TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi. How are you? I'll be with you in just a second. (long pause) [00:01:36] Hi. Come on in. Welcome back.

CLIENT: Thank you. It's been a while.

THERAPIST: Yes. How are you?

CLIENT: Doing all right. Yeah, it's been a very busy two weeks. The fun is coming back, so that's been an interesting experience, too. [00:02:11] It was interesting and so unexpected. I came back and was really excited to be here. After a few days I realized that I was sad and I was trying to figure out why. I was sitting like that for a few days just trying to figure out what was going on despite being back, which was something I was really excited for and my classes and all the excitement. I was kind of feeling not totally with it or in it, I guess. That seems to have subsided. [00:03:00] The only thing I could think of why was just . . . (pause) I spent this summer doing something really intense with all of my being and then I had three weeks back home, which was really great. I realized how much I missed being in Switzerland and how important those relationships are to me. And then I came back here and I started getting the mundane things back because when you're traveling you don't have to worry about that in the same way; and I think I was just craving that same sense of meaningful work that I had this summer. I don't think I processed that shift in what was going on because I finished the program and then I was just off to home and then I came back and it kind of caught up with me. [00:04:06] So I'm kind of processing that. That is sort of where it has shifted now. I still have meaningful work to do, but it looks differently than it did before. (pause) I don't know if that's it, but that's what came to mind.

THERAPIST: So you're wondering if it's that loss that you're feeling sad about.

CLIENT: Yes. (pause) It was also interesting being home because I was home for a week with my parents and kind of realizing things about myself interacting with them. [00:05:03] I've come to the realization that I don't get frustrated about small details. If you're planning an event and a little part of it doesn't work, I'm okay with that. Or we were trying to figure out where to eat or these small little things that, either way, I will be happy so I don't really exert the energy to really influence it. I just accept what happens. I was with my parents and seeing their interactions and realizing that they have a lot of small-scale conflicts about small things, being like "oh . . ." Maybe that is a reaction on my part to that environment of kind of seeing the frustration that can come over things that don't really matter for me, at least, or things that I don't think should matter. [00:06:05] And so I'm not subconsciously or consciously being like "okay, I'm just not going to fuss about that" because I can see what that type of thing in a relationship creates.

THERAPIST: What kinds of things?

CLIENT: It's a lot of animosity and stress. Sometimes I was watching my parents interact and I was like, "I'm curious what keeps your relationship together. I don't really know that you are going to work things out in the relationship." But in those moments, I can see the frustration that it causes and I can see how the dynamic of how things get frustrated is a pretty similar dynamic, which is usually my dad responding to something my mother has started. [00:07:06] Or something has happened and the dynamic is that she will bring it up and that will start the back-and-forth. That's hard for me to watch, so it brings up questions about their relationship. Yeah. (pause) The other interesting thing was every time I come home I try to figure out how to not revert to my high school self because that's really easy to do because you're back in that environment. [00:08:04] I was happier with my ability to not need to go there and it was interesting in that the last night we were having a discussion about my summer, me, my mom, and my dad, and me and my dad actually had this interesting conversation about my calling and my theology and things like that. We've never really had a conversation like that before. We may have had passing statements, but it seems like there was a real reaching out or engagement with it or with me. That felt very good. [00:09:00] It was interesting to watch the dynamic in the way that my dad was asking questions, my mom was considering it to be like an attack on me, but I didn't consider it like that. I realized what was beneath the question was him trying to understand because my theology is very different than a lot of people's theology. So he was just trying to understand and the way he was framing his questions was a bit odd, but beyond that it wasn't a big deal. But that seemed to trigger my mom and then she didn't engage in that conversation. That was just interesting to see that, that place that really isn't explored a lot. I've kind of started to.

THERAPIST: Did it feel good to have your dad express that interest? [00:09:58]

CLIENT: Yeah, it really did. He even said that when he was younger he considered going into the priesthood. The conversation about theology was, in some ways, I had found in my tradition ways around and ways of answering the questions that stopped him from really doing it, which was interesting to see; and I had never known that about my dad. I don't know a lot about my parents. So it did feel really good and it felt surprising that it happened. It just felt like there was an attempt to kind of see me and what I was doing in more than just the mechanics of what goes on in my life because I think it's really easy. We can get to know someone on that level of what the person does but the why is a deeper space of knowing. [00:11:07] (pause) Just feeling within that dynamic that reaching out and that hesitancy on my mother's part to engage with it, still reminded me of that weird relationality that we have. (pause)

THERAPIST: Do you feel like your mom, in general, sees things as sort of attacks that aren't?

CLIENT: Yes. Yeah. I think there is a really big defensiveness. [00:12:04] Whenever there is a lack of communication or mis-communication, that's a really big problem for her. (long pause)

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about? [00:13:02]

CLIENT: (chuckles) I didn't know where to go next.

THERAPIST: I didn't know if you were thinking more about that thought.

CLIENT: No, I guess I always have just accepted my relationship with my parents as what it is and trying to create a deeper relationship with them is maybe something I want well it is something at some level that I want but I've never really actively done anything about it. (pause) [00:14:06] I think that . . . (long pause) I've also thought recently a very palpable sense of possibility and confidence that I felt at last term has kind of diminished, so I've noticed a lot more self-critical voices and questions in my mind about schoolwork and the future. [00:15:15] It's been a more stressful way to engage with the work that I'm starting to do this semester. I kind of feel fundamentally incapable of producing anything good, despite the fact that I know I will produce decent things. I'm walking down the line again that's kind of a known but frustrating place.

THERAPIST: I'm sorry walking?

CLIENT: Walking that line that's a known.

THERAPIST: I thought you said walking online. I'm like I'm not sure how you do that. [00:16:01]

CLIENT: Yeah, it's a place I've been for a really long time and I'm always annoyed when it comes back. (pause) I feel like I've been doing things, like I've been doing positive things for my mental well-being in terms of relationships with others, in terms of not getting involved. In past relationships I still have baggage that I'm not picking up intentionally and not wanting to get involved again and setting clear boundaries and having some good conversations with particularly one person who we have a very muddled relationship and really trying to clear that up. [00:17:07] I kind of state my boundaries for what I need and what I desire to have, so I've been feeling that those types of things have been going better than they have kind of more of a foresight in my thought processes relationally. I don't know. I feel muddled. (chuckles) (pause) [00:17:59]

I've been randomly looking at PhD applications, which is really weird for me and I don't know why because I don't want to do a PhD right now. It actually doesn't interest me because it won't allow me to do the work that I want to do right now. I think it has almost become that I somehow need to prove to myself that I could do a PhD because of the kind of return to these places; and that's weird.

THERAPIST: What places?

CLIENT: I wrote a piece for one of my classes and I was just like, "This is a terrible piece. The comments are going to come back and they're just going to rip it apart. You're not providing anything new or insightful. It's just regurgitating other people's ideas." I feel that cycle when I'll be writing and I'll write something and then basically step back and rip it apart because it doesn't feel like it's adding. It's like anyone can say that and I need to figure out something more; and then I usually do a complicated, theological equation, which isn't actually useful, but it's like I needed to do something unique or profound. Those thoughts are kind of like, "You don't have the intellect to do this. You don't have the capacity to do this. Whatever you produce is going to be worthless." [00:20:06] Yeah. (pause) I think the way I interact with them, because I know that there are things I'm bad at but there are things I'm good at, so I think in my mind I meet in the middle and I'm like, "Okay, I will (sniggers) turn out to be mediocre," and that's a also a very uncomfortable place for everyone involved because that's not a space I want to be, despite the fact that that's a perfectly acceptable one.

THERAPIST: What does mediocre mean to you?

CLIENT: It means not achieving maximum impact, not being knowledgeable and possessing a critical intellect that allows you to interact in certain situations expertly. [00:21:31] (pause) To be mediocre would be very run-of-the-mill and average, in the sense of not living up to the potential that I have to be more than that. It's so frustrating to have these thoughts because they aren't in line with what I believe, but they're imprinted very strongly, so I think I've been using this PhD thing as a way to get that. Then that's like a final proof that there is something. [00:22:33]

THERAPIST: Mediocrity is such a status implication, like having a low status sort of an external perspective implication, if that makes sense, or value to or comparative somehow.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think a comparative is certainly an outlet of it. Seeing the gifts of other people and the capacities of other people and being like, "I'm never going to be at that level." I'm always going to come in below that and, therefore, that lower place virtually we can question the hierarchy but that lower place is an inferior place in my mind to be. And yet . . . [00:23:26] I think recognition about what space I'm in is, on some level, important to me to be recognized as a sort of caliber of person which, again, is not something I want to feel and think, but it's there. (pause) It takes a lot of energy to constantly be in that self-critical and comparative space. [00:24:16] In my mind, there is a greater freedom that would come from being accepting mediocrity as a way of being, acknowledging the limits and potential and just not stressing about it. (sniggers) I don't know how to respond to those thoughts and experiences. (long pause) [00:25:29] I feel like it takes away from being able to rekindle and continue to come back to the joy in my daily life that I experienced. I really do appreciate the ability to study and to learn and to make mistakes and to do what I love, but these other things are hampering that and that feels like I'm robbing myself of something. (long pause) [00:27:22]

Another frustrating thing for me was (chuckles) this summer, without even my consciously doing it, I lost some weight and that's always really frustrating, in a sense, because I've always been a little bit overweight. That's always been the norm, and the times when you fall away from that it's frustrating because it's happened a few times and it's always kind of come back; and so when I'm in the space where like this summer I was doing exercise and getting to a better space with my body, it seems to almost like taint it. It's like now it needs to be maintained and I get stressed about what I'm eating and things like that. [00:28:19] That's, again, not a fun space to be in.

THERAPIST: It makes me think about what we were talking about earlier in the session and, actually, what we talked about in other sessions was this feeling of loss, that any gain can be lost. It doesn't come of "oh, I lost some weight and that's good." It's "but now I have to maintain it. I can lose this gain," in a sense. It seems like that shadow is always following anything that you feel that you've gotten or achieved. [00:29:01]

CLIENT: Yeah. I know that I'm very quick to account any success to external factors and any mistake or setback to myself. I know that. But, yeah, that "what if this goes away?" (pause) [00:30:10] There is a huge constellation of things that are me and some of them are constantly in motion, constantly changing. It just feels like at times there is this tide that comes and it starts to eat away at certain parts of them. (pause) And then it's like what is that thing that's doing that? [00:31:06] (pause) I was talking to a friend when I was back home and we've been friends for probably a year. We're very similar in a lot of ways. I was talking to her about what I think about my experiences and whatnot and she was like, "You know, it's like you respond to everything in a way in which there seems to be something behind the way you react, like some shadow." [00:32:13] I don't know if she used the word "trauma," but something. One thing we talked about was she was like, "You never give off the impression that you want to be touched and you don't really initiate touch with other people." I was thinking about this and I was like, "Okay. I'm not sure what impression I'm giving off, but that's not the impression that I would want to give off." But I also know that somewhere deep inside me I feel like I have a hard time just touching someone without a lot of reassurance that it's okay. [00:33:03] One of the worst things I feel like I could do is to touch someone and they would feel like they didn't want me to do it. It made me feel really uncomfortable. We were talking about this and other things and she was like, "Yeah, I feel like there is this shadow and I don't think you know what it is; but I think it's there." And that got me thinking, "Okay, what is my relationship to myself and this thing, these thoughts?" I've had the thought that it might be linked to an event or relationship to parents or formative experiences with other people. [00:34:01] I'm just trying to figure out how to relate to that. Is it a part of me? Yes. Is it a part of me. No. It's so hard to nail down and it's just exhausting to constantly go through which makes it hard to engage, I think. (long pause) [00:35:14] I don't feel like I have any answers. (sniggers) (pause)

I know I [have the conflicts] (ph?) that make me question if I even know myself. I know all of these things about myself, but as a totality or in the deep space, do I actually understand myself? Or can we ever understand ourselves, is there that inherent disconnect. I don't know. [00:36:10]

THERAPIST: What are your parents like around touch?

CLIENT: Not very. As kids, definitely more, but yeah, when I see them we'll hug when I get home and hug when I leave. That's pretty much it. You know with my sister, a bit more touchy. We'll just lay on the couch cuddling. Beyond that, yeah, my parents not very. I don't think my parents have kissed me in years. [00:36:59] That just hasn't been part of the way we made our relationship match (ph) us, I guess.

THERAPIST: I was also thinking with respect to each other. I wasn't only thinking about that.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I wouldn't say overly. They'll hug each other and kiss each other when they see each other, like after work. I wouldn't say every day, but most days. I'm also not there a lot of the time, so I don't really know. But I don't think I've ever seen them really cuddling or something like that publicly.

THERAPIST: It made me think about it, actually, when you were describing that relationship earlier in the session when you were talking about not being sure what even keeps them together, so I was just thinking about the issue of touch, closeness. I know we were talking about not being sure what even keeps them together, so I was just thinking about the issue of touch, closeness. [00:37:57]

CLIENT: The last time I was there it really felt like they were closer than I'd ever seen them, but then this time I didn't get that feeling. And whether or not how accurate either of those perceptions are is up for debate. (pause) I know that during my program this summer I touched very few [ ] (inaudible at 00:38:42), probably less than most of my group members. (pause) And if I did, most of the time I would ask permission. [00:39:01] There are times in which things are assumed to be consent, like there is just an assumption that this would be the rite or the right impulse. I experienced it once when I walked into a room and I knew that what I was supposed to do was to go over to this woman who was on the ground and sit down beside her and hold her hand and eventually put my arm around her. In that case, it was so clear to me that that's what needed to happen. Like when (chuckles) I sat down beside her I said, "Can I hold your hand?" and she was in tears. That made it okay. I felt like it would be much harder for me to have just done it, despite the fact that (sniggers) don't even know if she really processed me asking the question, truly. [00:39:57] (pause) I assume that for other people there are times in which other situations are as clear as that one were to me and they wouldn't ask. Whether or not that's just a funky part of my personality or . . .

THERAPIST: When you're saying I that it would be clear to other people, you mean like the signals would be clear?

CLIENT: Yeah, that the signals would be clear and that they would feel comfortable a) reading them, assessing them; and b) following up on them.

THERAPIST: And so there is a fear that you would transgress some boundary or is it just your own discomfort?

CLIENT: It's a transgression, like it's not even touching other people; like I don't. Once I feel secure in whatever our relationship is and that touch is a part of it and I know the contours of what wouldn't be transgressing, then I'm very comfortable with touching; but it definitely is like ascertaining those boundaries of what is okay and what isn't. [00:41:16] I can see this in (sniggers) my attempts to date people. It's really hard to (pause) show that I'm interested in someone with touch, that is in between having sex with them and just meeting them. That in-between area . . .

THERAPIST: It's a pretty big in-between area. (laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah, that flirtations touching or initiating of things like that. That's a really hard place and I always feel really, really awkward in that space. [00:41:58] It's less awkward for me to have sex with someone than to be in a space where I'm figuring out how to touch the person, to initiate holding their hand, all of that. That's really stressful.

THERAPIST: I was thinking sex is more clearly defined, I guess. You're describing this ambiguity to touch.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, that's true.

THERAPIST: It sounds stressful.

CLIENT: It is.

THERAPIST: That's the most emotion you've showed today. (laughs) You look so stressed out.

CLIENT: (chuckles) It's stressful. Yeah. (pause) I'm just curious as to why, as is all things in the [throe ]. (ph?) (chuckles) Why? And then how do I relate to that? [00:43:09] I think entering into heights of shame isn't the right space to be to try to be like "this is all right" and then going from there and figuring out ways to decrease my stress in those situations so I cannot recluse or do things that feel right or kind of push myself beyond my own comfort zone. It's still hard to know how to relate to it and why it's there, or how much I should care about that and just sort of try to combat, (chuckles) interact with it, in its physical environment of "Okay, I'm going into this situation and now I'm in this situation. [00:44:12] What are things I can do to help me deal with it?" versus being "Okay, I sit here," and kind of going down that route. I don't think they're mutually exclusive, but I don't know where to go with it. (pause) I also know that in those situations it's oddly important to me that the person initiates. I don't know why. [00:45:05] It's like it makes me feel really good when another person initiates contact. In all of my idle fantasies about my future life, if there is a moment in which someone would propose to me it's always someone proposing to me in my mind.

THERAPIST: And not the other way around?

CLIENT: And not the other way around. It's like why is that reaching out to me is important versus me doing it?

THERAPIST: We're going to need to stop, but these are all good questions. (chuckles) Does this time work for you?

CLIENT: It does, yeah. [00:46:03]

THERAPIST: I would want it to be a part of a larger conversation, but I know we talked when I saw you this summer about maybe coming twice a week and I don't know if you just want to sort of revisit that next time we meet or . . ?

CLIENT: I think that might be best. There are still some [following] (ph?) parts of my schedule, but I know this time is good.

THERAPIST: Okay, so we'll meet at this time. And I think you had a co-pay from July due. Do you have the invoice for it? Or do you need it?

CLIENT: Yeah, I was meaning to bring a check today. Can I give you a credit card number? Does that work?

THERAPIST: Sure. You can give me a check next time or a credit card, whatever you prefer. It's okay if you bring it next time. Do you prefer credit card?

CLIENT: I would prefer to do that so I know that it's done.

THERAPIST: Okay. That's good. That's fine. I can do that if you'd like. [00:46:59] Thank you.

CLIENT: Tuesdays are my 8:30 to 10:00 class and I have a staff meeting at work at 10:30, so I have to bike from Amherst to Watertown and I have a class at 1:00. It's a fun day of getting around.

THERAPIST: Oh, my gosh. You're going back and forth a lot. Well it was nice seeing you again. I'll see you next week.

CLIENT: Yes, thank you.

THERAPIST: Okay. Take care, Greg.

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