TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I don’t feel like talking.

THERAPIST: No?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Are you upset?

CLIENT: No, I just want…have like so much to do. I feel like I just want to get to work. [Laughs.] [Pause.]

[00:04:13]

THERAPIST: Are you on strike?

CLIENT: [Laughs.] No. Like, trying to think of something to talk about. It’s like no…[pause.]. Had such a hard time getting up this morning. It’s been like really sleepy and fatigued. I don’t know. Not because of any physical exertion. Just like, I think mental. And not even…I’m not even working. I’m just kind of like scared. I just want to sleep the whole time. I had hopes to work yesterday, like in the evening, but just like couldn’t…just like all these people make demands on my time and I feel like so burdened.

Like I sent like…this is funny, weird, but on Monday, like I just spent the whole time planning; planning my next month because I have a big deadline and yeah. [Pause.] And I sent…my mom an e-mail saying, “I have a big deadline, so I’m not going to be able to be there for you guys as much. I will ignore the following things, and I made a list. And I put down lunch, lunch with mom. It was funny to send, you know, your mom an e-mail that is like, oh you know, maybe that’s what planning looks like. [Laughs.]. I don’t think it got through to her because yesterday she called me for lunch and I was in a meeting with my boss at school and I called her back and like, “I’m at school.” She’s like, “Okay, then maybe dinner?” So she’s like, and then she brought the dinner over, which is nice. I guess I shouldn’t complain about it, but it’s like it takes away time.

[00:09:11]

And then my friend from school called and like she can chat for hours and we chatted for over an hour and finally I had to say, “Okay, I have to get back to work. I’m failing this other class.” I just cannot like say no to people or like make time for myself. I don’t know; maybe I can. I’m just like…[inaudible – 09:40]. Just feeling burdened like all the things that need to get done and like responsibilities. Sure enough, she’s going to call today as well. Let’s have lunch. I’m so annoyed by it. [Laughs.] [Pause.]

Sometimes I do feel like I’m too nice. You know like I just do want to rebel and say I’m not doing anything. I mean for others. Like one time a couple of weeks ago, my sorors roommate was like let’s make a big dinner. I wasn’t able to say no. So, they kept making plans for it asking me what should I get, what should I get? And it was mostly his friends. And then I told soror, who was like, “Oh, why are you doing this? Just say no. Just say you can’t do 10 people. It’s crazy.” But I just couldn’t. So. Yeah, so I just like got there and he brought all the stuff and he was like, “Oh teach me.” I’m like I can’t do everything, you know. So I just told him to step aside and then I cooked like four or five different things. And everyone loved the food and all, but like I was just like [Laughs.] I felt great that, yeah, I accomplished something. People love my food. They’re all so appreciative. But then I’m like I don’t know. Why do I do that? Why would I do that? I don’t know. [Pause.]

[00:13:38]

I do sometimes just want to like sometimes not go to class, and I am I am like…I missed three classes. And I’m not going to go today, so I’m missing…I’ve missed four classes. And that teacher is like, she e-mailed me and said, “What’s up?” And then I realized the syllabus says if you miss three classes you fail the course. And she’s like I’m not going to fail you, but your grade is going to be affected. So I’m like I guess so. I don’t know.

I do feel like striking and not doing anything for anyone. I guess maybe why do I think I’m doing things for them? I could think all the things I’m doing for me, like, you know, going to class is for me. It’s not for the teacher. I could think that way. Maybe that would make me take more ownership of it and feel less burdened about it.

THERAPIST: Maybe.

CLIENT: How do you do that, though? How does, when it’s changing perspective completely, but how does it work? Like my mom calls me right now about lunch. How is it not a burden? How do I think it’s really about it? How is it like for my benefit? You know, it’s like her expectation instead of, “Hey, would you like free lunch?” It doesn’t sound a nice little lunch. It sounds like medicine or a sentence; an obligation. As it does to class, as it does I do a lot of things. [Pause.]

[00:16:22]

It’s not like I’m doing a bad job planning. I don’t know. Maybe that was it. I was like if I feel like, oh, like there’s so much work to be done. It shouldn’t feel like that because I should be able to plan. So why does it seem like a burden, you know. I don’t understand that. [Pause.]

And I feel like that’s the answer even to like questions from last week. That oh, you know, I’m all frazzled because of hopping from place to place. Perhaps, you know, maybe instead of paying attention to the thing at hand, I’m thinking, oh, where am I going to go [inaudible – 19:18]. Maybe. But think like if I think about things as they’re my choice or I’m doing all these things for me, then maybe, you know, I wouldn’t seem as frazzled. It wouldn’t matter, like where I go. Maybe it’s just wishful thinking, but…

I feel like earlier, like things have worked, even if I spend the night elsewhere rather than at my own place. Like the next morning, I’m just like I’m in a…yeah, I just want to go to my place and like work. Yeah, so.

[00:20:15]

It’s just like so I’m feeling motivated and driven or not. I think. If I feel that way then things don’t obviously get to me and they don’t seem like such a burden. I’m like, yeah. And I don’t feel frazzled as much. So…[Pause.]

THERAPIST: Where are you right now?

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: Where are you right now?

[00:22:28]

CLIENT: Well I’m talking. Like…

THERAPIST: You are.

CLIENT: There is a thread. [Laughs.] No.

THERAPIST: You seem distracted.

CLIENT: Well I’m thinking. I’m not like thinking about this thread and how to connect everything through it. So. [Pause.]

THERAPIST: It’s like you feel everyone wants a piece of me.

CLIENT: Well I wish that would make me feel flattered. [Laughs.] [Pause.]

THERAPIST: It would only make you feel flattered if you felt they were interested in you vs. what they need from you.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pause.] Yeah, I don’t understand. What is the…I mean it sounds like a subtle difference. But what is the difference?

THERAPIST: Well, the first is valuing you, for you and who you are vs. what you can do for them. Function, you said.

CLIENT: I mean, I guess, for my mom, I’m like the child or someone she can share her meal with. So I feel like bad, I guess. But with my friend, I was like, I really didn’t want to talk, but I felt obligated to talk, you know, even though she did seem interested and like, yeah, you’re a good writer. Yeah, you look good in that skirt, you know. Yeah, you should do this or you should do that. And she said all of these things to me, like it wasn’t like she just kept talking about herself. But it was just like you know, like I was working on my homework and she called and I shouldn’t have spoken to her right then, but I couldn’t not pick her phone. So.

THERAPIST: Why couldn’t you not?

[00:24:47]

CLIENT: I don’t know like. So she’d call like Friday night or like text and I just walked in to a bar with my friends so I couldn’t talk to her then. And then I called her over the weekend, and she wasn’t there. We just kept missing each other, but I felt like I should talk with her.

Yeah, I just feel like obligated instead of like it’s mutual and I get something out of it or it’s nice to talk to friends, you know. I used to think, oh I don’t ever talk to anyone on the phone and you know, maybe the conversation lasts five minutes and it’s all about logistics. And here I have someone to talk to for hours that’s really…and then I’m still like why do I have to do this?

THERAPIST: But you feel like you don’t have a choice. Like you feel like if you want to pick up, because she’s been trying to reach you. You don’t feel like you can say I would love to talk, but now is not a good time. Maybe we can find a time over the next week. You don’t feel you can do that. And then you feel like somehow she’s put you in this position that you can’t say no.

[00:26:02]

CLIENT: Yeah, it feels that way. But I don’t know how to get out of that. I don’t know how to say those words. Hey, I can’t talk right now. I mean I feel like I have said them. I mean I guess it’s easier to text those words than to say them.

THERAPIST: What is it about saying them?

CLIENT: I don’t know. I never felt it. It doesn’t feel right.

THERAPIST: What does it feel like?

CLIENT: You know. Like mean or something selfish. Self-important, which I sometimes don’t feel like it’s earned because I feel, I don’t know, bloated or fat or like stupid or subordinate. You know. [Pause.]

Yeah, I guess when I feel kind of low and slipping through the snow with [inaudible – 27:32], you know, it’s you know, without choice and burdened. But then when I feel kind of okay and I feel kind of good, and not fat or not bloated or like not…I feel active instead of passive. I am able to say those words. I have said them. At least to my mom I’ve said them, you know, like yeah. I’m really busy. I don’t think I can come and have lunch with you. You know. I say those words. Or I say, you know, you come over. I do say them. And I do not pick up sometimes when I’m going somewhere on Monday and my friend is calling me and I was talking to him on the phone. I don’t take her call. I don’t call her back because it was my time and I said after, and protected, and…

[00:28:42]

But other times it’s like I’m like a door mat. I just cannot pick myself up off the ground. It feels like having to launch a rocket and there is not enough fuel. I just wish that it would be or that inertia would be just physical instead of mental because the mental inertia is just so like damaging and debilitating or it can be, you know. And it just lasts for days, maybe, you know. Definitely hours and hours. I don’t like that. I’m like a totally different person then. [Pause.]

I don’t know like. I even, not, apparently give the impression of that. I have no idea. And that is not good.

THERAPIST: Give the impression that?

CLIENT: That I’m like not talking and not communicating and all that. I spoke in class. Like I was loud and everything and yeah; on several occasions. But then my professor still sent me an e-mail after class saying why aren’t you talking? Why are you like scribbling on the paper? Talk to me. I was like – I did reply to him – I said, I did talk. I was just thinking.

[00:30:33]

Maybe other people get that e-mail too. But.

THERAPIST: I think there are times you’re disengaged that you may not realize that that’s what you’re conveying.

CLIENT: Yeah.

I had to see the doctor yesterday and I went and I had to wait 30 minutes and I got so mad. I was about to leave and then she called me in. She’s like what’s up, what’s wrong? And I just had to say I was feeling like a low sugar. So she went and got me a Power Bar. [Laughs.] And it’s like what am I like…I can’t convey this to everyone. How am I going to get a job? How am I going to keep that job? How am I going to…if I’m teaching in the future, how are people going to…how are students going to react if I just kind of slip in to like low energy mode, you know?

THERAPIST: Well that case it sounded like you were really getting annoyed.

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: In that case, yesterday, you were annoyed with her.

CLIENT: Yeah, I was very pissed. I went and asked the receptionist, how much longer is it going to be? And she just kind of, you know, looked away and I got so mad. I was like, okay, yeah; ignore me. And she’s like, “I’m looking at the chart.” And then she came out and she was like, “I was looking at the chart.” And I’m like well you made no show of, you denied [inaudible – 32:16] like you even heard me. That had like a little fire in [inaudible – 32:24]. Sorry. I don’t know. [Pause.]

My friend has – I don’t know why I’m bringing this up – but she has MS, and I feel like she and I bring each other down at times. Because she has this attitude like, I’m going to die and you know like I’m going to be in a wheelchair and I’m going to not do this and not do that. It’s pathetic. So most of the time I’m like encouraging her, like her saying all that brings out my more active side. But sometimes you think it’s like that maybe the volume needs to be turned down. Which is why I’m like attracted to follow because he’s like active and he’s like…he brings out that side and like, you know; he’s like say yes, you know. Just say yes. [Pause.]

[00:33:49]

THERAPIST: Well it’s hard to be engaged when you feel at times you don’t want to be somewhere or you have to be somewhere because you’re obligated to be; you don’t want to be.

CLIENT: Yeah. You can’t change. [Pause.]

I realize it’s like…I feel physically and mentally very different at different times. I know you’re going to think it sounds so silly. But like it’s like [inaudible – 35:41]. And you know, it was a cold day, right, and I wasn’t out for much, but just you know, from the station and that you know, school. But I was physically bored. I don’t think I worked out yesterday. But certain other days, like when I go running, I feel kind of much taller, you know. I’m wondering if it’s because you know, I spend more time Chris yesterday and he’s kind of tall; much taller than me. [inaudible – 36:24] is kind of short. It’s silly, but maybe it does have an effect. [Pause.]

Yeah, just like it’s all around me. Like I feel short and I feel disengaged and unproductive. And then other days it’s just like I spring up and often feel tall and get stuff done. [Pause.]

[00:37:18]

Yeah, it’s just weird that tall spaces can have that effect. Like maybe I shouldn’t think about it too much; it may be too damaging. Like I’m at my own place. There is no reference. You know it’s like I am me and I don’t feel short or tall; I just feel…I might feel tall, you know. I like own the space. It’s a tiny little…but I feel like I own that much space. I can own it. But then I own this place. It’s like, yeah, you know. Like it definitely feels like [inaudible – 39:20] dwarfs. It’s not just his height. Like he has like high ceilings. But you know it’s like I don’t feel as accomplished there. And then a taller space, I do feel accomplished because I do all the cooking. Yeah. Different. [Pause.]

It’s weird. Like yesterday he came back and he said I want to apologize for the summer. And I’m like, why? I don’t want to talk about it. I don’t want to hear about it, you know.

THERAPIST: What was he referring to?

CLIENT: Just what happened with that woman and her father. I guess he was talking to a friend and it came up because he was like, the same circle and that friend knows this woman. So, I guess, the friend was asking Chris or talked to Bryce and Chris was just saying I don’t want to see her and then Chris told him what happened and I guess the friend was talking more like or saying something like wrong; it wasn’t right or something. And he came and apologized that he didn’t respond to the e-mail because she accused me and stuff. I’m like as you know, you’re kind and you didn’t do…I don’t expect you to do anything different, you know. [Pause.]

Just weird. Appearance like, yeah I look. So it’s not that bad. You know like I started seeing other men because of this and I left your circle and found a new circle. So I’m doing okay. I used that as an excuse to be promiscuous or whatever. [Pause.]

Are we out of time?

THERAPIST: No. You brought up on Monday something we haven’t really talked about very much to this point, maternity leave and the logistics of maybe how you feel about it. You might want to make sure we can talk about it today and continue to talk about it.

CLIENT: Sure, yeah. When is the leave?

[00:42:11]

THERAPIST: So, assuming all goes as planned, I’ll be here through the third week of June, which is I think June 16th is that Monday. I think that’s so…through that week. And then I’ll be out. And what I hope to do is come in a day or so a week starting at the end of July so that I would at least be able to see you once a week. But I will e-mail you probably mid-July just to let you know how things are going.

And then the second week in August, I’m away that week. And then the third week I plan on coming back more like a regular schedule. So I’ll certainly be able to see you a couple of times before then. And then you’ll come back regularly the…I think it’s the second full or third full week in August. Something like that.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And I’ll also have someone covering for me should anything come up. Or if you wanted to see someone in the interim, you could do that too. We could talk about that.

CLIENT: Okay. Yeah, I hope there are no crises. [Laughs.] But, yeah. I was actually thinking we could do once a week in May, just because I feel kind of, as we talked about, burdened about so many things.

THERAPIST: That’s a terrible idea.

CLIENT: Yeah? Why?

THERAPIST: I mean I’m seeing the tongue and cheek, and I mean that. And I’m also aware that my saying you should come in more and then you feeling obligated to do so is itself a dynamic. [Pause.]

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I think I have two more weeks of classes and maybe once the classes are over I’ll feel less stressed out.

THERAPIST: So tell me about, you know, “I hope there’s not a crisis.” Tell me about that feeling.

CLIENT: Yeah, I was just being funny. But like, yeah, I don’t think so. Like everything is stable. Yeah. What would a crisis look like? I think crisis, in my case, would be something really unexpected. Like what happened last summer. And I don’t anticipate something like that happening because I don’t think I’m going anywhere.

THERAPIST: But even in that circumstance, you didn’t contact me.

CLIENT: [Laughs.]

THERAPIST: I’m not being like…I mean a very serious…

CLIENT: Yeah, but I didn’t know right. Like I was in India and I didn’t know…I honestly don’t understand like the dynamics between me and you, like as my therapist. I don’t understand like how much we’re supposed to communicate when we’re not actually in session.

[00:45:10]

THERAPIST: We did have Skype the year before though, so we did communicate…

CLIENT: Yeah, because we talked about doing that because those were sessions, right. I don’t know…because I’ve told you like I’m going away for two months. How am I supposed to like…? I don’t know like I could like e-mail you in the middle and say, “Hey, I’m just, you know. Can we Skype?”

THERAPIST: I’m your therapist not only in these sessions, but I’m your therapist. And if you need to contact me, you can contact me. You can always contact me.

CLIENT: I didn’t know that. [Laughs nervously.]

THERAPIST: Well maybe I should have made that more explicit. But I am always…I mean. It almost…I feel like, I mean, some of it is just your needing to have, obviously, more information than I’m realizing. I wonder if some of it is connected to what we were talking about on Monday. Like are we connected and like are you just present for these sessions, or is there like a connection that’s ongoing throughout whether we’re in each other’s presence or not? And there is certainly a highly…there’s a highly structured format to our relationship and I appreciate that. So there’s not peace, but there’s sort of like this ongoing like how you feel connected to me or other people outside. And I’m your therapist in here, outside of here. If you need me, you can reach out to me. We’ll figure out a way to be in contact and for us to talk or meet or whatever. And that’s always true.

CLIENT: Oh okay. I didn’t know that.

THERAPIST: It is always true. It is…my maternity leave is definitely, you know, a bit of an anomaly in that sense. You can still…certainly after a week or so I’ll be checking e-mail to again. You can certainly feel free to e-mail me. I will also have someone covering for me who will be more consistently present. But like I said, by, hopefully by mid-July I hope to e-mail you and let you know kind of the deal in terms of, okay, I think I can be back third or fourth week and come in for an hour or so here and there. So that’s what I hope to do.

CLIENT: Okay.

[00:47:16]

THERAPIST: But I like to be available as much as possible. And for some reason, like maternity leave, I can’t be, I’ll have someone else who’s available to you.

CLIENT: Okay. That would be helpful. Yeah. Thank you.

THERAPIST: You will not be alone.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don’t feel alone as much because I’ve like [inaudible – 47;36] to be more self-reliant. So yeah. I don’t like…

THERAPIST: But the question…so that’s true, and that’s good. But the question for you is it’s not simply about sort of over-relying, but it’s about feeling reliant, how people rely on each other in ways that feel burdensome, rather than relying on ways in which you feel sort of like people want…like they want to take care of you. They want to take care of each other. They don’t feel obligated to. It doesn’t feel shackled. There’s not simply, in my mind for you, just relying less on people. Like that’s the goal per se. But it’s a different kind of reliance.

CLIENT: Yeah, I see that. Like last night I was like after my long phone conversation and multiple…I was ridiculously distracted and trying to work on this poem and like it just wasn’t coming together. And I wrote this e-mail to my professor and I wondered about sending it and I wondered if that sending it meant how I turned…how, in here, you say you turn to me when you don’t, you know, when you’re confused or whatever.

[00:48:51]

So I thought about whether or not to send it, but I did send it. And then in the morning, she replied and kind of made a small suggestion about the poem and then I was like so totally like…like…yeah, I found that so refreshing. Like she didn’t think it was a burden. She didn’t think I was making excuses. She didn’t think I was relying on her too much and I wasn’t self-reliant. But that, you know, as a professor, as a poet, she was able to make a suggestion and that…I found that very…that interaction very rewarding, you know.

THERAPIST: Well we do need to stop here. I will see you on Monday, okay.

CLIENT: Okay, thank you.

THERAPIST: You were great.

CLIENT: Have a good week.

THERAPIST: Thank you. Take care.

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