TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: There we go, that’s better. How you doing?

CLIENT: All right.

THERAPIST: What’s happening in your world?

CLIENT: Well it’s you know, the last couple of weeks –

THERAPIST: It is.

CLIENT: Before the end of the semester, so it’s like non-stop paper writing. And I’ll follow it shortly by cramming for exams you know. So. (chuckle) [00:00:18]

THERAPIST: It’s pretty bad. And you wonder why – if your professors all get together and have a conspiracy theory and why everything’s due at once.

CLIENT: Oh, well, I’ve been on the other side of the desk you know. It’s like everybody’s – everybody’s trying to cram it all in –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: At the end of the semester so. Yeah, so thinking about coming up here, or thinking about you know, the week, you know, reflecting on the week. It’s like well, I’m not sure how much like revelatory information I have to give you. I’ve just been you know sitting in front of a computer for a lot of – [00:00:51]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: A lot of the time. So, not that stuff hasn’t been happening.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I’m just like, well I don’t know. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: What’s been happening?

CLIENT: I I – honestly you know, a lot a paper writing. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Yeah. What’s been happening at home besides paper writing?

CLIENT: Yeah. You know the – our schedules – our schedules are such that you know there’s just a lot of – [00:01:20]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know. You know, our housing situation is such that you know, we built this house kind of about, um six and a half miles kind of southeast of Limestone.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So we’re out in the country, little rural subdivision, and my job – or my wife’s job is in Bourbonnais.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Which door to door is probably about a 20, 25 minute drive.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, as the crow flies, a lot shorter, but you know, just getting there. [00:01:55]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So once she’s over there, it’s like running back and forth to the house is kind of like you know, it was always a stretch, or it’s always a struggle, so when the kids – we actually were going to send the kids to a parochial high school.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Because our house is in the Limestone School District.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And my wife’s you know, a music person, you know a music degree person, and so music’s always been really important in the family. So – and she was – she got this job working part time for the Bradley School District as the accompanist for the choir program. And she had decided that the kids – well actually my daughter was in high school for two years there and just hated it. [00:02:59]

THERAPIST: Is that the local?

CLIENT: Parochial high school.

THERAPIST: Yeah, okay.

CLIENT: Because she’s a music kid.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And you know, if you want to play sports, they’ve got a pretty good sports program, but not much on the music side. So we ended up transferring her, and in the process ended up buying a house.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: In the school district, so we were tax payers in the school district.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But then it became apparent that like driving the kids back and forth you know, just (chuckle) so the bottom line is we ended up moving and living over there during the school year. [00:03:37]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So it’s kind of like this you know –

THERAPIST: So you have two houses about –

CLIENT: Yeah. And, yeah -

THERAPIST: 20, 25 minutes apart, okay.

CLIENT: But the other – you know the house in Bradley is now rented out.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So we got renters in there. So my wife is in Bradley.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Used to living in Bradley.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: All of her life and her friends are in Bradley.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know, and so it’s like my whole life is over here, but I drive out and go to sleep. You know, it’s like – [00:04:01]

THERAPIST: Which kind of seems to further symbolize.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Yeah. Tell me about that reaction.

CLIENT: You know it’s just my world has kind of been that way for the last six years, so when we were living in Bradley, I would drive every day out to my studio.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And the house, so I was at the house every day.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Didn’t really feel like home because home is where – [00:04:32]

THERAPIST: That’s right.

CLIENT: You’re family and your jock is. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Right, right.

CLIENT: So you know, I’m coming out and taking care of this – and the you know, it’s a pretty large home.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And a pretty you know, my studio is – so it’s like this two acre piece of property.

THERAPIST: Is your studio in your home? Or is it –

CLIENT: It’s adjacent to it.

THERAPIST: Okay. Okay.

CLIENT: It’s a separate building. But yeah. So in the meantime we’ve gotten – you know we’ve had a couple of different people that have been like borders that have lived there. [00:05:06]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know, just you have boarding, kind of occupying the space and that kind of thing and – and all that kind of thing. But you know it’s been this kind of odd mix of what’s been going on. You know so initially it was like building you know, this dream that I had. [00:05:27]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Of creating a cottage industry, which I think maybe I got to experience or live for a few years.

THERAPIST: Okay, before you moved to Bradley.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah that it you know, that it was this kind of thing where – and it worked for a little while that I was at home when the kids got home from school, and my business at the time was actually in the garage before I built the studio – [00:05:49]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Next door. And you know, so it was – yeah.

THERAPIST: I never asked you, how did you get into building furniture?

CLIENT: I’m a shop teacher.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So –

THERAPIST: You’re musical?

CLIENT: A little bit.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: My wife’s really the musician. You know, I sing a little bit you know, but not. But no I started off my undergrad was in industrial arts. [00:06:16]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So the thing that you find about teaching industrial arts is that you never have time to build anything.

THERAPIST: I bet.

CLIENT: You’re always helping kids.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And yeah. So then I would start to do projects and that kind of thing for people on the weekends.

THERAPIST: So you were actually teaching –

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: In the school – in which school district?

CLIENT: Oh I was at – I was in Andres.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And my last stop was at Peotone. I taught at the Bradley Career Center.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: A few other places around the state.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So I had about close to 15 years of experience –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: As a high school teacher. So (sigh) the – yeah. But you know I was building things on the weekends and the summers and it just eventually got to the place where it was like well I’m really busy – [00:07:05]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know, and I’m really getting kind of tired and burned out with school. So it’s like you know, I made the shift. And I had started to make that shift. You know it was always kind of like this dream that I wanted to try.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: So in 2000 is when I left teaching and started my business. So.

THERAPIST: How – how have you enjoyed that transition?

CLIENT: I think that I enjoyed it probably for the first five years. [00:07:36]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And then you know, things kept kind of growing to the point where I ended up getting some help.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And then I started to become a business man and –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Stopped becoming an artist.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And so the last – the last several years have just been this you know, this kind of trying to figure out how to be a business man and how to run a business and how to you know grow a business and how to you know do quick books and all the stuff that you need to do. [00:08:05]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: To run a business and recognizing that you know what, as much as I tried, as much as I think I had the aptitude to do this –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Being a business man is just not doing anything except sucking the life right out of me. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And there’s like kind of bumping up against that reality of like hum – [00:08:32]

THERAPIST: There are a lot of parallels here.

CLIENT: Tell me how you see it as parallel.

THERAPIST: Well you know, I see you as a talented person. A man of –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Many talents.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Right. And you leave teaching, which is kind of your secure profession.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And you kind of go out and you give way to the artistry –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Of what you want to do. And then it doesn’t again turn out the way that you want it to because – and this happens with many people, it’s like music majors, right. [00:09:02]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: You go into music because you love it and then it becomes your business and all of a sudden it’s not so much fun anymore.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And for you, you went into it for the artistry of it. Knew you’d have to make a living, and then it turns into now you’re the business man and once again you went into it for the artistry of it and you didn’t get to fully do that as long as you wanted to. [00:09:22]

CLIENT: Well, maybe I did. You know –

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Really I’ve kind of gotten to this place where I’m like – I’m in a position right now where I could –

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, put more time into the artistry if I really wanted to.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know the – you know the sad truth of the matter is it’s like – it’s like going to the cupboard and open up the cupboard it’s like you know what, there’s just nothing there anymore.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know it’s empty. (chuckle) And I’m like um – you know maybe I – I’m not saying that I’m – I really have never considered myself an artist in the same sense that you know, other people who are what I would consider professional artists, even though I’m sure I fit that category. [00:10:05]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, I have made money.

THERAPIST: Well –

CLIENT: With my art, but –

THERAPIST: Why have you not considered yourself an artist?

CLIENT: I was. I think it’s my own definition that you know I didn’t go to school to train to be an artist. So that’s my – that’s my criteria, you know.

THERAPIST: That’s the criteria?

CLIENT: I suppose.

THERAPIST: I don’t know if van Gogh went to school or not.

CLIENT: I don’t know if he did either. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But you know, I don’t put myself in that same category with those folks. And so it’s like yeah, I think it’s probably an important note because I think that looking back at kind of those old patterns, it’s like yeah, you know I feel like I’ve been an imposter. [00:10:48]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Okay, say more about that.

CLIENT: Yeah I just – it’s like well, you know – you know I suppose it’s all about the comparisons, comparing yourself to other people and other people’s arts.

THERAPIST: To whom are you comparing yourself?

CLIENT: I other professional woodworking artists [00:11:11]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: That are out there you know and it’s kind of like recognizing that it’s like yeah, you know what, you’re never going to win awards.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know with your stuff. And you know, I took this path of creating liturgical furniture –

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Which is like in the music world – [00:11:27]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like going down the road of being a liturgical musician.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It’s like serious artists –

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Really don’t take you seriously because you’re doing this liturgical stuff.

THERAPIST: Is that – is that what you need? You don’t feel like you’ve been taken seriously?

CLIENT: Well I would say that there’s a little bit of that.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I would say that that’s a little bit of the theme down there. Because I’ve heard myself say that kind of thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Not that – yeah, I don’t feel like it’s this huge need within, certainly within the world of woodworking. [00:12:04]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: It’s kind of like I’ve come to terms with. It’s like you know I’m satisfied with what I did.

THERAPIST: Are you?

CLIENT: I’m okay. Yeah. You know I really am.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know looking back on it, you know I’ve got a large portfolio of pictures and it’s like yeah, you know what we did some interesting stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know I’m not knocking it, we did some good stuff. And I don’t – I don’t feel this need to have made some kind of a name in the woodworking world. Because they’re recognized, it’s like yeah, you know that and five bucks would get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks. (chuckle) Yeah, like whatever. [00:12:37]

THERAPIST: You know it’s that there – I kind of have a lot of things in my head right now. Like this – your career paralleling some of the issues in your marriage, kind of in that outlet. But it – you know I think, it’s like there’s several ways to look at it. From the person on the outside, me, listening to the story, I just think wow, look at all of your talents. [00:12:59]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Right. You can, and look at how you easily dismiss them. So you went from being a teacher –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Which is one set of skills.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And then – and an artist.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: But you don’t define it as art, which is interesting., you know. And then you decide that you want to sort of be an artist full time and then you make money at it, it sounds like you’ve had a successful business, which is defined by I mean, putting you know, being able to help support your family, okay. [00:13:32]

CLIENT: Sure, yeah.

THERAPIST: And that works out well, it may not have been as fulfilling as you wanted, but you know, you sort of made a career change and now you are in a master’s program, you know enhancing another set of skills. So a person hearing that – I mean you could say, well you just can’t make up your mind.

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: It doesn’t really sound like that. I mean it sounds like you’re a man of many skills and interests.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: You know, kind of in addition to your search for truth and fulfillment. [00:14:02]

CLIENT: I think that – I think that a lot of the – I think a lot of the jumping around has – I think maybe earlier on –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: It may have more to do with you know, grabbing for the brass ring, as opposed to now it’s like the switch is yeah, you know what, meaning is more important in my life right now.

THERAPIST: Yeah. But what’s wrong with either of those things? Sometimes one leads to the other.

CLIENT: Oh, I’m – yeah, I’m not necessarily saying that it was – [00:14:30]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I’m not knocking it. It’s just a recognition that –

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Motivations earlier on.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know I’m sure that there was some level of meaning because I know that you know, I had made decisions based upon lifestyle and –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And you know – you know finding satisfaction in what I was doing and –

THERAPIST: Um-huh.

CLIENT: You know how it affected the family, all those kind of things were kind of utmost in you know, designing this cottage industry kind of thing. [00:15:02]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I recognize that that was there. You know, but I may have also been motivated by you know, I don’t know – you know kind of that personal goal as – which is okay. But now kind of recognizing that there’s kind of this deeper sense of like you know, trying to figure out what’s of meaning and how does this impact – you know, how can I be of service or – [00:15:31]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Benefit beyond just my own goals.

THERAPIST: What do you make of my interpretation of your being a man of many talents?

CLIENT: I think that that’s true.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Yeah. Now when I see that you know, and I think that I’m not exactly sure that I throw myself in the position of being a renaissance man. That always sounds a little pretentious. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But I think that I find that I’m not somebody who’s just satisfied for long periods of time – [00:16:06]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Doing the same thing over and over again.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know I’ve always valued in a job the fact that if one day doesn’t look like the last day –

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Then it’s a good job.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know. I think I had a factory job – I did have a factory job that I was trying to think about how long it lasted, but I think it was just one summer – [00:16:31]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Back after high school. And it was like this – if I hadn’t already made the decision to go to college –

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: This would have sealed the deal for me. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: Yeah. Do you internalize that? That sense of somebody who has a lot of skills and can be successful at those things?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You do?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know because I think setting out on – down this road of the – doing this master’s degree, you know is like – hum, I don’t really think that I spent much time in the doubt place. [00:17:06]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know it’s like I’m looking back, it’s like – you know and I’ve got a CV of –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Things that I’ve done, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know. You were a teacher, and you were a business man. And you built a house and you did all these things and it’s like you know, it’s kind of like I’ve got a track record of like you start something, you generally finish it. [00:17:30]

THERAPIST: Okay, that’s great.

CLIENT: And you know, you generally do a pretty good job at it. So I feel like yeah, you know, I’m going to get through this master’s degree program.

THERAPIST: Well there’s no doubt about that.

CLIENT: Maybe.

THERAPIST: You know all of these things are related though. Teaching and art, you know –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And counseling. There’s a pretty strong – even if you tie in you know, you’re looking at Taoism –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: All of those things are pretty related. Significantly. Do you see that? [00:18:05]

CLIENT: Maybe not as clearly as you’re seeing it. (chuckle) Maybe I’m seeing a thread of helping others.

THERAPIST: Helping others and in some ways of expression.

CLIENT: (sigh)

THERAPIST: In expressing yourself.

CLIENT: Umm, I’m not – yeah. Certainly I can see that with the – you know the art piece of it, but like expressing yourself through teaching – [00:18:42]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know being on stage, or what would you – how do you mean that?

THERAPIST: Well, so if you’re teaching, a good teacher reaches students.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Though a genuine relationship –

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That you have, that’s appropriate for teacher and student.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You know, you communicating, you’re developing relationships, [00:18:59]

CLIENT: Right. Right, right.

THERAPIST: In some ways teaching is its own form of artistry.

CLIENT: Right, yep. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. If you’re good at it.

CLIENT: I got it.

THERAPIST: And you’re not just – you know and you’re teaching students how to do something, right? And you’re reaching them through your art. You know now some of them will be like yeah, I don’t really care, but others –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Will take it and turn it into a skill, or at least feel valued.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And counseling is very similar.

CLIENT: Yeah, I get that now, yeah.

THERAPIST: So they’re pretty related.

CLIENT: Yeah, okay.

THERAPIST: So you’re career path is pretty consistent I would imagine with who you are, who you’ve always wanted to be. Your search for meaning and truth and for understanding, they’re related. [00:19:38]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: You know what I mean, maybe I already know that –

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Because I’m a teacher and a counselor at the same time.

CLIENT: (chuckle)

THERAPIST: But they’re deeply related to one another and art is a part of that. So whether you’re –

CLIENT: Um-hum, um-hum.

THERAPIST: A you know – so for example I have a history of being a musician myself.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But I wasn’t going to be winning any awards.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But my deep appreciation for music and the arts, right is sort of very relevant to what I do I think. [00:20:03]

CLIENT: Sure. Sure, sure.

THERAPIST: I mean you know, what do you make of that?

CLIENT: Well I think I – you know I think I see that and I think that I see – yeah, that I felt like my critique of myself as a teacher –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s like you know, you can look around and see, yeah people that they just don’t have it you know. [00:20:30]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And probably should go find something else to do because they’re making themselves and everybody else miserable. And I recognize that yeah, it is a craft and it is an art –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And for the most part you know, your students teach you how to become a teacher.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And you know, and I think one of the things that I you know, early on recognized that it’s like oh, yeah, you know I’m not teaching a subject.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I’m teaching kids.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know and that’s you know, that’s what you’re really focusing on. [00:21:00]

THERAPIST: Right. I mean it –

CLIENT: It doesn’t matter, I mean okay, this is the vehicle whereby I’m impacting kids’ lives.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know and it’s like I’m going to impact kids’ lives through this particular media. Could have been -

THERAPIST: Right, it doesn’t matter if the end result is they come out and become great artists themselves.

CLIENT: Yeah. The bottom line is you know, have I helped to push them down the path toward being you know, happier, healthier adults you know. [00:21:25]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And that’s – that was more important than like building the hutch or whatever, you know.

THERAPIST: Sure. Caring enough about them.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So your search for meaning, I mean in some ways maybe you’ve had it and haven’t recognized it.

CLIENT: Hum. I would say that I’ve – I would say that I’ve recognized it.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I would say that I have been somebody that’s been motivated by the search for meaning for a long time.

THERAPIST: That’s what it sounds like.

CLIENT: Yeah. And that you know even back –

THERAPIST: But you’ve had it I guess though is what I’m saying.

CLIENT: I’ve had it? Oh, I’ve had – [00:22:02]

THERAPIST: Meaning. Significant meaning.

CLIENT: Oh yeah, yeah. Right, right.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I also feel like you know, that that kind of ebbs and flows.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And it’s like recognizing it’s like okay, everything has its own cycle, you know.

THERAPIST: True.

CLIENT: And it’s like – and it’s okay. It’s okay that this particular – this particular chapter –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Is coming to an end.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And it – and I don’t stand at the end of this book or chapter of you know, the woodworking piece [00:22:36]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: In devastation.

THERAPIST: Sure. Okay.

CLIENT: You know it’s like, okay, we’ve done some good things, I’ve helped foster a couple of young men now to the place where you know, we’re trying to work on a contractual relationship where they’re going to be buying my tools from me and – [00:22:55]

THERAPIST: So you’re transitioning from that.

CLIENT: And you know I’m transitioning out of that and you know, I have – I went from having a class, several classes a day –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know to a classroom of one.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know kind of an apprentice kind of a relationship. And he’s clearly ready to fly on his own.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And that kind of thing. And it’s been good. It’s a good process, so –

THERAPIST: You sound ready.

CLIENT: Yeah. But for me to be at a place of like going to the – you know going to that cupboard –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Of like yeah, do I need to make any more art? Yeah, I don’t.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It’s just not there right now.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Maybe later, but right now, like, no. [00:23:30]

THERAPIST: You know I find it interesting that sort of your ease of acceptance of career changes –

CLIENT: Yeah, I look at that and I’m like –

THERAPIST: Which is awesome. And what about – but not more difficult the marital changes.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know I don’t feel like – yeah that’s a difficult one.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know and I guess to be honest you know, to be open enough to be able to say that, and I have to admit that you know, if anything has you know sat with me this week, [00:24:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s like that you know, it’s like I – and maybe that’s the best I could do was just to sit with you know, where we were at last week. And that’s like –

THERAPIST: That question.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Do you like your wife?

CLIENT: Yeah. And I just think I’ve been okay with being able to say, yeah, you know what, maybe it’s not a permanent I don’t like my wife, but –

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know right now I’m not liking it so much.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Not liking the relationship. Not liking the where we’re at. Not liking – yeah, and being able to say not liking the person so much right now. [00:24:33]

THERAPIST: What’s it like to say that out loud?

CLIENT: It’s okay. It’s okay to be in that place.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Even though I’m not necessarily sure I have any huge revelation about that, -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But it’s like oh, well, yeah, I can feel that and I’m not going to you know evaporate or anything. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know.

THERAPIST: Well that’s interesting because last week it was tough to kind of consider the question and it sounds like you’ve sat with it and this week. [00:24:59]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: What happened there?

CLIENT: I’m not sure that there’s any – you know just – but it’s just like sitting with that.

THERAPIST: Yeah, okay.

CLIENT: You know I read a – oh I don’t know where it was at – no I heard – ah, it doesn’t matter. It’s a story about a guy who went off, he was in the Peace Corp and he ended up going over to India and Burma and studying meditation. [00:25:30]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And he ended up in one of these one of these places where he was really trying – he had found this place of like deep bliss and peacefulness and he ended up having to come back to the states.

THERAPIST: Okay. [00:25:49]

CLIENT: So he worked in the states and he was getting some money and he was just dreaming about the whole time of like oh, I just want to get back to that. You know I want to go continue my studies and you know, after a couple of years he made it back. And he got back over there and he started to meditate again. It was like nothing. He – it was just like instead of this being this place of light and blissfulness, he described it as being a place of twisted steel and darkness, you know. [00:26:18]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And it was – he was so frustrated that he was like trying to get you know, trying to get back to that place that he had known. And his meditation teacher just – it’s like you’re missing the point, you’ve got to let that go.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know.

THERAPIST: What it was.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know it’s like you’re clinging to you know, that ideal of what you wanted it to be and he ended up, his meditation teacher sent him out to this hut and he recognized that instead of like – he recognized that really what it was about, that what meditation is about is like coming face to face – [00:27:02]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: With fear.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And just being able to be there with it.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And stare it down eye to eye.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know and not in that place of struggle, but just being with it in –

THERAPIST: Like sitting with it.

CLIENT: And he said that that night in the hut he had three candles lit and at some point he recognized in the corner of the hut, there was a snake. [00:27:25]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And he’s out in the jungle. And he said it was a king cobra.

THERAPIST: Oh God, ugh.

CLIENT: And he said that it was just sitting there staring at him.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And he said that they stared at each other –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: All night long. And in that process he recognized it was just him and the snake and the fear.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And by morning you know, he had fallen asleep – no, he had at some point toward the morning as the last candle was going out, he got up and bowed to the snake. [00:28:01]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And then went back to a corner and fell asleep and when he woke up the snake was gone. He says so I don’t even know if the snake was real –

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Or if I had imagined it. But it was that realization of you know coming face to face with the fear. You know and just being with the fear.

THERAPIST: That’s a powerful story.

CLIENT: And I think for me it’s like you know, there’s that sense that we spend so much of our life running away from – [00:28:31]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: The fear.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know and I think that – and I won’t say that I’ve always run away from fear because I feel like there’s a lot of things that I’ve just like hey, I’ll jump into this, you know.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And just go with it and see where it’s at. But I recognize that for umm, maybe ten years, I’ve been running away from you know the fear, or longer. Certainly longer that fear of you know, that ultimate fear of not being liked or – [00:29:01]

THERAPIST: You mean in your marriage or in general?

CLIENT: Well in life, but –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: In the marriage. I mean you know that’s all interwoven together.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s just this huge twisted ball of twine.

THERAPIST: So as you were reading that story –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: What did you take away from it for yourself?

CLIENT: That I feel like this this path toward you know counseling –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: The counseling degree and you know having this ability to do you know, some personal work on this – [00:29:33]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s recognizing yeah, you know this is, yeah just continuing to be – it’s like okay, I’m just sitting with this.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know it was kind of that – it was kind of that feeling of like okay, it maybe feels a little uncomfortable –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It certainly a little scary to be able to say that or to just be with that,

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But it was like – I feel like I’m in that place of just like well, me and the snake, we can just sit here now. [00:29:58]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know and I’m okay with that. You know, even though I don’t know where that’s going to lead –

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Even though it’s like – it’s like the important part right now is just to be with the fear. Just to be with the fear, you know.

THERAPIST: I think it’s a powerful thing to do that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: To be with fear, to be with grief –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: To sit with pain. It takes a kind of courage that I think that we don’t talk about, to just sit –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: With it and not do anything with it or about it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know – you know it kind of brings to mind a true thing you know, as you begin to work with your own clients you’ll have – you’ll realize that people have kids, they don’t like their own kids. [00:30:36]

CLIENT: Oh, sure.

THERAPIST: Or their kids are not likable. But not just in an instance or a period of time, continually. You know the world often – love and dislike and love and hate can live in the same house.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: There are these dichotomies that I imagine you’ve come across in your you know, meditative work. But you know, the hardest thing is to deal with them within us. [00:31:00]

CLIENT: Um-hum. Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: Loving someone –

CLIENT: Yeah. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Not liking someone, and getting rid of the should of our life.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: That we should be this way or it has to be this way and –

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, it sounds like even though you’ve just kind of been sitting with it, and that is a very powerful thing to do, let it sit there and resonate. It still sounds like over the last week there’s been a lot of growth. Because when I said it last week – [00:31:23]

CLIENT: (chuckle)

THERAPIST: You know, it was a tough thing for you to hear.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And to imagine what would it mean if it might be true. Right, what does that mean about me? What does it mean about my life, my relationship, you know. And this week you’ve kind of come back and said you know, I’m just going to sit with it.

CLIENT: Well –

THERAPIST: And maybe – maybe there are parts of it that’s true and that’s okay.

CLIENT: And I think that you know, in that story, you know, it’s like he – you know that’s pretty much the story but, just me just kind of you know interjecting into that story, it’s like coming to that place of recognizing, you know what, I’m just going to sit here. [00:32:00]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know, if I get bit and I get killed, okay. That’s –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That – but that’s one possible scenario here. But the other possible scenario is that you know, we can figure out how to coexist, or –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know the snake ends up becoming a bunny rabbit, you know I –

THERAPIST: (laughing)

CLIENT: (laugh) You know there’s – but it’s like I know that the intuitive or the instinctual reaction – [00:32:32]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: To being with the snake was to get the hell out of the hut.

THERAPIST: Sure. Because why would we want to stay in the fight or flight, you know.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, so now it’s like recognizing oh, I can be here. Well, and maybe the snake’s not so bad.

THERAPIST: Maybe not.

CLIENT: You know, so.

THERAPIST: Right. And, but I think the idea of choice has to be recognized.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: You know.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: You have a choice, you’re not – you know as we talked about last week, you’re not stuck. And in fact you’re sort of really not stuck at all, you’re growing pretty rapidly. [00:33:03]

CLIENT: Um-hum, um-hum, um-hum.

THERAPIST: And sort of you know, continuing to, I don’t know figuring out who you are is the right word, because I think you have a sense of who you are, a pretty strong sense. But acknowledging, accepting, embracing those parts of yourself, all of them maybe.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: I mean is there any accuracy in that statement?

CLIENT: Yeah. You know and if there’s you know, in terms of what’s been going on this week, well the whole week has been steeped in Adlerian [ph] theory. [00:33:29]

THERAPIST: (laugh) How do you like Adler?

CLIENT: I’m – I’m going with it for now.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know, I’m feeling like, well who knows where I’m at a year from now. But as I’m looking at all the theories, you know, I thought originally going into this you know theories class that I would probably be leaning most towards Ragerian [ph]. [00:33:52]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And there’s certainly a lot of things. There’s a lot of things about all of the theories –

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: That you know, that I could pull from this. But I think what I find – ultimately what I found that I could embrace the most in Adler was that sense of holistic – [00:34:08]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: The holistic person.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And you know and I kind of – are you familiar with Meyers and Sweeney’s wholeness, or wellness model?

THERAPIST: No, I don’t think I am.

CLIENT: They took Adler’s theory – [00:34:30]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And made this – their book, their seminal book was called “Counseling for Wellness”.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So they’re taking you know, kind of the major concepts from Adler –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And just putting it into this model where it’s like to be a well person, you know you have to have all of these concepts in balance.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know they put spirituality at the center of their model. And then it’s you know the physical part –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know being you know, in good physical shape, and relationship, and work, [00:35:01]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And leisure and there’s one other. But they all kind of you know – and then they’ve done like 30 years’ worth of empirical research –

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: In terms of like coming up with an instrument that rates –

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know where you fall on this. Blah, blah, blah – you don’t need to hear all this. But you know, I’m looking at that and thinking about well, you know maybe, you know my physical side is okay right now. [00:35:30]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know but it’s like okay, this relationship side, not so. You know so looking at the whole person, looking at the wellness of –

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: The whole person, it’s just recognizing that you know, need to work on some areas because some areas –

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well I’m sure it’s you know, difficult to be in 100 percent balance, 100 percent of the time.

CLIENT: Right. Right, yes. So it’s it’s always an evaluative type of thing. and it’s like recognizing okay, [00:35:59]

THERAPIST: You think that’s the biggest part that’s out of balance for you, the relational part?

CLIENT: Well it’s a big part.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It’s a big part because I think that like to me, or for me, and it’s connected to our recognizing that you know the social piece is also out of skew.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And it’s like, hum, okay well how many really close friends do I have? Hum.

THERAPIST: Why do you think that is?

CLIENT: I don’t know. That’s a good question. I mean I’m hearing some, you know past tape that’s playing that says well if you want to be a friend – or if you want a friend, you’ve got to be a friend. And yeah. I think that you know, and I think that there’s you know, I’ve read and I think that it’s probably pretty common that men find – [00:36:56]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Intimacy you know, married men find intimacy in their spouse and not so much the other way around. I think you may have even said that too.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: But you know it all clicked you know, it’s like (deep breath) . So I’m like okay, if I’ve got this – if I’ve got this story that says that the only place that I can – the only place, now and I recognized that’s a self-imposed story, but the only place I can find intimacy is in my marriage relationship, and that’s not going so well, then not so much intimacy. And it’s like okay, how do I foster that outside of the marriage relationship – [00:37:39]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Without the metaphor was how do I do that without you know, I’ve got this whole image of Wylie Coyote, have I told you this one?

THERAPIST: I think so. Refresh my memory.

CLIENT: Just (chuckle) the picture of Wylie Coyote you know standing at the plunger of a dynamite charge. [00:38:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Only he’s like just right in front of the big pile of dynamite.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know like without blowing up my life, how do I do this without blowing up my life.

THERAPIST: And do you mean by blowing up your life, sort of seeking intimacy from another woman? Is that what you mean?

CLIENT: Well, yeah. It’s like I have always had the ability, I think to have closer relationships with females –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Then men.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it turns out the closest male relationship that I’ve had – [00:38:29]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Over the last ten years –

THERAPIST: That they were with Italy, yeah.

CLIENT: is Italy. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I’m like oh, okay, well that’s why we had such a close relationship. (laugh) [00:38:37]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I don’t know, is it just that men in general don’t know how to have intimate relationships? I don’t know.

THERAPIST: It might mean that intimacy is defined differently amongst two heterosexual men. But one of the things that becomes clear is that that’s what you’re wanting, needing, craving. [00:38:59]

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: Because we all do.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So, you know –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Maybe we next need to look at where you can get that need met. Because it’s a real human need.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: It’s – it’s you know to feel fully supported and you know accepted –

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You know, you have to get that need met.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: It’s critically important.

CLIENT: Yeah, I – yeah. I recognize that you know, and I know that there’s part of me that feels like well, some of that might need to come within too. [00:39:33]

THERAPIST: Um-hum. Explain.

CLIENT: Well you know it’s like, if I truly felt that sense of self acceptance –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Would I need it so much from other buddy – other people.

THERAPIST: I think that’s a good – a good question. But are you talking about –I mean I guess intimacy does imply some acceptance. But you know –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: As opposed to you know, we’ve talked about needing to be liked, that’s one thing. [00:40:01]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: But the need for emotional intimacy –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: To share your thoughts and emotions –

CLIENT: Deepest thoughts.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And emotion, yeah.

THERAPIST: Even if you fully accept yourself, which all of us I think work to do.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You might still have that need –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because it’s not the same. It – you know they feed from one another. But even if you fully accepted yourself off in the desert somewhere, [00:40:29]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You would still have a need probably to connect with others and have close relationships with others. That’s part of who you are is important.

CLIENT: Yeah I feel like there’s probably you know, it’s like wow, is there really anybody on the planet that I feel like I can go to to feel that sense of just like you know, unconditional acceptance. [00:40:53]

THERAPIST: And?

CLIENT: Not right now.

THERAPIST: How is that to say?

CLIENT: You know I’ve been with that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know and it’s a recognition. It’s like oh, well here’s a condition –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know and I think that I’ve gotten to that place of like recognizing oh, all right, this is loneliness.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know it’s kind of like the snake in the room. Can I just be with the loneliness right now? You know and it’s like I’m not going to run from you.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know, this is loneliness. This is an issue that I’m going to deal with.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And loneliness is -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Really hard. I mean we don’t often talk about loneliness and I think – [00:41:33]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That sometimes –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Loneliness is deeply painful –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: But in some ways it’s almost mockingly more painful when you’re married, because it –

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. You’re recognize it’s like, you know often times –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I said, well whoever came up with this – this particular social arrangement and this wasn’t very – this – I’m not liking it so much. (laugh)

THERAPIST: You know you laugh, but what is it that you feel when you think about your loneliness? [00:42:01]

CLIENT: Well it’s – it’s being in a position of being stuck.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know and I think that that’s – you know that’s that metaphor that maybe I early – I used early on.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That sense of like whatever quicksand or not quicksand, but you’re just kind of mired, it’s like I’m stuck, I don’t know how to move.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know it’s like which way can I move?

THERAPIST: So you have in one area of your life all of this growth, and the other you know – [00:42:32]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Career wise, recognizing more skills.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And the other sort of deep sense of loneliness. And loneliness is –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Just painful. Just painful.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah it is. And so you know, you instinctually –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: You know over the past you do things to to run away from that.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: To cover it up and not feel it. So let’s get busier with work, let’s go – let’s you know, do something else, whatever, but let’s cover up the loneliness. [00:43:04]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know. And prior – like I really haven’t – I gave up drinking when I gave up the you know, when my stomach went – when I had my stomach problems. But you know, having two or three gin and tonics at night –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Yeah, that kind of – that of puts the salve on things, you know.

THERAPIST: That numbs it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah so giving all of that up just kind of brings it you know, [00:43:32]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: A little bit more raw in your face. So.

THERAPIST: What’s it like to talk about?

CLIENT: Hum. No I recognize it you know, that that’s the issue.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Or that is an issue.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know it’s a tough issue. Hum. But the little story of the snake, or the metaphor of the snake is a helpful one right now. It’s like okay. [00:44:01]

THERAPIST: So maybe it’s not about fear for you, maybe it’s the snake is loneliness.

CLIENT: (big sigh)

THERAPIST: Facing whatever.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know there’s certainly fear.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: There’s fear in figuring out how to negotiate –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Or work through this –

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Relationship in order to be able to deal with –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know the loneliness, the you know, the disappointment, the whatever. You know those kind of things that I’m feeling. It’s just like, okay. [00:44:34]

THERAPIST: I think some of it might be about your working to build connections with other people.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: I think we can be fed in different ways by different people.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It may not be you know –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Deeply emotionally, intimate, but each – each sort of relationship, whether it’s superficial and kind –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Of on the outer circle. Or ones we build on the inner circle, might help with some of the loneliness as opposed to kind of looking towards your wife. Which is – [00:45:02]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Not satisfactory right now.

CLIENT: Right. Well and certainly the you know the program here, you know –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Developing relationships here.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it’s like you know initially you know, the first couple of semesters you don’t know anybody.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And so you’re not making relationships now. We’re making a few more relationship and it’s like oh, okay, there’s some camaraderie going on here. It’s like okay, this is –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: This is life giving.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know this is good.

THERAPIST: The G-issue actually is a really good place for that. It’s hard – I think the older you get the harder it is to build connections with people – [00:45:33]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Because you’re sort of – people are established –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Doing what they’re doing, but G-issue given its non-traditional status –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: At least at the moment, is a place that you get another opportunity to do that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So I’m glad to hear that you’re starting to do that.

CLIENT: No, it’s – it’s there and I – and I see that –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I get that. Darn it I just had a thought there that went away. It will come back. (pause) Hum. I know it was related to like kind of that sense of dumping all of those needs for – [00:46:19]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Intimacy on one person. It’s like yeah, you know that’s really not very fair you know, to the other person.

THERAPIST: Well, (sigh)

CLIENT: And -

THERAPIST: You know and kind of as we end today, I’ll have you think about – I don’t know if that’s what you did. [00:46:34]

CLIENT: Oh I don’t think I did either.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I don’t think that that’s what you did. But you had an expectation for –

CLIENT: But maybe for me to have the expectation that all of my intimacy needs should be met by one person is an unfair, or an unrealistic –

THERAPIST: Or, I think –

CLIENT: Expectation.

THERAPIST: I think we have to flush that out a bit. Maybe you just want some.

CLIENT: (laugh) I’ll take anything.

THERAPIST: Good. Well yeah.

CLIENT: What do you got? (laughing)

THERAPIST: Yeah. So maybe – maybe you just want some. I don’t know about all. [00:47:01]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: So are we on for next week?

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I think. Let’s see what is next week?

THERAPIST: No, not next week, it’s Thanksgiving.

CLIENT: No, it’s Thanksgiving. [00:47:10]

END TRANSCRIPT