TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in.

CLIENT: It's been a while.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I just feel like maybe I'm wrong.

THERAPIST: Yeah, a few weeks.

CLIENT: Yeah. We've been okay. We've had a couple of discussions that could have turned into fights, but didn't. One of them was last night.

MALE CLIENT: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah.

MALE CLIENT: I think that went well.

CLIENT: Brian injured his neck. I don't know how.

MALE CLIENT: Two weeks ago I woke up from some kind of a dream.

CLIENT: It got bad enough that he stayed home from work one day which to me was like, 'oh my God, something is really wrong because I once had to beg him to stay home when he had the flu, so.' And then we went up to Maine for the week with his family and it stayed really bad all week and then we were going to call his doctor when we got home. He's feeling better now. He had decided that he didn't want to call because he didn't want to play phone tag all the time and take vacation days to go to the doctor and what are they going to do for neck pain besides give you a pain killer or a muscle relaxant.

MALE CLIENT: Also it's gone. The pain's pretty much gone.

CLIENT: Oh, is it completely gone now?

MALE CLIENT: I think it is.

CLIENT: Awesome. And, but what had happened basically was that I said, have you called your doctor, and he said, oh no, I'll do it tomorrow and he kept saying that until last night when we had to talk about it when are you going to do it? And both started getting really upset about it but we talked through it in a way that made us I think, I felt like you -

MALE CLIENT: Yeah, I felt like you.

CLIENT: Well, it made me feel okay because I made me feel like I didn't have to apologize for what I had just done, but Brian also felt like he had led me to believe that something was going to happen and it felt a lot better. I don't remember what the other one was about. That was before Maine and I don't remember. [00:02:41]

MALE CLIENT: I don't remember what happened.

CLIENT: I don't remember what it was about but it got really tense at some point so I managed to get through it without starting to fight, so it was nice. (Sigh).

MALE CLIENT: Yeah. [00:02:58]

CLIENT: (Sigh) Oh no. It was about how one of the comments you made in our last session. I can't be calling you unless it's now okay to say that I called you.

THERAPIST: That was me.

CLIENT: Oh I'm sorry, I thought it was Brian's phone.

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Because I (unclear) talk -

THERAPIST: It's on vibrate but it doesn't always it's loud.

CLIENT: I thought it was this one. My phone hadn't been working and it would like -

MALE CLIENT: Everyone's sounds the same and so everyone does the -

THERAPIST:

CLIENT: The comment you made about how surprised you were that I really cared about Brian's family liking me upset me. Not because I thought it was an unfair comment but because I hadn't realized it and was really annoyed that it was actually a thing that I why do I care so much? And so I I think we talked about that and how at the beginning of our relationship I think that Brian had seriously and offhandedly made comments that made me very nervous about not only whether or not (unclear) was going to like me but in terms of like, oh will they like (unclear) but also, oh my God, what if they don't like me and then will it destroy our relationship and I think that as we've gotten more serious and as our relationship has progressed, Brian's not concerned about it at all because maybe you're much more comfortable now, I think, when there are conflicts where you have to choose between spending time with one of your brothers or spending time with me or you know, if your family does something one way and I'm suggesting we do it another way or less anxious about it, but I guess I think I did get the memo and was still really worried a lot of the time. So it was a good discussion to have, I think between us before we went on vacation, which was both relaxing and incredibly stressful. [00:05:15]

MALE CLIENT: (Chuckles).

CLIENT: But, I mean, it went pretty well. I got sick on the car ride up which was really upsetting because I'd been sick for a year and a half and I finally was better and the reason I didn't go to Maine last year was because I was too sick to go.

MALE CLIENT: It's a 10-hour car ride so it can be difficult for us to stop.

CLIENT: And well, not just difficult to stop but also difficult to tell your boyfriend's brother who is probably the most difficult person I've ever had to try to read before.

MALE CLIENT: (Chuckles)

CLIENT: Trying to like say, 'hey, I know I'm new and adding enough no matter how much you're happy to let me stress you out by coming with you guys, I'm going to have to ask you to stop driving and find and exit and find a bathroom now,' which was really awkward when I had to do that.

MALE CLIENT: Yeah, it's tricky in that long there's a long stretch in Bar Harbor where there isn't a bathroom.

CLIENT: There's nothing. Well, at one point there was we were in like a 100-mile stretch of Bar Harbor where there just wasn't an exit. So it was just like just hold on. So it was stressful. Then you got food poisoning that same night. That was fun.

MALE CLIENT: I did. (Chuckles). So both of us got sick and then I had the injured neck the whole time I was up there. But I think in terms of us, it went well. We didn't -

CLIENT: Yeah, it did make me think about some sort of the original problem that we were fighting over that led us to come here was about Brian's sister-in-law and after that trip I think I know we haven't talked about it, but I think I have a little bit more of an idea of what exactly the problem is with her that affects our relationship. Because you've said it's kind of silly if we break up over her being a jerk like that's really silly. And it's not really her, it's about us. But it's just to think that the ship as kind of sailed on your parents doing anything about her being here. You know, she's reaching out and they've just let it go because it's been like seven, eight years now of dealing with her. And I think that when his other brother got married that sister-in-law was sort of given that same 'here's how we deal with her is that we just, we don't confront her about stuff, we just put up with it.' And I think that I just don't want that very much and even if it's sort of like being part of the family hooray is sort of letting things go all the time with her. And you said, we pick our battles and I'm sitting there going, I wouldn't pick this battle. Why is nobody else listening? So I think it's just sort of a feeling of loneliness that I'm expected to not do anything or say anything.

THERAPIST: Did you ever feel that way about your dad and your family?

CLIENT: I'm not allowed to talk about my dad with my siblings.

THERAPIST: Why do you feel like, 'why am I the only one picking this battle?' [00:08:46]

CLIENT: Not really. He treated us all very differently. Well, similarly and differently in the sense that he rewarded them differently than he would reward me and I really sort of came out of that whole thing looking back on that he didn't have a favorite child, but I certainly was his least favorite. So yes, he's a trip. I just found out my brother is getting a divorce after two years of marriage which is to me the weirdest thing, not because I thought that they weren't happy together but because it's just such a fascinating story of just how their marriage is ending. But he's okay and the really funny thing is that my dad called my mom, basically leaving a message about how my brother told my dad he was getting a divorce before he told my mom. And basically saying, 'so how do you want to co-parent on this one?' And then when my mom didn't call him back on this because you don't have to co-parent when your son's getting a divorce. My dad told my sister that my mom didn't call him back and how upset he was that she didn't return his call. So sometimes I get sort of like, why is it that they don't but they want to have a relationship with them and so they get to deal with him playing them off each other and auf I'm so happy I don't have to deal with him. He's a jerk. But I mean it's also different because I did eventually because no one would say anything, and eventually I started to speak up and my mom started to speak up and my siblings found out ways of handling him if he wasn't going to be appropriate with them and I think that coming into Brian's family, everyone's already tried to do stuff and have settled into this particular way of handling her.

MALE CLIENT: I think you also have a little bit support, especially now from your mom when it comes to your dad.

CLIENT: Yeah, it helps a lot when she says, you know, to have an amicable divorce to start and now she will not talk to him unless it's in the context of things that necessitate co-parenting like she will deal with him with my sister's graduation. She didn't talk to my dad but she was civil about they had to arrange a party for him. My sister-in-law wanted both of them to arrange a party for them so they did. So she'll deal with him with stuff like that but it was sort of nice to have somebody else go I'm quitting this, too. This is stupid. I don't want to deal with him anymore. And I really wish my siblings understood that I would never, ever, subtly or overtly try to get them to drop him but it is kind of annoying that they, especially my sister, have sort of decided that we can't talk about him at all because they don't want to hear about how he mistreated us or me and they don't feel comfortable saying anything good about him around me so it's sort of off-limits. And it would probably be more upsetting on a regular basis except that (unclear) lives in Portland and we really only talk about pop culture together and my brother is still not returning my e-mails which is actually completely within character and not just his relationship with me. He doesn't e-mail anybody back, so.

MALE CLIENT: He's also going through a lot.

CLIENT: He's also getting a divorce. [00:12:48]

MALE CLIENT: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which I had to find out about from my mom because he's too scared to tell me. But he knows I know, so.

THERAPIST: Why would he be scared to tell you?

CLIENT: I don't know. She couldn't explain that. She said that he had actually told her that he was really afraid of telling me and my sister. But he did tell my sister so it's a little bit like, 'hey, Brian, you have to tell me, tool' I'm just glad I'm finding out now instead of inviting him and his soon-to-be-ex-wife to dinner next week. I really glad I didn't accidentally e-mail her and him, 'hey, can you both come?' That was close because I was going to send an e-mail.

MALE CLIENT: I know. I'm glad your mother told us.

CLIENT: And I understand why she didn't tell me over the phone. Because that's kind of a thing you have to tell people in person.

MALE CLIENT: Yeah.

CLIENT: But yeah, with Brian's family it does sort of this is what I was most afraid of which obviously nothing really happened, but when I would sort of bring up how concerned I was about his sister-in-law's treatment of me, well your dad was very, very clear well we're trying to make your first visit to Maine really wonderful one. Everyone's going to be on their best behavior. She's not going to say anything to you. Don't worry. Like, we'll make sure if she starts getting kind of like if she starts saying stuff like that we'll clear out the room. We'll get her husband to we'll deal with it. I wasn't so much worried about that as I was, what if I react to it in such a way that it sort of upsets your family? Like what if I called her out on being rude in a way that's not that it's not socially acceptable, but like you're family doesn't often call her out for being rude so I feel like I can't do it at all or I'll upset your family and you. Like I don't want to embarrass you but -

MALE CLIENT: Yeah, well we've talked about this a lot, about potentially saying something to Candace and at this point it's such a hypocritical for me that I don't [00:15:23]

CLIENT: Well, for example, there are two separate issues. The separate issue that I actually don't care about right now is whether or not you grow a beard in November. I don't care. That's a we'll deal with that. And please don't but we'll deal with that. Basically, Brian says, I think I want to grow a beard in November and I say, oh God, please don't. I don't think they're attractive and that's the month when we have our anniversary and I don't really want to do that. Like maybe another month, but please don't. And this is all open to discussion so we're surrounded by your family and they're like, oh, it won't be so bad, or you know, I like beards. You know, that kind of thing. And the way Candace reacted to it was much more beards are attractive. And you're wrong. She didn't say 'you're wrong,' but what she said was really like, if you don't like beards then this is the wrong place your opinion isn't valid because you're in the wrong boat here. And it was just really odd because it wasn't funny and it wasn't like -

MALE CLIENT: Maybe she thought she was being funny.

CLIENT: Well it came up a second time when Carl was talking about growing out his beard and both times I actually had to say something along the lines of like, look, he's not your boyfriend, or then, well, you have him if you care that like I don't think that they're attractive and I'm the one who's dating him. Because she wasn't commenting on it in the sense that like, oh I like beards or oh, I like when Carl grows one. It was like, Brian, you should grow a beard and Amber, you are incorrect for not finding it attractive. I also didn't appreciate it when she yelled at me about my frigging burger, which she overcooked after yelling at me about it. You know, it just really feels well, what it feels like is if I react in a specific way then no one's going to back me up because everyone will be just like, oh no, no, no, no, no I'm not getting into this. Do you know what I mean?

MALE CLIENT: Well I think so, but -

CLIENT: I know it's hypothetical and I know it really hasn't happened but you know, but it's the kind of thing where I don't feel safe saying anything because I'm not part of your family yet and I'm the newest person.

MALE CLIENT: Right. Well, and I think specifically in terms of that situation it's been something that we've talked about so much that I'm not sure what it would look like. In each of the specific examples I could tell you what would happen if you'd said something specific to her like I guess I'm not sure what the fear is anymore.

CLIENT: I think the fear is calling her out and having people try to having people chastise me for saying anything. Or for reacting in a way that says, this isn't okay with me. And I really do feel like the rule is that we have to stay quiet about it or risk upsetting Carl.

MALE CLIENT: Well, I think there are all kinds of measured reactions you could have to rudeness. But when she was yelling at you I was outside when she was yelling at you about the burger, but -

CLIENT: This happened in front of you guys.

MALE CLIENT: I was outside the whole time.

CLIENT: We were outside at the grill.

MALE CLIENT: I missed it.

CLIENT: I know. Everybody else did.

MALE CLIENT: But if you'd said, 'stop yelling at me.' Then I don't think anyone would have faulted you for doing that. That's a perfectly, that's a defensive reaction to someone yelling at you. Do you know what I mean? I think it's hard for me to talk about this in anything but the specific anymore. Because when it comes to the abstract it's like of course there are situations where you can react to someone being offensive or rude and there are all kinds of reactions you can have and I'm not sure what they would be or what I don't know what calling out means in anything specific.

CLIENT: It means saying something like, 'that was really rude,' or anything like that. Calling out the specific behavior as rude. Well, it's stuff like after the whole beer thing everyone was like, 'oh, just pick your battles.' Which I mean, the implication is you picked the wrong battle. And I don't think there is a correct battle to pick in the sense that anything that I deem important enough to speak up about is going to be, 'oh no, just pick your battles.'

MALE CLIENT: Well, this is maybe another situation where this has gotten kind of complicated and it's become, like it's taken on a life of its own because and we were talking about this when we were up there. There's kind of a separate problem where because you know that she's rude -

CLIENT: I know that.

MALE CLIENT: There's this confirmation bias where anything she does is rude behavior and I honestly think that the beer comment was one of those things. It was like a throw away joke.

CLIENT: It didn't feel that way to me. And what I'm worried about is exactly this, that the things that upset me and the things that I feel are important enough to warrant commenting on it are always going to end up being, 'you have to pick your battles.' You know. And that wasn't the right one to pick. And you know, sometimes it's hard to pick battles when it's stuff like she's ignoring me and you know, when it's sort of being rude by not acknowledging me. That's even more difficult to call out. And -

MALE CLIENT: So outside of the context of Candace for a minute. When we were back when Bill and Melanie came back from France and we went to the bar and had a few drinks and dinner with them and Bill started doing one of his typical political ranty things and you disagreed with him and I think you two had a kind of vehementous disagreement for a minute and I think even though it was uncomfortable for a minute it was okay by my perspective because he was saying stuff from both our viewpoints really, politically, was offensive. There are always times when it's okay and you know, pick your battles is just an expression. We can't die on a hill over everything we disagree over with whoever we're talking to. And there are definitely going to be times where if you disagree with people, friends or family of mine, I'm going to be there to support you and there are going to be times when I want the situation to be defused, but I (unclear).

CLIENT: Well, you once said to me that if any other member of your family was rude to me or was treating me the way that Candace's treating me that you would say something to them. But that it had to be any other family member. So my point is, yeah, I did feel comfortable in the moment saying something to Bill when I thought he was being inappropriate but at the same time a) you have told me that you would support me on that stuff with any other member of your family. And b) Bill, he's got his own brand of awkwardness and it's easier for me to deal with and it's easier for you to deal with, otherwise you would dislike him probably just as much as you dislike Candace. There's also a much different dynamic which is that Bill understands how serious you and I are and you're his brother and he wants to in his own Bill-way, he wants to make sure that I am comfortable being a part of the family. Candace has no such concerns because I mean, she ignores me, she is condescending to me, she is not at all interested at all in making me feel welcome. Which is funny, because she used to be. [00:25:20]

THERAPIST: Do you feel that Brian's family would choose her over you? Is that the fear? It sounds like they'll let her say anything but if you say one thing even if you're justified, you're out of there.

CLIENT: I feel more like they feel like saying something against Candace means losing Carl, their son. And so it's not so much that they would kick me out before they'd kick her out, but I think that everybody feels unsafe in terms of upsetting her in such a way that they upset Carl, whereas I think that there is less to feel upset about in terms of upsetting me. And that's a very -

MALE CLIENT: I think they'd feel very bad if they upset you though.

CLIENT: Well, I also think they'd have to try very hard to upset me, except for Bill.

MALE CLIENT: (Chuckles) Well, there are quirks.

CLIENT: Well, you know.

THERAPIST: It sounds like if they said it was rude for you to say that was rude, that would upset you. But it does sound like there are lots of ways they could upset you.

CLIENT: Well, it would upset me if I what upsets me is stuff like when I say, 'hey, here are the ways that she's being rude to me, it makes me uncomfortable being around her,' the general reaction is that that's just the way she is and people have been helpful only in the sense that they say, here's how we handle her behavior, and all of the ways are just you know, stuff like, oh well, we just try to make sure that if we spend time with them we do it in a neutral setting or at her house. Or, what I do is I don't say anything and then I vent about it. It's just sort of like here's how to deal with her without challenging her directly and I feel like in a lot of ways the family is accommodating her. I don't necessarily think it's about a thing. She is really messed up in a lot of ways and so what Brian was referring to earlier is that there are two problems with her. One is that she is really rude and generally an unkind person. And the other one is that she is just really annoying. And it can sometimes be really hard to separate the two because she's really annoying. But I mean, the annoying stuff doesn't bother me so much I mean she's not being rude if she screams because there's a mouse. And I think it's annoying that she won't watch black and white movies but it's not rude. I won't watch "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

MALE CLIENT: Really? [00:28:16]

CLIENT: But it's just that I feel like the family is much, much more concerned about making accommodations for her than they are about setting boundaries or I don't know, sort of I just feel like there is so much concern over accommodating her behavior that I'm expected to do it too, even when I don't think that's appropriate.

MALE CLIENT: Well I think the statement that was really rude is a pretty extreme one, at least. I don't know I don't think I've said it to more than a handful of people in my life.

CLIENT: Well, it's awkward.

MALE CLIENT: Yeah.

CLIENT: What else are you going to say?

MALE CLIENT: She's probably one of them. (Chuckles)

THERAPIST: Now you're talking and I'm interrupting you but as Amber's talking, what are you thinking? You look kind of deep in thought.

MALE CLIENT: I guess I'm trying to figure out why it's Candace that we're focused on. I don't think the situation is like I know it's different and it's unique because it's unique with any individual member of the family, but it seems like there are analogs for most of it all over the place. And I don't understand why Candace is always the focus.

CLIENT: Well, you want me to spend time with your family and it sort of feels like any time that we can get with Carl is time we have to get with Carl. So I think that the expectation is that we need to always make an effort to spend as much time as possible with the two of them because otherwise you're never going to see Carl.

And I would I'm just thinking, wow, I'm just relieved that she was only in Maine for two days because that was two days too many for me. I don't like spending time with her and I feel like if you're going to spend time with Carl then you have to spend time with Candace. If I don't want to spend time with you when you're with Carl because Candace's there all of a sudden I'm being petty or I'm not being like I'm not I don't like her family or something like that.

THERAPIST: You think that Brian would feel that way about you? That you're being petty?

CLIENT: I don't know. I guess so.

MALE CLIENT: No, I don't think you're being petty if you want to avoid Candace, but if I think it goes back to the first time we had this discussion. Because it depends on what that means. If it means that we're never spending a holiday together then that's one thing, but if it means that I have to find an outside place to spend with Carl, and you don't come along sometimes, then that's what it means. [00:31:42]

CLIENT: So what really frustrates me is that earlier you commented on how you didn't really like abstract stuff and I know you told me multiple times in other discussions that you don't like hypotheticals I don't see how this is any different because I'm not talking about holidays, I'm not talking about well, what if this means that what if she's still being rude to you and we want to host Christmas. Things that have not been issues because they're non-issues at this point. So my question is why is that -?

MALE CLIENT: So this Christmas she may be there if you want something more specific.

CLIENT: Okay. I don't know. I'll deal with it when I have to. What I was asking for what started this whole fight was can I please not have to be a hostess for her? If she's rude to me? It makes me uncomfortable to have somebody come into my home and be rude to me. Because I'm expected to be a good hostess. But not in the Martha Stewart kind of way but what if she comes over with Carl and she's rude again and I say, wow, that was really rude. What will you do? Or if you want to have Carl over and Candace's coming with him and I don't want to be around her and there's nowhere else for me to go? That kind of thing where it feels very I'm trapped with somebody who's rude to me and I'm expected to be nice to them in that context.

And it's uncomfortable and I don't want to have to do that. And maybe things will change, I don't know. But it really feels like you're asking me to make a huge, major accommodation to somebody who's not nice to me and I'm supposed to make it so you can have time with your brother who you're afraid to tell that you're afraid to tell him that your girlfriend is unhappy with the way his wife is treating her. You can't talk to him about that but you can tell me to -

MALE CLIENT: Well, what would you do if you said you asked me at the beginning of that what would you do if you said you're acting weird to me. And that's maybe the important question because I think in pretty much any situation like that it's not my place to get involved unless I'm solicited. You know, that becomes between you and her and I've spoken to Carl about my issues with Candace. I spoke to Candace about my issues with Candace. I don't feel like it's my place to speak to them about your issues with her. (Pause) It's not that I'm afraid to do it. It's that it's not my role and I don't see what good it does either of us for me to speak to Carl about it.

CLIENT: Well, you would be doing it for my sake, which would mean something to me. And the other thing is that you're asking me to accommodate her for your sake and for the sake of your relationship with your brother. And so I feel like you're asking me to maybe not every day, but to make accommodations, to make sacrifices in terms of my own stress levels and well-being, and when I've asked for something, well okay, but this would make it a lot easier or okay, but can we maybe have this boundary, I'm told that that's not appropriate or that's not your place. And if I called her out for being rude you say, no, no, no, I don't want to get involved, but it would be nice to have somebody say, I agree, that was rude. You know. If it is. [00:35:56]

MALE CLIENT: (Chuckles) I mean it also depends on what it is. That's a very maybe I just, maybe I'm just used to different kinds of language, but that was rude is very strong language to me.

CLIENT: But I feel like -

MALE CLIENT: That's kind of a like, record scratch, everybody stops talking moment.

CLIENT: I feel like she would have to do something like close to I'm just wondering at what point does she do something that's so socially unacceptable and so rude that you would say, oh, okay I guess we could speak up. You know.

THERAPIST: Do you feel that Brian is choosing his family over you?

CLIENT: I don't think it's as simple as that. I think he feels safer having me be upset than having his family be upset which is on one hand a good thing because it speaks to the strength of our relationship that we feel okay if we do or say something that upsets the other one that it's not going to result in a huge rift. But at the same time I do feel like it's coming at at this point there's a continuing problem and I've asked for some accommodations or some favors regarding it and I feel that's not something that we're going to compromise on.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like if Candace did not come up anymore, do you guys feel you have other issues in the relationship? In your relationship or is she the issue?

(Pause): [00:37:45 00:37:51]

MALE CLIENT: I mean if we ever have a fight again, for me it's my issue is when we have fights. They feel irresolvable and I try to avoid them so heavily that I'm worried at some point that I'm going to start just avoiding issues entirely.

CLIENT: Is that still true?

MALE CLIENT: Well, I think that's probably part of why I convinced myself I was going to call the doctor and I went to work every day for most of this week, going I have to do this so I don't have to have a fight about it. When in my head I'm going why am I taking time off? Why am I making decisions about my body based on the fear of an argument that I'm going to have later?

CLIENT: Which is why I'm glad we talked about it last night because -

MALE CLIENT: It worked out really well. So as long as we can keep doing that then I'm fine. It's when our arguments get really bad I feel like there is absolutely nothing that I can say that will make things better.

CLIENT: Is there anything else that you've been avoiding talking about?

MALE CLIENT: No. No. That was the only thing. And we had a discussion about it and it worked out well. So, maybe if more of these things happen we're supposed to talk about them. But I don't know what changed since then, necessarily. And since we don't actually have fights and since -

CLIENT: Yeah.

MALE CLIENT: I don't know if it's just the time or if -

CLIENT: Well, I think part of it is accountability which is and it sounds kind of silly, but knowing that we're going to come here and talk about things makes me at least more likely how to figure out on our own, what's been going wrong. Which isn't to say that if we stopped coming here the fights would start again, but I think it's a learning experience like okay, I don't want to have to go in and talk about a fight that I can barely remember so why don't we just try to figure this out? And I think it's worked out pretty well and I think that part of what's helped me, I think, is that you don't always talk about what you need until I've already told you what I need. If that makes any sense. Like last night you basically said, look, I'm not going to call them. Here's why. Here's why I told you I would and I'm sorry I did that, but you know.

MALE CLIENT: I convinced myself that I was going to do it.

CLIENT: But you told me what you needed and what you needed me to stop doing and start doing. You told me that and it was I think I think that really helped because for so much of our relationship it's me telling you what I need.

MALE CLIENT: But honestly, I feel like if we had this argument a month ago I would have said, here's what I need from you and you would have said, that's completely unfair and it would have turned into a fight and once it turns into a fight you know, at that point I could just relinquish everything and say, all right, I'll call the doctor tomorrow. I'll take the day off and once we get there, it doesn't matter anymore. It's still just this uncontrollable thing that never ends. But that didn't happen this time. I don't know what the difference was. I don't know what changed between when we were fighting and I think there have been some other times in between where we've had discussions and it's been fine.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:41:43]

MALE CLIENT: So it's not like this was a one-time thing. I think something changed. I just don't know what it was.

THERAPIST: And I asked that question not because I mean, Candace's deeply troubling to you and I certainly don't want to minimize that and I think there's sort of a lot (unclear) I imagine, as I've said before, as a practical matter and then what she represents or means and means for the two of you and mean about Brian's family, so I just want to sort of clarify it. I didn't ask that to say, well let's talk about something important. But I just wanted to sort of understand better how you guys are thinking about what your difficulties are.

CLIENT: Yeah, well I'm sitting there going, what do we fight about that isn't your family?

MALE CLIENT: It's mostly.

CLIENT: Well, we fight about your health sometimes. I think that's part of what happened is that I actually started making phone calls to psychiatrists for Brian and you're right, sort of with the attitude of come on, this isn't so hard. And then I did it and went, oh my God, if I actually had it on CD this would be impossible.

MALE CLIENT: Well, you basically have to take a day off from work just to make the phone calls. It's like a Kafka play.

CLIENT: Which reminds me, you have appointments tomorrow, which we can cancel if you want. But I think that that was part of it, actually making the phone calls was like, oh, this is really hard. And so that really helped and over the week that we were in Maine so I had gotten sick on the way up and we traced it back to a bad pizza that I had the night before that basically retriggered my symptoms and stupidly I had not brought enough of what I consider my emergency medication to last a whole week and we were both scared and very worried and because I couldn't get a prescription from my doctor and I couldn't afford to be treated in there so we would have had to go all the way back to Maine to get a prescription. So it was really terrifying and the two of us were able to talk about it and you know, okay this is what we might want to do this is how it's feeling today, what do you think of this plan? It was really collaborative. And so I think that because we fought about your health so much in the past, about you seeing a doctor for whatever and all that, you and we talked about this last night you stopped telling me about any health problems, if you could help it. And so we don't collaborate on your health because you don't want to talk about it because you know I'm going to get upset if you don't see a doctor.

MALE CLIENT: Well, and there's a level of collaboration. You sometimes ask for my input about your meds or whatever that you're going through. But at the end of it, it really is always your decision. You know, there have been times when you say, should I eat popcorn and I say I don't think it would be a good idea and when you make the decision to eat it, that's like -

CLIENT: That only happened twice. No, I know.

MALE CLIENT: I mean, that's your decision because that's your body. I cannot be told when I have to make phone calls to a doctor. It's just it's such a personal choice. Like there are reasons why I see a doctor more rarely. There are reasons that it's more stressful for me to make the phone calls and take off time from work. That's a decision that I have to make for me and we can talk about it and it can be I mean, obviously if my neck is hurting then that affects your life, but the collaboration has to be a discussion and not a demand as to what I have to do about it.

CLIENT: My point is I was going to say, my point is that because we've had that problem in the past, I've bossed you around about your health, I don't feel like we collaborated on your health like we collaborate on mine and I'm specific about where you would make the decision I would offer suggestions but wouldn't get upset if you didn't take them, is because you've learned not to tell me things and not to try to collaborate with me because you know that I would be bossy, and so I think I need to keep that in check so that you will tell me things so I'm not in the dark when you're not feeling well. And maybe sometimes I'll have awesome suggestions. [00:46:07]

MALE CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: I don't mean to cut you off. We're out of time for today. We don't have next week I think I mentioned, I'm not sure on Thursday evening and I think you had a conflict, too.

CLIENT: We have a bunch of stuff next week.

MALE CLIENT: Yeah, I think both Tuesday and Thursday.

CLIENT: Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday and Friday.

THERAPIST: So how would you like to leave it?

CLIENT: You have the same schedule like every night, right?

MALE CLIENT: Yeah, pretty much.

CLIENT: So when the semester starts up my schedule turns into a mess. So next week I'm only available on Monday and then -

THERAPIST: So right now the only evening time I have is this time on Thursday. There's something that may open up on Tuesday, but for right now that's what I have available.

CLIENT: Yeah. Starting in September, probably not the first week, oh no, probably the first week my schedule becomes very different and Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday I'm busy until 6 pm every night. I wouldn't be able to get here until 6:45.

THERAPIST: Okay. I don't have anything that day.

MALE CLIENT: I may have to play it by ear. I don't have -

THERAPIST: It's possible something in the morning. I don't have any early morning times now but I might I start a few days a week at 7 or 7:30. I don't know if that's something that -

CLIENT: Yeah, we can do could, you could do 7 or 7:30 most mornings.

MALE CLIENT: We could bring coffee.

CLIENT: We've got thermos now. We can bring coffee.

THERAPIST: Do you want to e-mail yeah, how would you like to leave it?

CLIENT: Why don't we I'll send you an e-mail so that you actually have like the times that were available. I will also actually e-mail I just found out that a different lecturer that's teaching the course that I have to not co-teach. I'm the teaching fellow for the course. I found out it's a new person who's teaching it. She may not need to be at lectures which would well, I'm still I'm teaching after lecture though.

MALE CLIENT: That's this time.

CLIENT: On Thursday after lecture. So that would free me up more on Tuesdays than I already am.

THERAPIST: Okay. We're going to need to stop for today so why don't you contact me and let me know. We'll try to work something out.

CLIENT: So, we'll e-mail you.

THERAPIST: Okay, that sounds good. Take care.

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