TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Gross outside. Ugg.

CLIENT: You know it happens in the fall sometimes.

THERAPIST: It – it does.

CLIENT: It rains.

THERAPIST: So how was your week?

CLIENT: Good.

THERAPIST: All right. Any new thoughts?

CLIENT: (sigh)

THERAPIST: On some of the things we’ve been talking about?

CLIENT: I’m not exactly sure. So I’m kind of hoping we can kind of chase them out a little bit, but –

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I would say that there’s (sigh) a hint of like emotion that’s kind of like under the surface.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know so it’s like I know that there’s there’s stuff there so I think about like you know, the – the thought will arise (sigh) (pause) whatever – whatever it might be, but it’s you know, it may be a variation of you know, this didn’t work out exactly the way I thought it would, or you know, kind of the you know, the why me questions. You know those kind of things. [00:01:16]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So – and again, not that I’m necessarily trying to repress that, it’s just kind of like taking stock. It’s like okay.

THERAPIST: Um-hum. [00:01:25]

CLIENT: So that’s – that’s the question that’s arising right now. Or that’s the feeling or that’s there. So I also recognize that underneath that, you know there’s – there’s – there’s some emotion.

THERAPIST: If you could put a name to the emotion, what would it be?

CLIENT: (sigh) hum, hum, hum, hum – I would probably say sadness. You know that – you know it’s just like well this seems a little sad. This seems a little sad that it didn’t work out or you know – yeah. [00:02:04]

THERAPIST: Say more about sadness.

CLIENT: Hum, hum, hum – hum, hum, hum. I think that some of what we talked about last week, I think in terms of – hum – (pause) you know trying to categorize or trying to describe you know, who I am. [00:02:36]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know the type of personality that I think that I am. You know somebody who feels passionate, likes to be – would like to be perhaps in a relationship where it felt that kind of energy, you know and it’s just like wow. [00:02:57]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know? It’s like sort of that sense of being like well, sort of feel stuck with the way the situation is right now.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Obviously not being able to see the clear direction out of the quicksand, but just sort of like, I don’t know if quicksand is necessarily the right word. I don’t feel like I’m sinking.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know it’s more of a sense of like hum, kind of stuck, I’m not sure which way to go or how to get out of this. So yeah, and just feeling sad that it’s like hum. Yeah. Or – yeah. [00:03:36]

THERAPIST: What would it be like if you let yourself feel sad?

CLIENT: Well I think that I have. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: (pause) I think I usually end up getting to the place of like well, I can feel sad, doesn’t really change the fact that – doesn’t seem to change the situation. [00:04:04]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: It’s like well, I can feel sad and be struck or I can get on and do something else.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Doesn’t really change the situation, but I feel better. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: You mean by distracting.

CLIENT: I – yeah, I guess distracting. I don’t not – yeah, I – I guess. I – I think more that I’ve kind of gotten to a place of recognizing that (sigh) you know, sad’s the story here. [00:04:37]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s like who says it’s sad, you know. I – there are days when I – when I can – I can sit back and I can go oh, well this isn’t sad at all.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: This is a tremendously liberating place to be.

THERAPIST: Which part of it?

CLIENT: I mean being in a relationship where you know, you don’t have maybe that – that – those you know and look at other relationships and it’s like – it’s like wow, there’s a lot of expectations and you know, people have a little bit tighter sense of like what the rules are or what the norms are in the relationship. [00:05:15]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I’m like wow. You know things are really you know, pretty loose here, so it’s like shouldn’t really feel like that’s a bad thing you know. (chuckle) So it’s kind of like I can look at the conditions maybe from a place of you know, being objective about it a little bit and recognizing well, if I go down this road and I – if I go with this interpretation, I can go hum, this is sad. Or if I go down this road it’s like, you know, this is kind of good. (laugh) [00:05:45]

THERAPIST: Well – yeah, so I definitely hear what you’re saying. I guess the pattern that makes me feel sad is the fact that you have to for so much of your life from what you’ve told me, continue to minimize your own feelings because people have not really let you feel them. [00:06:10]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: So now you’re in a pattern where you yourself have to say well, it’s not sad. But it’s deeply sad because it’s not what you wanted it to be. I mean and sometimes you have to grieve what you wanted it to be, you know.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It – you know you say well it doesn’t change it. Well, no it doesn’t change it, but it distracting yourself from it, is sometimes a good strategy, but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s there. And when you look back over a lifetime with someone, and it didn’t turn out at all what you wanted it to be, that’s deeply sad and very angry.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And the fact that you – you know, based on you know your belief system and value system you know, I don’t know who wouldn’t feel stuck. Right? [00:06:59]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because from the outside looking in you say well, you know we don’t fight and you know she doesn’t put these restrictions on me. But sometimes you would want a fight and some restrictions versus a lack of emotional intimacy.

CLIENT: (sigh) Yeah I suppose that you know if the – yeah I don’t know. Hum, it – that’d be an interesting question to sit with, but I think – yeah. Emotional intimacy it’s like well, it’s been out of the picture for such a long time, it’s difficult to even you know, kind of put myself there you know. So yeah, you know, feeling that sadness and you sort of you know, it’s like the – you know the situation being what it is and it’s like (sigh) how do you find – how do you find emotional intimacy? [00:07:53]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know in the current set – (chuckle) you know in the set up that we have. It’s kind of like well shit. (laughing)

THERAPIST: Can – well – yeah. Well can you – so can you describe for me – give me a typical week at home.

CLIENT: Oh. Well yeah.

THERAPIST: With your interactions with your wife, yeah.

CLIENT: Considering – yeah. Considering that you know we’ve just shifted in terms of like being officially empty nesters –

THERAPIST: Okay, right.

CLIENT: So the youngest one is off at Indiana University, is a freshman. And he isn’t coming home nearly as often as the older two did. [00:08:29]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: He’s like oh, I got this thing.

THERAPIST: Right, right.

CLIENT: You know (chuckle) So – yeah. So the kids are pretty much gone you know. I’ve got an activity on Monday evenings. I’m on class on Tuesday evenings. We’re together at choir practice on Wednesday evenings. She’s the director.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: (sigh) Then she goes you know and spends the rest of the evening with girlfriends after the choir. Thursday I’m in class up here. [00:09:05]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Fridays, so far since the beginning of the school year we have hopped in the car and gone to see one of the kids or something over the weekend.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So it’s been a lot of traveling. So we have had maybe a little bit more time actually in the same proximity. [00:09:30]

THERAPIST: Tell me what that experience is like. Driving together, going to see the kids. What are you talking about?

CLIENT: Well, I can back – I can back up to the last time, which may not be 100 percent typical, but it’s like – huh (chuckle) she did like calendar stuff for almost the entire trip down to –

THERAPIST: Are you driving or is she?

CLIENT: I was driving.

THERAPIST: Okay and she says we’ve got this, this date and – [00:09:56]

CLIENT: Yeah and she’s doing stuff and she’s making phone calls and she’s doing e-mails. So you know it’s just like a lot of you know calendar work. So it was utilizing that time to – yeah. So –

THERAPIST: And what do you want it to be?

CLIENT: Well, what I – yeah. And again I’ve gotten to that place of just like okay.

THERAPIST:I know what you’ve accepted.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: But in your fantasy world, what would it look like?

CLIENT: It would like well why don’t we – why don’t we have a meaningful conversation about anything you know. [00:10:29]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Where you at? You know, what’s important to you? What’s you know – so I feel like it’s been (chuckle) a long time. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And if you initiated that conversation, what would happen do you think? I’m not suggesting that you do, but right.

CLIENT: (sigh) Yeah, yeah, I know. (pause) Yeah I think that I don’t know. I’m not 100 percent sure I know anymore. [00:11:01]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know I think I’ve just gotten myself to this point – this habitual place of you know and I recognize that it’s – it comes from a lot of years of being like hurt and it’s like okay. You know I’m done with that. I’m not going there anymore. You know it’s like if we want to talk about the weather, fine. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: But I’m not going into that place again of like yeah. You know so I can be – I can sit here and get angry that you’re going to fill up this time and space with something other than getting close to interpersonal communication. Or I can just whatever, you know.

THERAPIST: How – so being hurt from her looks like what Seamus? [00:11:51]

CLIENT: (chuckling) I – yeah, and this might be you know putting the spin on sitting and thinking about it you know for a lot of years. But I feel like (big sigh) (pause) Yeah I think it’s just that place of like recognizing that no matter how I approach from whatever angle or direction I approach, there is – you know I keep thinking that the force field isn’t going to be up everywhere. [00:12:32]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But it’s – it’s up pretty much everywhere.

THERAPIST: I’m trying to get a picture of your approach so I can sort of –

CLIENT: Oh I would say it’s probably really, really ineffective. (laughing)

THERAPIST: No. You know it’s – you’re the – it’s not – this is not an evaluation of the approach. I guess what I’m trying to see is, I’m trying to picture you having a conversation and what happens when you get rejected? So you try to broach a topic, how does she reject you? What happens? [00:13:04]

CLIENT: Hum.

THERAPIST: Because this is a pattern and I guess I’m just sort of trying to get – what does the pattern look like for you?

CLIENT: That’s it yeah. Hum? (sigh) Well I think – I think that I often times will shut down because I don’t ever feel like there’s a sense of (pause) (sigh) I don’t – I think that I – I think that there’s certain fear that you know my opinion, my – yeah whatever it is that I have to say is not going to be accepted. [00:14:02]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And it’s kind of like there’s that sense of hum, it’s here’s my – here’s my opinion, here’s my idea. This is the you know – it kind of feels like this is the way it is.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So give me – give me an example.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. (sigh) I’m just – I’m just trying to put words to a feeling as opposed to having some kind of a – a concrete example. (pause) Yeah – the only thing I’m – I’m able to kind latch onto right now is maybe just a recent conversation about you know, her being upset that none of the kids went to church anymore. [00:15:04]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And you know and I was kind of in that place of like you know feeling like well hey you know, they’re 21 or approaching 21 and you know, and I’m not really sure it’s going to be helpful to push.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: So you know that kind of thing. And I’m not exactly sure what the wording was back, but it was more of a sense of you know, you know this is how I think it should be. You know definitely you know, she’s able to express her emotion a lot more clearly and so I’m not really sure I felt like I was necessarily being heard. [00:15:50]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know –

THERAPIST: Kind of like oh, whatever.

CLIENT: Right. And you know because I’m you know trying to be – because I have gone down this other path you know, where I’m kind of walking this parallel path you know, doing this study of Taoism – you know so like I know, even though we’re not talking about it, it’s like you’re kind of responsible for this. [00:16:19]

THERAPIST: Okay, so you think that’s what’s behind it.

CLIENT: Well, I – I yeah.

THERAPIST: You don’t go to church as much as you should, and so they’re getting this stuff from you.

CLIENT: And you’re not – you’re not – you’re not standing there with me encouraging them to go to church and it’s just like you know, whether or not I heard those words exactly, you know it’s – it’s been there. [00:16:42]

THERAPIST: Sure. Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know that kind of feeling. That kind of sentiment comes out and you know you’re kind of – I know you hear what you want to hear kind of thing, but it’s like okay. You know something will be said over here that was like oh, I get it, that was a message for me. (laugh) [00:17:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Um-hum. And – and how often do you – does that happen in your interactions with her?

CLIENT: Not often. I think again, you know I think that we’ve – what I said before, that we’ve learned how to be good roommates.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know and it’s like I see her in the morning, you know we have 10 or 15 minutes in the morning, on most mornings. And then depending on what day of the week it is, I may not see her for a day or two, or whatever. So it’s not like – you know we did set Wednesday after – or Wednesday evening to try to get together for dinner before choir practice [00:17:38]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So that’s really (chuckle) you know so that you know in terms of like it’s – it’s safe time, you know that’s – it’s like public space, so yeah.

THERAPIST: Do you guys sleep in the same bed?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. And how is that?

CLIENT: It’s two people sleeping in the same bed. Yeah. I mean there hasn’t been a sexual intimacy (pause) it’s my daughter’s bed, in seven years. [00:18:17]

THERAPIST: Seven years is a long time.

CLIENT: Yeah. So yeah. There was a lack of –

THERAPIST: What do you do with that piece?

CLIENT: (sigh) Nothing.

THERAPIST: Um-hum. Nothing at all?

CLIENT: Well nothing that includes anybody else.

THERAPIST: Well, okay.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But masturbation.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But – and I would say that that is not – you know and (chuckle) I don’t know what regular or anything like that but it’s like – yeah, that’s the only – [00:18:53]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well that would fulfill a physical need, but not necessarily an emotional one.

CLIENT: Right. And you – and you recognize that.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s like well this isn’t about – this isn’t about the physical. You know it’s like this really is about you know having some kind of an emotional, intimate relationship.

THERAPIST: And is that something the two of you talk about together ever?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: No. Because I’m wondering what she does with that piece as well.

CLIENT: I believe that she has an intimate relationship.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know.

THERAPIST: So do you think that she is cheating?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But her needs for an emotional relationship are being fulfilled by a close friend. [00:19:35]

THERAPIST: Um-hum. Male, Female?

CLIENT: Female friend.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: (sigh) So.

THERAPIST: Do you think there’s anything romantic in that relationship?

CLIENT: You know this is you know, when you’re – when you’re sitting there you know trying to figure out why and what’s going on, and everything that’s kind of floating around in your head, and you’re creating all kinds of wild scenarios and stories, it’s like – and then you start to look back a little bit, and it’s like now I’m starting to put little pieces together of like what I know about stories from her past and it’s like, yeah, you know, maybe – maybe there’s – you know and I don’t understand. [00:20:25]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I don’t understand the world of bisexuality.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I’m starting to get to understand a little bit of the world of you know my son being you know male homosexual.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I’ve got some other friends that are. But I really don’t know anybody and I really haven’t taken any time to understand that. Not that I think that my wife would, or is. Maybe she would, but I don’t know if she – (sigh) [00:20:52]

THERAPIST: So you think their relationship is not necessarily sexual.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But there may be some romantic overtones.

CLIENT: (pause) Boy I don’t know. There have been a couple of times where I just feel like wow. Wow would you look at that. (chuckle) You know it’s like everything about this relationship looks like what we used to have. [00:21:13]

THERAPIST: Tell me.

CLIENT: (chuckle) You know just in terms of like the amount of phone time. The amount of time together. You know it’s like – you know there’s part of me earlier on that was like really attached to the you know, the Christian story. Enough that it’s like well, this is not Corinthians 13. You don’t keep score. [00:21:33]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know and I’m like oh, okay, so I need to let go of that. But it’s like damn it, I just want to do a time study.

THERAPIST: Yeah, okay.

CLIENT: Let’s do a – let’s do a little bar graph here in terms of like –

THERAPIST: Well let’s. Well –

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: You know it’s – it’s interesting because as I – as I hear you telling your story, it’s always interjected how you have to adjust or check yourself or distract yourself or you know, don’t do tit for tat. [00:22:04]

CLIENT: I know, yeah.

THERAPIST: And that’s great

CLIENT: (chuckle)

THERAPIST: You know but that’s not always about the real human experience of being hurt or feeling shit on, or feeling jealous rightfully so, or angry –

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Or even sort of looking at your – you’re – I think it’s great that you’re holding yourself to a higher standard. But I think you again dismiss your own real experiences. And that would be painfully lonely, right? And angering, right? [00:22:34]

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Right?

CLIENT: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

THERAPIST: To be married to a person who – because all couples have problems, but this huge disconnect when you want to connect. And now you know you suspect that she is getting these needs met somewhere else.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And whether or not there’s a sexual component, you’re the one who’s on the losing end. [00:22:51]

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, yeah, right.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And I guess – I hope in here, you feel like you can actually give voice to whatever you know, whatever you’re telling yourself is socially unacceptable and accept the fact that you know you felt cheated. Because I would feel completely cheated. [00:23:09]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: 25 years of marriage and you describe yourselves as you know good roommates.

CLIENT: (chuckle)

THERAPIST: And that’s not what you want. Was that what you wanted? And that’s not what you want.

CLIENT: No, no. And yeah. [00:23:24]

THERAPIST: It seems unjust.

CLIENT: (sigh) Yeah you know, and as much as – you know I am hearing what you’re saying, you know. I also don’t want to necessarily you know – I know that my own lack of communication early on in the relationship helped get me to here to. [00:23:45]

THERAPIST: Sure, sure. And I am not -

CLIENT: I’m not –

THERAPIST: Demonizing your wife. And I am not sort of hearing things in a one sided way. Right. But I guess because you are so quick to minimize your own feels or dismiss them or say well I shouldn’t be keeping score. And I’m kind of like well if you’re a human being – [00:24:05]

CLIENT: (laugh) Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know every once and a while, human beings even good ones keep score.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. No and I get it you know and that and I do. You know and it’s like well, I’m pretty sure you know from my informal score keeping that the bar graph would look a little bit more like what you know our current economic situation you know is. [00:24:32]

THERAPIST: Explain.

CLIENT: In terms of like you know the economic divide. You know most of Americans you know were earning about this much money. And the top one percent is so far off the chart – (chuckle) in terms like –

THERAPIST: You mean in terms of you guys, how well you’re doing financially? [00:24:48]

CLIENT: No, I’m talking about time spent together.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So just backing up two steps and looking at that time study. You know and it’s like yeah, you know, so and it was the kind of thing that even when the kids were at home, you know the kids and I were even having this conversation. It’s like really? Mom’s over at Lisa’s house again.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know it’s kind of like it became the kind of thing that it’s just like okay. [00:25:19]

THERAPIST: Can you give voice to your suspicions or thoughts here about what you think is happening?

CLIENT: Yeah. I – for me it seemed very clear that that happened at the time that my daughter was leaving for school, for college. And –

THERAPIST: The oldest?

CLIENT: The oldest.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And you know my wife is the – the youngest of her family. She’s now orphaned. Her worst fear is that all of the people that she loves are going to die. And they have. [00:25:56]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know so that fear has been realized a number of different times. And she’s experienced a lot of death and a lot of loss in her life. And I think that my daughter Penelope going off to school because the real concrete confirmation that these people that I love are going to leave me. [00:26:20]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And so it – you know this is me interpreting, but you know what it seemed like was okay, well I’m going to go over to Lisa’s house because she has two younger daughters over there and they’re not going to leave right away. [00:26:37]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know so it’s just like – it’s too painful –

THERAPIST: But what about you?

CLIENT: It’s too painful for me to be here because I have to confront the reality that everybody’s leaving me.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Um-hum. But what about you? You’re the one person that doesn’t leave. [00:26:53]

CLIENT: (pause) (sigh) Yeah, I’m not 100 percent sure about that, you know it was like – and I’m trying to remember. I’m – I’m kind of thinking my – my moving deeper into you know the world of meditation and kind of going down that path you know, was more of a result of trying to deal with you know – [00:27:26]

THERAPIST: That’s an emotional leaving. I understand that. Or an emotional disconnection. But you haven’t left. I mean there’s an emotional divide which is a form of leaving, but you haven’t left Right?

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And so I guess when I say what about me? That’s what I’d be thinking. So the kids leave because you raised them to leave, to take care of themselves, right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I’d be thinking as the spouse, well what about me? I’m still here.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Right? We’re in this thing together. And I’m not leaving. And yet she left you. [00:27:57]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So – and not being – not being able or if – skilled in being able to communicate that. You know and – and my worst – my worst fears are that you know I don’t want anybody to be upset with me because then they’re not going to love me. [00:28:28]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know so I’m going to play – I’m going to play all these games so that you’re not upset with me.

THERAPIST: But she’s upset with you. And you’re upset with her. [00:28:38]

CLIENT: Yeah you know and it’s like –

THERAPIST: So you guys are holding this, I don’t know, hostility maybe? Anger? Towards one another because –

CLIENT: Probably.

THERAPIST: It didn’t work out for either one of you the way you thought it –

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And neither one of you can talk about it.

CLIENT: Yeah, pretty much.

THERAPIST: Which is imprisoning.

CLIENT: (chuckle) Yeah, there you go.

THERAPIST: Yeah, because then you have to share a bed with someone.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:28:59]

THERAPIST: Which is an intimate act that makes a mockery of the fact that it’s an intimate act, because it’s not.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: That’s a lot.

CLIENT: Sure. Trick or treat. (laugh) It’s unfair.

THERAPIST: It’s very unfair.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so it you know it’s been you know I recognize that it’s like – yeah, I’m just not sure you know, it’s like well, I’m not – not that you know guys can’t you know figure out how to have close intimate relationships, but there’s just not that you know – [00:29:54]

THERAPIST: It’s not only a lot harder but it’s far less socially sanctioned for men to have that kind of emotionally intimate relationship with other men.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: At least for –

CLIENT: I think it probably in other cultures it works. But it doesn’t work so well in this culture.

THERAPIST: Not for heterosexual men.

CLIENT: No. So I do have you know, or have had you know, a few female friends. [00:30:20]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But it’s like okay, based upon our cultural norms, this is about as far as this relationship’s going to go.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know and that’s frustrating, and that’s sad. And it’s like well, whoever came up with this plan, well this kind of sucks a lot. (laugh) You know like – [00:30:38]

THERAPIST: So the fact that you know –

CLIENT: Shit.

THERAPIST: You’re married you know in name and values.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah.

THERAPIST: But not in an emotional sense. And you can’t get close because of the marriage. [00:30:55]

CLIENT: Yeah. And I’m – and I’m like not that I would want a marriage relationship with these other people, but it’s like okay, you know, at some point here you know – the you know this is not culturally acceptable anymore, you know.

THERAPIST: Sure, sure.

CLIENT: I’m not going to be able to go and spend as much time you know, with these other friends, as my wife does with her friend. [00:31:21]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know it’s like I can’t just go take a weekend and – okay, here’s a quick aside.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: My wife and I used to get to get away. Like we would go quarterly. You know like once a season we would go take a long weekend.

THERAPIST: That’s nice, that’s great.

CLIENT: So about the time you know my daughter goes off to school, all of a sudden Lisa ends up becoming the partner to go on these weekend trips. And I’m like (chuckle) [00:31:55]

THERAPIST: And you’re like what?

CLIENT: Yeah. Just – yeah, I was swallowing a lot of anger, you know and -

THERAPIST: Why swallow?

CLIENT: (sigh) I don’t know, I think I just got – I got to this place that just like – well I think it was also on you know, coming to the place or coming on the heels of that we had that conversation once like you know what – what the – in relationship to the sex abuse scandal. [00:32:31]

THERAPIST: Yeah, okay.

CLIENT: And it’s like you know, after one of those weekends where we had been together, you know it was kind of clearly we were – you know that sexual relations had come down to like four times out of the year. And like these were important weekends because this was the only time that we – we did, you know we had the time or the space for this kind of relationship. [00:32:58]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And it was after one of those weekends, she’s like I just don’t think that we can do this right now. I just can’t – I can’t go there right now.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So I mean really that was about the extent of the conversation, I’m like – you know so it was like I could see that it was like – I’m going to use a Star Trek analogy.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Because I don’t know it’s like – lowered the force field long enough to be able to tell you that piece of information. And then the force field went back up. [00:33:26]

THERAPIST: To not be able to have a conversation about it.

CLIENT: Yeah. That’s what it felt like on the inside you know.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And you know I played that game. It’s like instead of me being you know, self-confident enough or self-assertive enough, or caring enough about you know, how do I make this – you know, it’s like well okay. I just kind of sat with it. [00:33:50]

THERAPIST: But you do deeply care.

CLIENT: I do. And you know –

THERAPIST: I mean you’re not – you’re not apathetic at all. There’s no – this is not apathetic. This is not apathy.

CLIENT: (sigh)

THERAPIST: But there is anger and pain, it’s not apathy.

CLIENT: Well yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean so I guess a question comes to mind, if it could be, if you thought that there was a chance to have a friendship and an emotional and sexual relationship with you wife, would you want to have that with her? [00:34:22]

CLIENT: (sigh) You know I guess part of the – I (pause) I think – I think yes.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I mean to really be honest with you about it, I’m not 100 percent sure I can say yes.

THERAPIST: Yeah, well that –

CLIENT: I mean there’s – I, it’s like shit. There’s a lot – there’s a lot of damage (chuckle)

THERAPIST: There’s a lot of damage, sure.

CLIENT: There’s a lot of damage, there’s a lot of crap here that has to be cleaned up before, and like –

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

CLIENT: Yeah, so I don’t – I recognize that it’s conditional. You know it’s like well yes, but I think for me the biggest piece is right now, it’s like I really had the feeling like this is somebody who really isn’t looking for my affection right now. And I’m like well the last thing that I want is to be the guy that’s in the position of like trying to make you like me. (laugh) [00:35:16]

THERAPIST: Sure. You know, and you – you laugh.

CLIENT: I’m like well that really sucks. (laughing)

THERAPIST: Well you laugh but it’s such a – it’s a painful thing and I get that, right. But, you know I’m thinking a couple of things. You know I’m imaging there’s – it’s like you’re screaming from the inside. But if you, you know – so you know because you – it’s like being imprisoned. You know you mention the analogy of a force field, right? [00:35:40]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so I almost wonder, and I am certainly not suggesting this at all. But you know I almost wonder what do you have to lose by saying look, I’m not happy. This is not what I – I am struggling every day because this looks like none of what I wanted it to. Right?

And there are times I want to emotionally connect to you and we are living these separate lives where we completely freeze each other out. I mean we just live a mockery of what we started out doing. [00:36:17]

CLIENT: Sure, sure.

THERAPIST: You know I mean, as scary as that would be, you know you would at least get to release some of that and see what happens. Now, of course you say that then there has to – then either nothing happens which is bad, something happens which is scary, I mean, but what would it be like?

CLIENT: (sigh) Yeah.

THERAPIST: To crack the force field enough to state your own truth. [00:36:41]

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah I think I recognize you know, I think I recognize enough to know that yeah. If you ever really want to crake this, you’re going to have to do that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. That’s what I mean about screaming from the inside. It’s such a silent scream.

CLIENT: Yeah. I recognize that yeah. It’s one of the big – it’s one of the big dragons. It’s one of the – it’s like okay. [00:37:09]

THERAPIST: But Seamus you’ve been silent for years.

CLIENT: Yeah I know, I know.

THERAPIST: And it’s killing you emotionally. I mean that’s the – I mean that’s the most painful piece that it’s killing you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It’s like a thousand cuts on the inside, right? And so you know, my guess is you do find comfort in meditation. And you do find comfort in Taoism. But your voice is still – I mean you have had this whole culture your whole life of being silenced. Allowing yourself to be silenced or being silenced. Not giving your own emotion weight. [00:37:48]

CLIENT: Hum.

THERAPIST: And so in some ways it gives other people permission to not give it weight. But it is equally important as everyone else is. You know and at least if you state your truth, and maybe if you think about it we can work on how you might go about doing that. But you don’t have to be screaming from the inside. If you’re going to scream, you might as well damn scream.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: You know because at least you’re not stuck.

CLIENT: Yeah Stuck – stuck is not good.

THERAPIST: Stuck sucks.

CLIENT: And I recognize that stuck isn’t going to help anybody. [00:38:23]

THERAPIST: Yeah but really it’s about you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know I mean tell me what that experience might be like for you as you imagine it.

CLIENT: (sigh) I think in the past I would have said it was probably the scariest thing that I could imagine. [00:38:44]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I think it’s probably not as scary as I used to –

THERAPIST: Because?

CLIENT: I’m not exactly sure you know that there – there’s probably been some emotional, or some maturation, or you know some whatever, you know. [00:39:04]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Just getting to the place of like well screw it. You know it’s like I’m 50 years old, you know. I can do this.

THERAPIST: Um-hum. And 50 is young. So can you imagine, because you can forseeably do this for 25 more plus years.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Right, and we just get older, you know. We didn’t get different unless we make it different.

CLIENT: Right. Yep.

THERAPIST: You know, so –

CLIENT: Well I get that.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and so you know if you look at it, you know, that might be a scarier truth that if you don’t speak your truth, that you could have another 25 years. Because I wonder if, and I don’t know, because I don’t know your wife. But I’m going to speak this out loud, you tell me your thoughts on it. [00:39:47]

I wonder if your wife is using the marriage as a cover of normalcy. Everything’s okay. Appearances are.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And I think as the spouse that would piss me off. Because she gets the cover while she gets to go have an emotionally intimate relationship, if not a sexual relationship. We don’t know what’s going on right. [00:40:08]

And if you, you know, we can talk about women’s sexuality and some of the things, and I teach human sexuality class. Women’s sexuality is more fluid then men’s often times, right. On a continuum of heterosexual, homosexual and bisexuality, you know women are at least more likely to admit being bisexual, right.

And so I don’t know what’s happening in that relationship. Women have the freedom to be deeply, emotionally intimate with one another without a sexual component. But that might be there. It might. And I think you’ve already thought of that. [00:40:39]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. So I – I imagine that you’re suffering in silence, you know, accept your own rage within you and depression is deafening. And she gets to use the marriage as a cover while you don’t get your needs met.

CLIENT: Um-hum. [00:40:55]

THERAPIST: Right? And you started the discussion about Lisa with saying well she’s who – this is how we used to be. And that would just piss me off on so many levels. Because you don’t get any parts of your needs met. And the marriage gets to be a cover for your wife, you know. And I don’t think it’s this simplistic, but you know while she can have these intimate needs met while you are suffering. That’s the part that’s really unjust. [00:41:21]

CLIENT: Um-hum, um-hum.

THERAPIST: But you – you can state your truth. You don’t have to be in silence. It won’t change her behavior, but it might change things for you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I really yeah. I really – I feel like I’m getting to that place even though I’m not you know I’m not sure I can walk out tomorrow and do that. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: Sure. Sure.

CLIENT: But I’m getting to the place where I feel like yeah, you know I need to be able to say this for me.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And in full recognition that nothing – nothing will change. Or if it does change, it might be for the worse. (laughing) Well, I recognize this. [00:42:01]

THERAPIST: Okay, well and I can see the worse yeah, what would that look like?

CLIENT: Well I’m not sure what worse would be except that you know, you know that the divide is even bigger you know. (pause) Yeah. But again, you know I have a friend (chuckle) So there is an aside right here.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I have a close friend who is you know, we were friends for – oh, I don’t know we’ve been friends for six, eight years. [00:42:31]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: The last couple of years, within the last two years, you know he’s come out to me that his a transgendered woman. How do I say that?

THERAPIST: Okay. So he’s male to female?

CLIENT: He’s a male – yeah.

THERAPIST: So he’s physically male?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: But inside he’s always felt that he’s female. Okay.

CLIENT: Yes, that’s it.

THERAPIST: Okay, okay.

CLIENT: I can’t say the words right, but –

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, okay.

CLIENT: And you know, I’m – I’m you know I’m great with that. And I’m supportive of all that, but I also see in him you know it’s like my God, you’re living this life. [00:43:04]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know and it’s like –

THERAPIST: Like what? He’s living this life what?

CLIENT: (chuckle) You know it’s like this parallel thing, it’s like well look, wouldn’t it just be easier to like be out with it? (laugh)

THERAPIST: Sure. Sure. So he’s living this life of being trapped.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Yes. Because his brain is one thing and his –

CLIENT: And you know, he’s you know, he’s 60 years old. He has three grown children. He has a young daughter, you know, his wife is actually fairly supportive of him. [00:43:42]

THERAPIST: Yeah. But she – okay, so he told his wife?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay, but that’s the big difference in some ways. Somebody knows his story.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: You know, no, not somebody. You do and his wife does. Right?

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And you keep your story to yourself, which is you know –

CLIENT: Yeah, pretty much. [00:44:03]

THERAPIST: And you know, I’m glad you have shared it with me. But you know so in some ways, you know, yours is worse.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Because he at least has told his wife. He’s told a close friend.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And the telling of one’s story is a powerful thing. And you have kept your story close because you keep trying to rationalize or understand or rework it or be empathetic to your wife’s trauma. But you yourself are traumatized by what has happened in your marriage. [00:44:34]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean it’s been traumatizing.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, and I get that. You know and it’s – you recognize that you know it’s like you know there’s a kind of this trust relationship that’s been built up and then it’s like naw, no trust anymore. (chuckle) [00:44:58]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: So that yeah. That’s certainly traumatizing.

THERAPIST: Well, it is. But it doesn’t – you can’t change her and that is the frustrating part. But your own silence is painful.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Right?

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And I think that’s the part that is – because you do have a choice. You don’t have to stay in this marriage. You don’t. Right?

CLIENT: Well –

THERAPIST: And I am not suggesting you should get a divorce. [00:45:30]

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: I don’t suggest such things. But I’m saying sometimes you can – if you recognize you do have a choice to speak or to not speak. To say what your truth is or not. To divorce or to remain married. Sometimes just the recognizing that you do actually do have a choice.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: You know because you could decide I’m done and get divorced tomorrow.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: You could do it.

CLIENT: Right. Right. No, I get it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And what – I mean have you ever thought about that?

CLIENT: Oh, sure. [00:46:01]

THERAPIST: Okay, and sort of what – what are your thoughts about it?

CLIENT: You know I think that all of the stories and the baggage that I have about (chuckle) being the oldest and the most responsible, and blah, blah, blah, and all of those other, you know things, you know I’m dragging around too much of that baggage as well. I mean it’s like yeah. It’s like –

THERAPIST: Yeah but this is – this is not irresponsible. We can unpack some of that, right.

CLIENT: (chuckling)

THERAPIST: But that is not – you know you have all of this shit on your shoulders about who you’re supposed to be and what you’re supposed to be doing, and how you’re supposed to feel. [00:46:40]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And you know why you should remain married and why – you know and some of that’s true, right. And our values are extremely important part of who we are, so I don’t want to –

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: You know dismiss that. I’m not you know again, I’m not suggesting divorce. But I’m saying you know that in some ways you have – you’re in the fight of your life. You have to fight for yourself. [00:47:03]

CLIENT: No I get it. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Your spirit your sole, you have to fight for your own happiness, which you do deserve.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You do not have to stay. And if you do decide to stay, you certainly don’t have to remain silent.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think that that – I think that that that starts to get at putting some words to what I feel.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s like you know even engaging in this process. It’s like (sign) it’s like okay, you know it’s like I’m having this relation – you know this conversation with myself. Okay, if you’re going to do this, if you’re going to stick it out, well you need to figure out you know some way to be you know, and what’s the word I’m looking for (pause) not congruent. True to yourself, what’s another word for that? [00:48:04]

THERAPIST: Yeah. True to yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. But I -

THERAPIST: You know, oh, yeah. It could be congruent, but it’s –

CLIENT: Whatever. You got the point that it’s like look, if you’re going to do this, fine. But it’s like man up. You know be you. You know that kind of feeling.

THERAPIST: Um-hum, um-hum.

CLIENT: So yeah. You know I think that I’m – I think that I recognize the work that has to be done.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know and it’s like trying to gear up for starting an exercise program. You know how many days do you sit around and like okay, I’m going to get my – here’s my new shoes. [00:48:43]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And okay, I need a you know a sweat suit. And it’s like okay (hard breath) bracing up for this, you know it’s like I can do this. It’s not going to be easy.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Sure.

CLIENT: It’s going to be hard work. But I recognize it’s like yeah, this is. And I know that the confrontation is not really with my wife. [00:49:05]

THERAPIST: It’s with you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And your own demons.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And it – I you know I think that’s insightful and you are a deeply insightful person. But this is, it starts from your parents. And all of that, this continual being silenced, this you know who you’re supposed to be.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: And in some ways 50 can be liberating. You know 50 can be liberating because you can say to yourself, you know what? [00:49:32]

CLIENT: Well really, yeah.

THERAPIST: You know people have told me who I’m supposed to be and that is a bunch of bull shit. I don’t have to do that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know I can really be me and that is okay. And some ways the standing up for yourself you know, maybe to make it less scary does not have to start with a deep heartfelt conversation. But it can be you know, you have a discussion let’s say are we going to go see the kids. Or she’s says I’m not happy with you know the fact that the kids aren’t going to church anymore. And you know, you state your peace and you feel blown off. [00:50:05]

And you can say hey, don’t blow me off. You know, I feel like our children are old enough to make good decisions with the values we have taught them. I felt dismissed there. And then let it go. But it can start with the small things. It doesn’t have to start with a huge conversation.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Tell me your thoughts about that. [00:50:26]

CLIENT: No I recognize that I think that the decision to get involved, or to do this counseling program, it was something that I really was feeling strongly compelled to do.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: I started having conversations and talking to other people about what I was feeling and it was like I’m really kind of thinking I’d like to do this, you know. You know I’ve been running my own business for 13 years and it’s just like I’m at the end of that road you know. It’s like there’s not – there’s no. [00:51:02]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it’s like well if I really put a lot of time and energy into this, I’m sure I can continue to make money. But there’s no heart and soul in this anymore. And that’s kind of important to me.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: You know to get up in the morning, you know and it’s like so I talked to enough people and it’s like well what do you think? And it’s like well, yeah, I think you’d be good at that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I just finally got to the place where I’m like yeah, this is what I want to do. So it was interesting, I talked to all these other people, but I told my wife. [00:51:31]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It’s like you know this is what I’m going to do.

THERAPIST: And her response was?

CLIENT: Well because it came out of you know left field for her, she was like what? What? You know and like are you sure you can’t do this, you know like could we wait like three years until the kids are out of you know school, so that we’re not trying to pay for you know, all of this college at one time. And you know so I know she’s coming at it from the whole financial aspect of it. (chuckle) [00:52:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But of all the people I talked to, she’s the only one that wasn’t like encouraging.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know so it’s taken a while and I think she’s on board in terms of like at least somewhat supportive of that, but.

THERAPIST: But in some ways that’s a small way of standing up for yourself. It’s kind of actually a pretty big way. It’s not a small way. Because you decided you needed to do this for yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. And it really – and I did it in a way that was probably atypical of what I did before. It’s like okay, I know if I go through the normal channels of the way I would – I’m going to talk it over with her and eventually I’m going to get to this place of like well, she’s going to get upset about that you know, so I’m just planning this all in my head. And she’s going to get upset about this and I’m going to back down. [00:52:46]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And I – I’m not want to do that. I just want to go for this. This is what I want to do. So it was like (sigh) so that was a little gutsy I suppose.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: For me, but I yeah. It was, I did it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And here I am. And I’m still living to tell the tell and all that stuff. [00:53:08]

THERAPIST: And here you are. Right.

CLIENT: So.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean I think there’s a lesson in that.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I know that it’s there.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know and again I feel like I know that this is – this is the dragon that I’ve got to fight you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I do wonder where you got reinforced for the backing down? It didn’t start with your wife. It’s there now. You know and maybe that’s something next time we’ve got to look at. Where you got reinforced for the backing down. Because that’s where you started having to swallow all of your own feelings. Or all of – put people’s needs before you put your own. [00:53:49]

CLIENT: Backing down?

THERAPIST: Backing down.

CLIENT: Well I’m sure that that’s – I’m sure that that’s probably been there from the get go.

THERAPIST: Yeah. But see you’re not okay with that. You know, sometimes it’s compromise. Compromise though is different than continuing –

CLIENT: Yeah compromise is actually having coming from a place – a strong position and being able to give and take a little bit.

THERAPIST: Yeah. But, but that’s not what you’re describing in backing down.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: And if you think about it, your parents didn’t know anything about college, but you did not back down. Right? You went to college. [00:54:28]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: They didn’t really want you to go to Boston, but you went.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You know so with the times in your life that you have followed your own voice, right?

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Have been validating times.

CLIENT: Um-hum, sure.

THERAPIST: So I would imagine that that’s where our work can focus. Where you follow your own voice. Good or bad. You know it was interesting, so last night we had a friend over. My husband and I were talking. And they were talking about you know, these are intellectual guys, so they’re talking about you know, perceptions of masculinity and all of this stuff, you know. [00:55:03]

CLIENT: (chuckling)

THERAPIST: You know and how it’s you know structured – they could say it better than I. But one of the things that they talked about, right, and I always like to kind of listen because I find the discussion fascinating is that you know how society constructs manhood and some of the very rigid things that men have to do and have to be.

CLIENT: Um-hum. [00:55:23]

THERAPIST: How sometimes you know, you know you have to fight, even if you know you’re going to lose. And you know so one guy who is not the physical athlete guy had to fight with his intellect. And you know my husband, you know and so – it was interesting because they said because sometimes you are just called to do that and be that as a man. And you know if you don’t fit the stereotypical kind of machismo male role, how you have to find other outlets for your masculinity. But sometimes you know you just have to fight even if you’re going to lose, right? And I’m like what? [00:55:56]

Right, but – and I thought about it. And in some ways you have to fight I wonder even if you think you’re going to lose, because the fight is about you. It’s not really about your wife. It’s about you.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: You’re in a fight for your own peace, your own happiness, your own freedom.

CLIENT: Yeah, no it is, yeah.

THERAPIST: Your own sense of self really, you know. And the fight is to finally validate for yourself. You’re not only okay, but you’re really a good human being. And you don’t have to make everybody happy to be a good human being. And it’s not you know – you really do get one life to live. [00:56:34]

And so you kind of have to live, it sounds corny, but you sort of have to live your own best life. And that does not mean always backing down.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you know you swallowed all of that shit, you know. And that’s where the rage and the depression and the anger come from.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because nobody can continue to do that.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Now – yeah. No, yeah. I get all that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I get all that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. How does that sit with you? As we – [00:57:02]

CLIENT: I think – no, it – it all seems to flow. I get all of that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know I’m not exactly sure you know, just in terms of like you know, I know that I don’t fit the role – you know the typical male role model stuff. Yeah. I’m not exactly sure where I’m going with that piece, but. [00:57:31]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: No, that resonates a lot. And I feel like it seems to fit you know what we’re saying, so.

THERAPIST: Something to think about.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: So, we are not meeting next week because of those interviews.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But we will meet – [00:57:51]

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