TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Do it often, but you know it’s a great learning tool to do that, so.

CLIENT: Okay, that’s fine. No I was just – it was just a -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Question. If it was being done out there.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it probably one day soon.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So, how are you doing and how was your week?

CLIENT: Good. I think that you know going back after –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know last week’s session and thinking about – you know I (sigh) I recognize that there – you know there’s that hum, I don’t know if it’s a – I don’t think that the correct description would be that there’s like this volcano of emotion waiting to erupt. But I recognize it you know, there’s – there’s stuff there. [00:00:46]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know and it’s like over the years and whatever the number of years this has been, you know we kind of laid out a timeline last week.

THERAPIST: We did.

CLIENT: And it was you know that (sign) you know some of this stuff I’ve kind of been like dealing with in one way or another for ten – [00:01:05]

THERAPIST: 13 years.

CLIENT: Yeah, 10, 12 years, something like that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: And I recognize that it’s like well, I’ve gotten to a place where you know – you know through my own Taoist practice –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That it’s like I can start to you know detect and to see you know when those feelings are starting to arise.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Not that I’m trying to ignore them.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Or to squelch them. But just to recognize that it’s like – you know it’s like welcoming a friend in. It’s like okay, or you know, maybe not a friend – [00:01:36]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But it’s like you’re here anyway, have a seat. You know –

THERAPIST: So – okay so last week we talked a lot about you know, why –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: You decided to come in.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And you know kind of looking at the relationship with your wife and it didn’t turn out the way that you had wanted it to, even though you’ve been in it for 25 years now –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And kind of some of the things associated with that. And we talked about how you have sort of looked to meditation and Taoist practice to kind of help you cope with the fact that, and explain maybe – [00:02:10]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: You know why for example, your wife’s sexual abuses had such a negative impact on your relationship and your ability to be close to her.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: When we talked about last week your burying is the wrong world – word. But not dealing with some of the strong emotions associated with that.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: What – what did you come up with? [00:02:33]

CLIENT: (deep breath)

THERAPIST: Who is the old friend I guess is what I’m asking.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, yeah – I think that those – some of those recurring feelings that you know, that maybe early on –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Were a lot stronger. You know in terms of like really being angry.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Really being hurt. Really being frustrated. You know knowing that I went through periods of depression. [00:03:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Because of the marriage.

CLIENT: Probably, I meant here was – yeah. There was some other things going on there, but yeah that’s probably the biggie, yeah.

THERAPIST: Can you tell me about some of those periods of depression.

CLIENT: Yeah. I got to the point of labeling them. You know, for me it was being in the pit.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know it was like you knew you were there.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: It was kind of like not necessarily just waking up one morning and you were there. It’s kind of like you know there was this slip – [00:03:37]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Down kind of the steep slippery –

THERAPIST: The slippery slope, yeah.

CLIENT: Slope and then all of a sudden you’re there in this pit. And it’s like I can’t get out. I can’t – I don’t have the skill necessary to figure out how to scale back up and get out, you know kind of thing. [00:03:53]

THERAPIST: It’s interesting that you label that as something that you should have been able to do by having a particular skill set.

CLIENT: Hum (sigh). Hum, hum, hum. Yeah, I – you know back then you know there wasn’t a skill set.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know it was just I’m here –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it just is awful.

THERAPIST: Yes. But sometimes even when you have a skill set it’s –I mean a pit, it’s the pit of hell.

CLIENT: (chuckle)

THERAPIST: Right? I mean it’s –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Horrific. I mean you know, how far are you in your own clinical program? [00:04:27]

CLIENT: This is really my first full year, so – yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. So when you work with someone who is clinically depressed, it doesn’t matter if they’re a fricking genius –

CLIENT: (chuckle)

THERAPIST: Okay, and have all of the skill sets in the world, and have taught –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: World class seminars on cognitive behavioral therapy and the treatment of depression.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: It’s still the pit of hell

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: So you know, back to my original kind of idea here. It’s interesting that you label it as something that you – you know I guess I’m wondering – [00:05:04]

CLIENT: Um-hum, um-hum.

THERAPIST: You know kind of continuing –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: From our discussion last week, where’s the empathy for yourself in all of this?

CLIENT: Um-hum. I think it is starting to develop. I think it is starting to develop. I’ve recognized that yeah, it’s not something –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: That has been present. So I think it’s really – you know and it’s been more of an intentional practice maybe within the last six months. [00:05:36]

THERAPIST: Interesting.

CLIENT: To really –

THERAPIST: So all of these years, right, where you are you know, forming this life with someone and we all have an idea of what we want that to look like. You have children –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: You know, you know, looking kind of at your, I don’t want to call it a crisis of faith, but kind of re-exploring your –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Christian faith, and what that means and what that doesn’t mean.

CLIENT: Right, right. [00:05:59]

THERAPIST: And you know your son’s coming out process. The fact that your wife has issues she can’t talk to you about. In some ways you’re isolated looking –

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Inside.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: Disconnected from all of this. All of the emotional intimacy that you want, that’s one of the reasons why many of us get married, just to for one reason.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: And you’re just now allowing yourself to be empathetic towards you.

CLIENT: Yeah and I do see it as you know kind of a byproduct of you know this particular path – [00:06:33]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Of you know, kind of this inward path.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And –

THERAPIST: Why do you blame yourself so?

CLIENT: Do I? Let me – let me get my head around that. Do I blame myself? For?

THERAPIST: Blame is probably the wrong word. Finger point at you, shame and damn yourself. [00:07:02]

CLIENT: Hum.

THERAPIST: I should have had the skill set to –

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: You know.

CLIENT: Well.

THERAPIST: That’s just one example.

CLIENT: Am I – yeah. Am I – am I really feeling that, that strongly? I guess – I guess for the most part that probably, I’m a fairly self-sufficient person you know, [00:07:30]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know and kind of you know, just because I’m in the theories class right now –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know it’s like oh, okay, so we’re doing. All right. Where do I fit with all the Adlerian stuff. Okay, well I’m the oldest child, let’s see you know.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: So it’s like, it fits.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know it’s like you’re the self-sufficient, you know over achiever and whatever. Responsible, blah, blah, blah, you know. And it’s like well, yeah. You know it’s like – and I suppose that those were messages that were there in childhood as well, it’s like – [00:08:02]

THERAPIST: Can you give a voice to those messages so that I’m clear?

CLIENT: Yeah, whatever. You know you’re – there’s not a – there’s not a whole lot of room for sympathy for like if you’re feeling bad.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know if you’re feeling bad, you’re feeling down, whatever, it’s like just do something. Go get busy. You know rub some dirt on it let’s go. You know.

THERAPIST: Get over it.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So there’s not a whole lot of that. So I’m sure that that’s you know a pretty strong voice in terms of like what one does with depression. [00:08:34]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: So it’s like okay I’m here in the pit and there’s nobody – there’s nobody’s that’s able to help me get out of it.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And I can’t – I can’t just whatever.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: It seems like all the get busy kind of things and trying to get over this isn’t helping anything.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know you’re just, you’re still in the pit.

THERAPIST: Um-hum. How bad did the pit get?

CLIENT: Oh, you know, I would probably, you know I was still functioning. [00:09:05]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know, still doing work and that kind of thing.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: It’s just that you know, you’re carrying around all this anger.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And whatever.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: So it’s like looking – looking in from the outside, it’s like well, I’m probably a pretty miserable person to live with.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know that’s – that’s probably how it manifested itself, you know.

THERAPIST: And you mentioned that last week, you’re like you weren’t allowed to be angry because –

CLIENT: Uh-huh, yeah.

THERAPIST: Previously when you got angry, that wasn’t okay. Tell me about when the depression occurred and what was the family’s reaction? [00:09:35]

CLIENT: (sigh) Yeah you know sometimes I think that it’s a little difficult to remember. I think that there was a feeling like, I almost have to just do this on my own.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know kind of thing, and it’s like I think that there’s just this sense that the best that I can do is be quiet. [00:10:01]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And to be non-communicative.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And that’s not helping anybody either.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know everybody knows that there’s something going on.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: (chuckle) We’re not going to talk about it. And I think over time people just learned that it’s like okay, give him his space and let him alone and eventually it will go away type of thing. [00:10:21]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: So yeah. So there’s this sense, I guess that not that anybody put me there, you know, but –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because of my inability to communicate or to talk it out or whatever, then it was like you go – you went through this alone. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: Yeah, but you know on the other hand, in some ways I, you know I have a kind of a strong reaction to what you’re saying, because I’m imagining you – you know there’s not the dialog that’s been created in the family culture – [00:10:48]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: To say hey, I’m hurting. Because that got shut down when you grew up. And that got shut down in some ways in the family culture that you created with your wife, given what you’ve told me about her own sexual abuse that she wasn’t open to talking about that. Right? [00:11:03]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so I’m imagining –

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: First of all because depression is its own form of awful. And even if you’re getting up and going to work every day, it’s still pretty awful. And how isolating that is, and nobody is saying, oh my God, are you okay? We are really worried about you. Is there anything we can do?

CLIENT: Yeah I don’t think there is – I don’t think there was any of that kind of voice. It’s more – it’s more of a frustration of you know, pull it together. You know and maybe that’s just me interpreting it, that it’s like [00:11:37]

THERAPIST: But how would that have been for you if somebody had said that?

CLIENT: That would have been pretty amazing. Yeah, you know it would have been a little, you know –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Enough of a shift that it may have like moved me in a particular direction or something or –

THERAPIST: So that’s where some of the anger comes from.

CLIENT: Hum, could be. Could be.

THERAPIST: You know I’m thinking of you know, and pardon the analogy okay, but – [00:11:59]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: A friend of mine told me her mother had surgery and the anesthesia did something weird –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Where she was awake but couldn’t speak.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: You know, and they finally figured it out and put her back under. But she is awake, right. And they’re still doing surgery, which means she begins to feel and see things. Yeah. Okay, but I kind of see that for you. Like you are having this depression, this reaction. – [00:12:25]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Where you are screaming for the inside. You’re just not making any noise.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And people aren’t noticing, reaching out, the family’s response is, we’ll just ignore it and hope it goes away. We’re going to give him his space. When what you really probably needed was for somebody to say, are you okay? What’s happening with you? What can we do?

CLIENT: Um-hum. Yeah and I think that there was probably that. You know it was like you know, but I think that the whole dynamic of the relationship is – had gotten to the place where it’s like (chuckle) you know there’s enough force fields up – [00:13:01]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And it’s like tell me what’s going on. And it’s like you know, there’s a problem with intimacy here.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s like I’m not sure what I can tell you anymore. You know. (laugh)

THERAPIST: So this is the – so you know last week you described for me –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You’ve been married 25 years.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It was at the 12 year mark where things really started to change. Did your depression begin to occur after the 12 year mark?

CLIENT: You know that – that was kind of a – it was kind of a tough time. You know we were talking care of elderly family, with hers –

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And you know they were kind of like passing at that point. Yeah, so there was like huge transitions – [00:13:38]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Going on at that point. So I would – I would probably generally characteristically – or you know say that yeah, that was.

THERAPIST: So your needs got lost.

CLIENT: Yeah. I did – I did seek out and went through a little personal counseling at that point.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know because I was really encouraging my wife to do that. [00:13:59]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I was kind of hoping that we would do something together.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: The best that she could do was – I think that she met two or three times with somebody.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And that was pretty much it. But I continued with this guy for, I don’t know, I’m kind of thinking weekly on and off for maybe, I don’t know, whatever the insurance paid for at the time.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know. Three months, something like that.

THERAPIST: Did you find it helpful?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, it was.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It was at the time. And I felt like it – it did allow – yeah. Or I don’t know if – I’m reluctant to say it gave me skills, but it probably helped me up enough you know. [00:14:40]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: It was another voice –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Or another ear I suppose really, just to allow me to yeah, talk through some of that stuff. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Did he get it?

CLIENT: Oh yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Um-hum. Yeah, I really think so. I think we connected well. [00:15:00]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I’m trying to think (chuckle) I’m just sitting here and like trying to reel back you know to 2000, I think that was when that session – those sessions happened and I’m just like trying to remember, you know.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: But (pause) yeah, I think you know because you know we were – you know we were dealing with you know trying to figure out, you know I was trying to come up with a way of like can we do some couples counseling. [00:15:35]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it just was like –

THERAPIST: Another force field.

CLIENT: Yeah. It was just like, you know this is the best that I’m going to be able to do right now and you know, so.

THERAPIST: You don’t sound like you believe that.

CLIENT: I do believe that it was really the best that she could do.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I think you know what I can – well what I see is that you know, there’s – there’s enough hurt there, there’s enough trauma there. [00:16:04]

THERAPIST: For her, for you, for both?

CLIENT: For her.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: That you know she – she gets so far and that’s it.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And it’s kind of like I’m a little curious, and it’s like well I just don’t under – and I think I’ve tried, I can’t remember which books, but I – I remember reading some books about that time trying to figure out you know – [00:16:29]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Kind of where is she at, and where’s she at and what she’s going through with the sexual abuse thing. And I know that you know, there’s really no way to know -

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know somebody else’s experience. So, but it’s like I tend to be –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Kind of proactive in terms of like hey, I’ve got issues, you know let’s –

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know and granted you know, it’s kind of like you know I’ve been dealing with things kind of in my own way. And then having the availability or having the opportunity to you know, to plug back into this – [00:17:04]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Into the counseling program, it’s like hey, this is a great opportunity to you know, explore this a little bit further, you know.

THERAPIST: So what is it like for you? I mean last week we talked a little bit about not only is the emotional intimacy missing –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: But a lot of the physical intimacy for several years now.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And what is that like for you?

CLIENT: I would say it’s been – you know it was – it’s been difficult. [00:17:34]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: But again kind of this process whereby you know I turned it from this this situation –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: That was just driving all of this anxiety and frustration and anger and whatnot. And eventually you know, turned it into a practice –

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: That allowed me to – you know it became kind of this spiritual quest or this kind of this – it’s like well, it allows me to look at it differently. [00:18:06]

THERAPIST: Okay, it – can you flesh that out a little bit for me more.

CLIENT: (sigh) You know I think that the – you know I’m looking at some of these theories now and I’m – you know I really don’t have a handle on all the theories.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And so I’m not going to be able to tell you which ones. But I mean there’s some certainly some stuff in the CBT. [00:18:29]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And there’s some existential stuff that –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know it all kind of gets pulled together or maybe it was the other way around. Because I mean Taoist philosophy and theory has been around for a very long time.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And you know so looking at that and recognizing that you know, it’s just – it’s just the conditions the way they are.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know it’s my reaction to these conditions that’s really at the root of my suffering. [00:18:57]

THERAPIST: Um-hum. Well and I think in some ways that is generous. But in some ways it also continues to deny your own real human needs that you wanted to get through your marriage.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Deserved to get through your marriage. And these are not unreal sexual needs and emotional intimacy needs in marriage are – [00:19:29]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Certainly not in any way, they change over time but –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: They’re not unrealistic needs.

CLIENT: No. I don’t think they’re unrealistic needs. You know and again I think I used an example last time that it’s like well you know, I know of –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Not a close friend, but it’s you know, more of like a distant relationship kind of a thing where you know this person is married to somebody who was in an auto accident.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And you know, they’re in – they’re still in relationship. [00:20:01]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: But his caring for a quadriplegic.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know this is a – you know it’s like well –

THERAPIST: So you’re saying it could be worse.

CLIENT: It could be worse.

THERAPIST: It can always be worse.

CLIENT: And I guess what I’m say it’s like you know, it’s reconciling the fact that it’s like well you know what, I can’t change her.

THERAPIST: True.

CLIENT: I can support her and I can encourage her, but I can’t change her.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: So it’s like well, you know I can get up this morning. [00:20:30]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And I can be really mad, frustrated, angry, depressed that life didn’t turn out the way that I wanted it to –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Or you know, I can somehow use this experience and you know, try to draw some strength from that, whatever you know.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Or it’s a recognition that it’s like – at least recognizing where the suffering is coming from.

THERAPIST: True.

CLIENT: It’s not coming from out there in.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: It’s that you know, the suffering that I’m experiencing is coming from within and I’m projecting it out onto a situation. [00:21:05]

THERAPIST: Do you think it’s either or? Do you think either you know – it’s like saying love and dislike can’t live in the same house. You know, it’s – you know I guess what I say is the either word, let me explain myself here.

CLIENT: Hum, hum.

THERAPIST: On the one hand, yes, I think that sometimes we can contribute to our own suffering.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: By the way that we view things. And on the other hand, it’s a very human experience to want to need something and have a reaction to that when we don’t get it. So in some ways – [00:21:39]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You are entitled to feel the range of things that you would feel because you know, you are entitled to grieve that life did not turn out the way you wanted it to. You’re entitled to you know, last week you described that your relationship with your wife is more like roommates. And I would imagine –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: That you would have some feelings, some strong feelings about that, you know. And you were -

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay, and so I guess you know, on the other hand, you have made a choice to stay with her – [00:22:07]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And accept the relationship as is because you can’t change her.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Right?

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: And I guess I’m saying you don’t think they can live in the same house, it’s either/or?

CLIENT: Oh, no. No. I think – I think clearly that they’re both there.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I think clearly you know there is an acceptance –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Or you know a recognition of conditions the way they are. [00:22:29]

THERAPIST: So what do you do with all of that?

CLIENT: (pause) What do I? I just want to make sure I’m understanding what you’re saying. What do I do with all of that?

THERAPIST: All of the conflict between those two things. Accepting it the way it is.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And –

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Feeling angry and hurt because it is the way that it is. And you can’t change it.

CLIENT: (sigh) Um, how do I deal with all of that/ [00:23:00]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Well I think that that’s you know, I think that that’s been this slow process.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know of the last six or seven years –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Where it’s like you know kind of coming to that place of being able to name those feelings. And recognizing that you know at some point –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know you can have – you can catch yourself and you’re in this full blown rage – [00:23:34]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Or anger about something. You know it’s like (pause) I’m I’m grasping for an example, but you know it’s like okay, I mean I’m angry about a situation that’s occurred –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And recognizing that over time it’s like the awareness level of like noticing the feelings starting to arise. [00:24:01]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And it’s like being able to name that and being able to have just a little bit of space -

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Between being able to see the feeling arise –

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And being able to name it and say, ah, this is – this is anger.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And not to try to deny the anger, -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Not to say that you shouldn’t be here.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: But it’s like if I can say this is anger, as opposed to I am angry – [00:24:33]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Gives me a little bit of space there and it gives me a chance to say do I really want to engage in this right now? What’s the benefit of engaging in this? So that –

THERAPIST: So and how good are you at that?

CLIENT: I’m getting better.

THERAPIST: Oh that’s good. Maybe you can teach me. (laugh)

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: I don’t have it like this.

CLIENT: Well and I guess that that is the – I guess that’s the benefit. And I guess one of the reasons that I feel so committed to continuing this meditation practice is like – [00:25:07]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Nobody has to tell me -

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: That this is a good thing. I know from my own experience that this is – this is a practical skill. (laugh)

THERAPIST: So not only meditation, but kind of providing some emotional distance, you know for you allows you some control over a situation in which it’s difficult to control. You can’t control the fact that your wife won’t – [00:25:30]

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Emotionally connection. But when you meditate about it, when you sort of get some emotional distance from it, you can feel like you have some control over you and your own response.

CLIENT: I think that what I also feel –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: That there’s a growing sense of compassion.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: That –

THERAPIST: Can you tell me about that.

CLIENT: (sigh) And perhaps that is one of the things that that growing sense of compassion is expending enough that perhaps I can include myself into that. [00:26:00]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But when I – and I’m using the (chuckle) this visual like being able to hold the situation.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Or the condition.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And to be able to recognize that you know, my interaction –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know however I contact – have some kind of a contact with that situation or the condition, you know – you know sense triggers – [00:26:33]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know somebody can say something, I can see something, I can feel – I can think something and all of a sudden you know, there is the arising of some emotion or feeling.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Now some issues that are not that big in my life anymore, I rarely – there have been there have been some things that it’s like hey, this doesn’t bother me anymore. You know, quick example, I grew up (chuckle) this is really stupid, but I grew up sitting next to my mother – [00:27:07]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: At the table, and she just had the most annoying way of eating (laugh)

THERAPIST: Give me an example.

CLIENT: She would just you know, the way she chewed, and it was like – I would sit there and you know it was like – you know the cartoon image that I have it’s just like – it just kept exploding and getting louder and I got to the place where – you know of course you don’t talk about these things or you know, how do you tell your mom, gee mom, can you close your mouth or something, this is really annoying. [00:27:40]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know but I learned to sit at the table in such a way that you know it was kind of –

THERAPIST: Covering your ear?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. So –

THERAPIST: What, well okay – why do you think –

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: If you grew up with her doing that, -

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: Why did that annoy you? As you – yeah. What about that was so annoying?

CLIENT: I don’t know. You know I almost think in some ways that it’s like you know, something becomes annoying – [00:28:01]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And then you know, we create, you know the story gets bigger and bigger and before long you know, we’ve turned it into this huge monster.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And it’s like now when I you know, I have to sit down to the table, I’m sitting down with the monster as opposed to just like well, can you focus on something else, or whatever you know. So –

THERAPIST: Can you tell me a little bit about how you grew up and who you grew up with so I can get a sense of –

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: (chuckle)

CLIENT: Oldest of five. I have four brothers and we’re probably all within like a year, year and a half. [00:28:37]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And then I have a little sister who is 11 years younger than me.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So in growing up I’m probably you know, I’m probably mom’s helper.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Just because –

THERAPIST: You’re the oldest.

CLIENT: I’m the oldest. You know there’s a lot of stuff going on here.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I don’t know, what else can I say. You know we come from pretty you know, strong religious background, you know Christian background. You know looking back on it now, you know the pretty, pretty conservative – [00:29:20]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know Christian values and that kind of thing. Small town America living you know in a town of 2,200 over –

THERAPIST: Where?

CLIENT: Dunlap.

THERAPIST: Okay, yeah.

CLIENT: Near Dunlap. So in a lot of ways, you know growing up in Cami. [00:29:35]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know –

THERAPIST: Relationship, mom, dad?

CLIENT: Dad worked as an auto mechanic all of his life. Out of the house before I got up in the morning usually.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Got home 5:30, 6:00 at night. You know tired, exhausted and you know, you know so that that relationship a little bit more distant, probably was a lot closer to my mom. [00:30:00]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Probably still am.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know and – yeah. Yeah. So dad’s – now I did get involved in boy scouting, which I really had to you know, twist their arm to allow me to do that kind of thing, they just didn’t really want to get involved in that. You know I felt like (chuckle) they didn’t really want me to get involved in it because it was going to mean that they were probably going to have to get involved in it too. [00:30:33]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So –

THERAPIST: So you felt pretty – they discouraged you from doing it and you thought because once the kid is involved, the parents have to be involved too.

CLIENT: Um, I don’t even know if I thought that.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know it was more I just wanted to be involved in it.

THERAPIST: No, I mean looking back.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: That was you think one of the reasons why they didn’t want you to be involved in it?

CLIENT: Was because they were going to have to get involved?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Probably so. I think initially with my dad. [00:31:01]

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: And then – yeah. Eventually he got involved and interested, and then you know, was still involved in it after – long after I had given up.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: You know so –

THERAPIST: Okay. So then it became a family thing.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think it allowed my dad and I to connect on a certain level you know. Not a huge deep level or anything like that.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: I don’t feel like I have this really you know, deep relationship with my dad. Probably I don’t even feel like he’s not one of those people in my life who if I want advise – [00:31:36]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Or an opinion, he’s somebody that I would go to.

THERAPIST: What was that like growing up?

CLIENT: I don’t think I really realized that to that extent until you know, you started interacting with other kids, and it’s probably junior high –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Or high school, before you’re you know, like comparing parents and things like that. And it’s like oh, well. So it’s kind of like this disappointment. [00:32:03]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Well you know, it’s a disappointment in that it’s like okay, well here’s the – here’s the hand that you were dealt –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And it’s like well, okay. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Well that’s a – and that’s seeming to be a big theme.

CLIENT: The hand you were dealt?

THERAPIST: The hand you were dealt. Suck it up and deal with it.

CLIENT: (laugh) Yeah, it could be.

THERAPIST: What about your relationship with your mom? [00:32:29]

CLIENT: I think that yeah, and I’ve had a chance and I think I don’t even know if that was one of those things that we dealt with early on, or if it’s just something that I’ve come to recognize over the years, is that you know, with my mom, there was you know, a very clear sense of conditionality. [00:32:51]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know she had this you know, at some point during my growing up experience, and it was probably, I don’t know, maybe she started to have this feud with her brother –

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Her only sibling, and they live a block apart.

THERAPIST: I was going to ask what the close – yeah, okay.

CLIENT: And you know there’s been this ongoing feud and it was kind of like you know – and I – and I know this about my grandfather,. My grandfather went to his grave you know holding lifelong grudges. And my mother it’s like – it’s like once you get on the shit list you’re not getting off the shit list. [00:33:26]

THERAPIST: Tell me again your cultural background.

CLIENT: German American.

THERAPIST: Okay. That was – I was going to guess German or Irish.

CLIENT: Pretty much,

THERAPIST: Because that – there’s a feud culture sometimes in –

CLIENT: Yeah, you know and there was a – yeah. So you know we’re coming from this blue collar you know, mentality. There’s a you know, I remember hearing messages growing up as a kid that –

THERAPIST: Like?

CLIENT: That you know my dad would come home, and now I’m interpreting it –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: A little bit differently. It’s like well there’s a whole lot of insecurity there, but you know he would come home and talk about all these college educated people who brought their car in and didn’t even have enough sense to keep the oil changed – [00:34:08]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Or whatever, you know. It’s just like this sense of – this sense of – you got the message growing up as a kid that going to college wasn’t –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: A valued thing.

THERAPIST: Um-hum. And then you went to college.

CLIENT: And then I went to college. Yeah, I broke all the rules.

THERAPIST: And you went to college at Brown.

CLIENT: No, I got – my undergrad was at Northwestern.

THERAPIST: Okay, right, which is not too far from Dunlap, but then you got a Master’s Degree from Brown? [00:34:32]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: That was after we got married and –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, so.

THERAPIST: So you did break all the rules.

CLIENT: Yeah, you know it was great. You know and to a certain degree I was like wow, I really – well yeah. And you know I had some exposure through working at a boy scout camp –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: That allowed me to see kids that were going to college –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: It’s like oh, this is what you – I could be doing. And so that allowed me to eventually figure out how to climb over the wall and to get out you know, kind of thing. [00:35:04]

THERAPIST: It’s another wall.

CLIENT: My younger brothers, however, did not. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Or my younger sister. (laugh) As much as –

THERAPIST: So they didn’t, but you did.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, it – do you – do you kind of hear some themes here?

CLIENT: Well (pause) I know that there are some themes –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know and I know that one of the themes you know are – one of the things that I have kind of reflected upon – [00:35:39]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Earlier, is that you know, that notion that we sort of end up marrying our parents –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: To a certain degree.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know and as much as I like wow, I hadn’t really saw this, but this was a lot of – there’s a lot of conditionality. [00:35:56]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know it’s like – and you know my wife is you know, in a lot of way, a lot like my mom in terms of like you know she has some very clear understandings of how the world should be. And you know – yeah. So yeah, it’s like everybody knows. Everybody knows that there’s a list and you don’t want to be on it. [00:36:18]

THERAPIST: Um-hum. The shit list.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And everybody knows –

THERAPIST: Were you on the list?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, yeah for a while.

THERAPIST: When were you on the list?

CLIENT: Oh, when I went off to college.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: One of the (chuckle) one of the first things I did was to go with a friend to a bible study –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: That was being held in the basement. I turns out we ended up at the wrong one.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It wasn’t the one that he thought he was going to, but it turns out that it was this really fundamentalist, evangelical group.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And so – and they were – they were like high pressure salesmen and you know I was a freshman Christian – [00:37:02]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know I was a great find for them. (laughing)

THERAPIST: Sure, sure.

CLIENT: So by – you know, long story short, I ended up getting re-baptized into this fundamentalist church around Thanksgiving and so my – yeah, my folks didn’t have any idea or clue of how to deal with that. I came home and this young preacher had prepared me for what they were going to do and they were going to throw me out of the house. And here’s my phone, I’ll come and get you. And all this kind of stuff, and none of that happened. [00:37:40]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: So it kind of threw me off guard.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And then you know, I ended up having this kind of first counseling experience with an old teacher who was a nun.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And she was just you know – you know she had a great counseling sense and just – yeah. So by whatever, probably by Easter, you know I had kind of worked it out and – [00:38:05]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It was like –

THERAPIST: You found the right bible study, you went back to.

CLIENT: No, well you know, actually then it was kind of like I took the next two or three years off religion.

THERAPIST: Sure, okay.

CLIENT: And then my senior year in college I ended up at the Christian Student Center at Northwestern and that’s where I met my wife and (shoo) – yeah. [00:38:29]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: So. But yeah, there’s – I mean there’s a lot of (chuckle) there’s a lot of other detail in there too that I – I was engaged to another woman.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: A freshman – my freshman year in college, so yeah, I’m throwing this in. (sigh) So I come home my freshman year at college and I’m hanging out in the summer with the youth group, the youth guitar group at church. So this was clearly after the fundamentalist church thing. [00:39:14]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: So I’m just singing it with this group, and the leader of this group, we’re all about the same age, one night after practice, you know I can tell she’s in distress. She tells me she’s pregnant.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know it turns out that you know she’s working some place and the guy is twice her age. [00:39:36]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: So you know, I just – you know I’m her friend, I befriend her and then it was like you know, in this small town, -

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: All of a sudden you know it’s like, by the end of the summer or at some point –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know it (pause) it you know people are starting to wonder who’s the father and all of this kind of thing. So again, another long story short, I end up deciding to stand by her with this and we eventually, probably in shorter order thought, we ended up getting engaged. [00:40:14]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I go through the pregnancy with her. And you know, now there’s a child in the picture.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And now there’s this little child who’s walking around calling me daddy.

THERAPIST: Goodness, while you were a freshman in college?

CLIENT: Sophomore, junior in college.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And you know, by my senior year it was like you know, recognizing that yeah, this was you know, the wrong path to have taken and – [00:40:41]

THERAPIST: You did not get married to her.

CLIENT: We did not get married, but there was a divorce. (laughing)

THERAPIST: Yeah, well I bet, so how did the relationship end?

CLIENT: You know eventually yeah, it was – it was really probably the most difficult thing that I ever really you know did.

THERAPIST: Yeah, tell me.

CLIENT: But yeah, we – she was down and you know, things had been kind of cycling down and it wasn’t great anyway, but it was kind of like it just was a discussion – [00:41:14]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: It was like I really think that this – I just can’t do this you know.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: So it didn’t end like with any bombs being thrown or anything like that.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: But you know it was still – it ended -

THERAPIST: Did you end it?

CLIENT: I did.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I did.

THERAPIST: How do you feel about that?

CLIENT: It was the hardest thing I ever did, but you know that sense of freedom and liberation after that it was like that was palpable. [00:41:40]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it was like – oh, I felt really good about that.

THERAPIST: Do you still beat yourself up over that?

CLIENT: No. No, no, no.

THERAPIST: Okay. Okay.

CLIENT: I don’t. No, it was – it was to free I mean of an experience –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: To you know, it’s like well, at the time it was difficult –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it took a while to kind of work through that, but you know. [00:42:02]

THERAPIST: You know it sounds like you really cared about this woman –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Not necessarily, you know as a friend to kind of jump in and try to be helpful.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think it was kind of this –

THERAPIST: But you sacrificed yourself there a bit.

CLIENT: Yeah, I did. Yeah.

THERAPIST: But that’s another theme.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, I mean – you now going back a little bit, it’s like I’m imagining you, you know growing up in your household and one of the themes is being told that you’re not okay. Right? You know whether it’s directly or not, I mean is there any accuracy to that? You don’t fit in. Right? You’re – [00:42:36]

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: You know so –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: If you don’t fit in to who we are, that must mean it’s you, that you’re not okay. Right?

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Somehow you’re different. You’re not okay.

CLIENT: Well I was a little over weight as a kid.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And my three younger brothers –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: They bonded –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And they were the three musketeers. And -

THERAPIST: So it’s them against you.

CLIENT: In a lot of cases. But you know there was a year and a half difference between me and my next younger brother – [00:43:04]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And it just worked out that there was another kid down the neighborhood and he and I were about the same age.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So you know, I was going off and hanging with him and the three of them were left at home.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: So it was clear you know, well it’s like of course they’re going to bond. You know that’s who’s there to play with, you know and that kind of thing. But eventually it just you know, it became that. And it – it still is to a lot of degrees. [00:43:28]

THERAPIST: Yeah, but it’s always you on the outside looking in.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Yeah, that’s –

THERAPIST: Like growing up.

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: Getting married. Right, you’re on the outside looking in.

CLIENT: (sigh) Getting married, say more about that.

THERAPIST: Well, grow – okay, so you know, the idea that you’re not okay, -

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Right?

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Is a powerful theme –

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: When you’re perfectly okay, you know, it’s just not a fit. This – you know, so you’re in this family, your dad’s a mechanic, you go to college. The rest of the family doesn’t go to college. That’s another – [00:43:59]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: You know, you’re not okay. Your younger brother bond, right? Not with you. That’s an emotionally intimate relationship you’re closed out of, right?

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: All right so now you go off and in some ways you’re sort of, as we all are at 18, looking for our identity, -

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And your religious identity, and you know, you get kind of co-opted a bit by –

CLIENT: (chuckle)

THERAPIST: As we all do by various groups, right? You know you get co-opted by the fundamentalist group, and then you know, you meet this young woman who’s you know in distress and you kind of you know, want to do the right thing by her. [00:44:29]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But all – you know, and then you – you marry your wife and again, you’re sort of emotionally shut out, on the outside looking in.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Emotional connection piece –

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And again, the way that you interpret the data is, I’m not okay.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. And there’s – you know I mean in that message, whether – and that’s a – that’s a lifelong message.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: But no, I’m going to throw out that probably the big one – [00:45:06]

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: For me that I had to deal with, or probably still am dealing with, is that I was born with a birth defect –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And I don’t know if you’re aware of this condition, but it’s called hypospadias.

THERAPIST: I have heard of it, I don’t know much about it. You tell me a bit about it.

CLIENT: It’s – it is –

THERAPIST: Hypospadias. Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah, you can look it up. [00:45:28]

THERAPIST: Un-huh.

CLIENT: But it’s a deformity in the penis –

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Where you basically some skin kind of gets kind of grown in a – so there was a you know really minor – you know cosmetic –

THERAPIST: I have heard of it, yes.

CLIENT: Kind of surgery kind of thing that goes on.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But in my family it was never talked about.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, so one of the very first memories that I have, vivid memories that I have as a kid, and I – you know I told my mom – [00:45:59]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Early on, of this memory of being in the hospital, and I can see this train set that I was playing with, -

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And I described – you know I can remember, even though I didn’t know it at the time, I made the connection later, that it was like, oh, I was watching that show, it was the flying nun, it was on television.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So I call these pieces, I have this very vivid memory. I thought it was when I had my tonsils taken out at age five. [00:46:26]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And it wasn’t, it was when I had the surgery when I was two.

THERAPIST: Goodness, that’s an early memory.

CLIENT: Yeah. And it was like – and one of the reasons that I think that it was indelible was that my parents didn’t stay with me overnight –

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: For that visit.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Or they couldn’t and my mom was kind of talking to me about that. So there was that – you know so there’s that piece –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know that – you know I think early on I said that I identified with Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer – [00:47:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah, and now it makes more sense.

CLIENT: And I was like there was this physical deformity.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, and even – even though it wasn’t like Rudolph that he’s wearing it out on his nose –

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s a deformity that you know, you have to deal with for the rest of your life.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And it’s like – so that message –

THERAPIST: But you’re not being told about – talked to about –

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Right, it’s wrapped up in the Christian shame, you know, it’s wrapped up in – [00:47:28]

CLIENT: Well because it’s – it’s sexual, we can’t talk about it.

THERAPIST: It’s sexual we can’t talk about it.

CLIENT: Yeah, right.

THERAPIST: Right. And then of course you all have brothers.

CLIENT: Right, right, right.

THERAPIST: And then you join the boy scouts.

CLIENT: Yeah. Sports was the – you know –

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I went into fifth grade basketball because I was so tall –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Everybody said oh, you’ve got to be a basketball player.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Well that – you know that took me into the locker room.

THERAPIST: Right, right.

CLIENT: It’s like I can’t go there.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know and it was like, oh, you know. So there’s just that, you know, there’s something wrong with you message from the start. [00:48:05]

THERAPIST: Physically, emotionally.

CLIENT: Well, I don’t know about the emotional part. But you know there – the physical piece early on for sure.

THERAPIST: Well the physical piece, but also the, you know, the identity piece and then it becomes an emotional piece, right? This message that there’s something wrong with you. You don’t fit. And you know, [00:48:26]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: There’s an emotional consequence. And it’s you know I’m imaging just how –

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Extraordinarily not only painful that is –

CLIENT: Um, um-hum.

THERAPIST: And how many things you were shut out of –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: This kid who carries this message, -

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: When a parent is supposed to be like, you know sweetie nothing’s wrong with you. We love you just the way you are. And that’s not what you got.

CLIENT: No. No. And – yeah.

THERAPIST: And then you didn’t get it in marriage. Like that’s one of the supposed to be one of the corrective experiences. [00:48:56]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Where, you know, if we didn’t get it growing up, and then we couldn’t find it some places, -

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: You know, then again you –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You hope to marry somebody who, not fixes it, but the relationship –

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Has some healing properties.

CLIENT: Right. Right. And I think that that may have been there early on.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then –

THERAPIST: Do you think this was sorry go ahead with.

CLIENT: And then it you know –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like somebody just shut it off. And then all of my worst fears were confirmed.

THERAPIST: Okay, at which?

CLIENT: You know that – you know when the intimacy stopped. [00:49:28]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know it was like kicking back into the old fear of nobody’s ever going to be able to love me -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Fear.

THERAPIST: How is that to say that out loud?

CLIENT: Oh, um, you know I think I – you know I’ve been able to say that before.

THERAPIST: Um-hum, um-hum.

CLIENT: You know and it’s like oh, I see what’s going on here.

THERAPIST: So you’ve done your work around that before.

CLIENT: Yeah, it’s like –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I clearly see what’s going on in terms of like, yeah, that kicked in here.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know it’s like – and of course there’s going to be a lot of anger – [00:50:01]

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Whatnot around that.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But it’s still there. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Yeah, well, but in some ways if it wasn’t there, or you couldn’t ever touch it, I understand why you try to distance yourself from it in some ways, so it doesn’t consume you, but –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: If it wasn’t there, in some ways it would almost be unhealthier because some part of you, you know is fighting being judged or marginalized or you know, the idea that something is wrong with you when it’s not necessarily something is wrong with you. It’s you know, there’s a whole lot wrong with some of these environments – [00:50:42]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: That you’ve been in.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no I see that.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: You know and I – in – and just in terms of like the whole compassion –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Piece, it’s like yeah, I recognize that you know if I was like – if I was able to be my own parent or something, it’s like – it’s kind of like – [00:51:05]

THERAPIST: Yeah, what would that look like if you were?

CLIENT: Yeah. You know and I’ve had some instances where I’ve tried to do that kind of exercise.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know, kind of with the five year old child kind of thing.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It’s like what would you say to the five year old child, you know –

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And all of those kind of things. And having had three of my own kids –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s just like I would never do that to my kid. (laugh) [00:51:29]

THERAPIST: So how – how do you think some of these experiences have shaped your parenting of your three kids?

CLIENT: I know that’s it’s better.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: I know that it’s better than, you know – I hate to put it on that comparison, but what else have we got really?

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know but, I know that it was a (pause) you know, that we were closer to the kids. [00:51:58]

THERAPIST: You gave better than what you got.

CLIENT: Yeah. Thanks, yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But that’s yeah. And I – and you know certainly being able to talk about sexuality –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And that kind of thing with the kids –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And having a son who is openly gay –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And being excepting and welcoming and it’s like doing everything and really kind of being very con – you know conscious of that.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s like I’m sure that I’ve still fallen down –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: But I want to do everything I can.

THERAPIST: Just in different areas. (laughing) [00:52:29]

CLIENT: (laughing) It’s just like whatever you know, I really want you know, this experience to you know, to be a good – you know I don’t want to feel like – yeah. Well you know, it’s always good to provide job security for counselors. I mean – (chuckle)

THERAPIST: (laughing)

CLIENT: But I hope that their experience wasn’t too –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Traumatic.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: So – but it will be interesting you know, to – I don’t know. To see what it – you know to get the – I’d like to get a report card, you know I don’t know everything. [00:53:00]

THERAPIST: (laughing) Well, you will. We all do.

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: (laughing) Whether they call it that or not.

CLIENT: How’d you do?

THERAPIST: Okay. How – how are you doing today, given everything that we’ve kind of been talking about.

CLIENT: Oh no, I – it’s a positive experience.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: It really is. And I do feel like as much as I know that I’m working on this issue –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: As much as I you know (sigh) you know, I recognize that you know, in doing some of the reflection papers and that kind of thing for classes, I recognized you know, it’s like this is a big one. [00:53:33]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: This is a big issue that I need to continue to work with because I can’t see clients. You know the transference stuff –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: That’s going on.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: It’s like well, I’d really like to have a little bit better handle on this –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Because as much work as I have done on it, I really do feel like yeah – it’s – it’s still – it’s still a big one. There’s a lot of other things that I’ve been able to let go of and are not as big a deal anymore. [00:54:03]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But this one is still there, you know.

THERAPIST: So, you know if I could leave you with a question that I’ll have you think about.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: What if you find out that the messages you’ve received about yourself, not that necessarily have been directly told to you, but the messages that you have received about yourself –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: As you were growing up and a newly married man and into the marriage – [00:54:26]

CLIENT: Um-hum, um-hum, um-hum.

THERAPIST: Were not true. What would that mean?

CLIENT: Well I know that they weren’t true.

THERAPIST: Right. I know that you know intellectually that they weren’t true.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But what if you know, and I will like I said leave you with this theme but –

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, no I understand.

THERAPIST: What if you know they’re not true, but you internalize they’re not true. How would that impact you and what would be different in your life? [00:54:59]

CLIENT: Well I will think about that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Sure.

THERAPIST: Okay. So –

CLIENT: Well thank you.

THERAPIST: Thank you. [00:55:08]

END TRANSCRIPT