TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: …idiot. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Well, you shouldn’t.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:00:04).

THERAPIST: I’m glad to see they’ve added a student panel. I suggested to them that they do so.

CLIENT: Well, good.

THERAPIST: Because…

CLIENT: In all…

THERAPIST: ...who teach… who uses them but people who are students? So…

CLIENT: It all looked a little canned so I’m like I’ll never be able to look at one of those tapes the same way again. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: So who came in and…

CLIENT: Sheri Geller. Somebody from Toronto talking about presence. (pause) I just had the cheat sheet in front of me here. But it was really kind of like integrating mindfulness and just really kind of like a… I’ve had an experience with like mindful dialog. I forget the guy’s name who was doing that work. But you’re really… just really trying to be in the moment kind of thing when you’re… so… [00:01:03]

THERAPIST: And did you choose to kind of be on this panel because of the topic or…

CLIENT: Well, there was only one left and they were putting out the plea for volunteers. And I’m like, well, I’ll do it. What the heck. And then when I saw what it was, it’s like, well, this should be interesting. And it was. Yea, so I’m sorry.

THERAPIST: No, it’s fine.

CLIENT: We got ten minutes. Go. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: (chuckling)

CLIENT: Yea. (pause) Let me shift gears here. So the homework, I actually tried. I tried to find the video and I’m like, stupid Netflix didn’t have it. I’m like, where am I going to find this thing? So I’m like, I think I’m going to have to go to a video store or something. I’m like…

THERAPIST: Oh gosh, because people still do that.

CLIENT: …I live under a rock. I don’t have cable. (chuckling) All I’ve got is an Apple TV.

THERAPIST: (chuckling) I’m surprised Netflix didn’t have it. [00:02:00]

CLIENT: I’m like…

THERAPIST: Is it you mean where you…

CLIENT: Well, through Netflix… through the subscription.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: The online kind of thing.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I’m plugging it in and it’s like, no hope springs.

THERAPIST: Oh, you know what. So it doesn’t… it’s probably not… you probably can’t like watch it in the moment. You probably have to order it.

CLIENT: I have to… yea.

THERAPIST: So right.

CLIENT: So I have to do that and… yea.

THERAPIST: Well, you didn’t have enough to do, I know, with finals. So… (chuckling)

CLIENT: Right. So by the time… there was not enough. If I had to order it… and I didn’t check through the QVC if it was there. So I’ll get it.

THERAPIST: Well, I’d be interested to hear kind of your thoughts on it and what sort of resonates for you. You’ll like it on multiple levels, I think. Like it and not like it on multiple levels.

CLIENT: So yea, we’ll see where that goes. I know that this past week, I’ve just been really in tune with just like the anger. There’s just so much anger there. [00:03:04]

THERAPIST: Wow. Tell me. That’s pretty significant.

CLIENT: Well, I’m like… yea, I’m like... (pause) Maybe a recognition of how I don’t know whatever kind of (pause) ways I’ve tried to like either I don’t know maybe ignore or maybe pretend it’s not there. I’m not sure exactly. It’s like, really? I didn’t think that there was all that anger there. So it’s like, hmm. So it’s like, well, this is… so I haven’t seen the movie yet so… and I’m not a big Hobbit fan and all that kind of thing. But there’s just this sense like, well, the dragon has been laying there dormant for a long time. [00:04:05] It’s not like the dragon went away. It’s just…

THERAPIST: Tell me why anger is so tough for you.

CLIENT: (pause) Well, I wouldn’t say it’s just anger. I mean… but I mean, there’s anger and there’s that sense of loneliness, this sense of disappointment. All those kind of sensations that kind of in my current terminology are all those emotions that really just kind of perpetuate this sense of unsatisfactoriness about life. The Buddhists call it suffering or dukkha. That sense of life is just miserable. [00:05:03]

And it’s like so in recognizing, it’s like, well, yea. There’s a sense that I can look at this. I can look at this story right now and I’m like I can kind of cognitively pick this apart. And I can go… so I’m able to view it at that level. And I can recognize that it’s like this is this whole grand narrative that I’ve created.

THERAPIST: What’s the narrative, Seamus?

CLIENT: About how life should be. How relationships should be. There’s that sense of, I’m not getting the world the way I want it. There’s that, here’s my narrative. Here’s the script. It’s easy to see in relationships and maybe other people’s relationships, but it’s like we both walk onto the stage together and we exchange scripts. And as long as we’re reading off script, life is good.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But then we start improvising. [00:06:07]

THERAPIST: So when did you start improvising?

CLIENT: It’s like, hey, wait a minute. Where’s this part about like, OK. It’s like, all right, all right. The kids start to come. We recognize life is going to be a little tougher and it’s like… and then like whatever. Then you get the…

THERAPIST: What’s…

CLIENT: …whole chapter about sexual abuse. And it’s like, wait a minute. This wasn’t in my script.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So now I’m going… so then it’s like the frustration, the anger, blah, blah, blah.

THERAPIST: Can you tell me about the anger?

CLIENT: It is (pause) just trying to like be with it and observe what that emotion is feeling like. It’s… it really is like this being with… and I’ve had this experience being around children who are just completely irrational. [00:07:08] And it’s just this raw irrationality about them. And it’s like there is nothing that you’re going to be able to do or say that’s going to change the situation. It’s just like roar.

THERAPIST: Can you talk about your anger from the point in which you feel it through yourself as the vessel?

CLIENT: (pause) How do I feel it? (pause) I’m not exactly sure where you’re going with that. But just in terms of like a feeling, how do I wear that anger? How do I feel that anger? (pause) [00:08:00] I’m not… there’s sort of this just kind of this depression kind of a feeling about it. And it’s like I recognize that the two are linked in that probably I switch from anger to depression. It’s like I can’t stay with the anger.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So I slip into this depression, this depressed place. And it’s like, wow.

THERAPIST: It’s… there’s a lot happening for you right now it seems. Because even as you’re describing your anger which I consider a breakthrough because we kind of danced around it for a while and that was a hard thing to kind of acknowledge. What I see on your face is hurt. It hurt. Anger from being hurt. Somebody runs over my toes with a bike that I’m angry about it. But the deep hurt that you feel that’s where the anger comes from.

CLIENT: Yea. And I think that there’s sort of that sense of like… I don’t know. Betrayal might be a little bit of a strong word but…

THERAPIST: No. Tell me about it if it’s real. [00:09:09]

CLIENT: Well, it’s like wait a minute. And it’s kind of like the being on stage together. It’s like, hey, this is kind of a vulnerable place. We’re on stage together. And it’s like, wait a minute. You’ve taken this play in a completely different direction. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: And you didn’t ask me.

CLIENT: Yea. And I’m standing up here trying to improvise looking like an idiot or whatever.

THERAPIST: But I think it’s not whatever. And in the… even in the emotional processing of your own feelings, you sort of compared to a toddler who’s irrational, right? Or being on the play and having the script change on you and then you’re the one looking like a fool, right? That somehow your emotions are childish or foolish. And that’s one of the reasons why I think that you have never allowed yourself to feel angry. You bury them and that’s when things become depression, right? [00:10:02] But your hurt of years and your sense of betrayal and not having a choice. Or going along or having things change and not having the kind of saying something is very real. And if you continue to kind of blow it off and say it’s irrational or you come with analogies to describe it. I mean, sometimes you just feel.

CLIENT: Yea, and it… and there was…

THERAPIST: Can you sit with that for a second?

CLIENT: Oh, I was sitting with it all week, really.

THERAPIST: What triggered it and how do… what was it like to sit with it?

CLIENT: Well, I think there’s a lot of triggers. I recognize that sense of a feeling like my life has come to this place of like… it’s kind of like here is the memo. This is what you’re doing today kind of thing. And I recognize it. It’s like, well, I probably got myself into that place because I didn’t speak up about that. [00:11:06] It’s like, OK. So I’m just going to…

THERAPIST: So that happened this weekend?

CLIENT: Oh, yea. I ended up… and not that I wouldn’t necessarily have decided to do this myself, but it’s a different sense of like this is what we’re doing as opposed to would you like to do this? Or maybe we could discuss this? But it’s like, I went to see a concert that my daughter was doing down in three hours south. And then we came up. No, first we… first I ended up going over to a concert that my nephew was doing over near my hometown or in my hometown. So it was a whole weekend of just being on the road going to…

THERAPIST: And you didn’t want to do those things?

CLIENT: Again, I’m not sure that I wouldn’t have wanted to go do those. It was the resentment of the expectation. This is what we’re going to go do. And it was like, hmm. So I was able to recognize…

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:12:02]

CLIENT: …that that was what was going on. I was unable to know what to do with that.

THERAPIST: So you kind of sat with it?

CLIENT: Yea. And I just like, OK, yea. And I think that where I am… where I was able to be was like, OK, I’m feeling the anger. The only thing that I know what to do with this anger is to go to depression. And I started to feel myself slipping in that direction. And then it was like, wow, I have all of this anger and resentment and whatnot built up over years. And I’m like, OK, I don’t know what to do with this.

THERAPIST: What would you like to do with it?

CLIENT: (pause) I’m not 100% sure. I sort of had that image of Wile E. Coyote that I may have shared with you.

THERAPIST: You have.

CLIENT: Yea. And I’m like I’m just wanting to be really careful that I don’t pull the trigger and just end up blowing everything up. [00:13:02]

THERAPIST: And what would that look like because this is a… Wile E. Coyote has come up as a prominent image multiple times. And it’s powerful, him, kind of exploding the dynamite.

CLIENT: Well, it’s because he’s sitting on the stack of dynamite.

THERAPIST: Right. And what do you fear will happen if you get angry and vent that or speak that?

CLIENT: I don’t know. Is it that… in a lot of ways, I feel…

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: …the worst case scenario is that life as you know it will be over.

THERAPIST: And life as you know it will be over meaning your marriage would change. And that would be what?

CLIENT: Well, I think I’m unable to see like this moving in a positive direction.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So I can only image, at this point, the negative. And I’m not sure that it’s like… I’m not sure how to go there. [00:14:02] I’m not sure I want to go there. And it’s like, well, is it really that bad? And then you start going down that road of like…

THERAPIST: But then you’re talking yourself out of what’s true for you.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: And you have a history of doing that over years.

CLIENT: Yea, I’m pretty skilled at that. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: I just wonder if you’re not as angry at yourself as you are at your wife for not speaking earlier.

CLIENT: Oh yea. I know the anger is that I can see that the anger is self-directed. It’s easy to be able to project that on somebody else and it’s like this is your fault.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But yea, I know it’s… I know where the fault lies and it’s like…

THERAPIST: Was it fault?

CLIENT: …I almost had that sense of… I don’t know. There’s just this sense of… I haven’t had the dream in a long time. [00:15:01] But I used to have these dreams but I think it was more back when I was actually teaching I would be in the situation where I would be like confronting somebody. Usually students, the problem students…

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: …where you were in this highly confrontational situation. So it’s a situation that you’ve been dealing with and you know what you want to say but your jaw, it’s like you’re paralyzed. That’s the feeling that I’m having in the dream. So I’m paralyzed. I can’t get my mouth to move and it’s like it’s just that frustration…

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: …in the dream. Now I haven’t had that dream in a long time. But I’m like that’s the sensation that I feel.

THERAPIST: Paralyzed.

CLIENT: Yea, it’s like damn it. You know what you need to be doing. You know that like saying what you feel here would be really the best thing.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Why can’t you do that? And it’s like it’s because my jaw is locked. I can’t get my damn jaw to move. [00:16:09] That feeling. So…

THERAPIST: Where do you think that comes from, Seamus (sp?)?

CLIENT: Oh God, I’m sure that that comes from like growing up as a kid. I’m sure that even though, at this point, I can’t like say, well, here’s the example. But I’m just like you go back home and I’m almost able to kind of relive or re-see some of my childhood in that my little sister lives across the backyard from my mom and dad.

THERAPIST: Currently?

CLIENT: Yea. And she’s got ages like eight or nine through high school. So it’s kind of like I can kind of like come back and… now I know mom and dad have changed over the years but its’ like I’m seeing how they interact with the grandkids. And it’s like, oh.

THERAPIST: And what are you seeing? [00:17:00]

CLIENT: (pause) All of those messages. It’s like if you’re feeling anger about… or if you’re feeling anything. If you’re frustrated about it, it’s like the old tapes that click in. It’s like, well, go get busy doing something else. Go find…

THERAPIST: Don’t feel.

CLIENT: Don’t feel.

THERAPIST: And don’t show us. Don’t tell us.

CLIENT: And don’t tell me about it because I don’t know what to do with it. And I’m just going to tell you to go do something. Well, let’s go get busy doing something else.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And that’s the mode. It’s like, divert, divert, divert.

THERAPIST: So even before getting married, you’ve been doing this a long time which is…

CLIENT: Oh yea. I came to the marriage with no skills in communication. So it’s like, OK. And I’m pretty sure that I may have found somebody with an equal talent. Or maybe she was a little bit more skilled at being able to express what she was wanting. [00:18:03] And therefore, it’s like, well, since I can’t express myself, I guess we’ll just do what you want to do because I can’t talk to you know. (chuckling) Whatever.

THERAPIST: You almost give me the sense of being… it’s a sense of feeling terror with being angry. And you’re hearing construction, by the way.

CLIENT: Oh yea. I know. We heard it down in the studio. Is it terror? Yea, I think now I’m getting to that… it feels like I’ve painted myself into a corner. That it’s like, OK. So where do you go from here? It’s like…

THERAPIST: Well, where would you like to go?

CLIENT: (pause) I think that the more I’m sitting with that this week, it’s like I just want to be able to be in that place…

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: …of being able to express what I’m feeling. [00:19:02] And then it’s kind of like the music in the background, that dramatic music, the swell. And it’s like you know something is… and it’s like you recognize, oh. Well, the other actor isn’t on the stage.

THERAPIST: And you really want her on the stage with you.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: So you can renegotiate the script.

CLIENT: And I know that we have come over the years of playing this dance. And it’s like I think I have been somebody that had… I’ve been trying…

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: …for a long time. And I know that one of our conversations throughout our entire marriage is just like, look. She’s, “Well, how do you feel? What do you want to do? Tell me what…” And I’m like, “No. I need some time.” And it’s like… and there’s always this sense of like there’s not enough time for me to like get it out. I just… I can’t tell you. [00:20:02] It’s like…

THERAPIST: So she’s stopped asking and you stopped trying to tell.

CLIENT: Yea. Or that life circumstances and whatnot and now it’s like, OK, well, our time together is five minutes over coffee this morning. So you got anything important to tell me, it’s like right now. And then… and the way the day plays out, it’s like, well, maybe I’ll see you tomorrow. And you get the same five minutes. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: How do you we know, though, that she is not also feeling like she can’t… maybe she wants to connect and can’t.

CLIENT: Oh, I think that we’re probably in the same canyon, just on other side… opposite sides of the canyon.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I think we’re probably both in that same stuck place of not being about to talk. She’s got this phobia that seems to have developed over the years about talking on the phone. [00:21:03]

THERAPIST: Tell me about that.

CLIENT: Thankfully, we have phones where we can text each other because I do get messages from her and that’s good.

THERAPIST: Tell… can you tell me a little bit about the phobia so I got a…

CLIENT: She just doesn’t like talking to people on the phone. And it’s like she’ll do it when she has to but…

THERAPIST: Your kids as well?

CLIENT: Yea. I think that she would prefer… well, maybe she’s a little more comfortable talking to the kids on the phone. But yea, she’s not going to intentionally pick up the phone and call me. She’ll text me or she’ll avoid talking to me.

THERAPIST: Is it just you or is it other people as well?

CLIENT: Oh, I think there may be other people, too.

THERAPIST: So it is a phone issue.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: Not specific?

CLIENT: Yea, I think it’s a little bit more of a phone issue. Yea, I don’t feel special about the phone issue but…

THERAPIST: Do you ever touch? [00:22:01]

CLIENT: (pause) No. Rarely.

THERAPIST: Not ever?

CLIENT: Well, no. I won’t say not ever but it… yea. No. It’s (pause) awkward. Like when you’re in social settings where there’s… I don’t know. Maybe there’s a sense of like, well, this would be good for the actors on the stage right now to be holding hands kind of feeling. It’s like… but it doesn’t feel… on my end, it doesn’t feel like it’s genuine. Is there a genuineness on her part? Maybe.

But I’m like, yea. After I feel like wait a minute. Before we can… (chuckling) It’s like, I need to… we need to talk here. It’s like, I can’t… it’s like, no. We’ve got to… yea, it’s like we’ve got to renegotiate this. [00:23:05] Or we’ve got to start from the… start over or something. It’s like, whoa. Put on the brakes. Cut. (chuckling) Rewind. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: So if we’re watching the play of your marriage and we’re in a… intermission is done and we’re in… going into Act 4 of a four-act play, what do you want Act 4 to look like?

CLIENT: (pause) Yea. (pause) Well, I think I would like that… to have that sense or that opportunity to… for the two main characters to talk it out.

THERAPIST: So tell me. Take me through. [00:24:01] And the main character is you. It’s your play.

CLIENT: Yea, I think just being able to say just like we need to have time to talk and we need to be able to… we need to like I don’t know not necessarily disregard all of the past. But it’s like just recognizing, hey, this is not acceptable. I can’t continue to go in this direction. And it’s like I am the kind of person in my professional life… it’s like as a teacher, it’s like it got to the place where I’m like I can’t stand doing this anymore.

THERAPIST: How does she respond to what you’re saying in the play? [00:25:00]

CLIENT: (pause) Yea, I would see her as being open to doing that.

THERAPIST: Tell me what her dialog is.

CLIENT: (pause) If I can write the play the way that I want it to me, then I would say…

THERAPIST: You’re writing it.

CLIENT: …then she’s open to it.

THERAPIST: And she says what to you after you say, “We really need to talk. I can’t keep doing it the way we’ve done it.”

CLIENT: That I agree with you. And that… yea, I want to do this as… I want to do that, too.

THERAPIST: And you say?

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: And now what?

CLIENT: (pause) We just need… we just figure out how to do that. And maybe it’s like taking a trip or getting away from all of the other distractions or whatever. [00:26:08] But it’s just like… yea.

THERAPIST: Can you flesh it out a little bit and tell me more about the dialog so she says yes and you say yes and now what?

CLIENT: (pause) I’m not sure. I’m not sure what that looks like.

THERAPIST: What do you make of that? This is your play so it can look like however you want it to.

CLIENT: What do I make of that? (pause) [00:27:00] I don’t know. I think there’s part of me that… the honest part of me that’s like, well, do I really want that? Is that really what I want? Is that the way I want this? Is that the way? Maybe I’m not able to come up with any dialog because I’m like I’m not sure that I’m wanting it to go in that direction.

THERAPIST: What’s it like to say that?

CLIENT: Well, I think that there’s the, it feels good to be honest about it. (pause) Yea, so not recognizing that I’m going down the road of trying to whatever, think my way out of it or justify it. It’s like…

THERAPIST: That’s it. It’s of note, right? You can write the fourth act any way you want to. You can have her say anything you want her to say. [00:28:04] And the initial part is pretty clear. Let’s talk. But what you would say and how you would say it, you got stuck because you’re not sure not how to say it but if you want to say anything more than that which I think is not only powerful. It sort of speaks about just how deeply hurt and angry you are.

CLIENT: Oh yea.

THERAPIST: And the questioning of, do I even want that to exist? If I could have it, would I want it?

CLIENT: Yea. I mean, there’s… because I have those discussions with myself.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s like, well, here you are again, another night alone. And it’s like, well dude, you want the alternative? I mean, it’s like be careful what you’re wishing for here. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: What is the alternative? What is the alternative that you are imagining? [00:29:01]

CLIENT: That I’m engaged in some other activity. Like tonight I’m going to support… listen to the high school choir. I no longer have kids in choir but my wife is the accompanist for the choir. So she has asked if I would come to the choir tonight. And I’m like, yes, I will be there. Then there’s going to be a gathering afterwards at the choir director’s house aka her best friend who they spend all of their time together. And I’m like, oh good. I get to be a third wheel.

THERAPIST: You’re angry.

CLIENT: Yea, I’m angry. I don’t want to go.

THERAPIST: Why are you going?

CLIENT: Because I’m a Boy Scout. I’m an Eagle Scout. I’m the good boy. I always do these things and that’s… yea, so… or whatever. (chuckling) I’m like I don’t even know. [00:30:06] It’s just like… yea.

THERAPIST: You can stop the treadmill at any time or change it. Change the speed. You can go to one and not the other. You can say, “I don’t want to go.” You can go to both…

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: …and say, “Fine, but something about this scheduling has to change.” I mean the treadmill that you’re on, you can choose to stay on it and that is a valid choice for sure. You can say, “You know what. The alternative, whatever that is. Whatever you… I think you have a picture in your head of what the alternative is. If it’s divorce and I don’t want that. Or if it’s being lonely although I would argue you’re already lonely, right?

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: But you can change it. You’ve already changed the pattern in some significant ways in a short period of time. And sometimes just recognizing you have a choice, right? Whether you are happy with the way you’re responding or not, recognizing that you’re changing internally and the external changes will take a while to show up. [00:31:06] You can at least be proud of that. But you don’t have to be a Boy Scout because you don’t like it. In some ways, you think it gives you this extra benefit but it’s actually really not as beneficial I think as…

CLIENT: It’s just a pattern at this point. It’s just habitual energy. I think early on it gave me identity and I drew some self-kudos for being the guy that wore the white hat or something.

THERAPIST: The good guy.

CLIENT: Yea, whatever. I’m like, whatever. Yea, look what that got you.

THERAPIST: Well, no matter if you go or not, you’re still a good guy. You’re just a guy who decided he didn’t want to go to the rehearsal or the concert. (pause) And it almost sounds…

CLIENT: Yea. And I need to hang onto that.

THERAPIST: It almost sounds like going tonight afterwards is a painful and angering experience for you because you don’t know what’s going on with your wife and her best friend. [00:32:07] But you know you feel that relationship robbed you of emotional intimacy. Why are you putting yourself through that?

CLIENT: Yea, I don’t know. I’m having this vision of this cartoon character who has this large hammer and just keeps on hitting himself in the head. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Ouch. (chuckling)

CLIENT: I’m like I don’t know. Why do I do that?

THERAPIST: Put the hammer down.

CLIENT: Yea. Put the hammer down. Stop it.

THERAPIST: Well, it’s not that easy and I’m not trying to make that easy. But you can… if part of you is saying, “I would spend the night at home feeling bad for not going.” OK, then why don’t you go to the concert and not go afterwards? And say, “Hon, I’m going to go to support you tonight. I want to see it but I’m not going afterwards.”

CLIENT: Yea. And I’ve done that a number of different times. I’ve been able to do that lately.

THERAPIST: Oh, good for you. [00:33:00]

CLIENT: I’ve been able to go and I’m like yea, you know what? I’ve had enough concert. I’ve had enough of this. I’m going to head home. So yea, and while I think that that may… I’m not sure that it puts me necessarily in a place of feeling empowered yet.

THERAPIST: I guess, for you, I would just wish that you wouldn’t put yourself in places of pain.

CLIENT: I’m going to sit with that. And I’m going to consider that tonight because I feel like that I did it on Tuesday. They had a… there was another concert. It wasn’t even her concert and I’m like, why did you do this? This was… I went to the orchestra concert.

THERAPIST: Are you expecting something back when you do these things?

CLIENT: I think that that could be habitually… it’s like I think that ship sailed a long time ago. But there is like…

THERAPIST: But I wonder if you still hope. [00:34:01]

CLIENT: Yea. It’s like, well, if I go and maybe she’ll spend time with me. There’s that… yea.

THERAPIST: OK. And to be clear, there’s nothing wrong with wanting something back. If I go to the store and pick up beer for my husband, I want something back. Good wife. Yay me.

CLIENT: Yea, something.

THERAPIST: But the something now that there’s been all these years of silence isn’t clear.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And you are allowed to want something back but you’re going to have to learn to ask for it and to risk not getting it. But I would say it’s less of a risk than you feel is because you’re already not getting it, right?

CLIENT: (chuckling) Yea. THERAPIST: But my guess isn’t we don’t know this for a fact. You’re not asking and she’s not giving because you miss each other’s signals all the time. So is there a chance? So I guess in the time that we don’t see each other and yay for you for going to India. Have a wonderful time. [00:35:00]

But I guess I’ll ask you to think about a couple of things. I want you to think about writing the fourth act. Come up with multiple scenarios. You can come up with I don’t want to put words in your mouth here a divorce scenario. And you can come up with a… and this is all fantasy. You can come up with a happily ever after scenario. And you can come up with a realistic scenario. And you can come up with a fantasy, right? And you can rehearse the dialog. It’s your script, right?

And sort of just instead of putting restrictions on how you think and feel and how you think it might go allow yourself to fantasize about how you think you want it to go. And then maybe the next day you completely change it. But I think it will give us some data about… because I think you think if we can just talk now, I’m going to end it because I don’t… who knows what comes next. But in your fantasy if you are the author of the play and you are then it can end or it can look like however you want it to look. [00:36:04]

And I just wonder and we don’t know. Maybe she’s not receptive at all or maybe she’s locked in the same prison you are and just perceives the whole thing differently, maybe.

CLIENT: Of course, yea.

THERAPIST: And I don’t know. I don’t want to create that. Like you are two people who want to connect and don’t know how. We don’t know that. I don’t know that, right? But I’m…

CLIENT: Yea. No, I understand, yea.

THERAPIST: …saying, if you can allow your mind to go and just imagine what you would want it to be and allow yourself the freedom to imagine what you would want it to be. Everything that you sort of engage in meditation, even the one you attended about presence and mindfulness has to do with being in the moment. This is the theme being in the moment, living with the experience. And this is why I imagine that you’re attracted to these things is the thing that you very much struggle against doing. [00:37:02] It’s like you and the snake again, right? And so being your fantasy, I guess I would encourage you to allow it to be whatever you want it to be or you think you want it to be.

CLIENT: OK. (pause) Yea, I can do that.

THERAPIST: Yea. And then let me know between that… I hope you do that first before you see the movie.

CLIENT: OK. Well, there’s a chance… yea, I can make that happen. I’ll just wait to…

THERAPIST: And then maybe you see how the film changes, feeds, shapes the fantasy. You are allowed a fantasy life whatever it is, realistic or not. I mean, that’s the point of fantasy. You get to write your own script.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: When do you leave for India?

CLIENT: Twenty-eight.

THERAPIST: Have a great time. [00:38:00]

CLIENT: Yea. I’m like… now that finals and everything are done, I’m like, OK, all the stuff that I need to get prepared. And I’m like I hope I got enough time to do this. So…

THERAPIST: I really want to hear about it when you get back. And hope that when you’re there, you just let yourself be.

CLIENT: You know what? I’m sure that I will. And I know that there’s a lot of… there’s expectation that… it’s like, well, take lots of pictures. And I’m like, yea. You know what? I’ll take some but…

THERAPIST: I’ll just be.

CLIENT: …I’m just going to be here.

THERAPIST: Yea, good for you.

CLIENT: I don’t… it’s like this is… I really feel pretty selfish but this is just my time. Damn it, I’m going to take it. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: It’s not selfish. It’s not selfish. This time works for you next semester? Are we good?

CLIENT: We’re going to… yea. I think it… let’s see. We’re a Thursday.

THERAPIST: Thursday at 1:00.

CLIENT: Do we have Tuesday available or not?

THERAPIST: We might.

CLIENT: Because I’m here Monday and Tuesday of next semester. [00:39:06]

THERAPIST: Stop. Yea, so let me see. We might.

END TRANSCRIPT