TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Took his fan with him!

THERAPIST: What’s that?

CLIENT: Took his fan! (laughs)

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah. It was sitting funny, I think. It’s tight.

CLIENT: Yeah, occupational hazard, I guess, because I mean, what else... I mean, what can you do? It’s not like you can lie down or stand up, I guess. I mean it’s...

THERAPIST: Try to walk a lot. (client affirms) I try to get up between, you know... If I have a break for ten minutes, I’ll go walk somewhere. (client affirms) All those studies, like are talking about that, you know, how much you sit.

CLIENT: Exactly, yes, yes, yes. That’s it, yes, yes, yes. (pause) Try to have like... I need some sort, there must be like, some sort of like, app for this, right? To have it just perpetually go off every ten minutes, right? So you’re sitting and it’s like “Get up and walk!” (therapist chuckles) Like, I try to make a point of it. [00:01:23]

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: I haven’t had, I do try to make a point of it, right? But still, it’s like, you know, 40 minutes drag by and it’s like, “Oh. Stand up.”

THERAPIST: Yeah, and it is that. It’s supposed to be that much, right? You’re not supposed to sit for very long in one place, for two (client affirms), three minutes.

CLIENT: With all the belly fat and... Yeah, it’s pretty good. It’s dire, isn’t it? I mean, they have these things that like, just sort of like minutes, sitting in your... minutes in (inaudible) eventually, I guess, given that (inaudible). (inaudible) had another guy’s (inaudible) you know, both, I think the kitchen (ph) is what the java/job of (ph) programming and rudimentary (ph) calculus, and the entire (inaudible) just standing. [00:02:09]

THERAPIST: I remember that, yeah.

CLIENT: And so now, you know, recently, I sit and I study, but... It’s like, well, it worked then. Well, what is standing, right? The downside is like, your knees hurt. You know, standing up. (therapist responds)

So today, I’ve been up... I’m doing various things. I’ve been studying and doing various things, but also the past few hours up on top of a 16-foot ladder, just spackling, spackling, spackling, spackling, spackling, spackling, right? Because it’s plaster, it’s not drywall, the house. So at the corner, right, where two walls meet, the drywall, it’s taped, right? So, there is no separation. Whereas with plaster, you know, when houses were built, in the 1920s, they didn’t tape (and I’m not even sure they had tape). So what happens over time is, there is just this hairline crack that goes all the way down. The plaster is unforgiving, because it crumbles, right, unlike drywall. Like, you can’t nail anything to plaster; it just crumbles, which is why you have picture frame moulding all the way around, so that’s how you hang pictures, right? You don’t nail anything. Make sure you hang it from the ceiling. [00:03:38]

THERAPIST: Ohhhh.

CLIENT: So anyway, going up the stairs to the second floor, there is the room that’s above the stairs. So you have the stairs, then you’ve got nine feet, essentially, of the wall of that room above you, right? So that has to all be... So you go upstairs and what you leave behind you, right, and so right inside (ph), you have the walls of that room. So you have to put the ladder on the stairs to climb up to the ceiling, which is essentially, you know, the height of the ceiling of the room of the second floor. It’s enjoyable. [00:04:18]

And I, it’s been a process of taking down wall paper, sanding everything, and then spackling, and now I’ll... Once I get done with that, have at the ladder (ph), doing all the spackling, then I can sand, and then put the primer coat. So taping, taping, taping, right? Getting that, I got the contractor’s special right? Like six bundles of that blue tape? Just tape, tape, tape. So that was a six-hour project at home, taping up eight doors and two windows. It’s all-wood frame, right? So, it’s... you know, it’s ornate, right? So every window, it’s eight more corners (sound of ch, ch, ch, ch).

THERAPIST: Oh, is that where (inaudible)/blocked.

CLIENT: And you have your doorframe, you know, it’s all ornate. So you have to, you know, press it in, press it in, press it in., press it in.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah. So you have to, what, take off the strips like that long, or something? Or... Or is it a long (inaudible)/blocked. [00:05:17]

CLIENT: Yeah, so you can have a longer strip, but you just have to, you know, press it in, you have a little ruler and (makes clicking sound)... which is fine. I mean, I, it’s sort of, I enjoy that sort of perfectionist work.

THERAPIST: Yeah, very detailed, uh-huh.

CLIENT: I keep telling myself, it’s like, well, you know like, it takes a very long time to get this right. (therapist affirms) Doing all the taping, doing all the two coats of spackle, and sand, and... You know, you just do it once, because once you put the paint up, it either looks right or it doesn’t, right? Of course, there are cracks, you know, in the walls, and so it’s a matter of spackling it. If you just spackle that crack, then it sort of, it’s bound (ph), right? So then you have to (therapist affirms), right? So you end up spending like, you know, two feet on either side, just making a very gradual, but just sort of a layering process. So you do the crack, you build up around it, let it dry, come back the next day, sand it, do it again... So it makes it invisible.

THERAPIST: Yeah, right. And you don’t want to take too much away, because then you’ll have like a little indent, is that right? [00:06:23]

CLIENT: That’s right. And then you get into the ceiling, right? The ceiling is, well, from the stairs all the way up, right? So it’s... 15 feet, I guess? Maybe more. You know, it’s a matter of having this little tool, right? Then I have to resort to the fingers, right? But, you know you get it. The spackling, you just sort of run down the seam, then you have to sort of smooth it out to get rid of that hairline crack. (pause) So, it’s enjoyable doing this, and yet the big question is, “What color,” right? Or colors. So it’s like, I want cream, slightly, slightly yellow, but I want two tones, right? So I want the entryway to be darker, and then once the staircase begins, that wall that goes all the way up, have the lighter shade of it to give it depth. [00:07:27]

THERAPIST: So it works, you’re going up the stair, what, from the first floor up to the second?

CLIENT: Yeah. So, you head, you walk in the front door (therapist affirms) and then there is that, the entryway. So stairs off to your left, and then off to the right is the entryway into the living room. (therapist affirms) Then straight ahead, you pass through a little area to get to the kitchen. (therapist affirms) So the entryway has... Well, in a small triangular wall from the staircase, so four walls, but really three. So I want the entryway to be a little darker (therapist affirms), like a sort of a, like a slightly deeper cream color. Then the wall that goes up the stair, all the way up, and then the second floor landing must be a little lighter.

THERAPIST: And it’s just the wall on the left; it’s more open on the right? Stairs? [00:08:23]

CLIENT: Yes. So it’s, the stairs go up, up, and then bend, so it’s just that jit (ph) in the wall, that giant wall that is two floors high, that goes up around. (therapist affirms) And then, of course, on the stairs on, there is that little triangular area. (therapist affirms)

Anyway, so you know, I have all these paint cards that I got at Home Depot. So Barbara and I... And of course, they have all these ludicrous names, right? They have to come up with a name for all these paints. So we’re sitting there, of course, different times of day, we’re looking at them. My experience has been that... like, it looks nice, but it feels like, “Oh, that’s the dark color.” When you put it up, it’s a lot darker, really. So, it’s like, you want shades of lightness. Anyway. But you don’t know. So want to buy little sample pots and, you know, paint and see what it’s like... Then Barbara wants the living room to be (or she’s been floating this around), like greys and navy blue, like grey walls and this very dramatic like white and grey and navy blue. [00:09:34]

THERAPIST: Oh, really? Darker?

CLIENT: Which I... Yeah. So, a lot of grey, but then the navy blue highlights, and maybe one accent wall that’s just navy blue. And she wants to get a white couch. (chuckles) Which sounds great, but... I wasn’t going to say anything. It may be grey. White, white, like you just try wearing a white shirt all day long, see what happens. (therapist chuckles) Go out to dinner wearing a white shirt! (client laughs)

THERAPIST: You’re asking for it!

CLIENT: (laughs) Anyway. So, but then the question is like, “Well, you have your sort of creams in the entryway, but then how do you transition to greys?” So I’m thinking, well, there are warm greys. So trying to size that up. Like okay, if we want to do that, we don’t have that quite, how does that work? I don’t know, which is fine. But... It’s a fun process. [00:10:33]

THERAPIST: What, the actual... the painting or the picking out of stuff?

CLIENT: Oh, oh. Well, yeah. I mean, picking out of the colors, that’s fun to think about. But no, actually doing the work (therapist responds), actually doing the prep work. Right. So it’s very satisfying. (therapist affirms) So I’m not in a hurry.

(pause) I was talking to Ethan. You know, Ethan is, you know, this construction guy. I was talking about like, you know, doing all this spackling. “Eh, just go paint it! Eh, that’s good enough!” That’s not what he said, but essentially, it’s like, but you know, he goes, “You know, you don’t necessarily need to prime, just put color up.” I mean, his house looks great! And he did all the work. I mean, it really looks fantastic. It’s like, “Eh!” [00:11:29]

Don’t know! It pays off, right? Just be very patient, just... Just do it right. Do all the prep work. The easy part is putting the paint up. Anyway. And it’s going to last, right? I mean, once you put the paint up, I don’t just pay (ph) changing it for a month.

(pause) The wallpaper she had... I cut off a piece... (pause, while client retrieves) All this went in the trash, and then I went out to the trash and I thought, “Uh-oh, I’d better collect a piece.” So this is the wallpaper that was entryway, stair, second floor landing, everywhere. So you look at a small piece of it, it’s... It’s quality paper, it’s sort of linen fiber; and yet Barbara just could not stand it. I was watching this period piece, this English film, and it was this house, and I looked, I thought, “That’s the wallpaper! That’s the wallpaper!” (laughs) (therapist responds) Anyway. So I didn’t mind it, but... And all the wallpaper she has is... it’s quality stuff, it’s just dated. [00:12:47]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. It’s just probably (blocked)

CLIENT: Right, that seems dingy to her. (therapist affirms) Anyway. So what would happen is the paper, you know, would come off relatively easily. So she had this thing. And I found it like, funny with her. It’s, I was of the... I guess I’m sort of thinking, well, you know, you don’t like the carpet. So that’s going to come up. We’ve already ripped up a little bit of it to see, to verify that, in fact, that there are good hardwood floors underneath the carpet. But it’s the sort of sherbet-y green color, this thick shag. It’s funny how like, for me, I’ve just sort of tolerated it. I think, “Oh, yeah, it’s a good carpet and yeah, it will come up eventually.” But like, it distresses Barbara. Like, that wallpaper distressed her! The carpet distresses her! The basement, which is, very well painted, but it’s green going down, the staircase to the basement, distresses her. She just (chuckles), it’s weird how she just feels this stuff. Anyway, so... [00:13:52]

THERAPIST: (inaudible) girl!

CLIENT: Yeah, it really is! And so... (aside, “Oh, thanks.” Sound of shifting furniture) (pause) So this stuff, right? So it’s coming up relatively easily. So, as you’re walking up the stairs, right, there are seams, and then she would just sort of pull at it. It wouldn’t have been that difficult just to like, take off a lot of it; but she’d like, peel off a foot of it. Like, I always hear this like (makes tearing sound). I climbed up the stairs, you know, going from here to there (makes tearing sound), going downstairs (makes tearing sound). So it got to the point where we had these, and the entryway, and up the stairs, just these long segments (I don’t know, four feet long perhaps), just hanging off the walls, just hanging in these odd... They’re just like parchment. (therapist affirms) So I thought, you know, if anybody comes to the door and sort of looks, they’re going to think, “What sort of weird gothic place is this, where things are just hanging off the walls, and these weird like, gauze rags? [00:15:00]

THERAPIST: Because what, you were doing it like piecemeal at that point?

CLIENT: Well, she was just... Yeah, well she was just, yeah, exactly, just sort of ripping randomly, and I got into it as well. (therapist affirms) Whereas, I’m of the idea it’s like, do you keep it as nice as can be? Then once you start to do it, you have to do it. (therapist affirms) Yeah, anyway, that was my sense of it.

THERAPIST: But she was like, yeah, it’s already off...

CLIENT: But she’s always like picking, picking, picking. (therapist affirms) Anyway...

THERAPIST: (pause) Yeah, well, it’s because you guys are kind of, with this place, you’re definitely kind of collaborating.

CLIENT: Well, yeah, that’s it. That is it. And she... Well, I have much more experience doing this sort of stuff. (pause) Anyway.

THERAPIST: What, what do you mean? [00:16:00]

CLIENT: Well, just in terms of like, picking colors and like, her liking sort of these darker, it’s like, well that’s... I want to sort of say it, I mean I do, I say, “You think that’s light. You think that’s a light color, but when you put all of that on a wall that’s not well lit, it’s going to be dark.” (therapist affirms) So you can’t go light enough. And then I was telling her just like, “You have to go to the Benjamin Moore store.” I mean, we have these color chips from Home Depot, that’s fine. But when we actually get the paint, we’re going to Benjamin Moore store. We’re getting Benjamin Moore paint. We’re not getting their paint, we’re getting Benjamin Moore. “Oh, whatever; theirs is good.” I’m like, “No.” Yeah, for, I mean... a bit. But, no. You have to get Benjamin Moore. So, anyway, I had this...

THERAPIST: Do you spend more on it, then?

CLIENT: Yes, you spend more, but it’s either that, or you don’t paint.

THERAPIST: Right, yeah. Yeah, I was thinking that’s kind of like her, how comfortable she’d be, being kind of deferential, and how comfortable you’d be in asking her to be somewhat deferential. (client affirms) It’s a weird experience and, where your expertise (sighs)... [00:17:12]

CLIENT: Yeah. I was trying to explain to her, too, just like... Home Depot, you can buy some things there. You know, it’s fine. But when you buy certain things... There is a reason Home Depot is cheaper. So you’re getting name brands, Home Depot sets a price. So it’s like, you know, if you want to buy a power drill, and you want to get, for it to be Stanley or Makita or DeWalt or whatever, you don’t get it from Home Depot. Because it’s the same make, same serial numbers and everything, but if you buy it from Home Depot, because they have to get it at a certain price point, you know, the motor might be made of plastic parts. So you go to a proper hardware store, and you pay a bit more, but you get all metal parts, same case, right? Which is the reason (inaudible) is cheaper at Home Depot. [00:18:12]

THERAPIST: Yeah, how does she take to that? You know, these kind of...

CLIENT: Yeah. I think well enough, although, I think she... I don’t know. I mean, I feel like it’s fine. I mean, she’s fine, she’s fine with it. But I feel like she’s sort of not feeling convinced that Benjamin Moore is preferable.

THERAPIST: I see, uh-huh. Yeah. I was thinking, I wondered like is she, she’s more likely to believe it or believe in it if she’s discovered it on her own? If she’s come up with, yeah, she’s had her own experience with it. (client affirms) (pause) [00:19:24]

CLIENT: I’ve been looking at probability lately, because that’s my... Like, it’s hard to shut off my math brain, right? It’s always that transition after a class; like, what do I do? So last time, right? I came in, I had that Four Pillars of Geometry. So now, I have zero interest in geometry. I was thinking that might be something good; now, it’s like, “Eh.” College Probability, that’s what I want to do.

So, but it’s hard, right? And so, I thought, “Well, I’ll look at,” you know, get books on Probability. And it’s a class, right? There is a class where it’s, first semester is Probability, second semester is Inference, and it’s, then we’re going into Econometrics or Computational Biology. So you’ve got a, it’s a year-long Probability. So, I thought, “Well, all right, I’ll look at the syllabus, look at the book.” So I get the book, and of course, you know, you don’t, it’s amusing, right? So you look inside the book, it’s like, Elementary Probability. And you open it up, and it’s like, there is nothing elementary about it! [00:20:52]

THERAPIST: (laughs) Yeah, right!

CLIENT: Nothing elementary about it! (pause) Anyway, so prerequisite for the course is multi-variable calculus and linear algebra. So I feel like, “All right. So I’m finally qualified in thinking about this now.” But it is amusing, right? I mean, it’s Elementary Probability and like, you have to be two years of math before you can get to it.

THERAPIST: Well, probability sounds like such an accessible (chuckles) thing, you know? But it’s not! Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, that’s right! That’s right. And it doesn’t even start off, that’s the thing, because I was...

THERAPIST: It’s not as daunting as calculus, or trigonometry or... [00:21:40]

CLIENT: No. And yet, and yet, this is the thing about like probability, is that the math uses all the calculus, and yet in calculus, there are very few surprises, in the sense that... Like, when you’re sitting in a calculus class, you’re not, when you’ve discovered the fundamental theorem of calculus, that there is a relationship between integrals and derivatives, it’s not like you’re like, “Oh, my God! It’s amazing!” You’re kind of like, “Eh, makes sense.”

And you know, it’s not easy to do; I mean, the math is hard, but the big idea isn’t earth shattering. Whereas probability, everything is so NOT intuitive. I mean, we are not designed to deal with probability. (therapist responds) So... I don’t know. The other math classes, it’s not necessarily straight forward, but you’re not, your own beliefs about things aren’t being challenged. In probability, the math is hard, but the ideas are harder, so it’s intriguing. [00:22:47]

(pause) Anyway. So, I’m looking at this, you know, Chapter Zero of the Probability book, and it just completely bypasses the regular sort of probability that we all know: the idea of addition, and multiplication, and you know, what are the chances of rolling three sixes with a single die in a row. It completely just skips that, I mean, that’s not even discussed. It’s just sort of assumed that, you know, you know the basics. You know, so I’ve had to like passively, I’ve been reminding myself of the basics, of conditional probability. So, that’s the thing. Like, I do work. So I... do you know, strip wallpaper and sand and spackle and such; but in the morning, I always study for a bit, so that while I’m doing all this, it’s in my brain, it’s percolating, right? (therapist responds) [00:24:04]

(pause) I got an Ain the Linear Algebra course, so I’m pleased with that. (pause) I don’t know. There is a feeling of unrest I have, I don’t know. It’s... I don’t know. You’ve probably seen this every time, like I finish a class, there is always that feeling of like, “What now?” It’s like, “Where do you go now, go now, go now?” (therapist responds) Last night, I taught. In a (inaudible)... I don’t know. Everything is always... things feel different when I am about to teach and after having taught, there is a sense of... satisfaction, right? A sense of it being this... discreet activity that’s really productive. (therapist affirms) It’s less amorphous. Math is an idea. Doing home repair stuff... there is something on-going about it, and so you can... You know, you could say, “This room is done,” in some way; or it’s painted or something. Although I haven’t had that feeling yet. But I’ve had that feeling in the past, right? [00:26:03]

Anyway, it’s a big on-going thing. Okay, I’ve been teaching; very satisfying. (pause) Teaching Maria; so she’s doing her algebra stuff, and she was doing the sequences recently. So arithmetic sequences and geometric sequences and (sighs), you know, adjacent (ph) geometric sequences and whether they converge or not. (pause) Which is, in and of itself, just sort of this intriguing idea. (pause) I don’t know. I was just thinking of an actual problem, and just sort of, the idea of adding one to a half, to a fourth, right? Just keep multiplying by (ph) a half, and it just is this finite number; just this cool idea, I think. Just adding fractions infinitely, you’ll get... two! That’s the answer! Two! [00:27:19]

(pause) And if .999999 repeating is one... It’s not close to one, it is one, which is... I don’t like it, but it’s, I’m trying to explain why that’s the case to her, even though like, and being honest, “Yeah, I don’t like it. Like, just do the math. You prove to yourself that in fact it is one.” Just the idea of limits. (pause) Anyway. So she’s doing better at math. So she texted me. She got her highest grade of the year, so she’s excited.

THERAPIST: There is the satisfaction.

CLIENT: Well...

THERAPIST: Is that right or...? [00:28:15]

CLIENT: Well, there is satisfaction for me, there is satisfaction for her, and there is also this... (pause) I don’t know. You can’t help but put yourself back in that mode of being in high school. One, being a student and being that age, but also being in front of a classroom, and the difference of actually like, being someone, you’re just teaching one person.

(pause) Anyway, so you know, absolutely, she’s sort of just growing! She’s just absolutely growing. I guess I feel... I’m always trying to... (pause) I’m always trying to somehow make her feel more relaxed about things, because I feel like she gets a lot of pressure from school itself, and from her parents because there is this idea of them having to possibly move out of Waltham if she can’t get her grades up, and move to the suburbs. So she’d go to a suburban high school, because in their minds, her school is the only school in Waltham (which, you know, is more or less true (ph)). But it’s... I don’t know, it’s growing (ph). (therapist responds) [00:30:04]

So I feel like I’m in the role of wanting her to do well, but not trying to stress her out. So I try to make everything fun and just sort of focus on the current activity, and not to stress over the fact that she has C’s and D’s in all of her classes, you know? Because what do you do? I mean, you know, you can’t change her mind, you can’t dwell on it, you just have to keep doing well and have some hope that things can work out. (therapist affirms) I don’t know. So it’s... I guess we all try to feel that way, right? But, you know, I guess if you were her mom, technically, yeah, these grades count, and so even if you’re going to go to a fancy school, C’s and D’s are C’s and D’s. Anyway. [00:31:03]

THERAPIST: Yeah, you said that in some way, you can kind of, it kind of puts you back into that feeling of pressure of...

CLIENT: Yeah... Yeah, the feeling of being all of a sudden, I guess it shows you that you’re not the best, yeah. (therapist affirms) Yeah, so that transition in high school, you know, which, that’s the transition she’s facing, right? She was the big fish and then she (therapist affirms) studied really hard, right? They paid for tutors for her to get in, you know, do well on this test to get in to her school. The problem with that, of course, is... It’s good to be at her school; however, if you have to prepare really, really hard to get in to into her school, you’re competing against kids who didn’t have to work as hard to get in. So, like in a way, one could say, you’re just kind of setting yourself up. (therapist responds) [00:32:11]

And that wasn’t my case, I don’t think. It’s not like I just, you know, studied and passed tests to get into the school I went to, you know. (pause) But yeah, that sense of, I can see the... or maybe I’m putting too much on it. But somehow, I feel like she must be... She doesn’t betray this, right? She doesn’t seem down, and I don’t want to talk, you know, heavy stuff with her at all, but I can’t help but think that she’s feeling badly about comparing herself to other people and feeling, you know, “How are they getting A’s and I’m getting C’s and D’s?” That’s certainly the elephant in the room. (therapist affirms) (pause) And she’s really bright. You know, it’s not, I mean, she’s smart. So it’s a bit baffling. I’m thinking, “Yikes! How is it that a smart person who works hard doesn’t do well?” I don’t know. [00:33:27]

THERAPIST: (pause) But yeah, there is some kind of, there is some kind of potential for her to be, to see herself as a failure of some sort, or a...

CLIENT: Yeah. Which I’m... I don’t know... sensitive to, I guess, and still sensitive to.

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. You kind of suggested, you hoping that she’d get herself out of that kind of mindset of a “fail, no-fail,” a “fail, succeed” kind of dichotomy in some way, to kind of look outside that and...

CLIENT: Yeah. (sigh) Yeah, I would also feel like... like there is a path out, right? (therapist responds) There is a path... You know, I was talking to her mom, and I was like, you know, I said, “There are kids who are just naturally more savvy when it comes to, and they’re groomed in some way, to compete. They know the game at an earlier age for some reason. Maybe it’s just, that’s the way they are as people, maybe that’s how they’ve been groomed by their parents, maybe it’s a combination of both. So, if you’re a smart kid, coming from a family where you’re an actress and your husband is an accordion player, and you go to Italy every summer, and it’s all about going to plays and listening to music, right? And she does well in school, and it’s not necessarily about driving her and making her study for her age. Then she gets into a place like this, where she’s disproportionally around people who have been planning on getting into an Ivy League college since they were in pre-school. I mean, everybody’s been set up for that. That’s tough, because all of the sudden, you’re competing against them. It’s not that they’re smarter. You know, I mean, in some cases they really are, but... It’s that they just have this view of getting a grade.” And... Yeah. I don’t know, it’s like I said, “Please be cool.” (pause) Thinking I’d get, so I could get where she’s coming from. Like, my parents never pushed me. [00:36:14]

(pause) So I think now, there is a sense of like, Maria always did well, and now she’s in a school she’s not doing well. All of a sudden there is something like, “What’s going on?” It’s like, “We were okay, just to sort of let her study and she was all right. Then we worked hard to have her do well in this placement test, but...” Somehow the thought was, naively, that you need to get in and then you have good teachers, you have support systems, and then you just sort of, you thrive. That’s not the case. So now Ashley is somehow saying, it’s like the reputation of her school is really based on sort of this top ten percent of the students who are... whether it’s a good teacher or a bad teacher, they do well, and they get in the fancy schools. So the reputation of her school is, you know, hinges upon this top bunch of students who get into fancy schools. You know, the bottom half of the class... not much of a concern. (therapist responds) That’s her opinion. [00:37:28]

And I don’t know that, other than that (inaudible) having, you know, been there to... teach in any way, but... She said it’s very sort of 19th century: teacher in front of a classroom, not interactive. I don’t know whether that’s true or not, but, I find it hard to believe. But maybe it is. Maybe even in her school, there are bad teachers who you can’t get rid of; and I think her math teacher happens to be one of them. She’s this black woman who’s been around. I mean, good luck getting rid of a black math teacher, right? Because, I mean, really... I mean, she’s horrible! She’s horrible! [00:38:22]

THERAPIST: She won’t...

CLIENT: I’ve not met her, but she won’t lose her job! And she’s horrible! I mean, she’s, it’s... And I’ve not met her, and I’ve not, you know... I’ve not been in her classroom, but just based on just like, basic things of teaching, in terms of tests are on totally different days (sometimes it’s on Wednesdays, sometimes it’s Thursdays, sometimes it’s Fridays, sometimes it’s Monday; no predictability. Nothing regularized about it).

Double jeopardy, right? Take tests, don’t do well on it, and then she’ll not go over the test, not teach the stuff the kids got wrong, and then put it on the next test! So it’s like, if you get it wrong the first time, you don’t have a chance to learn it, and then you get it wrong again! I’m thinking, “No!” (pause) A test is an instrument, right? You assess, and it’s just as much of an assessment of the students as it is of you, the teacher. (therapist responds) If there are things that kids don’t get, and half the class is failing, you really have to pay attention to that. [00:39:30]

And, on any test, even if everyone gets an “A,” you go through the test! There are always going to be a few problems that people have difficulty with. And you go through, and you teach it. It’s a way to review. It’s a way to make the people who did well feel good and it’s a way people who didn’t do as well to learn... never learns. Even if you got it right, it’s good it hear the right way of doing it, or to have confirmation, you know, have confirmation that you did it the right way. All valuable.

THERAPIST: (pause) You know, it’s kind of like maybe in her school, this woman saying, the mother saying that school, maybe specifically you’re sort of sensing with this teacher, you’re either in the top ten percent, or you’re kind of left out. (client affirms) You get it very limited attention, better be in the top ten percent in some way, or you’re not getting it. [00:40:34]

(pause) And if you don’t have the, you know, you’re also at a disadvantage if you don’t have those parents that kind of are driving (slapping sound) you, driving you to make that ten percent of the... And the teachers are kind of teaching... I don’t know. Teaching you to that ten percent fraction, in a way, you know?

CLIENT: They’re teaching to it, and also, and Ashley brought this up, and I was thinking it, but I wanted her to say it. And I didn’t voice it back too strongly, but I appreciated actually, just saying it. She said, “You go to parent-teacher conferences and there are so many Asian parents. They’re like, ‘Standards, standards, standards! They aren’t getting enough work!’“ They sort of like, for the Asian temperament... in terms of inward rotation (ph) perhaps, and the idea of whatever they bring to education in terms of just a lot of hard work. [00:41:54]

I think the school is suited for that. It’s suited for memorization (therapist affirms), it’s suited for just being pushed, because that’s the norm. That isn’t really a bad thing. I’m not being critical of that necessarily, though it’s not my cup of tea, perhaps. But, yeah, if you’re not of that disposition and that background and that backing, with a lot of pushing, it’s easy to fall behind, I suppose.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and feel like you’re not even important, in a certain way. You’re not valid. You know, the way you’re learning to do it, this... student, it’s kind of like you’re passed over. [00:43:07]

CLIENT: I read this a while ago, like I took note of it, that... For, in any way, I mean, like I don’t know if it’s generally true, you know, across all schools, but... Apparently, for most Asian students, they’re ahead of the game as they enter kindergarten. It’s not because of language; it’s because... What they’re saying, is there is something about the culture itself that predisposes kids intellectually to be suited to learn in school. That they can maybe see patterns and accept knowledge, and there is a place for it to land, which I found intriguing. I don’t know, I’m not doing this study justice, but you know, when I read it, it made sense, and I was surprised. Just something, there is something embedded (therapist affirms) in the psyche. [00:44:23]

THERAPIST: Hmm. What, yeah. What do you think?

CLIENT: Well, I mean, the flip side of that is, you know, all of this stuff in terms of urban education. This idea of, you know, kids are disadvantaged from the get-go, compared to their suburban counterparts. You know, there is this gap that just widens over time, because kids who show up to school in the suburbs already know some significant percentage of words greater than what you find in disadvantaged backgrounds. So they know more words. They are better prepared to learn more words. (pause) [00:45:16]

You know, they just, they’re enriched, they’re enriched from the get-go. So, maybe... I don’t, you know I feel like I’m spending time talking about Asians, but it’s intriguing. Maybe, you know, Asians on average are predisposed to do well, even over regular suburban kids. (therapist affirms) It’s something about, it’s something I think just about work. I think that is this main thing. Then you get a sense of community, I don’t know; but it’s sort of this shared thing. I think also, this study was saying, too, it’s this notion of that, “If you work hard enough, you can always do it.” And they completely disavow this notion of, “Some people are gifted.” [00:46:13]

I mean, they acknowledge that, but I think it’s, at least in my background, there was this sense of, “Well, there are people who are really, really good and somehow it’s... You don’t know what to attribute it to exactly, but there are people who are really, really good. And they’re ‘naturals.’“ I think what this study is saying is that that’s not something that Asians really subscribe to, the idea is that, “No, everyone is talented and it’s a matter of working hard.” Because you don’t go into it with a bias, thinking, “Oh, they’re really smart. I can’t do that.” It’s the sense of like, “Oh. They’re really good at it; I need to work harder, so I can be good at it.” (therapist affirms) Which is, I think, a very healthy way to think about it. (therapist affirms) Of course, the problem is, if the kid really isn’t (therapist affirms) super-bright...

THERAPIST: Or lazy. [00:47:12]

CLIENT: Yeah, if they’re lazy and so then, it becomes a moral failing, perhaps. (therapist affirms) You know, parents maybe, especially if they’re not sophisticated... (pause) well, yeah, exactly, like you say; think their kid is lazy and so then the kid suffers the ire of, you know, criticism.

THERAPIST: Yeah. What I was thinking of, too (and I know I have to stop in a minute), but is that it gets at something else of, you know, this, what it made me think of is something else that maybe we haven’t touched upon a lot of, but what I was thinking about during our discussion is that if you’re not... And this seems to me, behind the kind of the urgency with which, the kind of the stereotypical Asian, maybe a Chinese family, kind of deals with their young, around academic issues, is that if you’re not in that top percent, you’re going to miss out on something. [00:48:20]

Seeing that as the gift... You know it’s not just a marker of one’s own... There is not just the importance here of what it means about yourself, you know? But also, it means something about missing out on something. You get something good if you’re in that percentage, you belong, but you also get... you’re part of something that you total... Almost like there is in her school being kind of a metaphor of like, yeah, there is this ten percent of people that get the good stuff, and then the rest are like... (slapping sound) you’re out of luck. You can’t, whatever is left of, I mean, I don’t know. You’re on your own, or something. (pause) You get taught, attended to, have.... [00:49:22]

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, it’s like, you know, why am I sensitive to this? I feel like, you know, sort of like we’ve discussed this in the past of like, I don’t know, just I mean... feeling different socio-economically, feeling different in terms of, from the very beginning, just my health, right? Just had, you know, as... I knew in kindergarten that I was a kid who got to go see the nurse. I had to go get medicine twice a day. I was being looked out for, I was different in a sense. I was the one who was missing school, because of being in an oxygen tent. And I wasn’t aware of... the social class at that point. And I think it’s probably pretty homogenous, because we lived in the mountains at that time, so everyone was pretty... parks (ph) and drove trucks. So we owned goats, we had goats, everyone had goats, everyone drank goat milk. I mean, that was the setting there. So that was... that. [00:50:47]

But then the city, (inaudible), yeah. Feeling... yeah, all of a sudden being in a bigger class and not knowing these people, and they live in homes like I... you know, it’s like weeds, you know, it’s like rustic (ph), right? You know, track homes and (sings tune “da ta da ta, etc.”) You know, and having cakewalks and Ring Around the Rosie and thinking, this is just really strange. (therapist responds) You know, like, “Who are these people?” [00:51:25]

Then switching out of that, in public school, I was there for you know, one year, and they thought I was retarded. (therapist responds) So, you know, for, you know, all the crying to the doctor and, you know, “What’s wrong with Brian?” He said, (inaudible) Brian, so I went to private school. And then... I think... You know, private school, right? So, you know, I get dropped off either in a big ole Suburban or the Pinto (Ford Pinto, right? With paneling!) You know, but it’s a Volvo-Mercedes school! Right? And you know, it’s first grade, you don’t notice too much. But you notice! You notice when people go on vacations to ski, or people go to tennis camp. I think, “I don’t ski. I don’t play tennis.” [00:52:20]

THERAPIST: Something different is going on.

CLIENT: So, I sensed that, you know, being different like, “How do they have this stuff?” (therapist responds, affirms) I don’t know; so compensating in some way? I don’t know. Always competing, always wanting to be the best and usually succeeding, right? Winning the prizes, the art prizes, and the science fairs, and best this, and getting the ribbons, and doing all that. But feeling like, “No matter how much I do, I’m not being picked up in a Mercedes.”

THERAPIST: Hmm. And you get something, if you’re in that. If you get... You know, you get something if you perform. You know, you have to be in that top tier, or you’re going to get (chuckles) you know, forgotten, or something. You know, what happens to you, if you’re not winning those prizes, if you’re excelling?

CLIENT: Yeah, and even while winning it, it’s like, I’m not (therapist affirms) I’m not really getting anything (inaudible). Right, I mean, they’re not doing as well, and yet they seem like they’re on a track. [00:53:25]

THERAPIST: They’re still on that track, yeah.

CLIENT: They’re on a track. So, I mean, I guess so Dr. Spelling’s son, London, who is my good friend, right? Dr. Spelling is sort of like a second dad. You know, they had that really big house and he had a fancy Porsche. It’s like I know I’m brighter than London, and yet somehow, like in high school, I had this sense (he went to a different high school), like somehow he was on a different track, and that just by virtue of his dad driving him, and it’s like, I know I’m more talented, and yet he just is sort of like machine-like, going to school. I’m thinking... and that pays off! You don’t... No, you are going to take these classes and...

THERAPIST: Yeah, that’s it, yeah.

CLIENT: I mean, like in that, I’m not being critical of London, but I was just, I was aware of it. Like, I...

THERAPIST: No, no, no!

CLIENT: I know (inaudible), painful. I’m always, I was always out-doing him. (pause) And he’s suffered from being driven, right? He didn’t like it! Same with Jimmy; he did not like being driven by his parents. And I was never driven. I don’t know. [00:54:52]

THERAPIST: Yeah. They already had something, though, you know? They already had it, or something; I...

CLIENT: And then Roger, he was not driven at all. He was sort of left to his own, right? His parents were going through stuff, and his dad’s this, you know, Top Gun pilot. It’s like he had his own stuff going on, and he’s just come home and like watch TV and drink bee. Like Roger was super-talented and just wanted to get the hell away. Like, Roger’s thing was, he was never pushed by them, but he was just bright and learned by play soccer and he was angry. So like, he and I had that in common, a sense of like, having parents that didn’t push us. But my parents were very encouraging and his parents were very just... he was like, always on his own. But Roger was really bright, sort of had this angry drive. He just like, you know, maybe just naturally more talent than me... which I, you know, am aware of, which I always just (inaudible). [00:55:50]

THERAPIST: Well, listen, I have to... yeah. All right!

CLIENT: Okay. Hmm! Okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah, next week.

CLIENT: Back up the ladder!

THERAPIST: Back up the ladder! (laughs)

CLIENT: See you.

THERAPIST: See you, all right.

END TRANSCRIPT