TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I don’t need to do that, so.

THERAPIST: Well you know ICA is – they don’t have as much money as some other organizations, so you know.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: If you go to ACA, which has a national presence you know.

CLIENT: Right. I was – my experience was being the graduate student volunteer.

THERAPIST: Yeah, okay.

CLIENT: Thursday was fine because it was a pre-conference day and I was one of two graduate students who were helping out in this whole thing and it was really, it was okay, but Friday and Saturday – [00:00:40]

THERAPIST: What happened?

CLIENT: I – thinking that they need a little bit more help or a little bit more coordination. There were several grads who were helping out from here who left with a really bad taste in their mouths.

THERAPIST: Oh, that’s too bad. Was it because of disorganization, or?

CLIENT: I don’t know. I’m thinking disorganization and you know it’s like people will usually come and work all day for you with not much more than a pat on the head, but there were not many pats on the head going on and – [00:01:14]

THERAPIST: That’s too bad.

CLIENT: Yeah. So, but you know, that’s minor.

THERAPIST: Hopefully you at least got a chance to see some cool presentations.

CLIENT: Not much.

THERAPIST: Not much, oh my goodness.

CLIENT: The one that I was excited about going to see, we all – full room, packed room.

THERAPIST: What was it?

CLIENT: It was on mindfulness and the presenter didn’t show. [00:01:37]

THERAPIST: Oh, my goodness.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: The presenter didn’t show up?

CLIENT: Oh, my gosh.

THERAPIST: Oh, that’s terrible. I’m sorry that that was just –

CLIENT: So maybe somebody wasn’t very mindful about when they were supposed to be.

THERAPIST: Oh, my goodness. Well I am sorry you didn’t have a good experience, that’s too bad.

CLIENT: Well no, no, but I was there for the all day with the presenters, or the – when they did their thing you know on wellness and you know their models based on Adlerian and so it was really interesting. [00:02:11]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It was a good day. I won’t say I had a bad experience, it was just like little hiccups there.

THERAPIST: All right. Well how have you been? It’s been a couple of weeks since we’ve seen one another.

CLIENT: Okay. Yeah I think (pause) trying to get back – I’m running out of a meeting so I’m like shifting gears. [00:02:41]

THERAPIST: Sure, shift focus, yeah.

CLIENT: The – I think the experience has been that I had been more in tune with what I’m feeling.

THERAPIST: Okay, you mean over the last couple of weeks since we’ve been talking?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay, tell me.

CLIENT: Well I think one experience that I had, I think it was pretty much like right on the heels of leaving here, you know going home that evening and kind of recognizing that over the years you know, it’s – I’ve kind of allowed this pattern to happen where you know my life gets arranged for me and I get the memo. [00:03:23]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Here’s – here’s what we’re doing and you know it’s never really done you know, (pause) oh, I don’t know what the word would be. It’s not done like you will do this kind of thing, but it’s more like you know there was some innocuous thing, like it was a profit – or a charity breakfast after church. [00:03:57]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So it’s like I already feel like church is kind of this obligatory thing that I do and I go to get my card punched and –

THERAPIST: (laugh)

CLIENT: Justify my health insurance.

THERAPIST: Okay, right (chuckle)

CLIENT: (chuckle) But then it was like – so there’s this – this breakfast that happened, or was happening afterwards, but I was just like, no I’m not really interested in doing that. You know and it was like – so I recognized that I kind of did that maybe a little quickly. [00:04:34]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Maybe a little abruptly. It was just like, no I’m not interested in going there. And it was like – it was enough of a shock that it was like –

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Okay, well what’s wrong? (chuckle) Which you know was like (laugh) no, I just don’t want to do it you know. So.

THERAPIST: What – that’s pretty significant. So you know you kind of had your day planned for you. You know and this is sort of the norm. And then you – you said I’m not doing this part of the day and you know, what was that like for you? [00:05:08]

CLIENT: Oh I think that I was really – I felt fine about that. I felt good about that.

THERAPIST: Good for you.

CLIENT: It was just recognizing you know the little post it note that I’ll put you know up there for like the next time. It’s like don’t need to be quite as abrupt. (chuckle) You know. [00:05:29]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It’s like yeah, you can just say well yeah, you know thanks for thinking about me here, but yeah, I’m really not so much interested in doing that.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know I’ve got some other things or some other thoughts you know about my day. You know so I could have perhaps done it a little bit. But either way, irregardless, you know it was like you know just being able to say, no, I’m not going to, I’m not going there, so. [00:05:53]

THERAPIST: And it sounds like you feel okay about stating that.

CLIENT: Yeah and I feel like – I think that it was that that was good to be able to do that kind of thing and I recognize that – that I’ve gotten into such a pattern – our lives have gotten into such a pattern that that kind of thing happens and it happens almost like automatically.

THERAPIST: That – that your day being planned for you?

CLIENT: Weeks, months, years, whatever. And I’m just like okay. Yeah. You know and it’s not that it’s even an intentional thing anymore. It’s just that this is normative behavior. [00:06:43]

THERAPIST: Right. Right the way that we do things.

CLIENT: And I don’t like it anymore.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I’m not sure I liked it ever.

THERAPIST: Probably not.

CLIENT: But it’s like yeah. You know, it’s just that life in the past with the kids in high school and grade school or whatever, that life just seems like it was happening so quickly that it’s like okay, whatever, yeah, just you know, tell me what I need to do. You know? [00:07:06]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And just kind of –

THERAPIST: That’s not okay anymore. Not that it ever was. But I you know, I wonder – I mean that’s in some ways very powerful. A small change. You are empowered to make a small change.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And she responded to the change. Now she was surprised, but it doesn’t sound like there was an argument or –

CLIENT: No, there was you know some questioning about that. [00:07:35]

THERAPIST: Sure because it broke the pattern.

CLIENT: Yeah. And maybe you know a little bit of lobbying, but not – not too much. But I just yeah. I recognized that you know doing that kind of helps you recognize how much of that kind of thing is still continuing to go on.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it’s like I don’t know. [00:08:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah. You know it has me thinking a couple of things. I think that sometimes married men are socialized into accepting certain things, to go along to get along. To not rock the boat. Whether it’s kind of you know and I’ll use the example of my own marriage. One of the things that my husband and I try to work out, and I think it’s a process. You know where he would do something, but he’d be really irritated about it. But he wouldn’t tell me he was irritated, you know. [00:08:33]

And so I think he was like I’ll just her up or we’ll just go along to get along. And I said to him, I said, well how would I know that you’re irritated or angry about that? Because you haven’t told me. And he said I really have to make an effort to do that. It’s anti male in some ways. And it’s not what I’m used to. He’s black British. So you add male plus emotional repression as – and he would tell you this, okay. [00:08:56]

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: And so I thought about it and he has to work hard to say to me, what you did pissed me off. Or you know it really made me angry. And I always have to work hard to not react to it. But just that little bit. And we are not 25 years in like you are, okay. But change the pattern, right.

And so he has to make an effort, but I’m appreciative at least knowing. I’d rather know that he’s pissed or angry because I think that in working with couples, and you’ll see this in your own clinical work. Sometimes we get socialized into these patterns, and we may not even like the pattern, but it’s just easier. [00:09:32]

And I think men a lot of the times are like you know what just do it. Just shut up and do it. And then years later you find I don’t even want to be doing this.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You know so I – it makes me wonder what other changes you can make because you have felt disempowered in your marriage for so long.

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: And like you couldn’t change things feeling stuck. Which leads to kind of helplessness, hopelessness and a kind of feeling of just like you know, being stuck in your own life. [00:09:58]

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: And you just did that and you just became unstuck. Not completely, but just in that little I’m not doing that.

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: Tell me your thoughts about that.

CLIENT: No, I think just the sense of yeah, trying to figure out that you know kind of what you just said. That’s like all right, let’s try to be a little bit more intentional about this.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:10:27]

CLIENT: You know and it’s like you know, (pause) starting to get to a place of being able to recognize – recognize the feeling as it’s arising. That – that recognition of okay, this is whatever. This is anger. It’s like this is anger about you just writing my whole weekend for me. [00:10:58]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it’s like being able to be with that. To be with that emotion and then use it as you know, a – a positive beacon or something. It’s like you know, this might be a good time for you to like tell her what you’re feeling here. You know as opposed to just like, I don’t – I’m not going there. I’m not going to go into that place and being frustrated. So. [00:11:27]

THERAPIST: Yeah. That’s kind of – that’s kind of huge though. I mean you –

CLIENT: (big sigh) Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean you – no, but it kind of is because you’ve – you’ve sort of been in the pattern of burying it and repressing it, kind of choking it down.

CLIENT: Oh yeah, for years, for decades.

THERAPIST: And you made it – okay, but you just made a huge – I don’t want to minimize how significant it is. Even though it seems like a small change. You said I’m not doing that. And it seems small. It’s actually huge because you had to not only recognize what you were feeling, acknowledge it and then act on it. Like you had to do something with it in the moment. [00:11:59]

You know if we – if we move it that example out of your marriage and you know, since you are a counseling student. You know often times in my supervision of students, when you feel something with a client, now you have to take it and do something. You have to channel it into your interventions.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And because it means something. You know.

CLIENT: Say – say that again.

THERAPIST: Okay. So you know, in a – in any situation. But in a clinical situation when you feel something with a client –

CLIENT: So you’re talking you the counselor feels something. [00:12:32]

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: You have to – so this – I guess what I’m trying to do is say, you’re starting this with your marriage, but eventually you’re going to use this personally and professionally. You don’t throw out an emotion you’re feeling and invalidate it. It’s all meaningful.

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: So you take it, if you’re bored, or angry or scared or irritated or whatever. And you’ve got to take it and you channel it into your interventions. You do something with it. And that’s exactly what you did with your wife. You – you got unstuck. You’ve been stuck and that – that little bit of saying something, taking your anger or irritation that you’ve been burying for so long and saying no, I’m not going to do that. [00:13:09]

Whatever you said is less significant that you one, felt it. Two, acknowledged it and three, said something. That’s pretty amazing actually. It’s not a small thing, Seamus.

CLIENT: All right, well I’ll sit with that. It feels – it feels insignificant. You know because like whatever. It feels like (chuckling) in looking at trying to move the entire mountain it’s like well you know I’ve just taken a table spoon and I just you know. (laugh) It’s not – I get the – [00:13:42]

THERAPIST: What’s the mountain?

CLIENT: The mountain of you know, decades of not –not being honest. Not being able to speak or you know, whatever you know.

THERAPIST: Is she the mountain?

CLIENT: No, no, I think you know to me, you know not being able to express my feelings. You know it’s like – [00:14:11]

THERAPIST: But you did.

CLIENT: I did. You know.

THERAPIST: And what if you re-conceptualize it. You’re not trying to move a mountain.

CLIENT: (chuckling) Yeah. I like that, yeah.

THERAPIST: You’re trying to change things. I mean because if you are moving a mountain, well then that’s exhausting.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly.

THERAPIST: But if it’s – you know what, I’m not doing it this way anymore. Like just the small – and changes occurs in small stages. So just acknowledging I’m feeling something and I’m going to stand up for myself here. [00:14:35]

CLIENT: Um-hum. Um-hum.

THERAPIST: I’m not going to let my life be planned for me. I get to plan my life. Right. Or we get to discuss how we plan our lives. But I’m not going to allow my life to be planned. I’m not okay with that anymore. Is – the process is huge. [00:14:52]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: That what you did is huge. It seems like a small intervention, but the process you went through to do that intervention is huge. And typically, since you are allowing yourself to sit with these emotions, more things are going to come out of that. You know the next time you have – I bet you you’re not going to be able to be quiet the next time your life gets planned for you. [00:15:13]

CLIENT: Oh, no. I feel – yeah. And not that I’ve head a repeat performance on that yet.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But mostly because (chuckle) she’s been too busy with this other activity and it’s like we just really haven’t seen much of each other. However, however I recognize that there’s this event going on at Indiana University where my youngest is at. [00:15:44]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So we were just there for family weekend. There’s an event that she’d like to attend on the weekend. But she can’t.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And she’s like oh you should go. You should go do that. And I recognized kind of what was going on there. And it was just like I have really – you know if you really wanted to go to this and it was going to be like the two of us going to do this, you know I would consider talking about this because it would be like a different avenue. It would be a different event. It would be you and I doing something together. [00:16:22]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But you know, this is your thing. This is like jazz vocal performance and I – you know I’ll go to support my son if he’s performing in a concert. But this is like an outside group that’s coming in. You know this is your thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I’m not going to go there by myself to do that. So.

THERAPIST: Did you say that?

CLIENT: Yeah I was able to say yeah, you know, no. I’m really not wanting to go do this by myself. And it was not – it was not as big an issue as maybe other things. It – it’s not a great example, but you know it was an example – [00:17:02]

THERAPIST: No, but it’s a really good example.

CLIENT: It was another opportunity for me to say yeah, no I’m not going to go there.

THERAPIST: How did that feel?

CLIENT: Fine. Fine, yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay, is it just me over here by myself recognizing that this is still a really big deal?

CLIENT: (laughing) I don’t know. I don’t know, (chuckle) I don’t know.

THERAPIST: What I – what I find interesting is that in the telling of the story, you sort of were hard on yourself about the way you did it. As if the language should have been softer or more thoughtful. [00:17:28]

CLIENT: Yeah you know, and I recognize – I do recognize it and I was even thinking about that as it was happening.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know that it’s like, oh, would you look at that. You know, you’re going –

THERAPIST: So what’s that about?

CLIENT: You’re going to – now you’re going to beat yourself up because you didn’t – you didn’t do it right.

THERAPIST: Yeah I heard that.

CLIENT: Or you didn’t say it kind enough. Or whatever. It’s like you just said it. Would you just back away from that and just let it alone. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Well I mean but what do you – what do you think that’s about?

CLIENT: Not wanting – not wanting to do anything that puts me in a position where somebody won’t like me. [00:18:07]

THERAPIST: What if your wife doesn’t like you?

CLIENT: (pause) A, I’m pretty sure that there’s a good chance that maybe (laugh) that may be the reality.

THERAPIST: Is what?

CLIENT: (chuckle) That – that you know, that she doesn’t like me. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Okay. And then what about you liking her? [00:18:29]

CLIENT: Yeah. You know it’s like, that’s an interesting impasse to be at. It’s like oh, wow.

THERAPIST: Wait. If you had to tell me right now. Do you agree with the statement that you don’t like her?

CLIENT: Do I like her? (pause) I – yeah. You know it’s like –

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Okay so how much time has passed before I’m answering this question. I like her.

THERAPIST: Do you? [00:19:00]

CLIENT: Maybe not, I don’t know. Can I be honest about that that? I’m not sure. I think that the bottom line is that if we were two strangers that were meeting and it’s like – yeah I’m not so sure that this would be relationship material here. So I’m like -

THERAPIST: Do you like your wife?

CLIENT: (pause) (sigh) Wow. (pause) I think – I think our time’s up now. (laugh) [00:19:37]

THERAPIST: (laughing) This is pretty uncomfortable for you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah this – this gets at you know the – the big myths.

THERAPIST: Tell me.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know the myths of you have to like – you have to like your wife right? That’s –

THERAPIST: You don’t. Yeah you know it’s – the dichotomies of loving someone but not liking them. Liking someone, not loving them. And love and like, and like love and hate living in the same house. You know my dad was a therapist, teacher and some other things. And he taught me – he had some – his parents were – he was a great dad. But his parents were pretty abusive. And he didn’t like them. [00:20:25]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I – and they were great grandparents, which is the ironic thing, but he – he told me when I was an adolescent, I don’t like them. I love them. But I don’t like them. And I recognize from the – his perspective of all the things that he had to endure that they weren’t likable to him.

So I kind of understood that you can love someone deeply, or not. And not like them. And like is – like is what often can change in a marriage. And there are times when you like someone very much and then sometimes you don’t like them. And so for me, saying I like someone or I don’t like. It’s easy. There are times I like my husband very much. And times I’m like ooh, I don’t like you right now. Right. [00:21:13]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So for me it would be easier to say. For you it’s more complicated. And we’ve talked about some childhood factors.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But you know that really caused a conflict for you. Can you tell me –

CLIENT: Well yeah. You know and I think that I do remember a conversation with my father, you know and this was probably when I’m what? 17, 18 years old. I’m an undergrad. I’m going back to college. He’s driving me back to college. [00:21:41]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And I’m not exactly sure what precipitated the question. I just remember the question. And the question you know, which I think was kind of a ballsy question at the time and it’s like, so do you love mom?

THERAPIST: Um-hum. And?

CLIENT: Pause. Well she’s my partner. And I was like wow. You know so it was like I don’t what to have that relationship. [00:22:10]

THERAPIST: What impact did that have?

CLIENT: I don’t want to have that relationship. You know and it’s like I – you know and so it’s like oh, so here you are. Welcome. Welcome to your dad. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Is that scary for you?

CLIENT: Not necessarily scary, just a little, maybe a lot at this point. You know it’s like damn it. You know is it – can we escape this? Or is this just the natural course of – of relationships? [00:22:39]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know there’s you know all the fairy tales and all the myths and all the you know, all of that. All of the expectations and all of the crap that’s out there about relationships and it’s like how much of that – you know you think that you’ve you know, gotten over and not bought into, but it’s like (click) how much of that stuff is just interwoven into the fabric of who we are that. [00:23:05]

THERAPIST: But you – you almost sort of interpret this as your personal failure.

CLIENT: Hum. Let me think about that. (pause) Probably. (pause) Yeah, you know it’s like whatever. You know it’s almost like I’m angry at being naive or something. It’s like –

THERAPIST: Tell me.

CLIENT: What you didn’t see this, you know. You couldn’t – what was you know, what has changed so much you know, that you know you couldn’t see all of these qualities and traits. You know it’s like well, people change, people evolve over time. So it’s like – [00:23:48]

THERAPIST: So you’re as angry at yourself as you are at your wife.

CLIENT: Maybe.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Maybe. And maybe it’s just easier to be mad at me, you know then to be mad at somebody else. Especially when you have issues of you know – you know the whole sexual abuse piece of it is like oh, you’re going to be mad at the victim. Oh, there – that’s good. (chuckle) [00:24:19]

THERAPIST: Well, you’re not mad at the victim. You’re angry at your wife. That’s not the same.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know it’s – you are unreasonably hard on yourself.

CLIENT: I never really –

THERAPIST: Unreasonably hard on yourself.

CLIENT: I never really noticed that before. [00:24:35]

THERAPIST: It’s – it’s in some ways a constant theme of how unreasonably hard on yourself you are.

CLIENT: Hum. Hum.

THERAPIST: You’re supposed to be stoic. You’re not supposed to have any needs. You’re supposed to be the good guy.

CLIENT: (chuckling)

THERAPIST: You’re supposed to – and when I say unreasonably, I mean it’s impossible and it’s – it’s unfair to yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: You see – I can see the pattern of where your own voice got buried. You know and it got buried as you have learned to try to be all things to all people. And you can’t be. [00:25:08]

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: How does – how does that sit with you?

CLIENT: Well I think that (pause) there’s a certain you know – you know just a like maybe what a little crack of light or something, it’s like oh, there’s an enlightening. Even though it’s kind of dark to look at, it’s like really, you’re that guy. You’re the – you’re that guy that is so incredibly hard on himself. Wow. Would you look at that. [00:25:44]

THERAPIST: And you feel what about that?

CLIENT: Well I feel like you know having that knowledge or being able to kind of see that is helpful and I also recognize that that piece of the voice being buried, it’s like yeah, you know (pause) I’m not used to having a voice. I’m not even sure what my own voice sounds like. [00:26:11]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: That kind of feeling. You know so it’s like it’s not surprising that you know, (chuckle) I just kind of blurt something out.

THERAPIST: Exactly.

CLIENT: Because it’s like well, you – you don’t know how to use your voice do you?

THERAPIST: Okay. I think that’s true.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: So now what do you do with that? [00:26:33]

CLIENT: (pause) (sigh) A couple of little things you know. You know just you know, thinking about it. You know it was like I was writing a reflection paper. You know so I’m thinking – a couple of things were going through my head. It’s like the whole notion of authenticity. And it’s like, well dude, if you’re going to be authentic in – and you know I wasn’t using these words at the time, but it’s like now I would use the words, it’s like, well and you’d want to kind of exercise your voice here. It’s like then you need to – you need to write that into the paper. You can’t write something that sort of sounds nice or whatever. [00:27:18]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know and it sort of sounds like you’re being authenticy. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Right. (laugh)

CLIENT: It’s like well what are you really felling here? You know and it’s like write it down, you know.

THERAPIST: And what did you write? If I may ask. [00:27:33]

CLIENT: Oh, well it was a – it was a small review or critique of the ICA.

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: You know and it was like, yeah, it was – it was kind of disorganized. It was kind of chaotic. You know so I wrote those things in.

THERAPIST: So you wrote the truth.

CLIENT: Yeah. I did.

THERAPIST: And what was it like to write the truth?

CLIENT: Well, it was okay in that you know I felt like again, it’s sort of like well, riding a bike is not so bad as long as the training wheels are on. (laugh) [00:28:02]

THERAPIST: Well but you – but you thought about not writing the truth.

CLIENT: Well I recognized what I was doing.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: That there’s such a long history and such a long pattern that it will be – I think the job or the task is to try to be aware of when those feelings are starting to arise.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know it’s like oh. Trying to figure out if I can put you know, the little Kmart blue light or something, you know that’s like oh, do you see the – do you see the little flashing light here. You might be – you might be engaging in that behavior right now. [00:28:38]

So if I can try to be – those feelings a little bit more. It doesn’t necessarily mean that I have to act on every one of them.

THERAPIST: True.

CLIENT: But if I can at least be aware. It’s like oh, yeah, not so much here. You know this –

THERAPIST: You know, this is going to sound very corny, but in some ways I’m excited for you because you’ve been through this very deeply painful process you know, of recognizing that you’re not in a place that you want to be. That your marriage is not what you want it to be. But you’re also on the verge of absolutely discovering your own voice. [00:29:20]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: There are cracks. And when you begin to exercise it. When you learn how to exercise your own voice without putting the restrictions that you think should be on it, you’re really going to like yourself a whole lot.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And you will recognize that in part, each of us is kind of responsible for our own happiness.

CLIENT: Right. Right. [00:29:49]

THERAPIST: You know like the things – because you’re connected to your wife, the things that she does influences you. But choosing to not go to a Sunday afternoon lunch because you don’t want to go, is a way of recognizing your you know, exercising your own voice because you don’t want to go. And you don’t have to, right. And it’s a way of standing up for yourself and not going along to get along. And – and here are a thousand ways to do that for yourself every day. It’s not a punitive measure to get back at your wife. [00:30:22]

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: You know and I don’t have – I have a small sense of her, not a significant sense, but I wonder if the change might not be good for both of you.

CLIENT: Yeah. And it’s impossible for me to change and not to have some kind of an impact on the relationship.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Even though it might be scary. Because of course you don’t know what it might look like. But it means – the changes that you’ve made so far, hopefully show you that you’re not stuck. Or you’re not willing to be stuck anymore. And small changes lead to big changes. [00:30:58]

CLIENT: Well I’ll sit with that because – yeah. I think I’m obviously you know, have been minimizing the change. You know I think – and maybe we all want the big change or we want the you know – but whatever, yeah. Yeah. You know so. I’ll sit with the – and be okay with the small changes too. Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I still don’t see it as small. [00:31:30]

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: I see it as pretty big. Because of the process. This wasn’t the – you’re tired and you barked a response. This was a thoughtful acknowledgment of your own thoughts and feelings and prefacing them. And that’s not selfish. That’s not selfish.

CLIENT: (deep breath) Yeah.

THERAPIST: It’s you know, not in this context, it’s really not. [00:31:59]

CLIENT: Yeah, I think I – I think I get that. I think you know I can see how for too long you know, just going along and then being the guy who doesn’t really want to be – and doing whatever it’s like well, how fun was that for everybody?

THERAPIST: Um-hum. (chuckle)

CLIENT: Can we take a vote on that? You know. Yeah. I – I get that that stance is probably even more selfish you know then if I would have just been able to say yeah, no. I’m not going to do that. And You know please feel free if you want to, but I’m not going, kind of attitude. And maybe everybody would have been happier in the long run. So. [00:32:49]

THERAPIST: You’ve often spoken about the force field.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: What does this do to the force field? The shared force field?

CLIENT: Hum. (long pause) Well, I initially – you know I’ll spend some more time sitting with that. But I initially it feels like I’ve sort of dropped mine.

THERAPIST: Okay. [00:33:29]

CLIENT: You know sort of it was – in doing for me, you know it’s kind of like, all right. Force field’s down. I’m not going. Boom. You know, hit me with your best shot, you know kind of feeling you know.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: I don’t know if that implies that there’s still a force field there or not. But it’s – you know it puts me in a more vulnerable position I think.

THERAPIST: Why vulnerable?

CLIENT: Because I looked – I’m – I’m – again, you know it’s like that (chuckle) you know I’m facing my worst fear which is you’re not going to like me. [00:34:10]

THERAPIST: Tell me about why that’s your worst fear.

CLIENT: Well, I don’t know. I – I think that just in – in other situations it always feels like you know, other in past counseling situations or past spiritual direction sessions. It always feels to me like you know, that that’s – that’s this underlying theme or monster or demon, or whatever. [00:34:43]

It’s just like yeah, would you look at that, you know your whole life is wrapped up around needing to please other people. Needing to be liked by other people. And it’s like look at how much crap you’ve gotten into because you can’t – you can’t either tell people what you really think, or you can’t be honest about what you feel, or you go along and do things because you don’t want to hurt somebody else’s feelings. Blah, blah, blah. [00:35:15]

Maybe even get yourself into an engaged relationship with somebody because you were worried about what they might think about you. And I’m gughh.

THERAPIST: How – how do you think that’s operated in here?

CLIENT: (pause) (sigh) Well I feel like it’s less in here.

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Well, for the most part I think, you know I feel a sense of trust in this relation –

THERAPIST: Do you think I like you?

CLIENT: (pause) Maybe it’s about the story of the counselor client relationship. It’s like it doesn’t matter if you like me. (laugh) It’s much or something, I’m not sure. [00:36:03]

THERAPIST: So it – I have to be as the counselor, attracted to the story. I can’t just like you, Seamus. I’m interested in the story.

CLIENT: No that’s not what I was trying to say I don’t think. You know for me it’s not the – there’s not – I don’t know. There’s not the expectation. (pause) You know why is it more important for you know, I’m kind of stuck on that one. I don’t know. [00:36:42]

THERAPIST: You know I understand from what you’ve talked about where the desire to be liked comes from because you know you were in a family where you didn’t feel like you belonged with your brothers. In some ways with your parents. You know the choices that you’ve made. I get that. [00:37:03]

And there’s sometimes that with depression comes that. But here’s the biggest unfortunate thing of all is, at least from my interactions with you. And I’m not blowing smoke here. You’re really likeable.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And if you say you haven’t tried, well then you’re likeable but you don’t know. You don’t know if that’s true or not. Because if what you’ve told me is true, then you’re working so hard to be liked that you don’t know that you actually are and you probably don’t have to work at it. [00:37:30]

CLIENT: Um-hum. Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Right. And so going back to our conversation about if your wife likes you and if you like your wife. Let’s say you guys don’t like each other very much. Let’s just say that. Well then you’re working really hard for something you’re not going to get. Let’s say, you don’t like her and she doesn’t like you. Then all the things that you have done to go along to get along, and you’re angry, resentful. She’s angry, resentful. And there are these mutual force fields up as we’ve talked about. That’s not working. [00:38:06]

CLIENT: Um-hum. Um-hum.

THERAPIST: So – so in some ways, what the hell?

CLIENT: (chuckle) Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right? Why not – and I’m not trying to make it – I think it’s much more harder. It’s much more difficult than this. I’m not saying you know, well what the hell, just throw it out the window. But kind of like what the hell. Let’s say you guys don’t like each other. Well, that means you know, it’s probably not going to get a whole lot worse. Maybe you’re concern of the image of the withdrawal of what? I mean there’s the withdrawal of emotional support that’s already there. There’s the withdrawal of physical affection which is already there. What are – what’s – what’s the loss here? [00:38:43]

CLIENT: (chuckle) Yeah. Exactly. Then I think it starts to become –then I think it starts to become like the social things. You know it’s like then – then it becomes like keeping up appearances.

THERAPIST: Yes and I mean, that’s important to you and to her. And in some ways especially to her from what you’ve said, yes?

CLIENT: (sigh) Yeah. Yeah I think so. I mean – I mean there’s – there’s the kids, there’s the cultural thing, there’s her job. You know it’s like yeah, you know this is a good – this is a good package. You know this is a good gig. A good act to you know to be playing, you know and. [00:39:32]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I’m not saying what the hell, throw it out the window.

CLIENT: No, I’m not getting that from you.

THERAPIST: But I’m saying what the hell, you – you since – if you – if you accept that to be the truth, and I don’t know that it is. But let’s just you know, say that that’s the truth, it actually would give you the opportunity to make some changes. Because what you fear has happened already.

CLIENT: (chuckle) Yeah, I’ve – I’ve actually had that thought before too, that’s right. [00:39:59]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah the metaphor might be something like (pause) the guy who’s out you know, standing out in front of his house talking to a you know, an insurance agent about you know fire insurance. And the picture in the back is you know, the house is smoldering, it’s just ashes. (chuckle) You know it’s like, really dude?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (chuckle) What’s – what are you – what are you insuring here, you know. And I think it’s habitual behavior. [00:40:34]

THERAPIST: It is.

CLIENT: It’s like it’s – this is the way I react in every situation. And it – it’s like – Pavlovian dog.

THERAPIST: See you’re telling yourself that, but you’ve changed it. Well yeah, but you’re not a dog.

CLIENT: (laugh)

THERAPIST: And you’ve change it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You’ve change it. And that’s why it’s significant. Because if you can change that, you can’t change her. But sometimes – I mean and we often with our spouses create – given our history and the context – what we think is going on inside their heads. [00:41:09]

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Sometimes we’re right. Sometimes we’re not. But if the worst has happened, if the house is already on fire, or smoldering, or burned to ashes, in some ways, you know you can allow your own voice to be heard, and re-teach yourself about you.

CLIENT: Um-hum. Um-hum. [00:41:33]

THERAPIST: You know where you say, I don’t like this. Or I’m not happy with this particular thing. Or I miss the physical intimacy. And what is the consequence? What, she doesn’t speak to you? Or she says nasty things?

CLIENT: (chuckling) Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean you are already deeply hurt, don’t trust. The force field is still up. One act does not bring the force field down. It doesn’t actually make you more vulnerable. It actually makes you more powerful. [00:42:05]

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think that – I think that that’s the experience that I had. It think that I do feel that. I think that I do you know, even though I may not be using the language that I think that it was a powerful experience.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I do feel empowered to continue to do those kind of things.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And to recognize not only within the context of my marriage, but it’s like oh, shit yeah. You know you just do this everywhere don’t you. Just look at that. Oh, would you look at that. (chuckle) There you go again. Isn’t that kind of funny. [00:42:40]

So I think that I’m you know, I’m starting to be able to see that. And I think that the way that I’m beginning to see that is maybe with just kind of a sense of humor about it almost.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know it’s like you know, oh, there you go again. Isn’t that funny. You know so it’s like –

THERAPIST: And that’s humor for you, you’re not poking fun at yourself? You’re not making fun or damning yourself?

CLIENT: No, no, no, no. No.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It’s – it’s really not that feeling. It’s more of like oh, I caught you. You tried to do it there, but I caught you. You know it’s kind of – that kind of feeling. Like almost like you know, my dog who you know I tell her to sit in the corner. And you know I’m doing the dishes or something and she’ll – she’ll wait and then it’s like she slowly starts to move. [00:43:32]

THERAPIST: (chuckle)

CLIENT: It’s like no. No, it’s like I caught you.

THERAPIST: I see you, yeah.

CLIENT: I see you. So it’s – it’s that kind of thing. It’s like oh, I see what’s going on here.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So it’s more of that recognition. And if there’s a sense of humor about it, it’s more of a sense of a smile of like aah. [00:43:46]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Awareness, recognizing. Okay, that’s what’s going on here.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And there’s where the empowerment is, you know. The awareness is powerful.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Because you’re changing it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But I think that you know, if it should move to damning or blaming or shaming yourself, remember, there are some really good reasons you – you began to live your life that way. There always are. Right. [00:44:13]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: There’s some really good reasons why we develop the coping skills that we do, right. Even when they stop making sense for us to do. So at some point in time that was functional and served a good value for you. It stopped and you don’t have to do it anymore. But you know, you always have to honor and understand why. [00:44:41]

So I hope that – I mean and you have a sense of why, you know, but I think that sometimes we develop around these ways of being and then you know, but you can change it. But you have to – you have to respect the why did you do it in the first place. Instead of – and you try to have to kind of take a step back a little bit and look at it and say well why did I begin to live this way? What was happening? [00:45:06]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: As opposed to going what the hell? And what’s wrong with you? And no. Because then you never really understand or respect why.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And then recognize well, you don’t have to do that anymore. You don’t have to be that anymore.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: You get to choose.

CLIENT: Yeah. No I think – I think I get that you know. I – I’m not necessarily sure if I’m so much, that I feel like I necessarily have the energy right now to, well maybe I could. But I’m like (pause) you know I’m okay with just being able to say yeah. You know there was a reason why this happened in the past. [00:45:49]

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: I can let it go.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Really. You know it’s like I get that. I get the fact that it’s habitual patterns. And I’ve just been you know doing the same kind of thing, it’s like I just need to come to that place and like stop it. You can stop this now.

THERAPIST: I wish you would have empathy for yourself for the why.

CLIENT: (deep breath) I’m – okay. So it sounds like – it sounds to you like I’m not empathetic. [00:46:25]

THERAPIST: To you. For the why.

CLIENT: No I –

THERAPIST: Deeply – I’m going to make up a word here.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Caringly empathetic as to the why.

CLIENT: I will sit with that. I – I think that – I would say that I – I think that I feel empathetic.

THERAPIST: Have you forgiven yourself?

CLIENT: Hum, that’s a good question. That probably – probably not. I think that – yeah. If – if I could answer that one quickly or honestly, yeah. The fact that I can’t, says something to the fact that yeah, probably not there yet you know. [00:47:20]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I’ll sit with that some more. I think that that could be.

THERAPIST: Seamus what are you feeling right now?

CLIENT: (deep breath) I think that you know it’s just kind of an endorsement of – of some empowerment. You know I do feel that – yeah. Even though I may not be onboard necessarily being able to see it 100 percent yet, it’s like I trust the fact that you’re able to hold it for me. (chuckle) For a little bit. (laugh) [00:47:54]

THERAPIST: How very abdiculatious of you. (laugh)

CLIENT: Yeah. Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So yeah. Just yeah, hanging on to that for a little bit. Or holding it out there for me.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Let me – let me – so it feels like – yeah, let me try this one on this week. You know it’s like I’ll put that on and kind of wear that and see what it feels like. But –

THERAPIST: Which parts will you wear?

CLIENT: Well I think that I feel like sitting with – sitting with the forgiveness piece. [00:48:31]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: (pause) You know and I feel like the – the other two by four to the head was like oh, do you like your wife? That’s – I’m not really sure where to go with that, but it’s like, oh, that was an incredibly uncomfortable question, so.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Kind of going with that. Kind of looking at (pause) yeah. Why not, you know. Why not give this a shot you know. [00:49:09]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know and then like trying to be aware of like what the hell is my voice you know.

THERAPIST: Um-hum. It’s a – it’s a lot quickly in here.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Does it feel that way to you?

CLIENT: Not necessarily.

THERAPIST: Okay. I want to be respectful of the pace. [00:49:31]

CLIENT: Oh thanks. No I think that (pause) I think to a – to some degree, you know it’s – it’s been the kind of thing where I’ve been trying to figure out how to get to this place, you know and it’s like – so just having – having somebody kind of help channel that and move it, that feels helpful. [00:49:58]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know it’s like oh.

THERAPIST: Because you came in, it seemed like pretty ready, pretty open you know. And so I’m – I know I’m saying some pretty blunt, direct things, you know. But I’m sort of using our earlier discussion about you know, I guess the idea of your truth right, being you know seen – seeing you, hearing you, your wants, your needs without the distraction of – I don’t have to consider your wife’s needs in here, right. [00:50:41]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And I don’t have to consider your kids. I have to consider what those mean to you. But I’m hoping that this can be a place where for an hour a week, you don’t have to consider what it has to sound like when you say it out there. You can just say it or feel it or think it. And if I get it wrong, which you know, no problem, you say you got it wrong. [00:51:04]

And you get to sound – you get to hear yourself say directly, no that’s not right. Or you got it wrong without having to repackage it in a way that you think I can or can’t hear it. Because it’s not going to change the fact that I like you. And I think you’re a bright guy and enjoy working with you. Right, and I come from the other perspective where I just kind of say it. I don’t really – really don’t consider (laugh) – [00:51:27]

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: You know to – and that’s sometimes a good thing, and sometimes not a good thing at all. But I just – because one of the things that I trust is, if I say it or do it wrong either in my personal life, or as a therapist, and it’s not that I’m trying to – trying to hurt people in any way, but if I say it or do it wrong, I trust that the relationship I form, there will be some repair. [00:51:52]

So if I say Seamus, how did you hear what I said and you say you know what, I didn’t like that. Or that hurt or you have a facial expression. I trust that there will be a repair in the relationship. So I’m not overly concerned with how I say things. I try to say things in a sensitive way. But I also just say it you know. [00:52:11]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so in some ways, I hope that’s helpful to you.

CLIENT: Well if nothing else, it’s some modeling because I didn’t grow up in that situation. You know so I don’t – I don’t have very many positive role models on how one you know, effectively just says it. [00:52:33]

THERAPIST: Yeah, well we’ll see how effective it is.

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: But – but if not I certainly trust (laugh) I do trust that you’re going to tell me. Or find some way of communicating.

CLIENT: Well I will (pause) yeah. I think that I can.

THERAPIST: I hope so.

CLIENT: So yeah. We’ll see – we’ll see how that plays out so.

THERAPIST: I don’t know. Well – well you said that you have a lot to sit with this week, so I’ll be interested to hear what you come back with next week. [00:53:03]

CLIENT: Yeah. And next week is still working?

THERAPIST: Yes. We are still here next week.

CLIENT: That is the 20th?

THERAPIST: The 19th. No.

CLIENT: The 21st.

THERAPIST: The 21st yes.

CLIENT: 21st.

THERAPIST: The 21st.

CLIENT: Yeah. Okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then – so and then –

THERAPIST: And then Thanksgiving is the next.

CLIENT: So does this – this all gets a reset then for the second semester?

THERAPIST: I am here through the second week of December.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And I think that you guys have finals the first week of December?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. So I am here through the second week of December, and then –

CLIENT: But I think that I’m also – yeah. Let’s see. No I have to check, I think. [00:53:46]

END TRANSCRIPT