TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(Long pause before conversation starts)

[0:03:11]

CLIENT: I can’t really remember our conversation from last week.

[0:04:05]

CLIENT: I’m feeling really hot. Sorry. Did we talk about time management or money? I can’t remember. I think it’s was time management because you were asking why I was canceling therapy.

THERAPIST: Yea, that was one of the things we talked about. Are you feeling frazzled today?

CLIENT: No, there’s just a lot of things on my mind. I guess one major thing is Chris’s Dad is in ICU, and we had some hard trouble, and they’re doing tests and stuff, and he has to get a bypass surgery, so I’m kind of upset about that. We found out over the weekend that he’s going to go and visit and he’s thinking about how much will it cost because we don’t have insurance and it can be up to $16,000. He doesn’t have that much money, so I’m thinking about helping out. It’s funny because he’s been helping me out. He’s going to like pay for the program that I’m going to do for my book. He’s going to help me pay (laugh) for that and obviously now I don’t think I will as him for that. Yea, like, when he found out his father’s in the ICU at the time we felt a bit guilty. Because we spoke, his father and I spoke like last week. I mean just like congratulating or saying something. That was it but we found out he’s sick and I just kind of felt really guilty. I remembered his and my conversation from two years ago when he was ‘you know we want you guys to get married’ and ‘ you should understand our position’. And I felt very like. I don’t know. He was putting this expectation on me. I was, like, how do I do this? So, I feel kind of guilty. Because we didn’t know. We just heard that he’s in ICU. We didn’t know for what. So I was thinking, Oh no. Over the last year I’ve been feeling kind of guilty.

[0:07:33]

CLIENT: I think I’ve mentioned to you that I’ve had some dreams or like Chris’s parents and (inaudible) and they’re friends.

THERAPIST: Talk about these.

CLIENT: Their neighbors and their need and then they are like ‘oh, my son’s girlfriend’ and then ‘oh, my son’s girlfriend’. And then I walk in and I’m like majorly embarrassed, horrified and feeling frustrated.

[0:08:17]

CLIENT: I’m feeling all burdened with that. And that feeling passed, cause then I somehow rationalize what I’m doing with these two guys and how or to the extent of; I feel like I’ve told them the truth, to the extent which I can tell, you know. And I was telling Nelson it was a weird weird weekend, like, he was in town with one of his buddies from Ohio and this kind and like, and all he did was party. So like Saturday night, I was comforting him because he was going to call his mom and there is so much there. So his uncle called him to let him know his dad was in ICU. His mom hadn’t called him and he was like ‘I have to call her’; I know her pretty well and she is not very good at dealing with emotions at all. She’s worse than Chris. At her own mom’s funeral, she kind of stood awkwardly and ‘thank you for coming’ and then sat down. Whereas her brother was like this really really tough guy, an activist. He was like in tears. He was crying. I’m like ‘what’s wrong?’ I had to talk to her for an hour to convince her to come. She was in a different city. She wasn’t even going to come. I was like ‘oh, no, you have to come.’

[0:10:18]

CLIENT: So he talked to his mom when I was there. I was supposed to have dinner and drinks with Nelson and his friends. He’s texting me ‘where are you, where are you, I’m so disappointed’ and this and that. I was like ‘with friends.’ (inaudible) And they were like ‘okay, we’re going to go over to this place, if you don’t come in fifteen more minutes then you can just, you know, come there when your over’ and I’m like ‘what!’ Anyway, so it was just weird like, right because he’s thinking of partying because I’m thinking that’s what he does and then Chris is all like sad and he needs my help. We have a serious relationship, so that was like the stereotypes I have of them in my head kind of playing out. I don’t know. I think I’m just babbling.

[0:11:19]

CLIENT: I felt really horrible leaving him. I felt really that my duty was to stay over and comfort him. I also felt obligated to Nelson and so I did the best I could. I stayed with him for a few hours and comforted him and then I left. Literally I am pulled in two very different directions. Chris’s parents just make me so nervous and worried about money. So nervous. (laughs) I’m like going along making bad decisions, well not bad decisions, but doing what I want to do and, yea, spending $4,000 on this course that I may not even need. Because I want to do it, and then along comes heart attach or heart trouble (laughs) and the fact that they haven’t been investing wisely and they don’t have that much money and they need help. It’s fine for me help them. I feel like I should think of it as a choice rather than an obligation and that’s something I need to work on but the other side, the undercurrent is like pretty on top, is that me feeling guilty about doing what I’m doing. Like all that, what do you call that, like his mom’s kind of statements and ways of thinking kind of come into play a lot and make me feel nervous about doing what I’m doing.

[0:13:27]

CLIENT: In the past, but this is ten years ago right. I made a U-turn of what I was going to do, a completely changed course. Just because of the things she said. She said writing is a luxury and this and that, and now they are in the same kind of situation I feel financially. That their business has completely failed and major losses and turning down their business. His dad is like ‘what?’ Chris was starting a second (inaudible). So his dad just decided to go back to work, luckily he found work at his age. But I want to feel that it is not the same, that it’s different. Their situation won’t affect me, but it is making me nervous.

THERAPIST: Nervous about . . .

CLIENT: Money.

[0:14:31]

THERAPIST: That you would be afraid to end up like them?

CLIENT: No, no, just like right now.

THERAPIST: That you want to get some money?

CLIENT: No, I guess maybe the former. But not so intense. So I mean every time I visit them I feel completely like I need my own career, a job, money. I’m just going to look even more desperately for a job and I don’t have the time, I have a deadline for finishing another whole job in a month. So I don’t have time. I can’t waste time any more. What am I saying?

THERAPIST: I’m not sure.

[0:15:22]

CLIENT: No, your question was why am I nervous.

THERAPIST: Yea, you said ‘it makes me nervous about money’ so I’m just wondering what the ‘it’ is. Whether it was seeing them, whether it was the immediate demand of feeling like you should give them money.

CLIENT: Yea, so every time I help someone with money or I see someone not doing fine financially well, I want to make sure I have money, or I have a job.

[0:15:52]

THERAPIST: So it makes you feel anxious about your own security.

CLIENT: Yea. I woke up last night, I couldn’t sleep. I was thinking ‘what am I doing about . . . ‘ So there are a few pressing things. I won’t have an income any more in the summer and then you know housing for next year. So I’m thinking I’ll just move in with my mom. (inaudible) and then I can’t sleep wherever, and work forever. I feel I can work from different locations.

(Pause)

CLIENT: I feel like my situation is getting precarious but then is it precarious or is it me just feeling like it is precarious, you know?

(Pause)

CLIENT: And here I haven’t been hearing back. I’ve applied to a lot of places. I guess I have to look more aggressively or more strategically or both. I mean, I don’t know. Maybe the situation is a good reality check. But it kind of, it feels like it can be a bit more than that. It could be, not just a reality check but like a shock or something that makes me give up my own kind of plans and stuff.

(Pause)

CLIENT: What do you think about what his dad said to me? And how I should think about it. Like I feel kind of guilty.

[0:18:21]

THERAPIST: What do I think about what his dad said?

CLIENT: Yea, about like marrying Chris.

THERAPIST: Do I think you should marry Chris?

CLIENT: No I mean where was that coming from? And from him, and how should it affect me in the sense that . .(laughs) . I mean like it is a bit complicated in my case because I really didn’t have a father who cared, so why I like that his father seems to care and you know can help me out and has (inaudible) and I don’t know exactly what I would like. I guess when I go to India he would give me a SIM (?) card or something.

[0:19:29]

THERAPIST: What is that?

CLIENT: For the phone. So you can use your phone. Yea, they both will let me stay at their place. But like it is their expectation that they have a standing in the community and they are all kind of conservative and they’ve told people that I am going to marry their son and I don’t know, I’m just like so far away from that. I try to talk to his mom. Like ‘you don’t understand Emmet and I don’t have that kind of relationship, you know what I’m talking about, right?’ And she’s like ‘shut up and just get married. That will solve everything.’ And every time I go I have this intense moment where I really just want to jump off the balcony because they get to me so much. It happens every time. Cause he doesn’t even understand. ‘Your mom is such a bully.’ It doesn’t help that I try and empathize. While I am sitting here, miles away, I sympathize, you know. I see her like with Chris actually there, it just really gets to me the fact that I can’t really cook in her kitchen. Yea, that’s the conversation I’m trying to tell her that ‘you know your son and I blah blah blah’ and she’s just like ‘oh just married.’

[0:21:14]

CLIENT: And me taking things too personally when I shouldn’t, with them praising their son to the sky. And saying ‘you and I, we’re just like ordinary people but like our son he’s like extraordinary.’ And I’m like ‘yay, great.’ I don’t want to be with an extraordinary person. I want to be with someone really ordinary.

(Pause)

CLIENT: I feel kind of burdened by their expectation I guess.

(Pause)

[0:22:10]

THERAPIST: That’s one of the problems with looking toward others for direction is that they may have a very different agenda than you.

CLIENT: Yea. What do you mean?

THERAPIST: That’s what I mean. Their agenda is to have their son married.

CLIENT: Why am I looking to them for direction?

THERAPIST: That’s a good question.

CLIENT: No, am I?

THERAPIST: You said that his father said that maybe I should listen to him.

CLIENT: I said that?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: I didn’t say I should listen to him.

THERAPIST: Well you were wondering what I thought about what his father said.

CLIENT: Oh, yea.

THERAPIST: Clearly you are thinking about whether it should influence what you decide? I guess that’s what I heard.

CLIENT: Well it’s nice to know that they like me and they care about me.

[0:23:08]

THERAPIST: It’s not only that they want their son to get married, they think of you as a good prospective wife.

CLIENT: Yea. I mean, thank you I’m flattered. You know what I’m saying? But, I feel like my freedom is really a gigantic price to pay for that compliment. Maybe I shouldn’t think in terms of transaction. I’m not saying ‘I’d rather you guys hate me.’ Of course not. But, you know. (laughs)

THERAPIST: But it sounds like from that way of thinking that you think they want to purchase you.

CLIENT: No. I feel like we could open up another frontier of dialog. I just have to be strong. Maybe Chris is not strong but I could be strong. He cannot talk to his mom and clearly I tried and it’s like talking to a wall. But still I can try because things are changing. People don’t necessarily get married. It doesn’t mean that they don’t care as much or love each other less.

[0:25:09]

CLIENT: I feel like at the least she should understand that she went through the exact same thing that I am going through as a woman. Trying to build a life of your own. Trying to be independent. Trying not to look to your male counterpart for money and fulfillment. Which is what she did and she regrets it every single day of her life. So she should recognize that that’s what I’m trying to do too. Because I really was at that point where I would look a lot to Chris for fulfillment. As usual for me with everything, I am not the other side now. I don’t look to him for anything. Well, I do, but I’m trying not to. So I’m trying to build a life and she should at least see that and understand that.

THERAPIST: That’s what I was thinking. I was thinking that it seems like you were looking towards these people for not only Chris’s parents for, not only encouragement for the choices you are making. It kind of reminds me what we were talking about, about looking for a parent. Whereas they have their own agenda. They have their own needs. They are not really interested in their agenda.

[0:26:31]

CLIENT: Shouldn’t they be? They have known me for ten years.

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Why not?

THERAPIST: They have their own selfish needs they are acting out of.

CLIENT: It feels weird.

THERAPIST: You feel uncared about?

CLIENT: With respect to them or just generally?

THERAPIST: Well, with respect to them, but I think when other people have their own agendas you feel like well they should really be thinking about you. That would be nice, I’m not saying it wouldn’t be.

CLIENT: It wouldn’t be?

THERAPIST: I’m not saying it wouldn’t be but there is a way in which you are looking for this nurturing from people who have their own agendas.

[0:27:15]

CLIENT: Yea, I don’t like that. I don’t think they should have their own agenda. I mean, do I have my own agenda?

THERAPIST: Sure you do. You’re not saying ‘I’m going to marry Chris. I know it’s really important to you guys.’ You have your own agenda.

CLIENT: But I am willing to help them.

THERAPIST: They’d rather that you married Chris. You’ve helped them out financially.

CLIENT: No, really? When someone’s life is at stake, that’s what they’re going to say? (Laughs.) (Pause.) I don’t know about that. What is the lesson that I’m supposed to learn here? That people have their own agendas? And I should do what with that?

[0:28:21]

THERAPIST: Well you get very disappointed when people aren’t really advancing what it is that you need, and yet encouraging it.

CLIENT: They’re not?

THERAPIST: What’s happening here? I don’t get what’s happening.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: You’re saying ‘they’re not?’

CLIENT: No, I didn’t hear you.

THERAPIST: Well, I was saying that you get upset. Just what I was saying before. That they’re not advancing your agenda.

CLIENT: Yea, I see.

THERAPIST: And part of it is because you feel guilty. You want their encouragement and support and yet you feel guilty that you are not sort of complying with other people’s needs.

CLIENT: Yea, I feel that when they were encouraging me last week, I felt like this is really cheating, in the sense that I don’t deserve this. And if you knew what I was doing, you know, you would not say any of these words. You would take them back. You would hurl curses at me or something.

[0:29:48]

(Pause)

CLIENT: I really thought, you know, think situations like these make things seem really queer in some ways. I don’t know. Like, almost needing (inaudible). (Laughs.) It’s funny, like that thing is the thing that would make me feel attractive towards him in the first place but now, that night, it felt like a burden. And like, I hurt my finger really badly that night as well. It was so painful. Then the next morning I had to keep it elevated so I was walking around like this. Nelson was laughing so hard, I even peed a little bit. He was like spitting he was laughing so hard. I felt kind of like ‘ yea I’ve got you now, you’re a horrible person, you don’t care about me.

THERAPIST: What do you think that was about?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: ‘I’ve got you now, you’re a horrible person, you don’t care about me.’

CLIENT: No it’s just me trying to break up with him like because this situation is supposed to indicate that I can connect with Chris on various registers, on many more registers than I would. But Nelson so like ‘okay it’s time’. I have to think about what I need. I can live with Chris but that’s you know, say financially it makes much more sense for him and me. So, I should do that. (inaudible) We talked and we talked and I feel like he’s manipulating me, he’s just really good at presenting counter arguments and stuff. I don’t know. He acts silly a lot but when he actually speaks, it’s like okay there is a head there. It does think. (Laughs) He’s talking there’s a general sense in which people care about each other and then there’s a specific instances then and just because in certain specific instances things don’t work out, it will seem the other person cares. It doesn’t mean that generally they don’t care. I don’t know, I kept thinking about that so I forgot that I was mad at him and wanted to break up. This happens that quite a log.

THERAPIST: I was going to ask you, I don’t know if this is tangent or not, but when you started you were talking about ‘well, what were we talking about last week. I don’t remember.’ And then you had this whole thing happen that took you a few minutes to talk about in terms of Chris’s dad being in the ICU. What makes you not start with that. You know what I mean? This is something that is really important and on your mind.

CLIENT: I need an ice-breaker.

[0:33:45]

THERAPIST: Can you say something about that?

CLIENT: I just feel it’s like a blank slate. You need kind of a warm up exercise.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like you lose our connection, a feeling of our connection in between sessions and so it doesn’t feel like ‘oh my gosh let me tell you what happened’ like you can’t do that.

CLIENT: I can’t do that with anyone. I really don’t think I can do that Nelson, Chris, even my mom. Even with my mom. Some people are better or really good at warming me up so I don’t even notice, but yea.

THERAPIST: The way you put it ‘warming you up’, that’s interesting. That’s an interesting way to phrase it.

CLIENT: Yea, an incorrect usage but yea I feel disconnected if I have to start the conversation then yea. If I were teaching a class then I would be more systematic about it because the onus would be on me and I would do a good job. Here I feel like I don’t know what the structure is. I’m sure you’ll say that you’re supposed to know by now but . . .

THERAPIST: I don’t think it’s a matter of knowing though, it’s a matter of how you feel.

[0:33:45]

THERAPIST: Like my presence, or my looking toward you is an implicit invitation to tell me anything really, but certainly something that’s on mind that’s bothering you, for sure.

CLIENT: I guess I feel shy about talking about myself even though I do it twice every week, it still feels like, yea . . .

THERAPIST: Because it seems like in sort of asking about what we talked about the last session, you are looking for some thread to pick up on, or some connection in terms of content in a sense.

CLIENT: Or continuity.

(Pause)

THERAPIST: It seems to ebb and flow a bit, because I know there was certainly a period where you would start and say ‘I thought a lot about what we said last time’. And it felt like you felt some more sense of continuity there, a connection. And it feels like that’s not been as true the last few months, where it seems like you’re searching a little bit where to start.

CLIENT: Yea, I guess so, I don’t know. Maybe I have been frazzled. I wonder if it’s got something to do with where I wake up or which place I’m in. I don’t know. That’s pretty bad.

(Pause)

THERAPIST: So in that sense, sort of, I don’t know, questioning your attachments. Like dating Nelson, moving out of Chris’s house, like that has made you more insecure about all of your connections. I don’t know.

[0:37:49]

CLIENT: All of my connections?

THERAPIST: Meaning that that process that you’re going through that maybe it’s impacted all of your connections, like in here too. I don’t know. My first thought was whether my being away for a period of time was making you feel that way. You know, my anticipated being away for five or six weeks.

CLIENT: I anticipate it, I do, but not this. There’s a lot of things that I just don’t think about. That I should think about that I just don’t. I guess I’ll be nervous the week before.

THERAPIST: Well maybe we should anticipate it together now so it feels less scary or whatever when it comes.

CLIENT: There’s so many things we’re scared about.

THERAPIST: Well, that only speaks just getting to work around them versus trying to just not think about them.

[0:39:02]

CLIENT: Yea, I guess like moving out of Chris’s apartment, is it like having a negative effect?

THERAPIST: Clearly there’s positive. I don’t think about it as negative as much as its made you anxious to question your attachment to him. Question the longevity of your relationship. It’s made you anxious.

CLIENT: Yea. What does that mean?

THERAPIST: I don’t know, but the reason I sort of avoided the negative, your comment about the negative, because you very quickly want to put value judgment and make a decision based on ‘oh that was bad so maybe I should undo what I did to make it good again’ so that’s why negative. I guess you could say anxiety is negative. But I’m not sure I would want to make that leap.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: It’s made you anxious. It’s also made you feel good in many ways. Being attached to him and feeling like to you needed to hold on to that in the way that you were also made you feel anxious.

CLIENT: (inaudible) to be anxious.

[0:40:17]

THERAPIST: I don’t know about that. There are a lot of things that cause you anxiety and we’re trying to talk about them together.

CLIENT: I don’t know. I feel like, obviously when I moved out it felt that I was riding a high wave of some sort.

(Pause)

CLIENT: I don’t know. I feel like my own place would be the answer to everything, but . . . That’s the point. How do I get it? I could get a job first and that’s like, I’m not very successful in finding one.

(Pause)

CLIENT: It’s not just the fact that I’m not with him and obviously that’s why that’s some kind of stability. And having three or four places does make me a little crazy. I’m not able to do a lot of things that I used to be able to do when I was running from one place to the other.

THERAPIST: Like what? What aren’t you able to do?

CLIENT: Just like, I’ve been far less productive. I’ve had to prioritize and I only get done two or three things. I don’t get my homework done in time at all. I used to be a part of this woman’s group and I haven’t gone to their meetings. I haven’t been as political. I haven’t worked on the magazine. Yea, like a lot of things that are not happening. Like I’m in triage war or something. I just kind of think of writing and do it when I get time. And then I scramble together my homework and go to school and that just either visit Chris or Nelson or my mom. (inaudible)

[0:43:26]

CLIENT: I need to be a bit more strategic I guess. (Pause) I mean, I feel like I wouldn’t be that way if I was just at my place and just visited my mom and that’s it. I feel like these two guys, I think of them as obligations for different reasons. Are we out of time?

THERAPIST: Yea. We should continue to talk about this. So I’ll see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Have a good day.

THERAPIST: Thank you very much. Take care.

CLIENT: (inaudible)

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

END TRANSCRIPT