TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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CLIENT: Break out my thing. Anyway, peace out. I�m going to Reno tonight where it�s 90 degrees and sunny for the next five days. I�m really glad that I decided to take � to have the rest of the day off instead of going in. I got to sleep a little late, because we have an event and I was getting some stuff done. I realized that � well, not realized. But it�s like, I think going away always reminds me that despite how I feel about my job and that I�m bored and that I feel this and that and the other, I�m very dependent on there and have a significant amount of power in terms of what goes on with events and how they�re organized logistically and how they come together and all that. [1:05] And so then, when I�m going away or something, I always kind of have panic.

Like, then everything�s going to fall apart, and people are � For example, there�s policy committee dinner tonight which happens every semester. And this is the first one in my whole time at work here that I�m missing it. And it happens to be a somewhat big one only because it�s Alice�s (sp) last as director. And Matt who used to be my supervisor, who is manager of � I always forget his frickin� title � educational services or whatever. He manages the visiting scholars, visiting professor. So he has � I�m not even clear on why he�s like, the policy committee, their person. I think it�s because the vote on the professor there. The connection was probably previous, when he was actually in events, and then because they�re faculty and he�s education. [2:15] But anyway, he ends up being � he�s really annoying in general. He�s gay and very � and a perfectionist. And a little bit stuck in his ways. A bit older.

And so, first of all, on Tuesday � on Monday when it was Passover I had to miss the lecture that evening, which I missed those before. No big deal. He said he was doing it for the second time already. But then, I came in in the morning and I was like, so how was last night? She�s like, good. And I was like, did Matt help? And she�s like, uhm, he directed. He helped � She�s like, and then as soon as the bar closed down, he left, and I moved all the tables back by myself and with the bartender. And I was like, fantastic. [3:08]

So then I�m talking to him about policy committee yesterday, and I�m saying, I�m not going to be here at all on Wednesday, I�m trying to get, you know, this and that. He�s okay, you�ve us on who�s on and she�s all set with the nametags and the packets. And I was like, we�ve spoken several times about what policy committee dinner is, and I know that she�s also spoken with you. I understand that she gave you the printout of the name tag template, and that you�re working with her on that, and she�ll need to print and alphabetize and group the name tags. That will need to happen tomorrow. So it would be great if you could help with that. And I looked through that again.

And I was like � and he was like, in the packets? And I was like, yes, we received the materials from Alice. Obviously, he knows that. He was on the e-mail. He could have fucking just taken the initiative and oh, I printed this out. I know you guys are really busy. And I was like, that will get worked on today. [4:05] So then I � and I had spoken to Iris already, basically letting her know that I�m going to make sure that he�s on top of this stuff and he�s not � she should let me know. Because it�s not cool. Everybody has to pull their weight. He wants to take ownership, but in a very hands-off way, and that�s not cool, particularly with what�s going on in terms of the change of leadership, possible staffing changes. Iris (ph) is new. This is her first time. She�s maybe being groomed into my position and should be trained properly as such. Anyway, so I end up making this e-mail that I sent to Iris and Matt, copying Glenda (sp) and Vera (sp) basically bullet-pointing each thing that needs to happen, what�s already been done, specifying, Matt, it will be great for you to help with the stuffing and the alphabetizing of the � Yeah, get your hands dirty. [5:08] I made the packets. �Cause Iris is also busy. She�s picking up the slack for me for the next few days, you know.

And there�s a lot going on. We�re not stopping just because I�m going, you know. So I did that for her. That�s why I stayed a little later. And I wrote � but I copied Miriam and Glenda � and not blind copied. Because I want him to see that they�re seeing and that they can check in with him and say, you know, what�s going on with this. No, okay Trina, are you going to take care of everything and she knows what�s going on and I can just pretend she�s you and not explain anything or help with anything? So I felt good about that, though. Because, fuck that. And I know that he�s probably resentful of it.

Just a couple of weeks ago � I was sure there was something I forgot to do. Just a couple weeks ago, I sent him an e-mail asking him to help with something, and he didn�t respond for two days, so in that time, I was able to get it done. And I know that he was avoiding it. [6:15] That�s obvious. He said, oh, can we talk about � He e-mailed back and said, can we chat about this? What�s to fucking chat about? I asked you to please send an e-mail out on Alice�s behalf, which I�ve done a thousand times, and you have, too. Just do it when you get the e-mail. Don�t e-mail me back and say, let�s chat about it. What�s to fucking chat about? Like, fuck you, so I didn�t do it a couple months ago. Big deal.

I have other shit going on. I was working on my own. He�s very frustrating to work with and he tries to act all buddy-buddy. But then tries to be my boss. I told Tiff and she�s like, yeah, he�s out of control to copy us. He comes to work whenever he wants. But anyway. I�m really looking forward to this trip and just getting away and having fun with the girls. [7:19] But then I have to come back again. (pause) I also don�t love flying. And this is kind of an annoying trip, because I�m stopping in Missouri City of all places, and then changing planes. So I�m going to be traveling � Well, Reno is three hours behind, so I�m getting there at 9:00 p.m. my time, that means their time 12:00. And then it will be traveling since 5:00 p.m. So it�s a little bit of a -

THERAPIST: Schlep.

CLIENT: It wouldn�t be if it was a direct flight. It�s like, four hours. Five hours. Whatever. [8:28] Plus, I�m changing planes, too. And I always worry about my luggage when I change planes. I feel like I�m babbling right now. (pause) [9:27]

THERAPIST: I wonder if there�s something about not having so much to worry about or anticipate taking care of while you�re away that makes you feel � uneasy, or there�s nothing really to talk about it as compared to, you know, what you had been talking about with work where there�s a bunch of stuff to do and, as I think often, maybe a little bit. But I think it�s true that some knucklehead who�s not doing what they�re supposed to be doing. [10:29]

CLIENT: By like, going away or something?

THERAPIST: I mean like Matt.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: He�s a knucklehead. He�s not pulling his weight or doing what he�s supposed to be doing, and guess who�s going to have to make sure it�s taken care of.

CLIENT: Yeah. Babysit.

THERAPIST: Whereas, you know, not quite like that with the trip. I mean, you�re a little nervous about flying and a little nervous about losing your bags with changing planes. But I don�t know.

CLIENT: No, I mean � well, because I think also this trip � It�s a place that I�ve never been. I know nothing. I don�t feel like researching any restaurants or anything to do. Lucy�s (sp) been there a huge number of times, I think, or a handful of times, at least. Mindy�s been living there for a year. So I do � I just kind of feel like, eh. [11:27] Just tell me where to go. I�ll follow the leader. Just tell me what shoes to wear. And that feels good. And I was just thinking, like before while you were thinking, that I always � since I always feel like I�m taking care of stuff. I�m always doing this and I wish that I had somebody that was helping me think about stuff more or helping me take care of stuff more. But exactly. It�s nice to think about having taken care of work. You know, that I go home, pack, cleanup, take care of the cats.

Get them ready, tell Helen, whatever. Clip their nails. Do everything I�ve got to do, and then just leave and not really have to think about too much. Like, my bills are paid. I got my taxes back. I�m getting paid again on Friday. Whatever. I have $100 from Sergio to gamble with if I want to. [12:30] Yeah, it�s good. I mean, as soon as I get back on Tuesday, it�s like five events that week. But it�s nice to have a little break. Also, I�m the only single one on this trip. Lucy�s married. Stephanie and Aiden. Mindy has this new relationship. And I mean, it�s also the fact that the activities � I mean, Sandy might come and hang out a little bit, just because we want to meet him � Mindy�s boyfriend.

But other than that, it�s not like Aiden or Jim are here. [13:30] But I�m also � maybe this is the result of them being in relationships, it may not. I don�t know. But I�m also the most in shape. Like, it was funny, actually. Just now, Stephanie sent a text that said, she�s talking about some jeans, some skinny jeans that her sister got that she doesn�t like, because they�re itchy or something. She�s sensitive. Anyway, she wrote in the text, do you, Mindy or Lucy want to buy them? And I thought she was calling me, you. Like, you, Mindy or Lucy want to buy them? And so I was like, maybe. And then, she goes, no Trina, not you. You�re not our size. And I was like, oh. And then she wrote, that�s a good thing. And I was like, yeah. Thank you. But I don�t know why � I didn�t realize I don�t think, that Mindy was. I mean, Stephanie and Lucy have always been the two bigger ones. Lucy�s like, big boned. So she�s always been a little bit overweight. Stephanie�s always had like, chubby. [14:48] Mindy and me were always smaller. But then Mindy, once she hit puberty, her ass expanded to the width of that thing over there. And then � But I did notice last time as far as she had also gained weight everywhere else.

So that�s something to feel good about. Even though I don�t feel I�m at my fittest that I want to be. Yeah, I mean, I don�t feel like � Yesterday, I felt really bad, yesterday actually. So what happened was Sergio came over on Monday night, which was fine. And it was nice, except I woke up in a puddle. I was so sweaty. And I don�t know that weather had been warmer on Monday and then my heat was still set as normal and also having another person in the bed or something. [16:05] But anyway, besides that. It�s fine, but then we woke up kind of early, I guess, and the cat was scratching. The cat is always scratching at the door, because he doesn�t like them in the room. But then I�m like, you know, she�d be less annoying if she was in here. She wouldn�t be scratching at the door. She wouldn�t be bothering you. I�d make sure she doesn�t crawl on you. Whatever.

Anyway. And it�s like, six something. So we�re up and he�s up getting dressed, leaving. And I was like, oh, don�t leave. So then he laid back down for a second. And I had let Frida (ph) in. At this point, it was too annoying. And she had jumped up on the bed and then I was holding her down. And then she jumped down. And then Jack (ph) jumped up on the bed, and Sergio rolled out of bed as fast as can be. He�s not even near you. I don�t understand. He�s like, I don�t like them on the bed. I just don�t like it on the bed with me. I was like, you let them sit on your lap when we�re watching TV and stuff. I don�t understand. He�s, no, no. It�s like a weird thing. [17:18]

And then anyway, he literally was out the door. His ass was on fire. Bye, have a good day, have a good trip, mwah, whatever. So I texted him and I was like, you ran out of here like your ass was on � So then, I�m like, sitting there. It�s like, 6:15. I�m looking around me like what just happened. I�m in my pajamas looking at the cats like, okay. And I felt kind of bad. And the weather�s all cloudy. And then, he was like, oh, I�m stressed. I have a lot to do, blah, blah, blah like, every day. I was okay, whatever. And then, it just made me feel bad, because it make me feel like I don�t really � because as much as he � Whatever we have or are doing, it doesn�t really feel like he cares about me really that much to just like, bye. [8:08] Or just like, bring your work clothes. You can shower here and then like -

THERAPIST: Right. If he�d rather get going.

CLIENT: And then, the bathroom, he always uses the hand towel and puts it back. And I have it like, folded hanging. You can�t just use it and leave it. So it�s crumpled up in a ball, hanging on the thing retarded. And that peeves. It�s annoying. If you�re going to be retarded and say you don�t want a toothbrush and not doing anything and rush out of the house, at least put my thing back the way found it after you washed your face or whatever. And then � so I felt really bad at work and I had a really hard time getting started and was just feeling really like � my eyelids felt heavy and I felt kind of sad and stuff. And then, kind of once it got going I had a lot to do which was fine. But I really didn�t feel good.

And then I felt better when I got home. And I didn�t really � it was nice to feel that I didn�t really � it was nice to feel I didn�t have to rush and pack and do all this stuff, because I had taken it (inaudible at 19:25). So that was good and then I was able to sleep in a little bit this morning. So I�m, you know, feeling better. But yeah. It was a difficult start to the day. [19:41] And I think I keep dreaming about Lucas, because I � also. And feeling like I want to talk to him or something. (pause) [21:15]

THERAPIST: I think what part of what you�re describing is it�s also frustrating that you have so much to take care of and there�s not � people aren�t more so taking care of you. That�s not new or surprising.

CLIENT: I think it�s also like, as much as I realize that there�s a lot that I want to work on and have to work on. It would be difficult to start a relationship just because of other issues that I�m dealing with, I still want a relationship, and that�s difficult for me. [22:12] And I�m just not having success with it and stuff.

THERAPIST: It�s shitty. I imagine than aspect, there�s probably other things in this too, but of the stuff with your being more fit than your friends and them being in relationships of like, as usual, you�re taking care of things. You�re on top of things and things are working out for them.

CLIENT: Right. Exactly. I mean, it�s not like I�m attracted to any of their partners. I don�t feel like oh, I deserve them more than they do. But still.

THERAPIST: But you feel things are working out for them. Probably something like that. [23:30] Plus, you and I should talk about some of the analytic stuff. I mean, I haven�t mentioned it. This week�s an unusual week. Next week�s an unusual week. But I will try to arrange an alternative for the following week and try to get you a sense of scheduling stuff.

CLIENT: I mean, it will be easier after May, too. Because then I won�t have any other events and stuff. And so it will be much easier to find time during the day or leave early or come late or whatever. [24:49]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I know my schedule should be opening up around then, too.

CLIENT: Perfect. Yeah, I mean mid-May is when stuff slows down for me. After Mother�s Day, which is not even � this is all very close.

THERAPIST: It�s funny how quickly it all comes up. Are there other things around that we should talk about that are on your mind or you have questions about?

CLIENT: I�ve not thought about it or could pinpoint right now, I don�t think. I know I�m just curious to see what it will feel like doing more sessions, but I haven�t really thought about it.

THERAPIST: And, do you know if you want to use the couch?

CLIENT: No. I don�t know yet. I have to talk to (inaudible at 25:50) or something. Let me think about it. I don�t know. [26:01]

THERAPIST: I was wondering because I guess you sound to me a bit kind of vulnerable about it. And what you want to do is go off somewhere else and make a decision about it and let me know. As it comes to what you might think or are talking about it or whatever. I�m not saying that you�re doing something wrong, but that�s what�s striking me about how you -

CLIENT: Well, I mean, what�s the difference between lying down and not facing you or whatever and then � Well, I guess I feel like this is more what I�m used to, but also if there�s some sort of different purpose of this kind of therapy that we�re going to try, and that sometimes, because I�ve told you that I just come in here and do some like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don�t want it to be more of that, so maybe then, transitioning to a different way of talking is going to kind of help that. Or maybe it will promote more just talking about whatever, because I�m starting off into space, which is not � you know, whatever. Not really paying attention or something. [27:22] Or maybe that�s the point. I don�t know. (pause)

THERAPIST: Well, I have a few different thoughts. One, is I guess there�s probably something going on there that at least I�m not clear about yet with your feeling � I guess both that earlier today and in general, and when you think about using the couch, where you feel like you�re just talking it�s like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it doesn�t feel substantial, I guess. It feels like sort of words evaporating into the ether I guess, is how I�m taking what you�re saying. [29:10] Actually, I think that probably fits very well with something that we call cross (inaudible at 29:27) which is you�re not feeling like you�re really there. What I was going to say was there for other people, but I don�t mean in a way one usually means that. Not that you�re not there help other people, but that as far as other people are concerned, you and what matters to you, isn�t really there. Like, you�re overlooked or people push you aside, or they don�t want to hear it. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Sometimes I feel like that. Wait � I don�t understand. Or, the context.

THERAPIST: Sure. [30:14] It seems you talk a lot about people � I mean like, your mom yesterday, for example. I mean, sure, there�s a way in which you�re frustrated at her passivity around her weight and taking care of herself. But � and the way she kind of shuts down any effort you want to talk to her about that. But to me a part of that is how it doesn�t seem to register at all to her -

CLIENT: That it matters to me.

THERAPIST: that it actually really matters to you. Partly, you�re wanting to take care of her, and partly you�re trying to have a mom that -

CLIENT: Takes care of herself for me. Right.

THERAPIST: And so in that sense, it�s like what matters to you isn�t really there. I mean, there for you, but it�s like, she doesn�t even see it kind of. She doesn�t react as though she�s sort of taking it in and saying Trina, I know this is really important to you. It�s really hard for � You know, there�s not even an acknowledgement of it, let alone acting on it. It seems like that kind of stuff comes up a lot. [31:28] You know, it�s Stephanie or Sergio or whoever. Your dad. Anyway, so I guess that even though you have a certain talking out into the either and stuff just evaporates, reminds me of that. It�s a feeling � It seems � I could imagine it evokes a similar meaning for you of not really being there. It is sort of at a different level.

But it seems similar to me. And I think that you�re afraid of that. You�re frustrated by it, because you want to feel like there�s something more you can hold onto. We talked about this. I understood that. I clarified this. I know what to do about that. Things you can hold onto. But I guess there�s also the sense I get of it sort of dissolving. And you�re worried about more that you�re on the couch. And if there�s not the same kind of facial � social face-to-face connectedness that there is to here. [32:58] That seems important to me, probably in its own right. I�m not trying to dodge talking about the couch, but it seems relevant in any case.

CLIENT: I mean, I think it also relates to what I want to try to get out of having this kind of therapy. You know, and -

THERAPIST: What do you have in mind?

CLIENT: I don�t. Just feeling like � just that I want to feel better is what I want to get out of it. And I�m � and figure out some ways to deal with � and figure out ways to cope with things that happen around me and how to understand things differently in terms of, you know, what may be affecting how I react to things, you know. Whether it�s my upbringing or my parents or my mom�s drinking or my dad�s this or that or whatever. [34:21] Or maybe less about coping mechanisms and more like about just understanding. Trying to get a better grasp on why I might have certain feelings towards things or certain reactions towards things or inclinations to act in certain ways, so that I can feel better about it or stop doing it or change the ways I do things or something. That was really a stream of consciousness. [35:10]

THERAPIST: Well, I think maybe partly anticipating coming in more often, and I suspect for other reasons, too, you do seem here to be somewhat freer. In other words, letting yourself talk when you�re not so sure what you�re talking about.

CLIENT: I haven�t done that before? [36:07]

THERAPIST: It�s not that you haven�t done it. It just seems like you�re kind of more comfortable talking off the cuff that way, as opposed to coming in sort of knowing what you want to talk about and how and where it�s going. All of that. But I guess I also want to make it clear that � Interesting. I thought it was a (inaudible at 36:39) Like, I am paying attention to what you�re saying, too.

CLIENT: Well, good. At least one of us is.

[Laughter]

THERAPIST: What you want to know is mostly to feel better. Also, presumably a way to have some insight as to why you�re getting upset and having trouble in the ways that you are. [37:08]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I don�t know. The more I think about it, maybe I�m barking up the wrong tree here. But I sort of think that there�s something to this sense of just talking to nowhere and I think feeling things sort of dissolve or feel empty or insubstantial.

CLIENT: You said, you think there�s something to it?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Like, I wonder if it�s more a part of your experience in general than at least I and like we have been aware of.

CLIENT: Feeling insignificant?

THERAPIST: No. I guess I feel like there�s sort of two different things. [38:25] I was sort of putting them together, and maybe they go together, but maybe they don�t. I�m not really sure.

CLIENT: What are the two things?

THERAPIST: One, is the sort of social experience where the other person isn�t really making room for you or isn�t clear about where you�re coming from or what matters to you. You know, sort of is all about whatever�s going on with them. I mean, that�s kind of a social thing. And we kind of � you know, in some ways we know about that. It sucks. We can see how it happens in regard to your parents, especially your dad, but also your mom and friends and partners and stuff. And I�m sure there�s more to learn about that, but I don�t know. It seems almost like a little more existential or something. This feeling that like, you try to do something and it�s as though nothing happened. Or you�re working at something and it�s not � It�s not just that it doesn�t make a difference and that it doesn�t have an impact on the world. But it�s almost like nothing happened. [39:34]

CLIENT: Yeah. Totally. That�s like my hamster wheel thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah. There, it�s kind of in a different way feeling like you�re not really there or what you�re doing doesn�t really count, you know? But I wonder, I guess how sort of how often that�s a part of things for you, feeling that way. I�m not sure. Maybe it�s one nice thing about work.

CLIENT: Yes. I was just thinking about it in terms of work. Even then, I sometimes feel like � No, at work I don�t feel that as much, actually. �Cause, you know, I get the e-mails saying, thanks for all your good work on this, Trina. [40:34]

THERAPIST: Right. And you know you got something done, and that it made a difference and something did or didn�t go right because of what you did.

CLIENT: It�s more tangible.

THERAPIST: It sort of makes you more tangible.

CLIENT: Yeah. But in terms of other stuff � Well, whatever, just trying to get in better shape, because that would be great. And as if you didn�t do anything.

THERAPIST: Well, we ought to stop for now.

CLIENT: Okay. So I�ll see you next -

THERAPIST: Have a nice trip. I�ll talk to you next Friday?

CLIENT: Thank you. Yeah. If you � are you away next week? Is that what it is?

THERAPIST: I�m away Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.

CLIENT: Okay. Got it. Okay, so I�ll see you on Friday morning then. Thank you.

THERAPIST: You�re welcome.

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