TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

[Sounds of things being moved]

THERAPIST: [00:00:41] Hi. Come on in.

CLIENT: Sure. I’m just going to grab some water.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: [Sighs] [00:01:00]

Got it.

THERAPIST: Oh, thank you.

CLIENT: [Sighs] [00:02:00]

[Sounds of things being moved]

CLIENT: I didn’t really have much time to think about yesterday’s discussion. [Pauses] I didn’t have too much of downtime, which was good. [Chuckles] But, yeah, I guess the question of [inaudible at 00:02:29] feeling entitled with complete strangers or people I don’t know so well, and then not feeling entitled with people I know very well. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I don’t know. [Chuckles] I guess I should think about that. [Clears throat] [Pauses] It is not that I don’t. I don’t think I could say that, “Oh, I don’t take anyone for granted.” [Chuckles] [00:03:03]

I don’t think that is true, or maybe that is not even related. But isn’t – doesn’t that mean that you expect things from people?

THERAPIST: That you expect…?

CLIENT: If you take people for granted, doesn’t that mean you’ve been – you expect things? Or is that, again, another extreme? [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: I guess. I always think of taking for granted as not being appreciative of what you’re given, and so maybe that means that you’re expecting things and not appreciating them.

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Or feeling entitled.

THERAPIST: Maybe.

CLIENT: Yes, so that is what I mean. It is not like I don’t feel entitled with respect to my mom, and I definitely take her for granted many times. But maybe that is not the way I should [ph]. [00:03:59]

We were talking about [pauses] – what does it – what does that look like, like feeling entitled in a healthy way, from someone with respect to someone you’re close with?

THERAPIST: Hm, that is a good question.

CLIENT: Mm. [Sighs] [Pauses for 25 seconds] It is like I said, I feel like I do both. I both kind of take people for granted and push them away at the same time. [00:05:01]

Well, not at the same time but you kind of – so maybe that – those two behaviors are like extremes in some form, like vis-à-vis each other but also in their own kind of spectrum of behaviors. I don’t know. [Pauses for nine seconds] Right now, I’m not getting in touch with Nelson and [pauses] – so I visited Ohio last – this past weekend, and he was working all the time, like – well, I shouldn’t say that. But, actually, he did all day Saturday and Sunday, and I got into Ohio at ten on Friday, and – Thursday, he [chuckles] – I had to wait for him to come back home, which is, I guess, OK. [00:06:04]

And I was waiting outside the building for like an hour. But – and, yeah, Friday, also, he got back after nine, and we didn’t go out for dinner and stuff. But – but, yeah, all day Saturday and Sunday, he was working, and I tried to work, too. And then I came back and [chuckles] I kind of saw Chris [ph], and he told me he’d paid my mom’s rent. [Chuckles] So [pauses] – and then I didn’t hear back from Nelson on Monday, and I was like, “See? What is this? He doesn’t care.” Even Graham wouldn’t been like, “Hey, you got back OK?” [Chuckles] [00:06:59]

And then, on Tuesday, Nelson was texting, “I’m coming back tomorrow. Yea! Let’s party!” [Chuckles] I was just like – I was trying to be all songbird like – mm-mm…

THERAPIST: You were mad at him.

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: You were mad at him.

CLIENT: Yeah, well, mad but – no, but not really mad. [Pauses] Well, maybe a little mad, but I feel like I don’t even have the right to be mad or I’m not giving myself the right to be mad. It is like, “See? This is what I expected from him,” or telling myself not to expect anything and [pauses] to [sighs] lower my expectations in terms of caring and stuff. [Pauses] And [pauses] comparing him to Chris and also comparing him to my friend’s fiancé… [00:08:02]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: [Pauses] And, yeah, yesterday, he – he was texting and calling, “Can I pick you up?” and this and that, and I was like, “No, I have work.” [Chuckles] So…

THERAPIST: It sounds like you were mad.

CLIENT: [Chuckles] I guess, but I’m in a weird situation where I’m looking at Chris and feeling all these emotions, like guilt and love. And he has sprained his back, so I feel not pity but like I want to take care of him, and all these motherly feelings, as well. So [pauses] it is like still in that confused [chuckles] state between these two guys. But [pauses] I don’t want to be [pauses] keeping peop – them in the dark anymore. [00:09:06]

But I don’t know. So [pauses] I guess I was trying to understand but not really trying to understand the state of married [ph] how I’d feel about people who I’m intimate with, if I expect things or not. [Pauses] We I don’t know. Earlier when I was living with Chris, he and I would help my mom with her rent. I would pay a portion, and then he would pay a portion. He paid the bigger portion and then we switched, and I’d pay the bigger and he’d pay the smaller. And then, when I moved out, over the summer, my mom – she used up her savings and paid all the things herself. [00:10:02]

[Sighs] And then Chris stopped, and then he started again and he has paid a couple of times. So it is a weird situation, so I don’t know. I can’t really expect help – financial help from him; although, he is helping. This month, he has helped, so [pauses] I don’t at all feel entitled to his money. And [pauses] – yeah, it is all – it is all very complicated in the sense that I guess I – I mean, I did help him when he was finishing his Ph.D. and he wasn’t paying rent or whatever. And we had a huge fight and all that, and it was ugly, and I realized that I was very ugly that moment, like the lowest kind of [chuckles] performance by me. [00:11:05]

It was pretty bad with me to be that way.

THERAPIST: Be what way?

CLIENT: No, I just kind of brought it up and I was like, “How could you ?” and like, “How could you take advantage of me like this? And I was struggling, and I had a dream, and you crushed it,” [chuckles] like really feeling victimized, like two years ago, three years ago. I regret feeling that way and saying – I regret saying those things to him. And – but, yeah, so I guess I could say that, yeah, there is this kind of thing where I helped him, so friends do that for each other. But I really don’t feel like – feel entitled taking money from Chris. And sim – I think, similar, with Nelson, also, it really – he buys me things. [00:12:00]

Last weekend or two weekends ago, we went shopping, and [pauses] [sighs] we just bought a couple of things and, at the counter, [chuckles] he was like – he is really into discounts, like, he won’t buy anything full price. So I was getting a student discount on these things, and so I pulled out my student ID, and the girl looked at it and said, “OK, ten percent off.” [Chuckles] And then, when the time came to pay, Nelson pulled out his credit card, and these two women at the counter – I feel now it is my manner [ph] that I’m attaching to their look, but I felt like they were looking at me like, “Yeah,” like… [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: “Yeah –” what?

CLIENT: Well, you know, like… [pauses] [00:13:00]

I – what is that internal [ph] called? Like [pauses] [chuckles] I don’t know. We didn’t look married. We didn’t look like we were in a legitimate relationship. It looked transactional and all that, like I was being paid this way for certain services [chuckles] which I actually don’t even perform, so… [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Hm, like you were a prostitute or some…?

CLIENT: Yeah!

THERAPIST: You were keeping him company and getting some reimbursement for it.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I have the – I have the Pretty Woman flashbacks a lot. [Chuckles] Not flashbacks but like flashes a lot of times with Nelson. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: They didn’t have sex, either – right? – or they did.

THERAPIST: In Pretty Woman? Yeah, she was a prostitute.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, she was, but I don’t think they actually had sex. [00:14:00]

THERAPIST: No, in the story they did.

CLIENT: Did? Oh, you mean the film or…?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, in the film, they did.

CLIENT: Oh. It has been a while since I saw that, so…

THERAPIST: You know, she is a prostitute.

CLIENT: No, she was! I don’t know, but I felt like maybe that was what was different about their relationship. What was different was Richard Gere does fall in love with her.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I don’t think it was sex, but I’m pretty sure they had sex. I’ll rewatch the movie but…

CLIENT: Oh, [pauses] yeah.

THERAPIST: I don’t think they were kissing. I think that was something that she – if I’m remembering this correctly, kissing was very intimate, and so she didn’t kiss her clients.

CLIENT: Oh, OK.

THERAPIST: There was something about him that that was intimacy. But I think they were having sex. [Chuckles]

CLIENT: Oh, OK. [Pauses] They’re just attached by innocent kind of – maybe, also in their morals. [Chuckles] But the thing that, “She is a prostitute, but – and this really rich and handsome [chuckles] businessman just needs companionship.” [Chuckles] [00:15:00]

THERAPIST: Well, there is a way I think that that movie tried to sanitize their relationship, too, in a way. They tried to make it look very pretty and not as grungy as – and grimy as it can be. [Chuckles]

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pauses] And so she goes shopping on her own. Right? She doesn’t – there is that scene, I think, like she is on Sunset Boulevard or something with his credit card, and…

THERAPIST: I imagine, probably, not hers. [Chuckles]

CLIENT: Well, but she…

THERAPIST: …Buys stuff?

CLIENT: Or the sales people just gave her hell or whatever.

THERAPIST: Right. Well, because, when she first walks in and she looks like a streetwalker, and…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: …She looks disrespectful, unrespectable.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pauses] But, yeah, I don’t think I have anything like that, that can make me look disrespectable. But – just I know that look I don’t know [chuckles] because I look at other girls [ph]. [Chuckles] So… [00:16:00]

Because if he was – he would have just paid, I think, we could have been mistaken for a husband and wife, but the fact that he asked for my student ID and then paid – I don’t know. Don’t married couples share bank accounts? [Chuckles] Some may, some may not, I guess.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Around that [ph] that is always the case. For – on our third or fourth date, when we walked into this bar, and that woman was like, “Oh, your wife is so pretty,” and [chuckles] we were just like, “Thank you.” [Chuckles] But [pauses]…

THERAPIST: This is what I started thinking about – I started thinking about the kind of – what is the word? – just like – not models but particularly of icons. But, anyway, particular sort of roles that women play in your mind. [00:17:02]

And so there is the forsaken wife, like your mom.

CLIENT: Hm…

THERAPIST: And then there is sort of the unrespectable mistress other, like the women that your dad was involved with.

CLIENT: Hm…

THERAPIST: And it is like there are sort of these particular archetypes that you, then, sort of gravitate toward…

CLIENT: Hm…

THERAPIST: …Or associate to, maybe. I don’t know if you gravitate to but you associate to identify with.

CLIENT: Well, there is that. But it is not just my interpretation. One time, I was telling Chris about Nelson, and he was like, “Ah! So you’re like the trophy girlfriend.” [Chuckles] I was like, “What? [Chuckles] What does that even mean?” I don’t think I’m that pretty to be like a trophy girlfriend or wife, but I do think of that – this relationship like – subconsciously, like that. [00:17:58]

Since he makes money, he is like this corporate guy, and I’m the corporate wife who is bored and is yawning, or she is decked out in jewels. But then she is going to have an affair [chuckles] when the gentleman who has left her. You know, [pauses] but… [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: I think that these are absolutely images you project onto these situations.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Chuckles] No, but then that – sure, we all think of ourselves in these roles to some extent. But I do go back to my own work, and I’m like, “No, this is who I am. I’m a student. I’m a writer. I’m a struggling writer. I have a mom,” and this and that, “and I have responsibilities, and this is who I am, that is who I am.” So I do try and – what you’d say – try to find an anchor independent of everyone. [00:19:02]

But then, I guess when it comes to [pauses] – relationships are not even relationships. It is just like other people come into the picture, and certain things happen, certain interactions happen. And in trying to understand them or trying to not get disappointed, I guess, I take the help of these various roles to understand what is happening or contain my disappointment. It is a bit weird to have him pay for my things, and it is a bit weird to have Chris pay my mom’s rent. How do I deal [chuckles] with this? How do I not feel utterly hopeless?

THERAPIST: About…?

CLIENT: Taking financial help from these guys. [00:20:00]

THERAPIST: And what is “hopeless” about it?

CLIENT: Well, I feel pretty bad, [chuckles] like I can’t take care of my own stuff. I mean, I could but they’re doing it for me. And I’m like that’s fine. I’m not going to have to spend my own money, so [pauses] [chuckles] [pauses for five seconds] – I mean, yeah, I do say – I did say to Chris, “I will pay you back.” Yes, if I do end up finding a full-time job, that would be – that can happen soon. But how do you pay – how do I pay Nelson back for all these gifts? I guess I’ll have to give him gifts. [Chuckles] You know… [00:21:00]

[Silence for seven seconds]

THERAPIST: I don’t feel that there is a way to pay back, only because of the experience you have in taking them. You don’t take them out of a feeling of, “He wants to give me something as his girlfriend or somebody who is important to him, and I appreciate the gesture and the meaning.” To you, it feels like he is giving this to you because your relationship is transactional, and you feel like, “Great, I need some money. This is awesome. I [chuckles] – “ – not, “I care about Nelson and I appreciate the gift he is giving.” So it is – there is a meaning attached, that you project onto him, that you feel.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That you do feel it to be a matter of convenience. I don’t think it is the only feeling you have, but you feel it to be a matter of convenience. “Great, the less I have to pay for.”

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And then it makes you cheap.

CLIENT: Yeah, it does. [Chuckles] And it makes me feel like I’m not entitled. [00:22:01]

THERAPIST: Well, it makes you feel like a whore.

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Well, yeah. A whore who doesn’t have actual [chuckles] sex but [pauses]…

THERAPIST: I’m looking at [ph] the irony of it.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pauses] No, [pauses] what was I going to say? But, yeah, I do feel the positive feelings that I care about him, too, and now I want to do nice things for him. But those translate into me cooking for him and nothing involving money, because, right now, I don’t have money. There are moments with Chris where I would spend money on him. And now, with Nelson, I’m always asking, “Can I cook? Can I cook? Don’t eat out. It is unhealthy. I can make the exact same thing at home. Let me do this.” So he is like, “Yeah, yeah.” [00:23:05]

But – so I feel like he doesn’t even understand; or maybe he does, but he just has different values, and he knows the value of money more than the value of a nice gesture of a home-cooked meal. [Pauses] Which could be true, to some extent, that you think this is something I’m projecting on him. It may be partly so, but [pauses for six seconds] – but I guess, to your earlier point, thinking transactionally, I guess, perhaps gets in the way of me [sighs] feeling entitled with people I know very well, so in a way, then, I seek it out elsewhere. [Chuckles] [00:24:05]

[Silence for 27 seconds]

THERAPIST: This is what I was thinking about – I was thinking about your mom’s rent being paid by you or by Chris, or by – whatever. And I was thinking that I think your mother loves you very much; I really do.

CLIENT: Mm…

THERAPIST: And I wonder what she has to do with those feelings, when she takes money from you, especially knowing that you don’t have that much.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I wonder how much she has to compromise herself in order to do that. [00:25:01]

Because I imagine it is a great compromise to herself…

CLIENT: It is.

THERAPIST: …To do that to someone. And it is not – there is a practical element, but your mother has skills and so forth; it is not simply that she is a retarded, disabled person.

CLIENT: Mm…

THERAPIST: Just to be very blunt about it…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: …That she does have – so if she – she could find a way, but she is still – acts out this dynamic with you, I think, to great detriment to herself and her own sense of a – as a person.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I see that, because she is very independent, and she likes – she doesn’t appreciate being treated this way, that she owes anyone anything. She does have a sense of self-respect. So I – to the extent that she won’t make certain compromises that a lot of people would, maybe not people her age but… [00:26:04]

I wanted her to live with this other friend of hers. That would have brought both their rents down by 50 percent, definitely my mom’s. But, no, she is like, “That woman kind of – I like her and I can spend maybe three to four hours with her but no more. She dominates in the kitchen. She talks a lot, and she’ll drive me crazy. I’m not sharing an apartment with her.” So she does have that sense of, “This is my space, and I want to own this. This is my kitchen.” And I can come in and kind of criticize it, and use it, and clean it up for her. That is fine. But there are certain domains where she demands ownership and respect, so it is, I think, hard for her to – to find herself, as a parent, being in this situation of taking instead of giving. [00:27:09]

But, after a while, it’ll come to this. She will reach a point [chuckles] where she won’t be able to work, so she will have to rely on me to – whatever it is – pay her rent or move in [ph] together. But, [sighs] yeah, I guess the dynamics are just [pauses] – it is just the way it is right now because of tight finances for everyone – well, for her and me. But she does kind of have a way to rationalize. Like, when she paid her own rent last month, she was like, “Yeah, it is only this much more money, because I’ve already paid security deposit and last month’s rent, so it is just this…” [00:28:05]

So she was trying to rationalize it. It is like, “Home stretch OK, almost there, almost there [chuckles] for the year.”

THERAPIST: And I would argue that I don’t think it the situation that is dictating it. I think that the tight finances are dictated by the dynamic.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: [Clears throat] The dynamic – if she were involved in this dynamic, she would make more money. She would find a way to have means.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think the dynamic is driving the situation, not vice versa.

CLIENT: Mm, yeah, maybe. I…

THERAPIST: I don’t think it is just situational.

CLIENT: Mm. [Pauses] I don’t know. I have to think about that [chuckles] or ask her.

THERAPIST: Well, which is – well [chuckles] – yeah, I don’t think it is something that she is aware of, even, but that is sort of why, when this comes up, I point out a lot that she actually does have ways of earning a living for more money than makes now, for sure. [00:29:01]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But she chooses not to. It is not just that she finds herself in this situation.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pauses] Well, once again, I’m going to have to help her to find [chuckles] jobs. But it is [pauses] – that is OK. Yeah, she was working ‘til – I want to say [inaudible at 00:29:27] in [pauses] 2009 or ‘10. And up until 2010, she made good, decent money. And then – I guess she started this program so, since then, she has been – I guess it has been [chuckles] four years. So yeah… [Pauses] [00:30:00]

[Silence for 11 seconds]

THERAPIST: I think I made a comment, also, not simply to talk about your mom and your role with your mom but also how – sort of how you identify with her. I think that there is a way in which taking stuff from Nelson in the way that you do – not in terms of the experience you’re having, not in actually – specifically what you take, really, is at a sacrifice to you. I think you feel cheap. I think you feel exploitative [ph]. I think you feel like a paid – a paid companion.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I think, at the moment, it feels nice to have nice things and be taken care of. I think there is a nice feeling in it, but I also think it is a great compromise to yourself…

CLIENT: Mm…

THERAPIST: …In how you think of yourself and feel about yourself as a person and as a woman.

CLIENT: Should I not take things from him?

THERAPIST: Well, I was going to say – you see, I think it is less about what you do or don’t take, and more about the experience you have in the taking it and the motivation.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:31:00]

THERAPIST: I don’t think it is simply a matter of what you do or don’t take. Does that make sense?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [Pauses] I think it is a lot more about the feelings associated with it. And maybe you should take less; I don’t know. [Chuckles]

CLIENT: [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: I mean, I’m not – this is not about what you – how you should conduct yourself with him.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That is your – that is your choice. It is just how – the experience you have in it.

CLIENT: Mm…

THERAPIST: To the extent that you feel it is convenient that he pays for things and not you – I think that is what is sort of – it comes at a price…

CLIENT: Mm…

THERAPIST: …Because then he is sort of a matter of convenience his money. It is just [pauses]…

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pauses for ten seconds] Yeah, I don’t like that dynamic. [Chuckles] [00:32:01]

I want to pull out my card on certain occasions and pay. You know? [Pauses for 23 seconds] I don’t understand what you mean about how it – how this – my experience with Nelson, in terms of money, has – what it has to do with my mom and my dynamic.

THERAPIST: I think that you’re in similar roles to her. I think that she – you’re in a similar role to Nelson as she is to you.

CLIENT: Yeah. That is – I can see that. [Pauses] [00:32:59]

THERAPIST: Like, “This may not make me feel good as a person but at least I get my rent paid.” [Chuckles] “At least I get nice stuff.” You know?

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pauses for 12 seconds] How do couples make this work? [Chuckles] [Pauses] I mean, does there have to be equality in – in every way? Doesn’t this happen, where one person makes more and the other person makes less, and so the – the wealthier person pays more often for things, and the – and the – the cheaper person doesn’t necessarily get an [chuckles] inferiority complex?

THERAPIST: The “cheaper person?”

CLIENT: The poorer person – I don’t know the…

THERAPIST: Do they cost – do they have a lower price tag, the cheaper person? [00:34:01]

CLIENT: [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: It costs less to purchase them?

CLIENT: “Cheaper” as in it is a misuse of the word, but like…

THERAPIST: It is sort of an interesting slip.

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Yeah.

THERAPIST: The person of lesser value…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [Pauses] The bargain-basement person?

CLIENT: Yeah. [Chuckles] [Pauses for seven seconds] So I don’t know if this is what you’re saying here – are you saying that, if my mom [pauses] can take care of herself, financially, then, suddenly, I’ll be able to have a much better attitude about money, and I won’t feel cheap?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: What – no?

THERAPIST: I don’t – I don’t think that is true. You said, “Are you saying this –?” and then I just said, “No, I’m not saying that.”

CLIENT: [Chuckles] I think I’ve forgotten what I said. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: You said, “So what you’re saying is, if my mom takes better care of myself – herself…” [00:35:02]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: A, I don’t think your mother is going to take better care of herself; your mother is who she is.

CLIENT: Yeah. Then who, in this scenario, will [chuckles] change? I guess it is me.

THERAPIST: Well, you don’t have to, but I can at least talk to you about the advantages of it.

CLIENT: No! I want to change.

THERAPIST: I know you do.

CLIENT: I’m here. [Chuckles] I’m [inaudible at 00:35:23]. [Pauses for five seconds] Yeah, I don’t know what – which aspect of me to change, specifically, in this context. [Pauses] I – should I get a job? That’ll take care of everything, or – no?

THERAPIST: It is interesting. Around this topic, in particular, you’re looking at, “Should I just take less from Nelson? Should I do this –?” You’re looking at it much more about…

CLIENT: …The situation?

THERAPIST: Yeah, or what you can do to change – yeah. [00:36:03]

CLIENT: Well, I don’t exactly know. Sorry. I know you’re saying it is about feelings. So what feeling, precisely, could I change? Feelings are more nebulous, so I’m having a hard time grasping on that.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, I hear that. I hear that you’re trying – that is what you’re trying – you’re trying to change something. You’re trying to figure out how to do it, and so…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: …You’re trying to come up with ways how that could happen. I hear that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so I’m trying to think about how to sort of talk about it a little bit differently. I understand why it is so confusing. It is extremely confusing.

CLIENT: [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: I can understand why it is extremely confusing for you. It is – it is caught up in eight million different things. What I started thinking about is that I think that money is its own topic for you, but it comes up in other ways, too, like people who have – how you feel, have more inherent value than you do. So it could be in terms of money; it could be in terms of status, just like the cheaper person could be the person who makes less money or could be the person who has less education… [00:37:02]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: …Or I don’t know what. But – so there is also that whole thing about how people are evaluated in terms of these very specific, concrete, external criteria, as well…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: …The person who is worth less.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so I understand it is very hard to wrap your mind around.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pauses for ten seconds] But I feel like some bits of me are changing. I feel like, slowly, I’m starting to value myself not more but less less. You know? [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: [Chuckles]

CLIENT: [Chuckles] You know. [Pauses]

THERAPIST: Yeah, that is a good start.

CLIENT: Yeah! [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Like living on my own and kind of learning that I can deal with things on my own.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [00:38:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, and pay my own rent, [pauses] find jobs for myself, and cultivate my own kind of writerly [ph] circle, and not lean on Chris for money or for intellectual stimulation, or friends, and excitement. [Sighs] So [pauses for five seconds] – apparently, I definitely need to work more on feeling more worthy, having more value. [Chuckles] [Pauses] I know you say it is not situational, but the situation does have a bearing.

THERAPIST: I understand. The problem is it feeds on itself. [00:39:01]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: The dynamic creates a situation which then supports the dynamic.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So understand that it is not completely unrelated to it. If your mother was independently wealthy, it would be a different story.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I understand that, if she inherited money or something – I mean, I understand that, but – but I don’t – it is not only situational. I should say that.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pauses for five seconds] Yeah, doing things that make me feel worthy, like, “I can do this,” and, “I’m good at this.” [Pauses] Yeah, just pursuing things that strengthen me…

[Silence for 14 seconds]

[00:40:00]

CLIENT: Which is why I’m thinking of a job because, like Nelson says, “Wealth brings a lot of confidence.” [Chuckles] So…

THERAPIST: Sometimes.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Then, again, it could also be a way of using something external to try to change something internal, which doesn’t always happen.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: There are some very wealthy people with great feelings of inadequacy.

CLIENT: [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: The two are not hand in hand.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pauses for 11 seconds] But, yeah, I don’t know. It is nothing radical but I guess I – what the textbook says you feel adequate when you keep falling and picking yourself back up. So…

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Right? [Chuckles] [00:41:00]

THERAPIST: I never heard that expression but it is interesting.

CLIENT: Oh, I don’t know. [Chuckles] Yeah. I don’t know. That is what I think of.

THERAPIST: Hm.

[Silence for 72 seconds]

[00:42:00]

CLIENT: So, again, taking money or giving money is not the issue; it is how you feel about it? [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: And when you talk about the married – like, “How do married couples deal with it, if one person makes more money?” Which it is true that most married – most people don’t make exactly the same money, and when two people value each other as individuals, the external trappings are not of who makes more money, who does more housework, who went to a fancier school. These are – these are really kind of subsidiary things…

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:43:00]

THERAPIST: …If they value each other as people, and what they give to the relationship as human beings.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pauses] Yeah. [Sighs] [Pauses for 28 seconds] Yeah, I think I definitely need to work on feeling more [chuckles] valuable.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm, I do, too.

CLIENT: I don’t know. Yeah, if there were a trick I knew of then I would use it, but… [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Well, in a sense, it is – it starts by figuring out what isn’t going to work, and I think you try things that don’t work. [00:44:04]

CLIENT: Yeah, things like?

THERAPIST: Well, this – like, oh, if you just had more degrees or more success, or more this, and sort of pursuing the wrong paths; or no longer pursuing the wrong paths is a good start.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pauses] What are the right paths? [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Well, what we’re talking about.

CLIENT: Yeah?

THERAPIST: How to value yourself.

CLIENT: How? [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: The $10,000 Question – ba-da-bump!

CLIENT: [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: It costs only $10,000, was the $10,000 – I don’t know if you were here in the U.S. before the $10,000 Pyramid. It was a game show.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: It was the $10,000 Question. I think it was $10,000, like the price amount you could get for – it was just a game show. I don’t know. [Chuckles]

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: [Chuckles] We do need to stop for today, but I will see you on Monday.

CLIENT: OK. OK, thank you.

THERAPIST: OK.

CLIENT: Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thank you. [00:45:00]

CLIENT: Bye.

[Door opens and closes]

END TRANSCRIPT