others. They may want someone who has continued work experience in the field.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: They maybe learned either that you couldn’t get a job or what’s the truth is, is you didn’t want a job because you were doing other things. I’m sure they don’t want to hire someone ideally who’s going to work for them for a year and leave and do the things they’d rather do. They’d rather hire someone who wants a career in this field, which you don’t.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And those needs are different. It has nothing to do about what you can and can’t do. It’s not a performance. It’s about their needs and their interests in having someone who wants to do this job.

CLIENT: Yeah. [inaudible 00:34:17] think about it that way. [laughs] [pause]

THERAPIST: I’m making sort of very direct, strong statements about this because I do think this is a problem for you. It creates a dynamic for you, where you see people very hostilely. And you see them as hostile to you.

Then you feel hostile toward them and I think it’s really not healthy for you. I think it doesn’t make you feel safe or comfortable. I mean it makes you feel angry and resentful and I don’t think you need those feelings. I mean we all have them at times, but…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think you could have space for other feelings.

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel like that is many scenarios.

THERAPIST: [inaudible 00:35:42].

CLIENT: [inaudible 00:35:44] the department [inaudible 00:35:46] teaching next semester and [inaudible 00:35:48]. I’m like really mad at them for other things, but things like this and I guess I’m realizing now that this is [inaudible 00:35:58] where I feel like I’m being denied something I was entitled to or whatever, you know. Whereas, it’s like irrational kind of thinking on everyone’s part [inaudible 00:36:12] or just other things going on. Instead of them being like taking away some things that I feel I’m entitled to.

THERAPIST: When you feel you’re entitled to and you feel like when you’re not given it, it’s such a personal attack.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean that’s…I feel like that creates so much distress for you. I imagine 99.5 percent of the time someone is preoccupied. They’ve other things to do. Who knows?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But you take it as a statement on you and then you want to take them on.

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: And it occupies a lot of your mental and emotional space that could quite frankly be spent on other things.

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: Like your creative endeavors. [pause]

CLIENT: Well at least I don’t feel like this in every area…or I think I don’t. [laughs]

THERAPIST: When you say that, are you feeling badly about having my pointing this out?

CLIENT: No. No. I’m actually very grateful and I know this will help me grow. But I’m just wondering like how and what scenario like do I act this way because are there other areas where I’m more blasé, more Zen about accepting things that don’t come my way? And if so, maybe I can bring that thing of Zen out into other areas.

THERAPIST: That sounds [inaudible 00:38:30].

CLIENT: [laughs] Like I guess what I was trying to say earlier, like I don’t care that [inaudible 00:38:40] doesn’t care or doesn’t seem to me to care or doesn’t care in the way that I understand care. I feel like I’m okay with that just the way that I rationalize it. I rationalize it or I have other people in my life who care the way that I want them to care, and that makes it okay that he doesn’t care. You know?

And the sex thing to me like I mean at least I’m wanting to say I’m not like…I’m not like [inaudible 00:39:15], “Get the fuck outta my house.” You know, [inaudible 00:39:17] be…she’s not going to satisfy me in bed.” I’m just [inaudible 00:39:22] or Graham. I’m not like them I feel. You know. I’m just like more curious about [inaudible 00:39:36] sexuality than…I don’t know. I mean I am a little disappointed, but I might have sex. But… [laughs]

THERAPIST: Have you asked him?

CLIENT: Yeah. He was like, “I don’t know. I’m just don’t feel sexual these days.” He’s very…he’s been very busy, but I don’t know. We were watching this movie in which this guy is like addicted to porn and he [inaudible 00:40:05] that and work for every day. There’s a time [inaudible 00:40:11] when they get back.

I’m like, “That was so curious to me.” And I’m like watching porn, but not having sex. You know. And having that kind of thing morally opposed to one night stands and [inaudible 00:40:33] own kind of issues [inaudible 00:40:37] that he can’t really get an erection. You know.

THERAPIST: I thought he can, but it’s hard for him to maintain. He can’t get one at all?

CLIENT: Well depends. Like when he’s not feeling sexual, I guess he probably can then…if he does, it lasts very short. I’m just curious. [laughs] his sexuality [inaudible 00:41:06] think about it. [pause] Yes. And another thing that I don’t get and it’s like, it’s [inaudible 00:41:32] really do it, but I’m attracted to him for whatever reason and I met Terry, but I’m not attracted…[laughs] I guess that happens. That’s not uncommon. It’s just, you know, ironic. [Pause]

THERAPIST: When I was asking you before whether it was hard to hear my feedback and you said you’re grateful. I was glad to hear that because I want to help you with this. This is not coming from a place of judgment. This is coming from a place of concern in seeing that you’re using your very wonderful energies in ways that are not useful to you and you’re making yourself feel badly.

CLIENT: Yeah. Thank you. [laughs] I feel that definitely. [pause] Yeah. because I was a bit concerned only just like that [inaudible 00:42:40] had said exactly what [inaudible 00:42:47].

THERAPIST: These words being…

CLIENT: What did she say? You know, a whole bunch of…you know like persons and all that. And then she also said like, “No one owes you anything. The truth is no one owes you anything [inaudible 00:43:02]” I don’t know what she meant by that. Maybe she picked up on like my sense of when [inaudible 00:43:16]. I’m trying to understand why or how like [inaudible 00:43:19] a doctor. She knew of a place where I could stay and write. And I said thank you and I paid for the utilities.

So I don’t see why she [inaudible 00:43:42] entitled. I don’t. I don’t know. Maybe she was just like shooting in the dark. I cannot just throw out, cover all her bases and make sure everything she thinks maybe wrong with me just to judge me and make me feel really small [inaudible 00:43:58]. She was like just in attack mode, but I know that you’re not in attack mode. [laughs]

THERAPIST: I’m glad you know that. I’m glad you do.

CLIENT: Yeah. It can be very scary because you hear the same words coming out of your mouth. [laughs] [inaudible 00:44:22] them. [laughs]

THERAPIST: Well, I don’t know where that came from, from her. It could just be words. It could be that she was picking up on something about you, maybe about…for me, it comes from a place of caring and concern.

CLIENT: Yeah. [ laughs] Okay. [pause] [inaudible 00:45:01]. They don’t understand. Like I don’t feel entitled to sex. I don’t feel entitled to caring. Maybe that’s just the dynamic of dating. You don’t allow yourself to go there. So I’m just trying to take that knowledge and bring it here. Why do I feel entitled to a job?

THERAPIST: It’s the counterpoint to what I was thinking of when you were taking about sort of this feeling entitled bad. And my thought that I didn’t share is maybe feeling entitle to some things isn’t bad. Like should you be entitled to feel cared for? Should you feel entitled to be respected? Some things to feel entitled for maybe aren’t bad.

CLIENT: Oh. [laughs] Just like the opposite. Like I should feel entitled to be cared for and have sex with, but not feel entitled for a job, a total stranger.

THERAPIST: Maybe.

CLIENT: [Laughs]

THERAPIST: It speaks in part to the context of the relationship. It made me think about how that woman from long ago, who didn’t do the interview that you wanted her to do, when she was supposed to write it up.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And feeling very angry at her and how you tend to feel entitled to get things from people you don’t know very well. As if there’s sort of this implicit obligation between you and another person whom you really don’t have a relationship with or maybe not much of one versus people that you actually are in very close contact with, with people by definition of being in a relationship have obligations to each other.

I mean, we’re in a particular kind of relationship. I have an obligation to be here almost always and be present and be…And if I didn’t give you that, if I didn’t show up sometimes, if I seemed distracted or whatever, you are entitled to those things from me, because we’re in that kind of relationship.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I see that. But I really don’t want to like feel entitled to things in a relationship.

THERAPIST: Because?

CLIENT: I don’t know. I don’t know if I have the knack to kind of demand what I want. Maybe I have been very demanding and it went badly and I hated that person that I became when I was demanding.

THERAPIST: Or maybe it’s now safe for you to demand things from people you don’t know very well.

CLIENT: Yeah. [laughs]

THERAPIST: That’s something to talk about for sure. Well we need to stop, but I’ll see you tomorrow. Right? At 10 o’clock.

CLIENT: Ten?

THERAPIST: At ten.

CLIENT: Sorry I didn’t respond. I thought I did.

THERAPIST: Don’t worry. I figured you also…well you said the morning anyway. I figured that, that would work for you. So I have you down for them.

CLIENT: Yeah. I will actually.

THERAPIST: Okay. So I have you down for 10.

CLIENT: Have a good day.

THERAPIST: Thank you very much.

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