TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in.

[Silence from 00:00:08 to 00:00:22]

THERAPIST: I just wanted to let you know, two weeks from today, which is the marathon, I’m not going to be in the office in the morning, but I’m happy to e-mail you some options for the rest of the week. I’m just not sure that morning.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: And we’ll have to figure out another time.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: So it is the twenty-first? Yes.

CLIENT: So are you going to be watching or…?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I know a lot of people who run it, so I try to support it. It is also hard to get here from my house [chuckles], because of where I am on the course, so it would be challenging, so both of those things.

CLIENT: Ah. [00:01:00]

THERAPIST: I’m not running it this year.

CLIENT: [Chuckles] You can’t run when you’re pregnant – right? – or…?

THERAPIST: Oh, you can run; you just can’t run 20. I still run a lot. I just…

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I just can’t run 26 miles. Not advisable.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: No, but plenty of people run.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: I know people who run – ran five days before they gave birth, five miles before they gave birth.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Yeah, the day before. No, no real reason you can’t run.

CLIENT: Wow. How long have you been running?

THERAPIST: About ten years.

CLIENT: Wow. So you didn’t start in your teens or anything?

THERAPIST: I was much older.

CLIENT: Oh, wow. And your knees – [chuckles] how are they?

THERAPIST: They’re good. Are you concerned about yours?

CLIENT: Yeah? Yeah. No, mine hurt. I’m not that great of a runner. I also started running in college, just like on the treadmill and then around the lake I used to live, and around – near… [00:02:01]

And, on and off, I have been – I run. But my knees hurt. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And I started taking glucosamine – someone told me to – so…

THERAPIST: Do you want running advice? Is that it? [Chuckles] Because I can give you a little bit. I don’t know if it is…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I imagine that, if you had someone look at your form, that might help.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Some people’s mechanics are – I mean, some people – they’re 75, they’ve run all their lives, and their knees are fine.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: Part of it is just to know how each of us is built slightly differently.

CLIENT: Genetics. OK.

THERAPIST: Yeah, if – it is biomechanics.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But, sometimes, if someone looks at your form, if you have someone who could look at your form or – things like that slightly change the way you run, and that could maybe help.

CLIENT: Do you run on – outside or…?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm, always.

CLIENT: …On the street or…?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Yeah, people say [inaudible at 00:02:54]…

THERAPIST: Ice, snow – I don’t care.

CLIENT: Wow. [Chuckles] Yeah, I’m going to get back into that habit, because I think it keeps my back strong. [00:03:04]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And I have a weak back, so…

THERAPIST: There are a local clinics that are investigating running gait, and so that you often – you can sort of enroll in their study.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And they videotape you, and you get a free analysis of your gait.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: Like, Harv – I know Brown has a bunch of studies that they’re doing on running gaits and so forth, and so it could be as simple as doing that or just doing some strengthening exercises around your knees to make them stronger.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: Some people are just more lucky in terms of not having things hurt when they run. [Chuckles] You know?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, it doesn’t hurt but a little, not much. But I’ll look into it [chuckles] or those things I need to do. [Pauses] Yeah.

THERAPIST: You have good insurance. You could look into PT and having them help to strengthen. Maybe your knee is just getting pulled in because there is some muscle here that could be strengthened, that won’t allow you to stabilize it more. [00:04:04]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: There are a lot of I have no idea, but there are a lot of things that could probably be corrected.

CLIENT: OK, thank you. [Chuckles] Yeah. [Pauses] So how often do you run, like every week, three times or…? [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: When I’m pregnant, I swim, too, so I run and swim. But I run a lot and I race a lot. I do a lot of things when I’m not pregnant. [Chuckles]

CLIENT: [Chuckles] [Pauses]

THERAPIST: I enjoy it.

CLIENT: Yeah, it is fun.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And…

THERAPIST: You have to go outside.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Very nice.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pauses for nine seconds] I’ve been taking care of the body has a lot of positive effects on your mind, as well – on your mental health, so… [00:05:04]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I’ve been both down and up for the past few days. I just hurt my back, and that usually gets me really, really depressed because I can’t move. But it is not that bad this time, so I was able to recover much quickly. And recover – by “recover,” I mean mostly just mentally [chuckles] and emotionally. So [pauses] earlier, I would just lie in bed and complain and feel horrible. And, this time, I actually wasn’t – I tried to stay in bed but I cooked and I had – was dancing and – not vigorously but, you know [chuckles], just to not get too depressed. [Pauses] I guess I’m mentioning this just because I’m also observing that – I guess part of becoming better, mentally, is how quick your recovery time is, too. Right? [Chuckles] [00:06:10]

THERAPIST: Hm. So recovery time from…?

CLIENT: Feeling sad and bad and depressed. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So… [Pauses from 00:06:21 to 00:07:00] [00:07:00]

Yeah, I guess relating to the question of one thing [ph], that we were talking about last week, I still have to file my taxes and my mom’s. But I really just kind of view that like a picture of what we did last year, and it was like a whole bunch of knots of the financial decisions. I was talking about them [inaudible at 00:07:33] like, “That is not very wise.” I’m like – and I didn’t really take it very personally because I knew that they weren’t going to be that wise when I was making them, but it was like I was very on the edge or very desperate to make those changes. For example, all of us – we were – me, Chris [ph], and my mom were living in one apartment, and I was doing [ph] a very wise decision, financially [chuckles] but not quite so emotionally or whatever, so… [00:08:09]

[Pauses from 00:08:10 to 00:08:23] Yeah, so moving out and all of us – all three of us getting our space does mean three times the rent. [Pauses] And I was just looking at that. And I asked my mom, when I was feeling bad, “Did I spend so much money on my rent?” And I made very little, and then pretty much 90 percent of it [chuckles] went to rent, either to mine or my mom’s. And then I asked my mom how much she paid for rent, and it was like almost twice as much as how I – what I paid. [00:09:09]

And I don’t know how she got that number. Maybe she added stuff I paid to hers, but I was just like, “Wow.” So it is like, directly, she is paying for my freedom, my dreams and whatnot [chuckles], and that felt – I don’t know about that.

THERAPIST: [Sneezes] Excuse me.

CLIENT: Bless you. So…

THERAPIST: How is she paying for your freedom? I don’t get that.

CLIENT: Um, [pauses] by [pauses] – yeah, she is paying out of pocket, like from her savings so I can live separately.

THERAPIST: Hm. [Pauses] Yeah. [00:10:00]

CLIENT: She and I could live together, and we’d save $500, $600 every month. [Chuckles] So [pauses] – I mean, that – so I was like, “Oh, well, then these are your options. You can do this, you can do this, you can do this and this.” And it was like I can’t [ph] live with my mom, and I’m really happy not [ph] living with her. And what we’ve talked about here, like how, in my narrative, she and I have fused, and I – whatever has happened to her life, in her life, I feel like, has happened to me, whatever we’ve discussed. So I think living separately has helped me to form my own identity and – [chuckles] so that is – but, yeah, I was really, really shocked when she told me how much she paid for rent, and I was upset and all that. [00:11:01]

But [pauses] yeah, I also, I guess, recovered from it quickly, though. [Chuckles] So [pauses] from the time living [ph] – I don’t know. [Pauses] Yeah, so I guess I’m thinking about what to do next year, and everyone’s lease is going to go – end, so what is – what to do after that? And when we refresh [ph] a little [inaudible at 00:11:40] can save money, but I don’t know. Do you think that is a good idea or a [chuckles] bad idea?

THERAPIST: Hm. Only you can make that decision.

CLIENT: Yeah. But, in your opinion…? [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: I don’t know. That is a hard, hard thing. I don’t think it is the decision that you make; it is the – whether you want to or not that is good or bad. [00:12:07]

CLIENT: Yeah. What do you mean?

THERAPIST: The motivations you have for doing it is what the issue is. Whether you do it or not feels less important.

CLIENT: Yeah. So the motivation to save money is – is good or bad, or…?

THERAPIST: Or whatever. Each motivation is separate.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pauses] You mean if I want to live with her – if I move in with her because I want to live with her, that is better than moving in with her to save money?

THERAPIST: I guess that is – that is one way of looking at it, looking at the motivation to your health [ph].

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: Do you think I could – I know what is better for you right now?

CLIENT: No. No, just – whereas, maybe sometimes I might think you might, just because you might have a more objective opinion. [00:13:00]

But, [pauses] yeah, I know that you don’t know everything and you don’t know what I – only I know what I want. [Chuckles] But I guess I’m wondering if you can help me reason or think through things or… [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Yeah. I just don’t know how to go about it. Or maybe I’m still trying to figure out how to go about – like how to incorporate your [pauses] voice? [Chuckles] So [pauses]…

THERAPIST: I kind of see that, that you’re trying to do that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know what – I think what I’ve sort of communicated clearly is that the extent to which you see your mother and you as merged is problematic.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So the extent to which you make a decision based on that, I would think, is problematic versus other things, which I think is less about the decision than it is about why you’re doing it and what you need from it, and what the wishes/fantasies are around it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So I feel that way more than the actual decision. Plus, even if a decision is “objectively good for you,” if it is very painful for you and too hard to tolerate at a given moment, that is not good, either. [Chuckles]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So [pauses] do I think that, at some point, you fear being on your own for some time is a good thing? Actually, I do.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because I think it might be too hard for you to tolerate now, but maybe. So…

CLIENT: Too hard to tolerate living with her?

THERAPIST: No, living on – just being on your own, in general, not feeling like you have to be tied to one man or another man.

CLIENT: [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: I don’t think that is, ultimately, what is good for you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But am I going to tell you to – what to do with each of these men? No, because I think that you’re – that you have needs that you’re meeting right now. [00:14:58]

And so, for me to cut out [ph] a plan, “This is how Cecelia [ph] should live, because this is what is best for her,” A, there is a question of do I really know what is best for you, but, B, it is not where you are right now, either.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, you’re not at a place of thinking like, “I don’t really know what I want from men right now. I need to be without men right now.”

CLIENT: I’m not.

THERAPIST: Well, do you think you are?

CLIENT: No. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Well, there you go! So [chuckles]…

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I’m just making sure we’re on the same page. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Why not? [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Well, we could talk about that, too, if you’d like.

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Yeah.

THERAPIST: It is certainly not how you have – how you think about it.

CLIENT: About what?

THERAPIST: Well, you think you need to have one of these two men, and you don’t choose – you have these two men, and you have to choose between them, and you go back and forth between thinking about one is better than the other.

CLIENT: [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: And that is how you think about it.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pauses] That is true.

THERAPIST: There are times that I have talked to you about a third option, and you kind of look at me as if I have grown an extra head. [00:16:04]

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Yeah, I still look at you like that. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: But [pauses] – well, I hear that as I know – I don’t know. I don’t even have time for two of them. I’m having a hard time juggling two. So I run [ph] and then I won’t have any time to do anything else. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Well, I wasn’t saying a third one.

CLIENT: I know, but that is how I’m thinking, thinking I can’t just stop seeing both of them, like just drop them. So a third person wouldn’t be completely new and just the only one; he would be the third person. [Pauses] [Sighs] But, so I’m not that independent right now, or am on a trajectory to be independent, or is that even – that is not even the trajectory. [00:17:08]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess I – I guess it depends on what you mean by “independent.” How do you mean “independent?”

CLIENT: Well, how you meant it, like what you were saying – living independently and know none of these two men, and – yeah…

THERAPIST: Hm. [Pauses] I see why you’re using the word “independent.”

CLIENT: Yeah?

THERAPIST: But it feels a little bit different – the coloring of what I’m saying feels a little different even though I understand why you’re using that word.

CLIENT: Hm. [Pauses]

THERAPIST: I can’t really articulate it at the moment. I know why you’re saying “independent” versus “dependent.”

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pauses for nine seconds] [00:18:00]

Well, no, just like what you were saying – [pauses] when you were telling me why you can’t tell me what to do, and then you said, “Do I think you should live independently, independent of these two men?” I think you said that. And you said, “No, you’re not there yet,” or, “What is best for you is – how do I know what is best for you?” so in that context. You kind of did this picture of me as this strong, independent woman, and then you said, “You’re not there yet.” So I’m just wondering if that is what you meant or if that is what is good for me. And you’re saying you don’t know what is good for me, but, perhaps, that could be good for me. [00:19:06]

THERAPIST: Well, let me flip it out of ten [ph]. One thing that I think is problematic is that you feel you have to choose between one of these two men.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It is just like this is – these are the only options, somehow, and…

CLIENT: [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: …So that, I think, is problematic in a lot of different ways. And maybe it is just about being independent; I don’t know.

CLIENT: It is tied to being…

THERAPIST: I guess it is. To some extent, it is not like the first thing. I wouldn’t say you do that because you can’t be independent, because, in effect, what does “independent” mean? I don’t know. [Chuckles] It sort of begs the question, “What does that even mean?”

CLIENT: Well, why is it problematic?

THERAPIST: These – why? Because it is so limiting.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because it is not reality. Because there are millions of people out there whom you could – well, millions – I don’t know – several hundred to a thousand of people whom you could maybe partner with at some point. [00:20:06]

So the fact that you feel like it is only these two men out there is problematic because it is actually not true.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It is inaccurate.

CLIENT: [Says faintly] Yeah.

THERAPIST: But it is certainly based on some feeling or some fantasy, maybe – I don’t know. I don’t know. I think it is very complicated.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But – so that is why I think that is problematic.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, I see that you’re questioning my motivations. Yeah. But – yeah…

THERAPIST: And I think each of the relationships have enough difficulties that thinking that you have to choose one of those and that is it is also a problem. There are things that you really don’t like about Nelson [ph] and there are things that you don’t like about Chris [ph].

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:21:00]

THERAPIST: And I’m not saying that neither relationship is good enough but, at the time being, there is enough that you find problematic in them that makes it hard for me to see why – how you’d be just automatically pretty satisfied in them, because you’re not. So…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And, hopefully, you would choose a relationship – long-term relationship, marriage, however you define that – with someone that you, overall, just feel satisfied with.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Sniffles] [Pauses for eight seconds] Yeah, but to be in that position, to choose like that, it feels I have to be someone else that I’m not. You know?

THERAPIST: And who would that someone else be?

CLIENT: That strong, independent woman. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: And what is that strong, independent woman like?

CLIENT: Well, mm-mm, she has back pain. She finds out the exercises she needs to do, like a gym. [00:22:01]

She goes there. She has knee pain; she takes care of that. And she has money problems; she finds a job, and she quits it if something else needs to be taken care of. [Chuckles] And she is just like – she has her shit together. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: She takes care of herself.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pauses] [Sighs] Her mom and [chuckles] – yeah. And she is happy and – yeah, [chuckles] that is all.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: She writes. I’m going to run [ph]. She writes, and makes enough time for writing and then everything else. [Chuckles].

THERAPIST: So then, if we sort of look at it from a different angle, why don’t you do those things for yourself?

CLIENT: I do. I do.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: It is just like the reality is a little different. [00:23:01]

I didn’t include all the other – all the gray bits, like I’m sad when I hurt my back, and I feel pathetic. And I’m really hard and down on myself. And [chuckles] then I don’t recover from it as quickly as I should or could, as a strong woman would. And I cry and I – people are partying in the other room, and I shut myself in the bathroom and turn the tap on, and cry and cry when I realize, “I’m so pathetic. I have no money, and my mom has no money.” And [chuckles] so, [pauses] yeah. And I feel horrible and guilty thinking that I’m at Nelson’s place and everyone is here. [00:24:00]

And I just cooked everyone a very nice meal, and they’re so happy and grateful, and they want me to hang out with them, but I’m shutting myself in the bathroom, thinking of I’m going to him [ph], that he is working right now, that he is all by himself and he is lonely, and that I’ve given him very wrongly perhaps, or maybe there is truth to that, that I’ve given him false hope that [pauses] I want to get back with him [chuckles] when I don’t know if I do. You know? [Pauses] So [exhales] that strong woman can’t happen because this there is a weak one in her place, and it feels really sad, very profoundly sad about certain things. And I don’t want to let go of some of that, because it gives me roundness? [00:25:05]

I don’t know. Like the picture I painted earlier is just too [pauses] [chuckles] – yeah, it is not real, I guess. [Pauses for eight seconds] But then it is not that bad. And this is how I start to recover, is I realize it is actually quite OK and happy being single now. [Chuckles] And he is not profoundly sad like I think he is. And I’ll still see him, and – in a platonic way, and we’ll figure it out and, [chuckles] so… [00:26:00]

[Pauses for 15 seconds] And I just tell myself, “I’m getting there. I’m becoming strong.” [Chuckles] So [pauses for six seconds] I mean, even strong women cry. Right? [Chuckles] So [pauses for 15 seconds] I see what you’re saying, like these two guys aren’t the only two guys and all, but – and I see that my motivations definitely need to be questioned, because it is probably fear of loneliness that is driving me to them, and etcetera, etcetera. But I think there is also love, because, as time goes by, and I’m – days [ph] like ten years have gone by, so there is just not seeing is not an option. [00:27:10]

Sometimes, it is really just doesn’t – yeah. But sometimes the motivation is negative, that, oh, it is fear or guilt, mostly guilt. But when it is not a negative emotion, when the motivation is something positive, then I acknowledge and I act on it, and I observe that interaction as good and healthy, and fruitful to both of us.

THERAPIST: I have no doubt. I don’t feel you’re attached to Chris just for negative reasons or pathologic reasons at all.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think it is extremely complicated.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I see that – what you’re saying, choosing them or choosing between. And I’m trying to get away from that, but I think that’ll take a – a bit of time, like a bit more unraveling as to – I don’t know – what they mean or whatever. [00:28:06]

But it might also just be cultural, maybe? [Chuckles] I don’t know. But…

THERAPIST: What piece do you mean [ph]?

CLIENT: Well, like marriage and choosing them. Right now, choosing – a big motivation to be with Chris is because – or choose him as a marriage partner is because I’ve met his parents, and that – because his parents really expect this of me, and disappointing them – and I’ve already been disappointing them for [chuckles] several years now feels bad. You know? I feel bad about that.

THERAPIST: Well, but that is part of the point, is it is clearly not that that is what is most important to you, because you’d be married already.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So it is that [chuckles] – it is just – it is very complicated.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I’m just saying that I – I acknowledge their wishes. I see them and I want to honor them, but I don’t. [00:29:08]

And – and it doesn’t mean that I don’t feel bad not honoring them; I think about it and I feel guilty. [Chuckles] So it is not like, “I’ll just brush it to the side,” and just actualizing [ph] and say, “Nope, something else is more important to me. My independence is more important to me.” It is, but it comes with grief and doing [ph] this is grief. So [pauses] and I don’t think I want to be that way, but just I feel a little grief [ph]. [Chuckles] I don’t think I want it to be that way. [Pauses] I think, a while ago, we talked about how there has been sadness in my life, and I’ve experienced it, and it is – how do I live with that, how do I [pauses] understand and accept that that is just a part of me that I do have the tendency to go in those deep and sad places. [00:30:13]

For whatever reason, for creativity or just that I have that – what do you call it? – dharma [ph], dark side. But I have that gravity. I don’t know if that sounds too lofty, but…

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: So – and it is painful, and it is an acquired taste or whatever. [Chuckles] But it is a part of me, so I have to acknowledge it and make an allowance for it. It could mean not being chirpy all the time or needing some alone time to take care of that, to nourish that [pauses] sadness. I really don’t ever think I can cut it out, and I don’t think that is wrong of me, and I need that fixed. You know? [00:31:04]

[Pauses for 15 seconds] And, also, with Nelson or whatever, I feel like [pauses] the motivation is – I’ll sit here [ph] and analyze the motivations for seeing him. It is kind of like less so now, in the sense that, earlier, it was just like – I was thinking, “Oh, I should break it off with him,” and then I was like, “That is impossible. Who am I going to drink with and, like, the weekends?” [Chuckles] But, now, I feel like I don’t have so much need for that. I don’t know. It is weird. [00:31:55]

Last weekend, I went to Ohio, to see him and, soon after, I just came [chuckles] and saw Chris, and he hurt his back, so I was kind of helping him. [Pauses] And I didn’t want to see Nelson, but he came back early this past week. And then, [chuckles] slowly, I got over my anger and [pauses] – yeah, I saw him, but [pauses for nine seconds] it is weird. [Chuckles] I don’t know. I feel like he is really supportive or can be very, really supportive [pauses] in a weird way, like… [Chuckles] [00:32:59]

So I really tried to break up with him this weekend. I was like, “I don’t know.” I guess I was thinking about next year and that and Chris had said, “You don’t have to find a job.” Because the past month, I’ve just been looking for jobs and being turned down. And we spoke about that last week [chuckles] my sense of feeling entitled about – for certain – for some of these jobs. And, [pauses] yeah, so I was like, “I’m not having my success.” And he was like, “Just move back in here and then you won’t have to worry about rent, and you can help your mom. Then you can make it [ph] and can help your mom with that,” or, “I can help your mom with the rent, too.” I was just like, “You’re so kind,” and, “Yeah, maybe I should do that.” And, OK, so around – my lease ends in August. I was telling myself, “I have until August with Nelson.” [Chuckles] [00:34:00]

But – so I was trying to…

THERAPIST: [inaudible at 00:34:01]

CLIENT: What? [Chuckles] [Pauses] Yeah, so I was trying to somehow say something that – no – but it didn’t really [chuckles] work. What all do I say? [Pauses] But, first, I said, “If several of the jobs are not successful, and I’m thinking if I don’t succeed as a writer, my fallback option is that I’m going to be a housewife.” I want to have children and this and that, and we talked about children for a bit. And he was like – he is getting very, very [chuckles] supportive, and he started crying or something, too. And he was like – so, I guess, for some – or I bet he was thinking that he – that I wanted to marry him, but then I – and I was like, “No, you’re not right for me. You’re very different, and values are different.” [00:35:08]

And then he was crying and he was like, “I want to keep seeing you, but if you don’t think this can work, I understand.” And [chuckles] [pauses] I don’t know. He – he thinks of the relationship in a very different way. And I keep – and then I was also joking with him, like, “Oh, no, we’re just having a weekend affair.” Then he was like, “I don’t think of this as just a weekend affair.” [Chuckles] And I was just thinking to myself, “But, during the week, you don’t even think of me,” or, “You maybe send one silly text, one day once during the week.” [Pauses] [00:36:00]

Yeah, his thinking on the relationship is that he feels great [pauses] and he doesn’t think – and no one else has loved him like me, and I’m very sweet and considerate and all that. So I don’t know. I’m not trying to find fault with that; I’m just – I’m actually admiring [ph] that he – it might sound self-centered, but it is a – that is his perspective. He is very solidly grounded in himself, his needs, and his world, and so he is thinking, “This relationship brings me a lot of happiness.” And then he says that he has never been happier, and this and that. But it doesn’t mean that he is obsessed or he’d let go of everything else about him and his life to think of me or be with me. [00:37:02]

So [pauses] – but I actually respect that. It is quite healthy and a strong individual. [Chuckles] It is – yeah. [Pauses] And then I told him, “Yeah, well, my ex-boyfriend said that I should move in with him so that I don’t have to worry about rent,” and he was like, “Well, here is a counter-offer.” [Chuckles] And I was like, “This is the only way that I can get him to make these offers.” And he is like, “Move in with me, but pay me rent.” [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: So you’re leveraging.

CLIENT: I – it sounds like that, but I wasn’t, actually. I don’t want to move in with him. [Chuckles] I don’t actually want to move in with Chris, either. Although, I want to move in with Chris more than I want to move in with Nelson. But I actually just want to find my own place [chuckles] and be that strong, independent woman that we talked about earlier. [Chuckles] [00:38:06]

So – [pauses for 23 seconds] yeah, I don’t even think about, oh, Chris is more supportive or he loves me more or cares about me more because he is letting me live with him for free, whereas Nelson is, “No, just [ph] be independent,” and he is saying, “Oh, yeah, financial independence is necessary for women,” and lah-lah-lah. [00:38:59]

I’m hearing both of those things and I’m not evaluating these guys on the basis of who cares about me more; I feel like that is not the point. The point is what I want and how it makes me feel, and I feel like I want my own space, [Chuckles] and I don’t want to depend on either of them. But can I really make that happen?

THERAPIST: Why couldn’t you?

CLIENT: No! I’m just saying logistically, like…

THERAPIST: That is what I mean. Why couldn’t you?

CLIENT: No, no, I can; it is just [pauses] looking for the job and do I really want to do it at this point when I’m wanting to move full speed ahead with the novel, and I – so – but also and not put my mom out on the street. [Chuckles] You know? So...

THERAPIST: Because your mother isn’t a strong, independent woman? [00:40:00]

CLIENT: No, no. She is. She is. She is actually the most strong, independent woman.

THERAPIST: Then how do you put her…?

CLIENT: No. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: How do you put a strong, independent woman on the street?

CLIENT: No, I didn’t mean it that way. She is looking at cheaper housing, like through Providence Housing. They let you [pauses] – to find – they have apartments that kind of take your income into consideration.

THERAPIST: Income, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. But she went and saw one of those places, and she wasn’t very – she wasn’t upset or anything; she was just telling me that, “I have to share the bathroom with five people and the kitchen with five people, which is OK.” But I was like, “No, Mom, [chuckles] you’re – you want your own kitchen.” That is – that is where she gets her strength from, like…

THERAPIST: But why did you say “putting [your] mom on the streets?”

CLIENT: [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: How can you put your mom on the street? [00:41:01]

CLIENT: By not thinking about her, by going ahead with my own plans and dreams and…

THERAPIST: But why does – is she helpless to prevent that?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: If you could put her on the street, that means that she is helpless to prevent it. You have the power.

CLIENT: I know. I should – I really have to stop saying that. I really should acknowledge that she [pauses] is actually very strong. And she is much stronger than I think, and I don’t give her enough credit, actually, for all the things that she has accomplished on her own. I really think I…

THERAPIST: I’m sure she has said it of you, too.

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Well, I wish [ph] I had a daughter who would say that about me. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Well, you have a therapist who says that about you.

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Thank you.

THERAPIST: And maybe you will have yourself to say it about you, too.

CLIENT: Yeah, that would be the ultimate goal. [Chuckles] [00:42:01]

THERAPIST: We’re going to stop in a moment.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: Speaking of money, which I know is a hot topic for you, do you have the co-pay for February? Did Penelope [ph] send you…?

CLIENT: I didn’t pay for February?

THERAPIST: Well, maybe you did. I thought she sent me – maybe – did you just pay me for January and February, and then you just got March?

CLIENT: Yeah, I – she sent me a statement. I think it had two months on it, or it looked like it did. But…

THERAPIST: Did you think you paid for the February co…?

CLIENT: I’ll see. I don’t know right now.

THERAPIST: I thought you had paid for December or – in January co-pay and not – because, usually, when they’re over a month due, then I’ll take a – but you take a look, too. If that is an error, please let me know.

CLIENT: OK, yeah. It’ll be in my checkbook.

THERAPIST: OK, very good. So just find that. And, also, so, in turn, to that Monday time in two weeks, do you – Thursday morning is a time that you can sometimes do. Right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Do you want to try to find a time Thursday, in that morning on Thursday? [00:43:00]

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: [Pauses] That is the week of the twenty-first. I’m pretty sure I’ll have a 10:15 time on Thursday. Is that a possibility, on the twenty-fourth instead of the twenty-first?

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pauses] Yeah, sure.

THERAPIST: OK, I’ll – I’ll confirm that.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: I’ll tentatively put that in and then confirm that with you.

CLIENT: No problem. If I don’t have interviews [chuckles] or something like that going on.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: Very good. OK, very good. So I’ll see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: On Wednesday.

THERAPIST: OK. Take care.

CLIENT: Have a good day.

THERAPIST: Bye-bye.

CLIENT: Bye.

[Door closes]

END TRANSCRIPT