TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(laughter and inaudible conversation)

CLIENT: No turkey day was – we drove to my parents in (inaudible at 00:00:17) which is over near Dunlap.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Just—I call it Carmi.

THERAPIST: (laughs) (inaudible at 00:00:27) I don’t think I have heard of (inaudible). Were they hit by any of the kind of tornado stuff?

CLIENT: Five miles away.

THERAPIST: Oh my goodness.

CLIENT: I actually had a cousin – she and her husband and their newborn made it to the basement but the house was wiped out. And my little brother – younger brother – who was on his way to an auto parts store and is rolling into the town as the tornado was coming through. [00:01:00]

THERAPIST: Oh!

CLIENT: And he couldn’t decide which way it was coming.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: He ended up turning and the tornado chased him. This tornado was travelling at sixty miles an hour.

THERAPIST: Oh goodness gracious.

CLIENT: He was flying down the highway at like a hundred and ten trying to out run it.

THERAPIST: Trying to get away from it.

CLIENT: And so it was interesting. So we had some stories.

THERAPIST: I bet!

CLIENT: Stories to tell.

THERAPIST: Everyone is okay?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah you know with the amount of damage that happened in that little town there was only like one death I think. That was related to the tornado. So. Yeah. So.

THERAPIST: How is it for you when you get together with your family?

CLIENT: Yeah I was trying to pay attention to that. I think what I’ve kind of recognized is that over the years it’s gotten more comfortable. [00:01:55]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Now it’s expanding so now it’s like my siblings’ children are – they’re all the ages –. Probably the youngest right now is like grade school. So my younger sister, who is eleven years younger than me, her youngest is still is grade school but the vast majority of kids are all kind of clumped together in that college age.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And moving on. Some of them are starting to bring home boyfriend/girlfriend kind of thing. So. Yeah it’s quite a little bit less drama.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And those kind of things. So I was just noting that quality of it. You know, for the day. So yeah. So I was trying to be mindful of what was going on in terms of like quality of conversation. You know, those kind of things that were happening. It was interesting that— I have three younger brothers. And we’re all within about a year, year and a half apart. [00:03:29]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: In terms of age. So we were just kind of clustered together. And at one point it became apparent that we’re all in the same boat. Even though we weren’t like having that conversation, it was enough bits of pieces of conversation where it’s like we’re all in the same boat.

THERAPIST: Explain all in the same boat.

CLIENT: Well you know just that sense of like we’re middle age.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Kids are growing up and moving out. And we’re finding ourselves in relationships that are like, “Yeah.” We’re just looking at each other. It’s like the words don’t even really need to be said or something.

THERAPIST: That’s interesting!

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Was that comforting for you? Or –

CLIENT: No I don’t know about comforting. You know other – I don’t know. Does one feel comforted when – it’s not this bad, I’m just saying – when you’re not the only guy in line for the gallows? (laughing) [00:04:38]

THERAPIST: Well at least you’re not alone!

CLIENT: Yeah exactly. (laughing)

THERAPIST: But what sort of brought you to that place? Because I don’t get the impression that–

CLIENT: Oh my younger brother – my youngest brother has a relationship which is really pretty difficult. His wife was diagnosed after they were married with bipolar.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And it seemed like – when they had kids that seemed to really exasperate that.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And she’s really been – she’s got substance abuse issues and bipolar.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. And it’s been a couple of years since we’ve seen her at any family functions. She just doesn’t –

THERAPIST: And was she there this time? [00:05:28]

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And then he’s got two – twins and they are probably twenty, twenty-one years old.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And they had really incredibly good grades. They were like top ten of the students in high school.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But – I think they even had potential scholarships to different colleges but they sort of – they (inaudible at 00:06:01). They’re really pretty tight. They hang together. (sighs) And one of them is really into tattoos and piercings and it’s almost – my brother. You can sort of see that like one of twins is kind of following Mom’s path. [00:06:27]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And it’s probably not going to be really surprising if he ends up bipolar. And the other one – maybe not so much. So but I think he’s – my youngest brother – is feeling a lot of depression. You could really see it on his face. So it was just –

THERAPIST: Oh would it be something you would consider building a connection with him around? Or –

CLIENT: I think we’ve tried. I think of all my brothers that he and I probably are the least – we’ve had the least connection over the years. But we’ve had a couple of conversations in regards to that relationship and his relationship with his wife. Yeah I think there is just sort of this sense of like he’s not sure what to do. But I think that – you know I started – he was using words like “divorce” a little bit. Maybe not divorce but – [00:07:35]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah or indicating, “I don’t know how much longer this is going to last.” Kind of thing. (sighs)

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. So as much as he was open to that I was trying to start a couple of different conversations with him. Whether or not it was – the fact that we were in a relatively crowded space.

THERAPIST: Right. Exactly.

CLIENT: You’re not going to have a really intimate conversation. So I felt was it that or he just didn’t want to go there and wasn’t really sure about that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. But we’ve talked about it’s hard to make connections for you. Especially connections with other men. [00:08:24]

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: And I wonder if – and this may not be the case because sometimes when a relationship is kind of set sometimes it’s kind of set. But other times not. And I wonder – as you kind of look around the table at your brothers who you feel are in similar places and you kind of get it – that there are so few people who get it.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: You know because from the outside most people are healthy and everybody is doing what they’re doing. But on the inside there is a lot of pain happening.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because this did not turn out the way –

CLIENT: (chuckling)

THERAPIST: the way that you wanted it to turn out. Not just you but it sounds like your brother and (inaudible at 00:09:04) as well.

CLIENT: Yeah it could be. Yeah it could be.

THERAPIST: What would it be like for you to try to build a bridge there?

CLIENT: Yeah I think that that’s really – yeah I don’t see that as –. The only problem is just the geographical distance and the time kind of thing. [00:09:28]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I have one younger brother that I’m probably a little bit closer – is that your phone? Oh okay – that we’ve been able to sort of maintain a kind of relationship but the other two not at much. So I’m still feeling like that is a relationship with my brother Bill that I’ve wanted to keep going and keep expanding.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah so not that I’m opposed to doing that with any of them it’s just whether or not there is a reciprocal –.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: – need or desire there.

THERAPIST: And what happens if let’s say you make an overture and there is not, then what?

CLIENT: You know I think it’s okay.

THERAPIST: And what happens if there is?

CLIENT: I’m okay with that too. (inaudible) [00:10:29]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So there is not a whole lot of risk.

CLIENT: No. No there is not. No and I don’t necessarily feel anxious about any of that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So in recognizing that we uniquely share things in common that I don’t share in common with anybody else on the planet.

THERAPIST: True.

CLIENT: So yeah.

THERAPIST: Just something to think about because it strikes me as a bit of a parallel process.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: And you’re born into siblings and it doesn’t mean you’ll be close. It just doesn’t. But the parallel processes – you’re having this common experience with your brothers. At least from the outside. Looking outside in.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: And you’re shut out of building a connection, right? And you live with your wife and you’re shut out of building a connection.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know – (sigh). You know I do recognize that the common – a common factor in that is the me part of that. [00:11:38]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And it’s like, well really looking at what it is about me that I can change to make those connections happen a little bit better.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: It’s like clearly we can do everything we can. We can stand on our heads and jump up and down or whatever.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And yeah. Sometimes you’re just never going to get – you’re just not going to get in.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And it’s like I’m good with that. But I really want to make sure that I’m being honest with myself in terms of am I really open to this. Am I really or is it – I don’t know. It is the kind of thing where I even really tried or –

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: or you open the door just enough to know. [00:12:38]

THERAPIST: Sure. So what did you come up with when you thought about that?

CLIENT: Well I had an experience shortly after – you know part of it is I recognize that – I think the last time we were talking I was kind of mentioning this metaphor that I was sitting with which was just the snake in the hut.

THERAPIST: That’s right.

CLIENT: You remember that metaphor so I’ve kind of stayed with that. It’s been there for me. I recognized that over the holiday, when my kids were at home, I was starting to tap into some feelings that I hadn’t had for a while. [00:13:26]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: It was like okay. So this is the first year perhaps in like about two or three where we’ve been at this house.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Okay. That’s right.

CLIENT: And it’s – there was like decorating going on for the holidays and that kind of stuff. And it’s like I recognized that in the past that was just kind of this place of like kicking into kind of a depression. I don’t know if it was a seasonal kind of thing. That was a pattern. I know that that pattern –

THERAPIST: Where you would get kind of depressed from the holidays?

CLIENT: Kind of depressed and whatever.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I’m not really sure that I ever had any resolve to that or whatever. But it was like okay I recognize that there is that kind of thing going on.

THERAPIST: Did that happen to you this time as well?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. It was – I was in a slightly different place in that I was able to kind of step aside from it and be able to observe what was happening.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. What was happening?

CLIENT: Mm. I’m not necessarily sure I have – other than I knew that there was some depression. I knew that there was some frustration. The sensation or those feelings of loneliness. Kind of being outside of what’s going on. [00:14:52]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Feelings.

THERAPIST: So you felt depressed and lonely. Sad.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that I kind of got into that place where I was just kind of quiet.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Kind of like whatever. Not jovial. Meh.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: Those kind of things. So I recognized that the family was doing its thing. Like “What’s wrong Dad? What’s going on here? What are you feeling?” So that’s from the kids.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And I recognized that that mm. Okay so those natural tendencies. It’s like okay so this is how I deal with that. It’s like, “Oh I’m fine. Oh I’m just a little tired.” I’m a little–

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: It’s like –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You’re not addressing the issue. It’s like –

THERAPIST: How did you want to address the issue?

CLIENT: I recognized that point early on that it was like, “Mm.” I was able to see what was happening but it was too frightening to think about how to change that. [00:16:07]

THERAPIST: You know what’s interesting in the way that you describe feelings is you kind of describe them external to yourself. There was depression. There was loneliness. Instead of I felt depressed and lonely.

CLIENT: Well that’s a conscious thing that’s going on.

THERAPIST: Tell me about it.

CLIENT: It’s part of – it’s kind of that, part of my meditation practice.

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: To be able to see what’s happening.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know so it’s like to be able to at least name the feeling.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Before it was kind of like um, you’re in this funk and it’s just like all you know is that it’s like whatever, this God awful place, this feeling. And it’s like I don’t want to be here and it’s that sense of you’re just running away as fast as you can. It’s almost like you’re a person on fire. You’re running away. And running away isn’t helping anything. It’s just fanning the flames. [00:17:13]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So the practice is more of like can you turn into it and just observe what’s happening. So that’s the practice that I feel I’m trying to –

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So when I say that’s – so for me it’s kind of a new place.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Of being able to say okay this is what’s going on right now. Can you see –

THERAPIST: And what would it be like to sort of actively feel it in the moment?

CLIENT: And I really was trying to be there with that which was the metaphor of being in the hut.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Can you just be with the feeling right now?

THERAPIST: And?

CLIENT: So I recognized in being with the feeling that it’s manifesting itself in bodily ways –[00:18:05]

THERAPIST: Yes. Right.

CLIENT: so I’m kind of like this depressed and sad and lonely guy.

THERAPIST: And why do you think that was the case?

CLIENT: (sighs) Um, triggers. Things that were going on.

THERAPIST: Like?

CLIENT: Maybe the triggers of hauling down the holiday stuff or whatever.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Why is that? I’m not a hundred percent sure.

THERAPIST: Is this sort of the picture of who you would want your family to be? Sometimes I think people – a lot of times people really struggle with the holidays because it’s sort of what I want it to be like.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: What it is. Or the fact that your kids are older so things are changing. Is it I’m lonely or is it sort of grief or loss of times past? What do you think it is? [00:19:00]

CLIENT: (sighs) I actually had this feeling or what I was sensing was that – my kids maybe not as much – but my wife was really in this place of trying to hang onto or recreate that that what has been kind of thing.

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: You know? And there was this – and I was just like, “You know what? It’s a new time. It’s a new space.” Whatever.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Things and then there was kind of this rigid sense of things that have to happen. And we’re going to do this. And –

THERAPIST: Did that make you angry?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah there was anger in that. And then it doesn’t take long before you jump to it’s like, aw, there is really no connection here in terms of – we’re not discussing any of this. It’s just –

THERAPIST: Tell me what made you angry. [00:20:08]

CLIENT: Mm. Yeah I don’t know. Probably that sense of is it anger or is it loneliness? I’m not a hundred percent sure. It’s just like –

THERAPIST: There was some anger at her.

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s like – and yeah. Okay so just staying with the anger and trying not to rationalize it but just – (sighs). Anger at that inability. And another part of me is trying to (laughs) fight myself from saying this but it’s like “Look just let it go. Let go of trying to be ten years old or whatever. And trying to –” And there is that sense of just trying to recreate. [00:21:18]

THERAPIST: And why does that make you angry?

CLIENT: Um, because it feels like she’s stuck.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: She is stuck in a place, in a time or whatever.

THERAPIST: What’s the place?

CLIENT: (sighs) You know it’s always the past.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Is it one particular place? I’m not a hundred percent sure about that but it’s certainly with her mom. And with her elderly aunts and uncles. And it – maybe when she was in high school. (inaudible) [00:21:58]

THERAPIST: And do you see why this is connected to the loneliness?

CLIENT: Yeah. Because she’s there and I’m here.

THERAPIST: That’s right. Because it’s sort of like all of these things come together. Because as long as she’s stuck in a place she can’t see you or be with you.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: Because she’s stuck back there.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: Right? Trying to force it. To make it be what it’s not.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: Right? And my guess is it probably pisses you off on a very deep level because while she’s stuck doing what she’s doing, absorbed in that experience, she’s left you lonely in yours.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know there is this sense of when I was closer to that time and some of those people were still alive –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: it was like we could be together. But as those people died off and life kept moving on –

THERAPIST: Right. She stayed there and you moved. [00:22:58]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And is that where one of the breaks, if you look at the timeline, that happened in the relationship? Is that when the force field came up?

CLIENT: Oh yeah. And with each successive death it just –

THERAPIST: Retreated farther and farther. And so that’s why it made you angry.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I guess I never really thought about the anger part because I don’t think that I allow myself to go there. Because it’s like then you’ve got the issue of “really you’re going to be angry at somebody who has had all this loss in their life?” And blah, blah, blah.

THERAPIST: I find it interesting how you will talk yourself out of your feelings.

CLIENT: I know. I know! I know and I was really fighting it. Just to sit with it.

THERAPIST: And I saw that. But it also makes you more angry. Before anyone else has a chance to dismiss your feelings, you dismiss them very quickly.

CLIENT: Yeah I know. I know.

THERAPIST: But they’re very justified. Feelings just are. [00:23:54]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: They don’t have – and as you were talking earlier about observing the feeling, you can’t observe it and be with it at the same time.

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: You know we talk about being – as you learn in your group class, the participant observer. People don’t do that well.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: You can’t observe it from a distance and be in it feeling it.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: So and if you are in the hut with the snake –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: to me it’s about being with it.

CLIENT: That’s the fear. Yeah. Being with the fear. Being with the pain. Being with the anger.

THERAPIST: Being with your own – your feelings are valid.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: In some ways they’re the essence of being human. The ability to feel, connect. Right? Attachment loss causes loneliness.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you are angry at her. Sad at what will not be.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Pissed that she’s so rigid and that she doesn’t see you. And I’ve thought about this. This idea of not being touched. Tell me. [00:25:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. No. Yeah it’s like –

THERAPIST: That’s the part, my guess is, where loneliness is really not being touched. To be not touched could be a very painful experience.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: Can you talk about that a little bit?

CLIENT: No I think that – it’s one of those things like I grew up in a family where physical affection was not shown.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And it wasn’t until maybe my youngest sister, my little sister, that my folks went to some workshop or something about parenting –

THERAPIST: After the three boys are out.

CLIENT: Four.

THERAPIST: Right. Four boys.

CLIENT: Yeah then they were starting to warm up to the idea of hugging. And it wasn’t until my brother, one of my brothers, brought home his fiancée who was just like, “We all hug. This is what normal people do.” And she forced the family to hug each other kind of thing. And it’s become a more commonplace occurrence. My mother and I still don’t have that relationship. [00:26:26]

THERAPIST: Where you hug?

CLIENT: It’s gotten to this place of like – it’s almost is this kind of half hug kind of a thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Interestingly my dad is more comfortable with hugging. But my mom is like – and she. We’ve tried. We’ve experimented a couple of times. Not you know –

THERAPIST: How does that feel for you?

CLIENT: But to be able to say “I love you” on either side.

THERAPIST: Okay. And what about you and your kids?

CLIENT: Oh I think that we’ve been very intentional about showing affection and being able to say I love you and things like that with the kids. [00:27:12]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: But it’s just really interesting that it’s not there with my mom. And I’m like, “Wow, would you look at that? Would you look at the relationship?” Wow, wow.

THERAPIST: The parallels with the wife.

CLIENT: Wow would you look at that? (laughing)

THERAPIST: When you think about not being touched not only sexually, but non-sexually as well, how do you feel about that?

CLIENT: Well it’s – you know you read those stories about infant gorillas dying or whatever. Or even babies.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Because of lack of human interaction or touch. Or whatever. And it’s like, “Yeah I get that.”

THERAPIST: We need it.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughing)

THERAPIST: And in some ways if you read some of the literature on intimacy and male intimacy, men need it even more. Especially heterosexual men because they don’t get touched except by their wives. [00:28:10]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right. Heterosexual married men I should say.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Gay men are better at it. They can touch each other. Right? But heterosexual men there is this stigma of being gay. And so women can touch each other.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And so this is one of the reasons why sex for married, heterosexual men becomes even more important because the only place they get touched and physically validated is – you know.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there you go.

THERAPIST: And that’s been missing for a while.

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Which is one of the reasons why some of the loneliness is justified.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that even when touch and sexuality was a part of the relationship, there was even then – and I don’t know how far back we have to go. Maybe it was there from the beginning. [00:29:05]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I’m not a hundred percent sure. Not – and it was clearly a continuum or – but there was just that sense of –. At some point you begin to recognize that it’s like this person doesn’t want you to touch her.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Or there is this uncomfortableness. And it’s like what’s that all about?

THERAPIST: Can you tell me a little bit about that?

CLIENT: Mm. Um, I don’t know. Um. (pause at 00:29:43 until 00:29:50) Yeah I think that it just became kind of this unspoken rule or unspoken condition that affection just sort of became a – physical affection of any kind – really just became uncomfortable. (inaudible) [00:30:20]

THERAPIST: And uncomfortable on her part? On your part? Or well obviously if she’s uncomfortable then you’ll be uncomfortable.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think for me it’s like whether it was – and there was certainly a kind of a spoken discussion or a verbal discussion about no more sex. Right now.

THERAPIST: How did that go?

CLIENT: Um, you know it was I think the wording was something like, “I just need you not to touch me” or something like “We need not do this for awhile.” Or something like that. [00:31:15]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And I was just like, “Okay.” And it was kind of like –

THERAPIST: And you felt what about it?

CLIENT: I felt like at that point I was trying to be respectful.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And it was like, “Okay what’s going on here?” And it’s like well automatically when you’re in that situation – when I’m in that situation—and it’s like, “Okay.”

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: (chuckles) You know there are all kinds of messages about “So you’re going to be guy who is going to push this now? How insensitive is that?” (laughs) It’s like –

THERAPIST: Well okay maybe it might have been insensitive at that very moment but then we got to seven years.

CLIENT: Yeah. I know. I know.

THERAPIST: So this sort of denial of your own need. So was there ever a kind of try to return to physical intimacy or that was it? [00:32:05]

CLIENT: Yeah that was it.

THERAPIST: Why for you?

CLIENT: You know I think that it was one of those kind of things that now you kind of look back on and it’s like that experience of being in Lake Erie.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know it’s like you’re up here on the shore and it’s really cold. The water is really cold.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it’s like you’re just going to get your feet wet.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And eventually, over time, you’ve kind of now all of a sudden you’re out up to your neck in the water and it’s like, “How the hell did I get here?” And it was like one little step at a time.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And it’s like along with the fact that I can’t talk about this. It was like – and it just keeps compounding or whatever. [00:33:03]

THERAPIST: Well I see where a depression happened because all of this stuff is repressed. And it’s sort of like – I told you I had a friend whose mother was having surgery and she had some type of heart surgery. And there was some weird thing that happened with her and the anesthesia where she could feel it but she couldn’t speak.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: So she’s screaming from the inside because she can feel it but she can’t speak. So it still looks like she’s asleep. And she finally did wake up and they put her back under but she – but it kind of strikes as an apt analogy.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because being the good guy in your mind is somehow an important thing to do. We’ve gone back to the theme of people liking you. But you’ve suffered tremendously for it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: As opposed to saying, “Hold the hell up! Wait a minute!”

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you’re angry about it. Justifiably so. [00:34:05]

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think – yeah I’m angry. I’m angry.

THERAPIST: But you’re also punishing yourself.

CLIENT: I’m recognizing –

THERAPIST: It’s like this form of self-punishment. What did you do that was so terrible that you have to punish yourself in this way?

CLIENT: Mm. Yeah that’s a good point. Because now it looks like the self-punishment is more directed at “Well why can’t you talk?” “What’s your problem?” “What’s your problem that you can’t –” You know just talk and be open about this. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. Explain where that came from. You mean that’s your punishment?

CLIENT: Well that’s where I’m at now.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know that there’s more – the anger that I feel.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know I can see that it’s like a pattern of like just sitting with that. It’s like, “Really? You’re going to punish yourself?” Do you see what you did there?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So now there is this sense of like being angry at that part of myself that allowed me to do that. Does that make sense? [00:35:11]

THERAPIST: It does.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: But you know it came from a really – I mean that’s a lifetime of socialization. It started at home. We don’t hug in this family is code for so many things. We don’t hug. We don’t say I love you. And that’s common in many cultures, all right?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: But it means we don’t feel in ways that we say we do. We don’t communicate emotions openly. We don’t, we don’t, we don’t. Right? If you are a sensitive kid – and I imagine that you were a sensitive kid and an empath – that that felt normal even if you didn’t like it. Right? It may have felt normal even if you didn’t like it.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: So then of course then you have a lifetime of socializing of don’t.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: Right? Don’t. Don’t be. Don’t do. Right? And even your kind of looking at philosophy and kind of meditation is the exploring of the why. [00:36:09]

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: Exploring the “Well you’re just supposed to sit with it.” Even observing the feelings. I’m supposed to sit and observe.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: As opposed to being a part of it when you’re an intensely feeling man.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: You know I’d almost rather you scream.

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: You laugh.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I would – yeah. I did get to a place over the holiday.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: After the kids (inaudible at 00:36:44) and my wife – she’s like, “What’s going on?” She’s asking me. “You seem – something’s up.” You know? “You seem like you’re not yourself.” Or whatever. And I recognized in that moment that it’s like, “Okay. Here it is. Here it is. What are you going to do with this?” [00:37:08]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Okay.

CLIENT: You know? So it’s like recognizing that it was very difficult to be with the snake and just – you know. And it was like I don’t really remember now – because I was trying to kind of like reconstruct this – and it was like “Oh I wish I had the handy little tape recorder.” (chuckles)

THERAPIST: What did you say?

CLIENT: (sighs) I don’t know if I can remember everything that I said but more a sense of what I said was really trying to stay with – yeah because what was wanting to come out was “Well I’m tired.” Or I’m this. Where it’s something that was going to skirt the issue. [00:37:53]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I – you know I think I tried to explain to her where I was at and that I was really trying to just stay with whatever the feeling was. And I think she was –

THERAPIST: Did you tell her what the feeling was?

CLIENT: I think she was trying to help me get to like “Well what are you feeling?” And I’m feeling – (sighs). I think that I was able to say that I had felt this sense like this is – the most that I could get out was that it’s difficult for me to feel in this family.

THERAPIST: Okay. Good for you!

CLIENT: So it’s just like okay –

THERAPIST: And how did she respond?

CLIENT: (sighs) You know I think that she allowed – I think the way that I presented it I think she allowed me just to be with that. And maybe hear it. But it was like – I was kind of explaining this catch-22 scenario that I’m in. [00:39:09]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But it’s like I feel like I can’t have the feelings or express the feelings that I’m having in this family because when I do I get shot down really fast.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know, it’s like I can’t be depressed. I can’t be angry. I can’t be whatever.

THERAPIST: Did you say those words?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And she received them?

CLIENT: I think so. I think so.

THERAPIST: Okay that’s really huge. Why do you present these really huge things like they’re not really huge? That’s huge because you revealed yourself and you have not felt safe to reveal any parts to that. And yet you still revealed part of yourself. How you felt.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. No I really did – I did recognize in the moment that it’s like yeah, this is that cold – you’re. Yeah you’re turning into fear here of this. It’s just like really trying to hold my ground. [00:40:12]

THERAPIST: And how did it feel to say those things?

CLIENT: Well I think that after – it was frightening.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It was frightening to be able to just hold my ground and say it.

THERAPIST: What was frightening about it?

CLIENT: Yeah you know that was – and I think that I was able to have that thought almost in the moment. Of like, “Really? What’s so frightening about this?” It’s like I’m not sure that I have an answer for that yet. You know it’s like –

THERAPIST: It’s not safe.

CLIENT: It’s not safe.

THERAPIST: You might get bitten by the snake.

CLIENT: Yeah exactly. You know. But I think in saying it, it did open up a little bit more of a sense of like whatever. Calm or confidence. Or a little sense of like that was okay.

THERAPIST: That’s pretty amazing!

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That’s pretty amazing. I mean that’s a really big deal. You’ve been always the little boy who’d been told not to feel. Don’t be. Don’t feel. [00:41:18]

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: And so you’ve had a lifetime of practice. But that’s not true. I mean you still do feel. And you do still care. Right? And you still do hurt.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: And you spoke it for the first time to her. And she did not dismiss it. I mean she didn’t – in a textbook she would’ve responded by hopefully holding your hand or hugging you but she didn’t dismiss it. And I wonder if the sort of feelings of loneliness, sadness and your presentation of them – what you look like – in some ways was your distress signal. Hoping to see if someone would notice. I mean we want the people we love – (cell phone rings) I’m so sorry. [00:42:00]

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. No it’s all right. It’s all right.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:42:03) You want the people you love to respond when you hurt.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: You know we want to be reached sometimes. We don’t reach out but we want someone to notice. And there is nothing wrong with that. And she noticed.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Which means she’s not completely disconnected from you.

CLIENT: No. No. No. She’s in her own highly protected place.

THERAPIST: She is.

CLIENT: And she’s far away or whatever but that doesn’t mean that she doesn’t – you know.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like your wife loves you? And remember – let me put a caveat out there. Like is different. The perception of the relationship is different. But do you feel like your wife loves you?

CLIENT: My perception, my view is – (sighs). I think similar to the feelings that I was describing earlier. It’s like she’s in love with an image of me that doesn’t exist anymore.

THERAPIST: How does that feel to say? [00:43:10]

CLIENT: It feels – again. It feels lonely. And it’s like – hey this is me. I’m here now.

THERAPIST: What is that image of you?

CLIENT: I’m not back there.

THERAPIST: And who are you back there different?

CLIENT: Oh I don’t know. The me that was back there. The me that was in college. The me that was whatever. I’m – difficult to maybe even remember. But it’s like – you know there is like things that have happened along the way. It’s like well you know I’ve had these issues with my stomach.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I’m – I don’t eat meat anymore. And I don’t drink alcohol anymore.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: But she’s in love with the guy that still wants to sit down and have a couple of gin and tonics with her every night. [00:44:04]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And it’s like – and I know. It’s not spoken but it’s felt. And it’s like why can’t you be that guy?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: You know and it’s like – so that’s yeah. That’s hard.

THERAPIST: Very hard.

CLIENT: And it’s like dammit. You know?

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:44:23)

CLIENT: You know? (laughing) I just need somebody to see me. Can you just see me? You know? I feel like the invisible man sometimes. It’s like – yeah whatever. There’s a number of different science fiction metaphors I could probably pick on but –.

THERAPIST: You know I see it sometimes go across your face. How much it hurts to not be seen.

CLIENT: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah so I think that I carry that– I certainly carry it through the doors here. [00:44:56]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And it’s like – I think one of the things that I’m finding somewhat surprising is that people see me here.

THERAPIST: What’s different – how do you know?

CLIENT: (sighs) I don’t know exactly. But I’m – there is a certain sense of like people are starting –. I’ve been in the program long enough now.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:45:22) it’s like people call me by name. It’s like – a little bit. I mean it’s not like you’re seeing these people on a daily basis. It’s difficult to –

THERAPIST: How does it feel to be seen?

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s like I like hanging out here. It’s nice to be a part of something. It’s nice to feel like your ideas count. Who you are matters. The things that you care about matter. And it’s like that’s – yeah. [00:45:54]

THERAPIST: It’s almost like and a lot of (inaudible at 00:45:57) students feel that way. It’s almost like you have to leave what was to go with people who have no history to be seen –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: for who you are in a day. But I wonder what it would be like for you to tell your wife that. Not that I’m suggesting you should but I wonder what it would be like for you to tell her that.

CLIENT: (pause at 00:46:23 until 00:46:28) Yeah I do see that’s a possibility. I do see that it – that I think that I’m moving closer to that place.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Yeah and I think that it’s kind of that that sense of like climbing the stairs – the ladder to the high dive. [00:46:53]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: It’s like well given, given the right circumstances. I might actually jump.

THERAPIST: Well you are not (client laughing), you are not unknowable nor are you unlovable.

CLIENT: No and I think that part of that path I recognize. A huge part of that path is really me getting to know me.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And really me coming to love who I am.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And I’m like, “Yeah.”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: This is huge.

THERAPIST: Because people – you don’t necessarily need –. We all need validation but it can come from different sources.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: And I wonder – and I don’t know because I don’t have a sense of your wife other than what you’ve told me of course –

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: but I wonder if some part of her is also waiting for you. You’ve talked about being in silos and the force field.

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: And once you’ve been together for a really long time you have – a lot of times accurate, sometimes not – a representation of who you think someone is and it doesn’t leave them room to break out of that. [00:47:58]

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: It doesn’t leave room to be different.

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: There is a movie – and I can’t remember the name of it. It came out maybe a year ago. Two years. With Meryl Streep and Tommy Lee Jones. What was it called?

CLIENT: Oh I saw it. Yeah. I did not see that movie but I was like – my wife and I saw the previews and I’m like, “I can’t go there. That’s our relationship. I can’t go there.” (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah. But you know what? But I wonder if you should.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And it’s almost like you’re Meryl Streep and she’s Tommy Lee Jones.

CLIENT: Yeah and again I didn’t see the movie. So.

THERAPIST: I wonder if that’s something you should think about. First you should see it yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But I wonder if it’s something you should watch together. Not now. Right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But it’s in some ways it’s a message to anyone who is in a long-term relationship or a marital relationship because all of us are vulnerable to that. [00:48:54]

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: As you saw you went home and you saw your brothers living parts of your experience.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right? Because all of us are vulnerable to that.

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: You know you have a voice here. And you’ve been told for so long that you can’t use it or can’t speak. You’re screaming from the outside. But anytime – at least since we’ve been working together – you even you said know or you’ve spoken a little bit of your truth it has not been the disaster that you feared it would be.

CLIENT: No I don’t think it is. And I think that probably cognitively or whatever. On a philosophical level I can see that it’s like “Yeah look. You can say these kinds of things. The world as we know it is not going to end.”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But yeah. When the rubber hits the road –

THERAPIST: Of course. It’s a process. [00:49:54]

CLIENT: You’re someplace else.

THERAPIST: I wonder if I could have you think about if you could write your wife a letter and say anything you wanted to say, what would it look like? Before – I’m not suggesting you write the letter at this point. And if you did I wouldn’t suggest that you give it to her. But I wonder if you thought about writing her a letter so you could say anything you have ever wanted to say about the relationship or how much you hurt or the lack of physical or emotional – like what would it be like for you to do that?

CLIENT: (pause at 00:50:30 until 00:50:36) Um probably the best – the first thought that comes to mind is like somebody who has just been—. You know when you’ve had like the stomach flu.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And you just like, you know it would feel so much better if you could just vomit. Right? [00:50:55]

THERAPIST: (chuckles)

CLIENT: But –

THERAPIST: Wow! That is a powerful reaction.

CLIENT: But you’re just going to sit here and you’re going to – no I can’t go there. Oh man I just don’t want to vomit.

THERAPIST: Wow that’s pretty –

CLIENT: I just want to sit here. So I think that the experience would be that of like, “Okay I’ve just got to vomit.”

THERAPIST: There is something really terrifying about this for you.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think we have to look at what that is.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. It’s –

THERAPIST: I mean that’s a powerful image.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: You know? And in our work together parts of me really feels for your experience (client laughing) because you’re this kind of deeply feeling man who wants to have these connections with other people that you are really capable of having but somewhere along the line you have been consistently told that it’s you or you can’t. Or you have linked up with individuals who can’t or won’t or aren’t capable. [00:51:59]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And then when you –

CLIENT: You’re so clever. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Deflect with humor. But when you think about even being able to privately write down your thoughts; it’s terrifying.

CLIENT: Mm. Yeah. Yeah it’s not like – yeah.

THERAPIST: We’ve got to figure out where that came from.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: You know you must’ve gotten punished really badly whether directly or someone told you something. Somewhere you’ve picked up this idea that it’s not only unsafe but it’s almost traumatic to be able to share those things.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. Mm.

THERAPIST: So just a question. I am here next week if you want to come in.

CLIENT: I think –

THERAPIST: You don’t have to. But you—

CLIENT: No that’s the twelfth?

THERAPIST: That’s the twelfth.

CLIENT: I believe that I’m actually here on campus that day but I have to figure out – I think that there is one of those APAT things going on.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Okay.

CLIENT: So let me – I will find out about that.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And then what? Call you? E-mail you?

THERAPIST: E-mail me. And you can come in for our regularly scheduled time or I should have some time flexibility that day so just let me know.

CLIENT: I think that we’ve e-mailed, right?

THERAPIST: We have. If not, it’s on my card.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:53:23) Okay.

THERAPIST: You can always e-mail me. I’m pretty quick on the e-mail.

C: Okay, great. [00:53:28] [end of audio]

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