TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I'm just going to fill in the date. You need to deposit this because I've had this experience where I got carried away with the zeros so I'm not giving you $10,000. (laughs) I'm giving you $100 right now, but the ATM is likely to read it the wrong way. If you can just double check, when you put it into the ATM if that's what you do.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's what I do.

CLIENT: I've had this thing where I fed a check in and it says $160 instead of the actually $60 that it was. [00:01:05]

THERAPIST: Okay. I'll make sure. Next Monday will be the last one here.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I gave you the code, right? The code for the new building?

CLIENT: No. I don't think so.

THERAPIST: How about the address?

CLIENT: It's a single digit or something. It's the building on the corner across from the [ed] (ph?) school or something?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: What's the parking situation there? Just two hour on the street, as usual, but there's also a garage?

THERAPIST: Yeah, this garage. I'll get the details about that.

CLIENT: That's fine. We can talk about it next time.

THERAPIST: I'll check. Basically it's not the hotel garage, it's the other one. That's the one. If you were going past the hotel, instead of taking a left into the lot you'd go straight. That's the lot. [00:03:07]

CLIENT: While we're talking about this, let me just put it into Maps, then I'll actually be able to see it. (pause) [00:04:03] All right. Done. I drove down to Sandwich yesterday to teach this it's an Indian hotel hotel managers' association. Apparently, and I knew this a while ago, I was talking to somebody and they said this was the case. That's when I discovered it. When you go to parking garages in the area and maybe [all square] (ph?) as well, but it tends to be, and I forget which, the Somalians or Ethiopians tend to be the people who are sitting in the booth. [00:05:01] Home health care people or nursing aides tend to be patient. Hotel or motel operators, independents, tend to be from the same family. They're all near each other and it's like this astounding population effect, like one came over, did it, and brought more relatives. So now, nationally, a lot of these little independent places are owned by people with the last name [Patel] (sp?). There are a whole lot of other Indians in similar places on the cape and they're needing to be trained. [00:05:59] Very, very pleasant. It was very nice and I had a lot of fun teaching them, but with all that, it's my experience in the past that afterwards they're speaking periodically during the class, not really filling me in on what they're saying. I think it's distinctively an Indian character. In fact, if people speak other languages, they actually make a point of translating it for you. It's clear that I don't speak Hindi. After class they are very complimentary and one woman says, "Join us for lunch. Join us for lunch. We'd love to have you." I was thinking, "Well, that would be nice," because I enjoy Indian food as much as the next person. [00:07:01] So I wait, thinking it's very friendly. I'm also thinking it would be very rude of me to turn them down because I feel like my last experience with my friend I got into trouble because it's rude to not accept food or drink. [...] (inaudible at 00:07:20) the garage and was offering me these whisky and Cokes, whiskey and Coke; and I didn't drink much at all. These elders with their saffron turbans kept offering it to me and Ravi said, "No, you have to drink." That was a bad hangover the next day. So I thought, "I have to accept. I had a long drive back, but I'll have lunch. Then I discover six minutes later after I've already packed up and am waiting. I'm thinking, "Okay, we'll eat." In fact, they've ordered Dominoes and the Dominoes delivery was a bit delayed. (laughs) They're speaking Hindi shamelessly and I have no idea. [00:08:06]

THERAPIST: While you were waiting?

CLIENT: Yeah, while we were waiting. There was a lounge. I'm teaching in a hotel. So there's a big lounge and they're speaking and I'm standing there and I don't know how to break into a conversation because I don't know when the sentence ends, I don't know the content of the conversation and I don't want to interrupt when someone is telling about something sensitive. [00:08:34] I sort of shuffle off by myself and sit in a chair and I go to Twitter and see what's up. Finally I hear the Dominoes pizza is really going to be delayed. So, again, I'm thinking I'm going to go over to interfere in the conversation and sort of say, "Well, I think I'm going to go." So I do. [00:08:59] I finally an opportunity where there was a pause of two seconds and I say, "Well, I think I'm going to head off. Thank you for the invite." Dev is like, "No, no, no. Five minutes. Five minutes. It will be here in five minutes." I said, "Okay. Five minutes." And, seriously, the pizza just sort of appeared. I didn't see it come in. Dev says, "Pizza. Pizza. Pizza." So we all go in and, as I sort of expected, it's just the men. Who knows where the women were. They were off by themselves, I'm sure, eating. It's just the men. It was two medium-sized pizzas for eight of us. It felt like just enough. It wasn't decadent, right? (both laugh) There's the jalapeno and there's the cheese. I'm trying to be polite and so Devpasses out the plastic plates and then offers jalapeno pizza? Cheese pizza? I take a jalapeno. [00:10:11] Everyone is sitting there with a single slice. But immediately after I eat my slice of pizza brp, brp, brp, brp; Hindi, Hindi, Hindi. Well, that's kind of the way it is. So I ate my pizza feeling like I can't stay. I haven't learned Hindi yet. Here we are, in 15 minutes I've not yet learned. So I sat there and I finally thought I had to tell some sort of amusing story to snap them out of their Hindi because I don't want to be on the periphery here. So I tell them the story about the whisky and coke at this Punjabi wedding and me passing out on the golf course with this big, saffron turban and they thought that was funny. [00:11:06] They all laughed. Then they went back to Hindi. So I had a slice of pizza and I thought it was interesting that it mattered so much that I stay and have lunch with them. I tried to get out of it and no, no, no. (laughs) But yet, they're just speaking Hindi, so I thought it was very interesting. There's something very kind about it, really, really keen to have me there and not having the wherewithal to realize that, at least of the men, they should speak English because they do. (chuckles) They do speak English. In fact, you could say that English is their other first language. [00:12:05] It doesn't take effort for them to speak English. I found it curious and I was sort of charmed by the idea of whatever the scene was and them just sort of being comfortable and wanting me to be there.

THERAPIST: So there was a real mix of inclusion/exclusion?

CLIENT: Yes. I don't think they were doing it to be rude, I just think they're not thinking. And so then Nala had gone across the street, somewhere across the street, and she was going to get drinks. She came back and she had two liter bottles of Sprite. I don't drink sugary drinks, but I figured if they were Dominoes pizza, I guess Sprite is consistent with that. [00:13:03] Dev gets the Styrofoam cups and he lines them up and he's about to pour the Sprite and he says, "Drink?" I said, "Maybe I'll have some water." He looked and I could tell he was wounded and puzzled at the same time. I felt like he wanted to say to me, "But we have pizza and she got Sprite and Sprite is good. Who doesn't want Sprite?" (laughs) He went and got the key and opened up the machine and pulled out a bottle of water so we didn't have to put in four quarters. I drank the water. Then, again, Hindi, Hindi, Hindi. I said, "Well, goodbye everybody. Thank you." Very nice, the whole event, but it is funny that they are like that. [00:13:59] And they're very complimentary so, again, it's always like... Nala pulled me aside and she said, "I don't know how to tell Martin this. Martin always comes and teaches us but now we really want you to come because you're so much better." I said, "Thank you for saying that and you can tell Martin, certainly, that I did a good job. And if you want to request me, that's fine." You know, they're trying to imply that... I did feel awkward about that because I'm not competing for it and I don't want Martin feeling badly, but it happens a lot. [00:14:54]

THERAPIST: Yeah, they preferred you to Martin, huh?

CLIENT: Without question.

THERAPIST: What about that?

CLIENT: I don't know. I feel like it's the way that I teach. Clearly. I always make sure to have the projector on, which it has two images of hearts, so I've a cut away so you can see the two atriums and the two ventricles from an outside perspective. You can see the actual shape of the heart and the musculature. I feel like that is so helpful and they actually said it's helpful. It's so helpful to be able to have an image of the heart and be told exactly how the heart works while doing CPR so they can really be thinking about what's actually happening. People can ask questions. I feel like I try to elevate it so people feel respected that I take my time and I answer questions and that it is sort of like a two-hour science class. [00:16:09]

THERAPIST: Yeah, and you designed those, right?

CLIENT: It's the same. It's the same PowerPoint. That's what the company uses. I modified it slightly because some of it, I felt, sort of implies that we're perhaps a little [...] (inaudible at 00:16:34) or a little flippant or a little [...]. I wouldn't use the slideshow at all, but I have to show some deference to the fact that it is the company's slide show; but I have modified it a bit. So if Martin ever shows up, he looks in and he sees them looking at the PowerPoint. [00:17:03] Like for the presentations I've seen before, because there are two other teachers, for the AD, pad here, pad here no explanation as to why the pad has to be here and here. It's a natural question. Why doesn't this work? Somehow I feel like people would really learn. Okay, that's why, if you explain the electrical nature of the heart and we are, in fact, entirely electrical. That's why we can get electrical. Here's the wire. It's talking about voltage, voltage across some membranes. I feel like people can deal with that. They might not fully understand ions, but you can talk about positive and negative and the fact that it matters. [00:18:03] People feel respected for that. He treats us seriously.

THERAPIST: I was just thinking that we've talked about how people teach, that often a style can either be kind of inclusive or exclusive. You definitely have a more inclusive kind of style as opposed to the exclusive kinds of styles that you've come across and end up making people feel not smart enough to understand it or whatever. (pause) [00:19:15]

CLIENT: So in the background to this, there is the math, right? I'm so happy to be it takes effort. It does take effort to be thinking this slow, but it is the foundations of math, as I said the last time. The first axiom in all of math is the [00:19:41] set. With nothing else in it, I can define that, but let's just say there's a space. We have things in it, perhaps, such as other sets. Since that's the only thing we know of, let there be a set. Maybe sets are inside. Sure, because we don't have numbers. [00:20:05] In fact, what I'm doing now is this philosophy of mathematics and I feel like I really like this very much because it's computational in some sense because one can choose to use numbers if one wants, but it's extraordinarily abstract and it seems really honest because the idea of "plus;" the only operator for natural numbers. So zero on with no negatives, is plus, and it has to be defined. Sudden axioms and you create all of the math with natural numbers and then you can sort of say, "What if we want to have integers? What if we want to have negative numbers?" you can use that system with one more definition to do it. [00:21:20] I find it phenomenal because it doesn't presume anything and it's truly just building math from scratch. Before I came here I went to some extreme because we're going to Ethan's tomorrow for Thanksgiving so I bought some green beans tonight and I'll make this green-bean thing. I read the first three pages of this math book and I like it so much, just really dealing with the idea of just the fundamentals before anything. [00:22:13] I guess I've been wondering about that, just life in general. Given the math itself it always feels as if something has been presumed. Something is presumed. If you want to do calculus, you'd better be really good at algebra and trigonometry. You just sort of jump in and you fill in the gaps and you remember the trigonometric identities. They're not easily rememberable, and so when you do integration, you have to be able to deal with them and so you have to know algebra well. To do algebra you have to know arithmetic. Okay. But, again, you're always sort of leaping in and you never really know if you know everything previously. [00:23:06] In fact, I don't, so it's always filling in the gaps. To go back to the absolute beginning and anyway. I was talking to a friend last week about this. He was really trying to figure this stuff out, so I went over it and talked to him about it. [...] (inaudible at 00:23:32) out loud just sort of saying "the axiom one," "axiom two," "axiom three," I thought we didn't really do any of the problem sets, which are sort of built on it, and doing the proofs. I really wanted to just discuss this idea. I don't know why I'm so transfixed by it. . I really wanted to just discuss this idea. I don't know why I'm so transfixed by it. [00:24:03] It feels right to me, but I guess communicating it to you it might sort of seem like "it's a mathematical axiom and, okay, there's a set." Then move on to axiom two. Two sets are equal if the things inside of them are the same. I find it phenomenal, I find it absolutely amazing and I expressed this last time that you can start out with this idea that there is just a space, and then from that, just assumption, which can't be verified in the external world. It's just sort of this initial construct. There is a space. You can put other spaces inside of this space and you can list out, if you actually want to write out a number, so just three, you don't have to write the digit three, what you write is the set containing an empty set and a set containing a new set and then another set, and then what you have is a set that contains three elements, the third element of which is just brackets inside of brackets inside of brackets. And there is nothing. It's just brackets, brackets, brackets, brackets; and you count them up and it's just empty, totally empty. We say, "Based on pattern 0, 1, 2, 3, if you want to write out the number 17, that's going to require more paper because it's just bracket, bracket, bracket, bracket." (pause) [00:25:50] Anyhow, there is this idea of an inductive set, so the notion of if you have zero then you can have the successor to zero and, since you can do that, you can have the successor to one, which would be two. If you have two, you can have the successor to that. You just keep doing that, so it's inductive. As long as you define the notion of "you can have one more," all of a sudden you have infinitely many things because all you need is one more and that's it. You've got it. You've got infinity. That's the seventh axiom. Start with nothing and you've got infinity six axioms later. [00:26:52]

THERAPIST: What about it's significance?

CLIENT: I don't know. Yesterday I'm teaching and I have that book because I got there early and I was reading this book. One hundred years of really trying to think about what's essential and really it's active today after 100 years, but it really got distilled and distilled. There's this guy named Zermelo and a guy named Fraenkel, so it's called the Zermelo-Fraenkel axiomatic set theory.

THERAPIST: Where are they from?

CLIENT: I don't know. I think Zermelo is Italian. I don't know about Fraenkel, but it sounds German or Austrian.

THERAPIST: This is how long ago?

CLIENT: Over 100 years of active thinking about it. When it was formalized I'm not sure, but within the past 100 years.

THERAPIST: Within the past 100 years. Hmm. [00:28:00]

CLIENT: But it goes back to the other big names in this are, Cantor, a mathematician who really wrestled with the notion and came up with proofs saying that there are different levels of infinity. Some infinities are greater than others, meaning natural numbers are infinite, but you can count them; whereas real numbers aren't finite, but they are uncountable and there is proof that they're uncountable. And so it's, therefore, larger. The numbers between zero and one are larger than the infinite numbers of natural numbers. If you were to just count one, two, three, four, five, six, seven; you could subdivide zero/one many times and you could count just count, count, count. You can't count. You could always make it with an irrational number. [00:29:09] So there is Cantor and I remember this phrase. I wrote it at the top of my problem set, I was so charmed by it. He said, "The thing about sets is that they are a many that allow themselves to be thought of as a one." They are many that allow themselves to be thought of as one.

THERAPIST: Because the many falls under one set.

CLIENT: Exactly, which is just a nice turn of phrase. It's just taking collections of things, which is a natural thing to do in life. You take two suitcases to the airport and inside the suitcases are little containers of things, but essentially it's two suitcases. [00:30:10] They go into one trunk of a car, right? (pause) The other idea that is necessary, and I guess these are all rather new and I guess it takes a certain level of math background to be ready to accept these things, but I feel like it's so fundamental. Like I said last time, in the [...] (inaudible at 00:31:08), as I told you, as a little kid it felt and maybe this is retrospection to some degree but I've been sort of projecting my sort of current state back onto that, but I feel like that is the source of that. Counting things seems to sort of overvalue a single characteristic, right? I mean in this room, there are two chairs, but you have to look and notice the essential characteristic of "chairness" in order to determine, "Oh, yeah. There are two chairs." But for a person who doesn't know about chairs, this can be sat upon, as can that, as can that. [00:32:07] It's not just "sittableness" that defines it, and as a little kid it's sort of like everyone knows this. That's not a chair, that's not a chair. That's the chair and that's the chair; so one, two. There seems to be a defining of things that seems arbitrary and it implies somehow this aprior knowledge of "chairness." And as a kid I'm not sure how much is really apriority, and so it is an affront at some level to learn math and grammar because it implies that everyone knows that. I guess maybe by disposition I'm just a little less fixed in my notion of things and so I guess I didn't like the rules. [00:33:14]

THERAPIST: I think that's right. I think that's right. Or you had a certain kind of openness. There was a little bit more fluidity, as opposed to looking at these things as concrete, apriority things that you have to know, a bunch of them the days of the week on the calendar.

CLIENT: And this notion, too, going back to this idea of sets, it's just fundamental notions. Let's just agree that there is a space and we don't have to believe that that matches physical reality. If we choose to think of it in those terms, that's okay, but all we really need is a space. We can populate that space, not actively but we can say if a space happens to have other such things and another set, another space happens to have a certain number of those things as well, then the only inherent characteristic of sets is the notion of membership. If you want to use numbers and say that set A has one, two, three in it and set B has one, two, three in it, then set A equals set B. You don't have to call it A or B. It doesn't matter, it's just that they have the same things, and that's the defining characteristic. They each contain one, two and three; but that's too specific because we don't need numbers. [00:35:10] A set contains cat, dog, goat; the other set cat, dog, goat. Or we don't' know what it is. If they have similar sets containing balloons, all we have are sets and we can choose to call them things using our language. It really speaks to the idea fundamentally that, yes, we can count. Yes, we can observe objects in the real world and enumerate them. That's a fine and useful thing to do so I'm not disputing that, but there is a certain un-obvious quality as to its importance. [00:36:10] As a little kid, I'm not sure it mattered to me that things be counted. It mattered in, perhaps, a way that things be divided evenly. If there are eight things, you can have four and I'll have four; so equitability. But if there were ten, then five and five. It doesn't matter, let's just make things fair. There is the issue of if you have an odd number, that raises an issue. If you have eleven things it doesn't matter that it's eleven. If it's nine, that's a problem. If it's seven, that's a problem. [00:37:11] In school, what do you do? You sing songs like Ten Little Indians and you do little things in workbooks and you count apples and baskets and these little things that don't matter. It felt foreign thinking that in real life I don't count apples. All of a sudden, even the examples themselves are these foreign things that seem to convey a truth that isn't mine. I don't count apples. If I want an apple, I go get an apple. If there are apples on the counter, between five and six it's asking a child to be more abstract than they wish to be perhaps, or abstract in a way they don't want to be abstract, or maybe concrete in a way that's not maybe that's a better way to put it concrete in a way that is not concrete, in a real way; therefore it seems a bit foreign, counting oranges, counting apples. (pause) I don't know. The images, I guess, as a kid, like spots on my cat, Snoopy, that seems probably interesting. [00:39:07] So if I brought my cat, Snoopy, to class and we counted the spots on Snoopy, that would feel legitimate because it would be a real cat, not pictures of apples that maybe weren't the brand of apples that we get. Although I like Collets now, maybe they were pictures of Collets in the book and we had Red Delicious on the counter so I was like, "Those aren't apples." So this notion of sets strips away the veneer of even operations. We don't even need "plus." If we want plus, we can define it; and if we have plus, we can then define. [00:40:10] We can just come up with, based on that definition, we can come up with multiplication. We don't need an axiom for multiplication. We can just invent multiplication from addition as long as you have the idea that there is something as a successor, right? If you have a number you can make one more. If you have two you can get three. Through these fundamental ideas that are very basic notions, you can do all of this amazing stuff. I'm aware of the fact that it's analogous to computer programming, how computers are built. I'm aware of that fact, but that doesn't interest me. It's the ideas themselves. [00:41:02]

THERAPIST: It seems somehow an existential issue. I was thinking about there being something about the fact that, maybe to put it in a way that I was thinking about it, the idea of these axioms and sets and all of this really brings home the idea that this was all constructed. These were constructions. These are things to categorize or organize some sort of experience in some way as opposed to something that another way these concepts were introduced to you. They were something that you were already supposed to know and some sort of almost the ideas of the blank slate or not having a blank slate. [00:42:02]

CLIENT: That's what we were talking about, the blank slate [...] (inaudible at 00:42:02). Look at, too, this book that I often refer to because it was so vexing to me, it's object relations right there the notion of objects, be they mental constructs or images or traits or however you wish to think about these psychological phenomenon. I feel clarified in that reducing sense, in that cooking sense, of clarification of clarifying butter, slowly cooking it to let the water evaporate, which means the very process of that is a distillation of sorts and it is a slow process; as opposed to clarification as someone who is clarifying an idea for and removing some confusion because of some re-defining or external modification of sorts. [00:43:52] It's sort of like I have been slow-cooking this butter and slowly the water has been evaporating. I think now about this very elemental notion of things and these very profound proofs, just using mathematical logic and the idea of it either exists or it doesn't. It's binary; nothing in between. That's the beauty of mathematics. In theory, if it exists, it can be considered and further defined; and so I look at books like that what was that book I saw over there it just caught my eye. Useful tools? Useful Servants. [00:45:03] I have no idea what that book is about, but just the title itself, this notion of have something which is, you can get as a touchstone of sorts that is truly fundamental, just this notion of just a space, it's sort of like that's point zero. That is the beginning. I feel like if I continue to think about this stuff and think about that's another thing that I haven't talked about these equivalent relations, just how things just relate to each other. They may be equal. They may not be equal. If they are equal, then they have certain characteristics. There are all kinds of relations in the world. Typically in math we say "this equals that." Well that's just an instance. That's just an instance of some sort of comparison. [00:46:10] There are numerous comparisons and many comparisons are just sort of arbitrary. To be able to identify them as such is useful. You say, "Okay, sure. We can just make an arbitrary rule." I feel like, armed with that, I could actually begin the process over, meaning I could actually revisit things that were so overwhelming to me at 18, 19, 20, or before. I could, with that reference of just a space, this fundamental notion that at the beginning of mathematical logic, always be able to refer to that and then read the cards and really think thoughtfully about that and not feel burdened by having to write a paper on this because I'm taking Philosophy 101. [00:47:41] I could really consider what was really going on and think, "Well, I have the advantage of the math bit, not only because we use this notion of pairing these ordered pairs, but so much meaning has been given to that and so much careful thought has been developed since Descartes." We should talk about that, just that philosophy. Read philosophy. Read Kant. Read texts in psychoanalysis without feeling overwhelmed by it because I feel like I have a way to organize these things because I can look at it through the lens of this fundamental logic and metaphors and analogies that that gives. I feel like I'm going on about it, but it feels indelible. It feels like whatever this is that I'm reading is, while difficult, it recaps this. [00:49:21]

THERAPIST: I was thinking, too, about how it reminds me of you talking about feeling as if people have to kind of leg-up on you because they had some way of knowing other languages or something how could you be a great writer without knowing a lot of languages already or being exposed in a lot of ways. It seems like you're talking about a different point of departure. I get what you're saying and it's funny you point to Useful Servants, because I think the title comes from the idea that you're not beholden to any of those things. They're not truths in and of themselves. They're probing into something. Just like everything else, they're trying to define something. In their own different lexicons it's about six or seven different psycho-analytical theories, different ways of looking at experiences. [00:50:35] It implies, though, that one shouldn't be beholden to any one because there is no truth. There is no capital "T" truth in any of them. They're establishing different ideas and languages and hey, does this help you or not? I don't know if that points to what you were getting at. That's how I was hearing it. You were saying it in some way.

CLIENT: When I was doing all of this sort of searching in an academic sense, I was simultaneously avoiding science and math as if they were quite separate from each other. Especially in Frankfort school, right? The old notion of this very resistance to contemporary science in terms of it being this positive [...] (inaudible at 00:51:51) of things; and so I thought, "Well, it's perfectly fine. It's justifiable. I don't need to do science and math." But now, I'm on the other side of it. In fact, I have done that and I think I can be sensible in carefully beginning to look there because I feel I'm not fighting against well, I guess I'm fighting against math all of the time but I'm not intimidated by it. [00:52:37] I like this idea of becoming very clear in these really deep ideas, which I'm feeling a little [...] (inaudible at 00:53:03). It is a different kind of departure, a different lens. It is a lens that has some grounding because to think about it mathematically, there is a sense of it being entirely justifiable. That's the thing. You can prove things to yourself and it is in the realms of logic, it's irrefutable as opposed to it being this endless, terrifying, backwards sort of vortex where it just goes back and back and back and back; and it's hard to see where the beginning is. [00:53:50] You read enough Freud and you find you really need to go back and read all the Greeks and then Shakespeare and then this notion of these myths and these deep, abiding human emotions and he organized these ideas and renamed things. I'm simplifying. It's not like he invented the notion of psyche.

THERAPIST: One's libido or [...] (inaudible at 00:54:33). Well, listen, have a good Thanksgiving.

CLIENT: Yeah, you, too.

THERAPIST: You're going to Ethan's?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's the first time I won't be cooking. They so enjoy the cooking. I was feeling it was liberating. I'll just take one thing and Barb and I will go over and there won't be leftovers, which is weird. It's probably a very healthy thing to not have leftovers because it removes temptation. It's like the next day arrives and it's like oops Thanksgiving is over. (both chuckle) Let's just eat very good food.

THERAPIST: All right. See you Monday.

CLIENT: [...] (inaudible at [0:56:00]) that picture evokes so much, and yet in math it's simple. I mean it evokes a lot, but what it evokes stems from something which is irrefutable. It's not open to interpretation.

THERAPIST: Some ground, some solid ground or something.

CLIENT: Right. And I know I'm just at the very beginning place in math, but I know enough.

THERAPIST: That's what you're looking for, I guess.

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