TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
THERAPIST: They will not last long.
CLIENT: They're so good. Eddie, on Jeremy's side, that was Jeremy's mom's best friend growing up, made brownies out of her apartment for a living and sold them to the building staff, and this is better, I'd say these were really good.
THERAPIST: Wow. Like I said, they will not last long. [00:01:00]
CLIENT: Do you want one now?
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: It was Joanne's birthday.
THERAPIST: Also, tell me again, the dates that you're going to be out. I remember that we're on for Tuesday this coming week.
CLIENT: I'm going to be out Wednesday through Monday, so Tuesday of the week after.
THERAPIST: They're really good.
CLIENT: They're really good. (laughs) Thanks for eating one.
THERAPIST: No problem. Wow. [00:02:04]
CLIENT: They are shamelessly underdone, which was part of why the recipe is so good. I think probably, bakers didn't care as much about salmonella in the '70s as they do today, because they're brownies aren't as good.
THERAPIST: Probably worth the salmonella.
CLIENT: As long as we don't eat a whole tray. Wednesday through Monday?
THERAPIST: Wednesday through Monday. We're good on Tuesday this coming week and then I will also figure something out for... I guess it would be Tuesday or Friday. [00:03:18]
CLIENT: I'm a little nervous about the trip. I've had so many traumatic physical experiences while traveling, that it's just like there's just this constellation of anxiety provoking things that I'm anticipating. I take an early flight on Wednesday and traveling while tired, being away from my structure and being away from Jeremy. (pause) Feeling lonely. So, it's not really occupying that much energy, because I've come so far in terms of my reaction to low blood sugar. It's really incredible. I don't I haven't felt dizzy in so long, and it's incredible what anxiety can do to your body chemically. So, so I don't really fear that I'm going to faint. [00:05:32]
THERAPIST: That's terrific.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: That's kind of a new scale.
CLIENT: Yeah, it's really different.
THERAPIST: That's great.
CLIENT: And, I haven't done a lot of traveling to non-third world countries, so I think a lot of my fears are not going to be realized, because I can drink the water and my safety isn't in danger, and I can speak the language, and like all of these things that contribute to the feeling of loneliness and not belonging, they're not really true about this trip. And it is perhaps, like the most plush trip I will ever go on in a first world country, like Kelly's paying for everything and there's five hours of this five-day conference, of every day, of free time for skiing and playing.
THERAPIST: Do you ski? [00:07:09]
CLIENT: No. I want to learn how to snowboard. I think I would be good at it. I don't mind falling. So whatever I do, I don't mind falling.
THERAPIST: I don't snowboard but I've heard there's a lot of I don't ski any more either, but I heard there's a lot of falling involved at first.
CLIENT: Yeah. I think that's why you have to do it for three or four days and it develops, if you want to learn anything. But I think it gets to a point which is shared among all of these travel experiences and in my daily life, which is a lack of self-soothing ability and feeling lonely. (pause) And like the existential dread that comes along. Either it comes after feeling lonely or precedes it.
[Pause: 00:08:39 to 00:10:58]
THERAPIST: This is where I imagine it gets difficult to talk about something to do with the loneliness or the dread, because it gets in the way, I think, of how you otherwise want things to be here, like as though I there's something I'm not going to sort of take in well or that's going to disconnect us if you say some of the things that you feel about that? [00:12:18]
CLIENT: I mean, it's put your hand in front of your mouth. That was a classic opportunity. I don't feel lonely here, I feel very connected, despite the disgruntle and the discouragement and the sadness about the reality. Why don't I talk about it more?
THERAPIST: As we've talked about, there can be things about feeling lonely or what it's like when you're not here, that are hard to talk about, I think, or even hard to remember, I think because of worry about either some kind of response I'll have to them, such as you know, I'll kind of maybe brush them off or try to talk you out of them, or it will make me not as excited about you or something like that.
[Pause: 00:13:58 to 00:14:47]
CLIENT: I'm going to try and not face you here. (long pause) This sucks. I don't like not facing you.
THERAPIST: I am still here. [00:16:03]
CLIENT: Yeah, but I can't watch you.
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.
CLIENT: What if you didn't face me either?
THERAPIST: Would you like me not to face you either?
CLIENT: Yeah, can we try that?
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: I don't know, you can sort of turn your head and still see me.
THERAPIST: Better?
CLIENT: Yeah.
[Pause: 00:16:43 to 00:18:22]
CLIENT: I don't know.
[Pause: 00:18:24 to 00:21:14]
CLIENT: I feel sad.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Do you also feel a little ashamed?
CLIENT: Yes. (pause)
THERAPIST: Like you don't me to see something about not how bad you are but how much you're struggling?
CLIENT: I don't have a conclusion. [00:22:22]
THERAPIST: Ah-huh.
CLIENT: And it's hard to interact. It's hard for me to interact without a conclusion. Not a resolution but like some kind of synthesis that happens inside me, and I don't have that.
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.
CLIENT: And also, maybe you might be critical of the way that I (pause) try to see the bright side, which isn't necessarily a conscious defense but it's just how I receive the feelings. [00:23:50]
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. I might kind of mistakenly think that it was just because you wanted to avoid the more upset part.
CLIENT: Well you've said it before.
THERAPIST: And?
CLIENT: You said -
THERAPIST: And I was agreeing.
CLIENT: Yeah, you had.
THERAPIST: It sounds like I was wrong.
CLIENT: Why, I don't think so. [00:24:55] (long pause)
THERAPIST: When I was it felt critical.
CLIENT: Yeah, it did. But I don't think you were wrong. I do think I do try to spend most of the time thinking my way out of it or feeling like shifting my feelings.
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [00:26:01]
CLIENT: If I'm really good at that or if I'm used to being really good at that, that's a way better short-term mental state. (pause) Why did you say I don't feel tense yesterday? [00:27:19]
THERAPIST: I'm not sure. What was it like when I said it?
CLIENT: It felt like it was kind of an ass-hole thing to say, and I also felt like you were lying. And then I like disregarded my intention and said that I didn't feel tense, but that I felt on, and that was a lie too. (pause)
THERAPIST: It was an ass-hole thing for me to say because I it came across like I guess wanted to in a way deflate you or not acknowledge like tension between us? [00:28:58]
CLIENT: Mm-hmm. I don't know about the deflating part but yeah, not acknowledge tensions between us and sort of going at the contrast and the asymmetry.
THERAPIST: I did want to point out the contrast.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I see. You may feel tense but not me.
CLIENT: Right. (pause) Can we face each other again? [00:30:06]
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: That was good, we should do that more.
THERAPIST: Thanks for telling me.
CLIENT: Thanks for telling you what?
THERAPIST: About yesterday.
CLIENT: Oh. (pause) This is very hard. I don't want it to change. I also don't want it to change.
THERAPIST: How long has this been harder, the last couple of days? [00:32:20]
CLIENT: I don't know about the last couple of days but in general, I feel like I got chewed up and spit back out at the end of our sessions, and then I have to recover. (pause) I deliberately used the passive voice, I don't feel like you chewed me up or that I (voice very soft; inaudible), but that's what happens here. Even though I also feel like a connection gets stronger and stronger. (pause) I think it would be useful to take a break from everything else and just focus on this, and not have maybe like this and sitting and doing manual work and not have other stuff going on. There are places in the east where people do that. Not exactly in the context of psychotherapy but in the context of backwards, forward, psychological recovery. [00:35:33]
THERAPIST: Like retreats?
CLIENT: There's this there's this Japanese school of I don't know, I'm reading about it in the Couch and the Tree books. And I go back to this part and talk about it, but the point is so much of the tension comes from like wanting to be immersed or can't, like not being not helping or being able to be immersed, and then getting myself out of the land on hold. (pause) Does that make sense? [00:37:40]
THERAPIST: Um... (pause) Yeah, I was kind of... (pause) ... thinking back a little bit. I'm thinking of kind of the whole, what you're talking about. (pause) We just have a few minutes. There's something about a kind of (pause) there's something about perhaps an aspect of the tension between us and a sense of being chewed up and spit out and yanking yourself out of these holes in the ground, that seems violent. [00:41:17]
CLIENT: Mm-hmm.
THERAPIST: And I think I can see how, you know, there are ways that the circumstances hold for some of that, but there's something else I think, like a kind of reaction to feelings that you're having. Leaving here could be a lot of things and many of them not good, but feeling chewed up and spit out is a pretty particular one. (pause) And I I was a little perplexed yesterday, I'm still a little perplexed, about the need to like, why do you have to yank yourself out of these? I understand that you feel kind of pulled into them or stuck in them, but... [00:43:14]
CLIENT: I want to be immersed.
THERAPIST: Ah-huh.
CLIENT: Like I really want it to be as all encompassing as it is but it... um... but for some reason I can't. There's not enough room for it or it's too much or I don't know how to. I don't know how to face it head on, so it just feels like I'm getting like squeezed and there's not enough space or time (sniffles) or peace or calm with the feelings of compassion to just like let them resonate.
THERAPIST: I see. And that was part of the idea about the retreat. [00:45:18]
CLIENT: What?
THERAPIST: That was part of the idea about the retreat.
CLIENT: Yeah, if this could just sort of like be this doesn't feel like a recreational thing, like coming in the structure of it feels wrong for how immersed I want to be in it and how little I feel available or prepared or able to really immerse myself when I'm not here.
THERAPIST: I think some of it is the structure here. It makes things very difficult. It's totally weird and unnatural to meet for these particular short blocks of time, spread out a few days over the week. It's weird. But I think (pause) it feels like there might also be something really scaring you about the feelings that you maybe react a little violently to it against yourself over. I don't know, maybe there's some way that I'm not aware of, that I'm contributing to that, but I'm not trying to tell you there's anything wrong. I just... [00:47:44]
CLIENT: Well, it's pretty isolating, hard to it's hard to share the burden, which I think is how I'm used to processing anything.
THERAPIST: I think you're trapped in your head along this most of the time.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: And if you don't yank yourself out of it, you would be stuck and spinning by yourself.
CLIENT: Yeah, one, that feels awful. Two, I have this like other elephant, the graduate school, and I don't know, there's kind of a lot of pressure to be there. And I have this other elephant, Jeremy, who like poor guy, like he's like we were supposed to go on his insurance to save money, and then we paid $3,000 and then I was seeing someone outside of his insurance and then we're paying out of pocket for me to like spend time with a man I love who's not him, three times a week, which like doesn't feel appropriate for me or him. For me it feels completely inappropriate structure wise and like too short and too little, and for him it feels the opposite. That's not a topic of discussion much any more. I'm sort of just doing my own thing but it's isolating, it's not something I have a whole lot of support with. [00:50:11]
Remember when we talked on the phone?
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: That was really nice.
THERAPIST: I'm going to stop now, but if you let me out this, that will give us a chance to talk on the phone together before Monday.
CLIENT: Yesterday I wanted to talk on the phone with you but I talked to myself and it was really nice. It was a self-soothing activity that happened to work yesterday. [00:51:23]
THERAPIST: You've said quite a lot.
CLIENT: What?
THERAPIST: You said quite a lot.
CLIENT: Thanks for listening.
THERAPIST: Sure. Thank you again, for the brownie.
CLIENT: You're welcome.
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