TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

INTERVIEWER: When did you get back?

RESPONDENT: Late Saturday night.

INTERVIEWER: Okay. Okay.

RESPONDENT: So it’s like 78º at LAX.

INTERVIEWER: Welcome home.

RESPONDENT: And almost getting on the plane it’s like, no, there’s a delay in Detroit.

INTERVIEWER: It’s been pretty bad here while you’ve been gone.

RESPONDENT: I know, I know. And I’ve been avoiding spending too much time calling and writing people and letting them know that it’s 90º.

INTERVIEWER: That’s very nice of you. So while we were suffering. So tell me about your trip, how was India?

RESPONDENT: Wow. Yeah, how do you… It was just a really educational experience.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: Everything you’d want a multi-cultural trip like that to be.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: Plopping yourself into a culture where you’re clearly the minority, and clearly don’t know how to speak the language. Yeah. And trying to figure it out. So it was really fun. Yeah. We had some interesting twists and turns from the get go.

INTERVIEWER: Do tell.

RESPONDENT: Like three days into the trip Dr. Smith… I don’t know, did you hear this?

INTERVIEWER: I heard he got sick.

RESPONDENT: Well, he came with like bronchitis, and it just kept getting worse and worse. And eventually he’s like, you know, in more serious shape than just like bronchitis. So they end up taking him to the hospital. And I didn’t know his personal background.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: But he’s like inches away from like renal failure.

INTERVIEWER: Oh God. I didn’t know that.

RESPONDENT: So he ends up… I mean, they brought him back today. He spent the last, you know, two-plus weeks of his trip sitting in a northern Indian hospital…

INTERVIEWER: Right. [2:00]

RESPONDENT: … on dialysis.

INTERVIEWER: Oh God. That’s awful. In a place… You know, you can imagine how isolating that would be. You don’t speak the language, you’re not home, you’re having serious medical issues.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: That’s bad.

RESPONDENT: So, I mean, that dynamic happened. Dr. Peterson got sick for a day or two. Just the kind of other little ups and downs you sort of expect. And then there’s the protest going on over in India.

INTERVIEWER: Okay. Now, I hadn’t heard about this.

RESPONDENT: Pro-democracy… I don’t know if it’s pro-democracy… Anyway, there’s like the… when we get over there, there’s clearly this hubbub that this large group in Mumbai is going to shut down the city.

INTERVIEWER: Okay. “Welcome to our city!”

RESPONDENT: And the first part of the trip, the first week, we’re in the northern part, and the second and third week we were doing these workshops in Mumbai. And Carlson’s hotel is in one location where the workshops are, and the rest of us kind of put up in this hotel are in another location.

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: And it becomes apparent that… you know, the first week we’re doing just fine, but it was… the start of the second week was the date that they were going to shut down the city. And one of the spots, there’s like seven locations around the city that they were going to block traffic and shut down the city, and it would have been between our two hotels.

INTERVIEWER: Was if far… those two hotels, were they far apart?

RESPONDENT: No. Geographically, no.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: Depending on the traffic, yes.

INTERVIEWER: Okay, okay.

RESPONDENT: You know, traffic over there is insane. But they ended up moving us out into the country to this rural resort for the last week, and I’m like, “Okay, well that worked out.” [laughter] So being in Mumbai for a week was enough for me.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: It was just like… it was too much.

INTERVIEWER: Okay. Too much stimulation…

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: Too much stimulation, too much… too many people. I mean, it’s 13 million people.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: And, you know, unless you’re with a Indian person…

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: … you know, being escorted around. I just didn’t feel comfortable.

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm, mm hm.

RESPONDENT: I remember taking a walk away from the hotel just kind of exploring a little bit, and I got to this huge intersection, and there was no Indian person there for me to watch and follow. You know, it’s like, okay, when do I walk?

INTERVIEWER: Uh huh.

RESPONDENT: And it was like this huge bank of cars just sitting over here, and I’m like, nope. I just turned around and walked back. [5:00]

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: I’m like, I am not walking out in the middle of this. We actually had one of the doc students just got clipped in the back of her leg by one of those little motorcycles that are running over there, and it was just like, okay, we got to be careful here.

INTERVIEWER: A very interesting multi-cultural experience where you can learn what it’s like to be isolated.

RESPONDENT: Oh yeah.

INTERVIEWER: And don’t know any of the rules. And I always find it very helpful… I think I told you, my husband is European.

RESPONDENT: If you did I may have forgotten that, but yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Okay. And he’s only been in the United States for maybe three and a half years.

RESPONDENT: Okay.

INTERVIEWER: And even though our language is very common, he frequently says—and I’ve heard this from clients from other places—how hard he has to think over here, because everything he knows to be true, all the rules are different.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Even though at least, you know, there’s some semblance of speaking the same language. And he says, “When I go home, I don’t have to think very hard.”

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: And here… And so you can kind of see where… I felt like that in Italy. Like I was isolated, I didn’t speak the language. So I think that your experience over there…

RESPONDENT: Oh yeah.

INTERVIEWER: … is pretty applicable to everything you’re going to do as a counselor, because you realize what it’s like to be the only lonely out there and you’re the one not knowing the rules.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. And it was good to have those experiences, it was good to be feeling those kind of things.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: It’s like, “Oh.” You know, just being in that place of being able to watch that while it’s up. And it’s like, one day at some point it’s like, okay… yeah, I don’t think this is necessarily home sickness, but I’m ready to go home.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. [laughter]

RESPONDENT: Whatever that feeling is.

INTERVIEWER: More things that are familiar and make sense, yeah.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, whatever you want to call that. And then other little expectations you had, bringing… It’s like, “Oh, Indian food, I love Indian food.” And then it’s like, “Oh, I’m a vegetarian, this’ll be great.”

INTERVIEWER: You like the American version of the Indian food.

RESPONDENT: Meanwhile, we get over there, it’s like those people put meat in everything. [7:00]

INTERVIEWER: Do they really?

RESPONDENT: Yeah. So the irony is that in the States, when you go to like a steak place or something and you’re like the oddball vegetarian, they don’t know what to do with you.

INTERVIEWER: Right.

RESPONDENT: They crack open the bag of frozen broccoli, carrots and cauliflower and they dump it in and throw some little sauce on it. And I’m like… I got that meal two or three different times in India. I’m like, “Are you kidding me?” [laughs]

INTERVIEWER: Wow. Wow. I wouldn’t expect that. That’s funny.

RESPONDENT: So… But yeah, yeah. I mean, just it was a great… It was great the first week. It was like, we were on this bus tour—not on buses, van tour—everything was pre-laid out, you know, what we’re doing, the schedule, where we were eating, where the hotels were. It’s like, I didn’t have to think for an entire week. It was like being in grade school again.

INTERVIEWER: Okay. [laughs]

RESPONDENT: Just hop on the van, you know, goof around with the people in the back of the van. And in the process made friends with some of our Indian hosts. And I came back with three or four people’s e-mails that I’m sure I’ll probably keep some sort of relationship going with, and that was really fun. And really trying to dig in and get a sense of what it means to be Indian.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: You know, what’s it like to be an everyday Indian. And, I don’t know, I got what I got out of it, my interpretation of that. So no, it was just really… yeah. It was really great to just be in that place of like, yeah, I don’t have to think. Going to Mumbai kind of changed everything.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. That sounds like when of the kind of real multi-cultural experience began.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah. And then it was like, okay, now you’re on your own and you got to try to figure this thing out. And one of the first things we did, a group of five of us I think, we wanted to do a little bit of sightseeing and try to get down to the palace. So we thought, hey, we’ll take a taxi. So we have the bellman from the hotel get us a taxi. Well, he didn’t get us a taxi, he got us a couple of tuk tuks.

INTERVIEWER: What’s a tuk tuk?

RESPONDENT: It’s a three-wheeled open scooter kind of a thing.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: It’s like a supped up golf cart.

INTERVIEWER: And you have to drive it?

RESPONDENT: No, no, no, there’s a driver.

INTERVIEWER: Okay. All right.

RESPONDENT: A couple of drivers. So he puts us in these tuk tuks, and it’s like a Disneyland ride or something. Only there’s reality involved here.

INTERVIEWER: Sure. [10:00]

RESPONDENT: It was like, “What the hell are we doing?” So we get away from the hotel, I don’t know how far, 10 or 12 blocks, who knows, kind of turning here and there, and the tuk tuk, they pull over to the side. And the driver hops out and he goes, “So we’re going to stop now at a couple of different places.” So it’s like, “Oh, here’s the scam.”

INTERVIEWER: But we don’t want that!

RESPONDENT: Yeah. They’re going to take us to a jewelry outlet store, and they’re going to take us to a tailor. And then, you know, “But you don’t have to stay. Like five minutes, just stay five minutes. See we get a…” and he pulls out this card “…we get a stamp if we take visitors there for free gas.” So we do that. And then that makes us a little bit lighter. Then we’re going to take a water taxi across the river to get to the palace.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: Well, they take us to this place, and there’s no water taxi there. It’s a tour boat. I mean, you’re going to get an hour tour now on the river.

INTERVIEWER: [laughing] Whether you want it or not.

RESPONDENT: I mean, it’s kind of like… you know, because you don’t know what you’re doing.

INTERVIEWER: Right.

RESPONDENT: You don’t know what you’re doing. It’s like you would have just said, “No, we’re not going here, we’re going to go to the water taxi.”

INTERVIEWER: But you can’t advocate for yourself if you don’t speak the language, and it’s not your rules.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah. And so it’s like, okay. So we paid way too much for a tour down the river. And then the boat goes past the dock for the palace and then turns up this tributary, and we’re heading down this area where it’s like, “Where are we going and why are we here?” And finally I’m just like… I just keep looking at the driver, the female driver, and it’s like, “Turn it around back to the palace.” I mean, I kept saying “palace.” And finally she turned the boat around and went back. So we get there and we get to the dock and we finally get over to the palace just in time for the palace to close. [laughs] [12:00]

INTERVIEWER: You didn’t get to see it?

RESPONDENT: No.

INTERVIEWER: Oh no.

RESPONDENT: Not that day.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: But in the meantime of course we had the prime lesson in getting around, and at least had this funny story to tell about being shook down all the way through Mumbai.

INTERVIEWER: Well, if it makes you feel better, I got off the plane in Italy and this English-speaking cab driver walked up to me, and he was in a long line of cabs so I thought it was legit, and took me for twice what it would be. And mid-way through I thought, I’m definitely being screwed here. I’m from Detroit, I know this is not the way it’s supposed to work, but what can I do, you’re in it now. So I think it’s part of the tourism experience.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. And I’m sure that that kind of thing happens every day of the week and…

INTERVIEWER: Every day in every country.

RESPONDENT: … twice on Sunday.

INTERVIEWER: Sure.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Sure.

RESPONDENT: You know. And then the whole haggling experience at the markets, all those kind of things. So it was…

INTERVIEWER: It sounds like a full trip.

RESPONDENT: It was. I think.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: Lots of experiences. I’m really glad that we ended out at the resort.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Did you get to connect with some of your classmates at all?

RESPONDENT: Yeah. The other interesting development for this trip, and it’s kind of like I’m waiting to see if like, well, that was a really good idea in India, let’s see if it develops back here in the States or if it just stays over there, I’m not really sure.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: But since Dr. Smith was out of the picture after like three days Dr. Peterson and I are the only two males on this trip. And he and I were able to speak the Buddhist speak.

INTERVIEWER: Oh, that’s right. That’s right. Because he has a…

RESPONDENT: So we connected really on this trip. And I had volunteered to give a presentation at one of his workshops. And I’m thinking, well, I know this is kind of a gutsy thing, because it’s like I’m a master’s student, and his doc students are there. But he just opened it up to anybody, it’s like if you want to volunteer to make a presentation. And I said, “Sign me up.” And I said, “How about I talk about the MBSR program?”

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: He said, “Great.” So I did it.

INTERVIEWER: That’s great.

RESPONDENT: So about half-way through the trip he’s starting to talk to me about like, “We need to figure out how to get you into the doc program.”

INTERVIEWER: I was just… you know, it’s so funny that you say this. I was just thinking that that would be a good next move for you. Silas’s a good guy…

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: … and if he… he usually doesn’t say things, at least in my experience, that he doesn’t mean. So how did you feel?

RESPONDENT: Well, it kind of took me by surprise.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: I mean, it kind of was like, I don’t know what to do with that.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: So I talked to other doc students about it, and talked to a couple of the other profs that were there. [15:00]

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: And I was like kinda getting a feel for how legit is this, what is this offer? And it’s like…

INTERVIEWER: Well, let’s stop for a second and go back. So your first reaction was, it sounds like, I don’t know, I’m just a master’s student. And then your second reaction was you weren’t sure how legit it was?

RESPONDENT: Yeah, that’s… I didn’t know Peterson well enough at that point to be able to know. It’s like, well, is he just kind of patting me…

INTERVIEWER: What, blowing smoke?

RESPONDENT: … patting me on the head and making me feel… giving me some confidence, encouragement or whatever, using Adlerian speak, but…

INTERVIEWER: Why do you think he would do that?

RESPONDENT: Maybe I put myself in that position. It’s like, okay, if I had a person doing a presentation, (a) that I didn’t know that well, and was a master’s student or whatever, it’s like, you know, that’s how I would want to be. Not insincere, but I would want to be encouraging.

INTERVIEWER: Well, but you can… he can be encouraging without saying I think you should go on for a doctor program.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, I suppose.

INTERVIEWER: He could say, you know, I think you did a good job, or I think that’s interesting, and let it go.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: But what I find very interesting is your first reaction is to question the legitimacy of his seeing something in you that…

RESPONDENT: Yeah. I suppose it’s probably a self-confidence thing coming back on me.

INTERVIEWER: I think so.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Well, I’m surprised that you’re surprised. You know, I guess I’m surprised that you’re always surprised when other people see talent in you.

RESPONDENT: Mm. I think that it… Well, it may be that, but I think that there’s also a piece of like, “Do you understand that I’ve barely gotten through this master’s degree program? I don’t know how I can legitimately walk…” You know, what kind of games or what kind of things are going to have to be done in order…

INTERVIEWER: Why would it be a game, Seamus?

RESPONDENT: It’s like, well, there’s K accreditation here. And then it’s like… it seems to me like some backroom deals are going to have to happen in order to make this really work.

INTERVIEWER: Wait a second. I’m sorry that I’m laughing with you. What backroom deals? You mean for you to become a doctoral student?

RESPONDENT: Right.

INTERVIEWER: Why?

RESPONDENT: Well, it’s like my first master’s degree is in religious education.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: And if you look at that it’s like there’s not a whole lot… there’s nothing over here that interfaces or looks like any of the master’s degree programs that are [K-crep?] class in the master’s degree program.

INTERVIEWER: Why do they have to be correlated at all? I mean, and I wouldn’t…

RESPONDENT: That’s me. Okay? This is my head going, “Uh… Well, this is kind of…” This is like a non sequitur, it’s like…

INTERVIEWER: You are having some interesting reactions to him seeing talent in you. You’re coming up with all these justifications and rationalizations and trying to push away what might be a powerful truth.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. And I suppose that it’s… you know, I think that I went down this road once before, but sort of that sense of feeling like I’m the imposter.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Okay, can you talk a little bit more about that?

RESPONDENT: It’s like I haven’t even seen my first client yet, and we’re talking about the doctoral program? [laughs]

INTERVIEWER: Well, yes. I mean, first of all, I’m not surprised. As you were talking I thought we should talk about moving on, not to take credit from Silas. And I know Silas, at least on a professional level.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: And when he offers an opportunity it’s kind of freely given, and he means for you if you’re going to take him up on it he’ll be very supportive. And if you’re not, it’s kind of like, no hard feelings.

RESPONDENT: Right.

INTERVIEWER: But at least in my experience with him he really doesn’t say things that he doesn’t mean or make offers that are not legit.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: But your immediate reaction is to come up with all of these things about questioning the legitimacy of the offer and what games are going to be played. There’s nothing that you’ve told me about that you’ve put your mind to professionally…

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah. Right, right.

INTERVIEWER: … that you haven’t done. Why would this be any different? [20:00]

RESPONDENT: Well, I think because for me it’s like I don’t have any control over… or I don’t have enough understanding of the system, or that kind of thing. And it’s like part of it is just we’re going to go up there and talk about it later this afternoon and try to talk with Fred and figure out what I’m going to need to do, what kind of classes I’m going to need to take. And we did have a discussion. I had told him after a few days that it’s like… we were out at the resort and it was like, “You know, this has been a great place to reflect, and I feel like, even though I’m not 100% sure exactly what this means, I feel like, yeah, this is a direction I feel like I want to go.”

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: And I said… you know, and I also asked him, and I said, “I’m going to ask you straight up, not knowing if this is kosher to ask you…”

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: “… but it’s like I know I’m going to need a letter of recommendation for this, would you write me one?” You know, so.

INTERVIEWER: Sure. And what’d he say?

RESPONDENT: He said yeah. You know, “Send me your resume and I’ll put something together.”

INTERVIEWER: That’s great.

RESPONDENT: And then about at the same time Sanders and Fred were just walking by, and he’s just like, “So when we get back we need to figure out how we can get Mr. Seamus going on this,” and that we were just kinda brainstorming some stuff. And she was like, “Well…” And the K-crep thing kind of came up.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: Which I felt like, all right, well, this would be… if I was in her role I’d be concerned about making sure that all the I’s were dotted and T’s were crossed.

INTERVIEWER: Okay, explain what you mean by that, the K-crep thing came up.

RESPONDENT: You know, it’s like, I know that… because I had gone and researched the requirements for the doc program.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: And that one of the requirements, was having graduated from a master’s program that was K-crep certified.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: And it’s like, okay, I’m not there. [22:00]

INTERVIEWER: Well, but you’re in the master’s program.

RESPONDENT: I am in the master’s program.

INTERVIEWER: Does he mean… Okay, does he mean sort of jump into the doc program without finishing the master’s program? Okay. But they do take students who aren’t from a master’s program.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, and that’s…

INTERVIEWER: Okay, so now I’m understanding this is why you’re questioning it. Because you’re talking about kind of not finishing your master’s degree here, because you already have a master’s degree, and then going into the doc program.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: And I think what he was trying to do is figure out some way to kind of hybrid it so that maybe I’m taking a few more master’s degree courses.

INTERVIEWER: Absolutely.

RESPONDENT: And she was kinda talking, it’s like, “Well, let’s… If we stay at the master’s degree level you’re paying less money than if you’re doing the doctoral level stuff.” But like figuring out which of these classes we can kind of use for dual credit, or whatever.

INTERVIEWER: Sure.

RESPONDENT: And I’m like, okay, you’re just in a place that I don’t have any…

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: You know, I don’t have any control over this, I can’t… I don’t even know what you’re talking about at this point.

INTERVIEWER: Okay. So I understand what you mean. Let me see if I can give you an example that might make things clearer. So my undergrad degree was from the Northern Illinois University. When I was applying to graduate school there were two types of doctoral PHC programs at the time that I was applying for. One was you can apply for just a master’s program and get your master’s degree and then go on and apply for a doctoral program. And so you had a program where you applied at a doctoral program and you get your master’s degree along the way.

RESPONDENT: Ah.

INTERVIEWER: Because they want to do your whole educational process. They took a few students who already had a master’s degree, but most of us did not. And we received a master’s degree. You already have a master’s degree, and you have some master’s level classes. So my guess is in speaking with Silas they’re trying to figure out a way where you still get some of your master’s courses under your belt, and then instead of finishing the master’s degree go on for the doctoral degree because you already have a master’s degree, even though it’s not necessarily in counseling psychology. It’s done a lot.

RESPONDENT: Okay.

INTERVIEWER: It’s not that big a deal.

RESPONDENT: Okay.

INTERVIEWER: It’s not… you know.

RESPONDENT: It’s just that… not part of my worldview…

INTERVIEWER: Sure.

RESPONDENT: … and I’m like, “I don’t know what we’re talking about here.”

INTERVIEWER: But if somebody told you now after this trip… you know, if you came back with the idea that you were going to finish your master’s degree and go on for a doctoral degree, this doctoral program, would you be surprised?

RESPONDENT: No, I don’t think so.

INTERVIEWER: No.

RESPONDENT: No.

INTERVIEWER: So this isn’t actually that much different. So however it happens, you finish your master’s degree, you go on for the doctoral degree, or you just jump, right…

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: … right from you kind of transition from master’s courses into the doctoral program, it doesn’t really make much difference, because the end result for you is going to be the same.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. And I… you know, I know what this sounds like, probably the way it’s gonna sound. But I’m like, I got to know all of the other doc students in the program that were on the trip, and I’m like, oh yeah. [25:00]

INTERVIEWER: Oh yeah what?

RESPONDENT: I can handle that.

INTERVIEWER: Well, yeah.

RESPONDENT: You know, it’s like… you know, I’m probably older than all of these other doc students.

INTERVIEWER: Well, here… What is in your mind about the doctorate or people who have doctorates?

RESPONDENT: Yeah, you know…

INTERVIEWER: Because let me just get rid of that right now. [laughter] I mean, what’s in your mind about that?

RESPONDENT: I don’t know. You know, I guess I feel like… You know, first of all it’s like master’s…

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: … ought to say something about like being a master of the content area that you’re studying.

INTERVIEWER: Oh, you take that word so literally!

RESPONDENT: I know.

INTERVIEWER: Not at all. It just means, you know…

RESPONDENT: That you jumped through a few more hoops in order to be able to get to this particular level of education.

INTERVIEWER: Well… of course you’re capable of doctoral work.

RESPONDENT: Mm hm.

INTERVIEWER: Getting a doctorate means you probably had more perseverance than anything, than sort of a mark of intelligence. I don’t really find it’s a mark of intelligence. I know brilliant people who never finished high school, and people who have doctorates that aren’t that bright. It’s not that. It’s kind of about…

RESPONDENT: It’s an endurance test.

INTERVIEWER: It’s an endurance test, but it’s also specializing in an area of knowledge, and it means you can do different things. But that’s it. And I supervise master’s level clinicians, doctoral level clinicians, post docs and professionals. And there is sometimes a difference in skill level, but there’s really not. And I think one of the things that you’ll find is your life experience and who you are…

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: … as well as your desire to learn and intelligence will bode well.

RESPONDENT: Okay.

INTERVIEWER: So you interact with these doctoral students, you’re like, “I could totally do that.” But you should feel that way…

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: …because it’s true.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Then you kind of engaged with Silas and he said the same thing. And so I guess what I’m wondering is how that… if we kind of strip away some of your defensive reactions, how did it feel for him to identify that talent in you? How did it feel?

RESPONDENT: No, I think I felt, you know, a new sense. You know, there was that encouragement, there was that new sense of like, “Oh, I do belong here. I fit in here.”

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: You know? It’s like, okay.

INTERVIEWER: So you’re not the imposter.

RESPONDENT: No, I don’t think I came home necessarily feeling like the imposter, as much as I like… you know, still a little bit confused, just in terms of how this actually happens.

INTERVIEWER: Sure.

RESPONDENT: And it does help to have this explanation right now.

INTERVIEWER: Seamus, that’s kind of an old script. It’s interesting. Because I see in you… you know, not too many people have the confidence to leave an already established job in teaching and, “Oh, I think I’ll start a business.”

RESPONDENT: [laughing]

INTERVIEWER: Right? “Oh, now I think I’m going to jump into a whole other career.” So there is a core of you that really is confident.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Because you take calculated, intelligent career risks that are in line with your talents and skills. [28:00]

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: And you don’t do it willy-nilly, it’s planful, right?

RESPONDENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: And yet this old script from childhood, from your relationships…

RESPONDENT: Something, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: … that tells you that you don’t belong, or you’re not smart enough. Despite the fact that there is every evidence you are.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: So tell me what’s accurate about that for you.

RESPONDENT: Well, it is accurate. And having spent the week with Silas and the whole Adlerian take on things…

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: …it’s like, you know… yeah, that was my dad.

INTERVIEWER: Okay, explain.

RESPONDENT: Well, dad was a blue collar, you know, mechanic.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: And he came home every night and that was the script. You know, he’s dealing with these college educated people that don’t know anything about their car.

INTERVIEWER: Right.

RESPONDENT: So we’re going to make fun of the college educated people who can’t fix their own car.

INTERVIEWER: Sure.

RESPONDENT: Because he’s feeling really, you know, stepped down [on], he’s feeling really… whatever. He has no self-confidence.

INTERVIEWER: But then you became that college educated person.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: The first one in your family.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: So…

INTERVIEWER: The only one, right? Out of your brothers?

RESPONDENT: Out of my immediate family.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. So…

RESPONDENT: I have an uncle that… college grad, but…

INTERVIEWER: The fish out of water.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: But even when you’ve belonged you haven’t felt like you belonged.

RESPONDENT: Even when I belonged… [pause] Yeah, I suppose. As an educator, when I was in industrial arts, it was kind of like, well, I’m just an industrial arts teacher.

INTERVIEWER: Right.

RESPONDENT: You know, it’s like… you know. And in the school system it kind of worked that way. You know, there’s…

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I get it, the academic wing…

RESPONDENT: You know, and half in science, and the academic wing…

INTERVIEWER: Sure. [30:00]

RESPONDENT: … and it’s over here. And it’s like, around the sports people, well, they’re important because they’re sports. And then it’s, you know, the boat people, and it’s just like, whatever.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: I mean, we need them because we got to have a study hall for these kids, we don’t know what to do with them. [laughs]

INTERVIEWER: But you know what, it’s… but that’s not true.

RESPONDENT: No, and I know it wasn’t. And I know that I was really good at what I did, and I was really effective, and I touched kids’ lives, and I get all of that. But there’s also that undecided…

INTERVIEWER: So why do you think it wasn’t enough?

RESPONDENT: [pause] Hm. Wasn’t enough?

INTERVIEWER: Wasn’t enough to fully legitimize what you were doing.

RESPONDENT: Mm hm. [pause] I wonder if I… I’ve never heard that question put that way before. Is it that? Or… [pause] I just remember feeling really… um… kind of burned out.

INTERVIEWER: No.

RESPONDENT: No?

INTERVIEWER: I don’t mean enough to stay, I mean enough to feel legitimized. Right?

RESPONDENT: Mm.

INTERVIEWER: You find places where you do belong.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Right? Even I would say embraced. But you never quite feel like you fit. Legitimized.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, that could be. That could be the case.

INTERVIEWER: You began describing being early on sort of this imposter phenomenon where you were…

RESPONDENT: Uh huh.

INTERVIEWER: … and then it’s through kind of sort of talking about it out loud where you realize, well, you’re not exactly an imposter, you’re kind of right where you belong.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: You know. And then Silas goes, “Look, you should come to the doctorate program.” And I’m sure that brings about anxiety and pride and all these kind of conflicting emotions.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: But then again that’s right where you belong. And yet your first response is to feel like, I don’t belong.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. I don’t belong, or I’m not sure I’m good enough.

INTERVIEWER: Right. That’s an old script.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: It’s outdated and not true.

RESPONDENT: [chuckles] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is interesting.

INTERVIEWER: Well, what’s interesting?

RESPONDENT: Well, I’m just thinking about it. It’s like teaching, and then working. You know, those… Because clearly, you know, I can go back to my portfolio of all the projects that I have worked on. It’s like, yeah, for ten or twelve years we were in a fairly successful little business, you know…

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: … and we did some stuff, you know. [33:00]

INTERVIEWER: But you’re diminishing your own joy in the doing of it. I mean, you find things that you’re really good at, but because it’s not legitimate, or it’s not as good as this over here, it’s almost like you can’t enjoy it as much, even when you’re enjoying it.

RESPONDENT: [pause] That may be true. I’m thinking that… You know, I think I can point to some years or some stretches certainly in both of those careers where I really felt like, okay, I’m riding the wave. And I know I’m there. You know, I’m in it, I’m digging it. But at some point, or for whatever reason, that just wanes.

INTERVIEWER: Right.

RESPONDENT: And… you know, whatever that old song was. You know, “The feeling’s gone and I just can’t get it back.” [chuckles] You know, that sense of passion, or whatever…

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: … about those careers.

INTERVIEWER: But they’re all… you know, all of your careers are related to one another. You’re not off in one thing over here. I mean, they’re all nicely related, right, in one way… Even religious education. I mean, that’s pretty broad. I mean, it’s all kind of related. You’re not sort of far out there. It’s not that kind of losing passion that I’m concerned about, it’s the not feeling good enough, or not feeling like what you’re doing is legit enough, or that somebody else is doing something more important than what you’re doing. It’s kind of like when people say psychology’s not a real science, or you’re not a real doctor. That doesn’t affect me at all. I mean, I could care less. I enjoy what I do.

RESPONDENT: Mm hm.

INTERVIEWER: Right. And when I get bored with one aspect of what I do I just kinda change it up and do something else within the same field. You know, because psychology’s broad enough to be doing a bunch of different things.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah. [35:00]

INTERVIEWER: But those things… you know, I’m so unaffected by that, because I feel like what I am doing is what I’m supposed to be doing.

RESPONDENT: Mm. Mm hm, mm hm.

INTERVIEWER: Does any of that resonate with you?

RESPONDENT: No, I think so.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: You know, I really do. I feel like even though I’m not necessarily sure that I’ve—what’s the word I’m looking for?—that I’ve found my home…

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: … yet…

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: … in this field, I feel like there’s nothing… And certainly this trip helped a lot in terms of making me feel like, okay, I’ve got a family now.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: You know, I’m gonna…

INTERVIEWER: Oh, so tell me about that.

RESPONDENT: Well, you know, it’s like you’re in these situations with people for three weeks. It’s like you’re automatically thrown into having to deal with life and death issues, and all of this kind of thing. And it’s like those are the kind of experiences that develop relationships all of a sudden.

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: Or you spend a five hour van ride with somebody…

INTERVIEWER: Or a tuk tuk.

RESPONDENT: Well, you’re not talking so much with a tuk tuk.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: You know, that’s just bold fear. You’re sharing fear together.

INTERVIEWER: [laughs]

RESPONDENT: But having those kind of opportunities, it’s like nobody else in this program is going to have that ability…

INTERVIEWER: Sure.

RESPONDENT: … to develop those kind of relationships with the people… We’re a commuter college, and with the cohort system there were a lot of people there that know the other cohort.

INTERVIEWER: Sure.

RESPONDENT: So they got to interact with different cohorts, and all of that was great. And now it’s kind of like, oh, I miss those guys.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: You know, three weeks together, and then it’s like, oh.

INTERVIEWER: You’re going to have to try to stay in touch with people. This trip seems like it was really good for you.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. Yeah. I really… Yeah, I knew I was going to have some life changing effects, it’s just like, okay, what’s it gonna be?

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. [37:00]

RESPONDENT: So yeah. And I’m sure I’m going to be reflecting on that for quite some time yet. But there is a sense of coming from it. And it’s like, there is a renewed kind of energy.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: Maybe a little less, I don’t know, tension.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. How was it coming… how was it coming home?

RESPONDENT: It was… it was okay. You know, it was kind of like, well, I feel like there’s been some changes here. And even though it…

INTERVIEWER: In you?

RESPONDENT: Yeah. Even though I’m not 100% sure what that is yet.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: And it’s like I’m walking back into kind of life as it always was.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: And it’s like, okay. And it’s like, well, this is how life always was. And somehow today it’s not bothering me.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: It’s like, I’m all good with this. Or whatever. This is kind of what I expected. Okay.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: You know, I got back late, my wife had just come from a concert, she was over at her best friend’s house and I got dropped over there. A friend of mine picked me up at the airport and dropped me off because she was doing this concert. And it was kind of like, “Hey, how you doing? Let’s hear a few stories.” And then they continued their conversation about critiquing the concert and kind of life going on. And it’s like, “Oh, all right, well, this is the way it is.”

INTERVIEWER: Right.

RESPONDENT: You know, why should I expect that I’m going to have the stage to talk about my trip for…

INTERVIEWER: Any disappointment there?

RESPONDENT: You know, a little bit. But on the other hand, it’s like, no, this is where they’re at. You know?

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: This is where they’re at. And it’s like I… Yeah. For me to have an expectation of things being different is only going to set me up for being disappointed. And I’m like, okay.

INTERVIEWER: Did you get a chance to see that movie?

RESPONDENT: I did not.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: And I…

INTERVIEWER: I wouldn’t think that you would, being gone for so…

RESPONDENT: No. We barely… I was able to set up a blog site, and I was able to get about a dozen blog entries during…

INTERVIEWER: That’s great. During your trip?

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: That’s great.

RESPONDENT: But it was difficult to get decent Internet. And I felt like there were times where like, okay, I’ve got Internet right now, I’m going to do something real quick and try to send it out before I lose the Internet.

INTERVIEWER: Sure.

RESPONDENT: So I got a dozen little… that I sent back to the folks at home and anybody that cared to plug into the blog site. And…

INTERVIEWER: That’s cool.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: Because I don’t do the Facebook thing…

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: … and I was thinking about it prior to going and then let it… no, I just don’t want to do that. So I set up a blog and I just posted a few pictures and some thoughts about being in India when I was there. So people were able to keep up a little bit with me. And I did a few face-time calls when I was over there and that kind of thing. Yeah, you know, I’ve kind of jumped back into regular life, and there’s regular schedules going on. And my daughter came home Sunday. [40:30]

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: She did a little surprise trip, she drove three hours, she and her boyfriend came up to see me. And that felt nice.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: That felt nice that she did that, and that kind of thing. So… [pause] Yeah, you know, I think it… being back from the trip I really just haven’t… I’ve been more focused on that, rather than focused too much on the relationship thing. And I recognize that it’s like, well, I’m just in this place of like…

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, maybe… maybe you don’t want to think about that right now. Kinda just…

RESPONDENT: Yeah, it’s kind of where…

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: It kind of feels like that. And I’m like, nah. And I don’t know if that’s necessarily being in a place of denial, or whatever. It’s just like, ah. You know, I’ve got this doctoral piece…

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: … and I’m jumping back into school, and it’s like, yeah, let’s go in that direction, it seems more interesting. [laughs]

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Or, you know, put this piece on hold, because that piece is constant, and kind of absorb all of your sort of insights and reflections from the trip, and then what this means, this kind of talking to Silas and kind of him taking an interest in you, what this is going to mean for you personally and professionally.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I think that there might even be a small potential that I could be going back to India.

INTERVIEWER: Okay, do tell.

RESPONDENT: And I don’t know if Silas’ going to be going back to India anymore.

INTERVIEWER: Okay, okay.

RESPONDENT: You know, because of his health and…

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: But there may be enough of a connection there that some of the people in the program… you know, some of the other professors would have to kind of lead that trip up. But I think that the mindfulness piece I think is enough of an interest for Silas that I think that… you know, I think he has a stake in wanting to keep something like that going.

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: For me, I had plenty of time to think about it while I’m over there and I’m thinking… you know, I had a discussion, or I started a conversation with Perry Tulley and… oh, shoot, I lost her name. I think she’s in social work. But they’re involved in mindfulness here at the college. And there was discussion of that they had thought about trying to put together a mindfulness institute.

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: But they were just kind of feeling discouraged about it and didn’t really know how to make it happen. And I’m like, “Yeah, I think you could make that happen.” I think that could be a project. I could do this.

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm. [43:30]

RESPONDENT: This could be a capstone project, or I could…

INTERVIEWER: What makes you think you can do it?

RESPONDENT: Because I’m excited about it. And it’s like I can do stuff.

INTERVIEWER: See, but that’s the… it’s the fascinating dichotomy. That I believe you can, you know. And a large part of you believes you can too.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Where does the apostrophes come in? Where does the piece… you know, this sort of confidence in yourself that you can—and do, you can do it, and you do do it—and yet this kind of… you know, not that you’re given to arrogance and have no self-doubt, but this kind of self-doubt piece that nags at you.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. You know, I’m sure that that is kind of a childhood thing, that that’s all still there. And I think that it’s like looking… What I’m seeing in my head right now is like the list of criteria.

INTERVIEWER: Explain.

RESPONDENT: It’s like the criteria for passing the master’s degree.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: And it’s like, no, haven’t had that class, haven’t done that, haven’t done that. It’s like, “You haven’t done any of this stuff.”

INTERVIEWER: Well, what haven’t you done? I mean, you said you were barely getting through the master’s program, which I find hard to believe. What does that mean?

RESPONDENT: Well, I mean, I’m, what, two, three semesters into this?

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: And, you know…

INTERVIEWER: That’s enough to know, Seamus.

RESPONDENT: … haven’t seen any clients, haven’t done any practicum work, haven’t… you know. So whatever.

INTERVIEWER: What… I guess what difference does that make? [45:00]

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: How would that be different for you?

RESPONDENT: It wouldn’t. Because I feel like… You know, I’ve been doing these mindful meditation classes for the last five years. I do plenty of informal one-on-one counseling with people all the time.

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: Nobody calls it that, but that’s what’s going on.

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: And I know I’m not going to have any problem in dealing…

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: You know, I’m sure that there will be problem clients, and I’m sure that there will be serious problems that I will encounter and issues that I’m not going to know how to handle well and things like that.

INTERVIEWER: But that’s why you’re in training.

RESPONDENT: Right, right.

INTERVIEWER: So what difference does it make that… I mean, I think you can decide if you know your own mind. And the thing is, you do know your own mind. Sometimes you may struggle with how you feel about things, or kind of different aspects of things going on, but you know your own mind. I guess if I could sort of give you something it would be—and I don’t know if I can—but thinking about learning how to trust yourself consciously. Because I think you trust yourself on an unconscious level, because there’s no way you could have just left one career, picked up another career, done well, left the other career, in a mindful intelligent way without having some trust in yourself, without having some planning, right?

RESPONDENT: Mm hm, mm hm.

INTERVIEWER: Because, as I said before, none of these were impulsive decisions, and they were all in line with an already developed skill set that you decided to develop more. That bespeaks of confidence, right?

RESPONDENT: Mm hm.

INTERVIEWER: I wish you could trust yourself consciously, make a conscious effort. You can still be scared, you can still be anxious. Right. Because if you weren’t, then I’d be concerned, because you don’t exactly know what you’re getting into. Seeing clients professionally changes all of us all the time. Right. Who you are as a counselor ten years ago is different ten years from now, as it should be. But if you could trust yourself consciously you might have more joy with what you’re doing. Because you know what you’re doing. You do. So it wouldn’t really matter if you had decided, “I’m going to go for my doctorate.” on day one of the master’s program, or when you graduated with your master’s degree. It wouldn’t make a difference.

RESPONDENT: Hm. Mm hm, mm hm.

INTERVIEWER: Not for you. Maybe for someone else, but not for you. Tell me what you hear me saying.

RESPONDENT: I think… You know, I’m going to spend some more time trying to get at the core of that. But there’s some deep childhood stuff there. [48:00]

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: And even though I can’t put my finger on it, there is that sense of like what message was it that I got from my folks? Was it my mom, was it my dad? Who was it that handed me that gift…

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: … that you’re… that you’re not good enough? Or where did that come from? You know?

INTERVIEWER: Well, I think that definitely deserves some thought, because it is one of the themes of our work together. But I’m imagining your dad as a mechanic. And you got your brains from somewhere. I mean, I imagine your parents were pretty bright people. You know.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: And being a mechanic is a different kind of talent. That’s all. But it involves some intelligence. But he it sounds like didn’t feel good about the type of intelligence he had, which is why he had to put down the college boys.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Right?

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: So some of it you probably earned honestly. Right? Because when we don’t feel good about ourselves we tend to just pass it on down the line.

RESPONDENT: Sure.

INTERVIEWER: Right?

RESPONDENT: Sure.

INTERVIEWER: And then you were a fish out of water because you weren’t going to be a mechanic, you weren’t going to be a laborer, you were going to be a college boy, and that’s not necessarily what we do in this family.

RESPONDENT: Mm hm.

INTERVIEWER: Right. And so instead of… And I can see echoes of that. My grandmother, my paternal grandmother had a college degree, but my paternal grandfather had a sixth grade education. And couldn’t read well, but could do complex mathematics in his head. So he was very bright. And my dad, who had a college education and went on to get a master’s degree, a doctorate, whatever, they had nothing to talk about. Because my grandfather was like, “What do you do?” Right. But his own insecurity didn’t allow him to really be supportive and understand what my father was doing. But those brains came from somewhere. [50:00]

RESPONDENT: Yeah. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Tell me what you’re sort of taking away from this.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, well, what you were just saying there, that sense of like, you know, I put myself in this place where there’s sort of this alienation that gets built up.

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: And it’s like, okay, now I don’t know how to relate to you. Yeah, and then my mind was just jumping to, “Oh, well, look at that. Now isn’t that kind of what’s going on in your marriage relationship?”

INTERVIEWER: Explain.

RESPONDENT: That, you know, it’s like… you know, whether it be… you know, whatever. I mean, there’s a lot more things going on than that. But now I’m in… now I’m in a completely different career path than… maybe two career paths different than when we started out.

INTERVIEWER: Sure.

RESPONDENT: And it’s just like how much…

INTERVIEWER: Getting farther and farther apart?

RESPONDENT: Yeah. It’s like it was so nice to be able to just have conversations with people on the trip that could speak my speak.

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: And it was really nice to be understood… [laughs]

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: … by people for three weeks.

INTERVIEWER: Understood, appreciated. And validated.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: But I do wonder if you belong far more places than you think you do. But because of the old script of alienation. Right?

RESPONDENT: Mm hm, mm hm.

INTERVIEWER: I mean, I see you very easily… You know, one of the interesting things about Phoenix University for me, and this is my twelfth year here, is that there are so many students that come here who are smart, and have never been told “you’re smart,” and have had to crawl over glass to get here and do well.

RESPONDENT: Right.

INTERVIEWER: And then they find people of like minds, they find other people who have had non-traditional career paths…

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: … and professors who go, “Wow, you’re really smart. Why don’t you do these twelve things,” and the students are shocked and surprised. And it’s kind of this amazing place of growth. I mean, I hope bringing freshmen here doesn’t kind of change that. But maybe this is where you belong and you’re doing what you’re supposed to be doing at this point…

RESPONDENT: Yeah, sure. Sure.

INTERVIEWER: … in your life experience and varied career path and everything you’ve been through, you’re going to pull all of that out of you and that’s going to go directly into your work as a counselor.

RESPONDENT: Sure, sure.

INTERVIEWER: So you’re not actually starting from 20 years ago, you’re starting from today.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: And maybe you don’t have to project or interject the feeling of being an impostor. Because I don’t think you are here.

RESPONDENT: Mm hm. [pause] Yeah. No, it… yeah. No, and I think that that trip… I think that the trip really helped me to feel that.

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: You know, again, that sense of family…

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: … a sense of belonging, a sense of like, wow, okay, okay. You know, some validation. It’s like, okay, I’m ready to jump…

INTERVIEWER: You can be like that in your life.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. [53:00]

INTERVIEWER: It can be like that in your life.

RESPONDENT: Mm hm.

INTERVIEWER: And in some places, maybe not at home, but in some places, you might have more control over that than you think you do.

RESPONDENT: Mm. Mm hm, mm hm. Yeah, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: What would it be like if you lived like that, with that feeling more often than not?

RESPONDENT: Well, I think it would… I think it be probably more energizing.

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: Probably more productive.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: You know, I could see myself getting things [snaps fingers, snap, snap]. It’s like psssst! [hand gliding along]. You know, it’s like being in the zone. It’s like, “Okay, here we go.”

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm. You’re a driven guy, Seamus.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, I must be.

INTERVIEWER: That’s not a bad thing to be.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah. So I think it’s finding all of those pieces, and it’s like setting those pieces up, and it’s like, I’ve got a little talent for this, I’m enjoying what I’m doing, it seems to be beneficial. It’s got all of these things going for it, and it’s easy to get… it’s easy to get into that place. And I think when I’m there what I recognize is that I have a little bit of talent for being the orchestrator or the conductor.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: It’s like when I really got into my place as a teacher I felt like I could feel the… I could feel the being able to see it all, and then being able to like delegate things and make… you know, seeing the talents in kids, and making things happen. And pulling… making student organizations happen, and putting the right people in the right places, and that kind of thing. So it’s like, yeah, I know I have some gifts for that, I know I can make that happen. [55:00]

INTERVIEWER: Yes you do. So of course then actually this career path makes a lot of sense. It’s congruent.

RESPONDENT: Oh yeah. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: So maybe you become Dr. Seamus, I can totally see that. Maybe you go on and you’re a professor.

RESPONDENT: And I think that that was a seed that I planted a long time ago. And it was like, I’d really like to do that someday.

INTERVIEWER: So this is not a shock.

RESPONDENT: It’s not a shock, except that I wrote another story along with that that said that in order to be able to do that you’re going to have to be an expert at whatever it is that you’re doing.

INTERVIEWER: Pffft! Who told you that?

RESPONDENT: I did.

INTERVIEWER: [laughing] Let me tell you…

RESPONDENT: And I’m brilliant.

INTERVIEWER: [laughing] Uh, I don’t know.

RESPONDENT: But that’s what I’m say…

INTERVIEWER: But I’m a full-time professor and I don’t think we’re an expert at anything.

RESPONDENT: But yeah, see, that’s my own tripping block.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: That I set that standard.

INTERVIEWER: Mm hm.

RESPONDENT: So when somebody else is coming and trying to… and it’s like, well, wait a minute, you’re not meeting…

INTERVIEWER: You know, I think meeting with Silas will be really good for you. I want you to ask him a question. You could always tell him that I told you to ask a question if you feel comfortable doing that, but you don’t have to. But ask him, when did he feel like he became the expert. [pause] And what does he feel like he’s an expert in.

RESPONDENT: Mm hm.

INTERVIEWER: Just ask him those questions and see what he says.

RESPONDENT: All right.

INTERVIEWER: You know, “When did you feel like you became the expert? And what do you feel like you’re an expert in?” That word, expert.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: You know. And then if he asks you where it’s coming from, whatever, you can blame it on me. Or you cannot. But, you know…

RESPONDENT: Mm hm, mm hm. [57:00]

INTERVIEWER: I think your idea of what it means to have a doctorate, or what it means to be a professor, it’s really just who you are and what you bring. And if you were a talented teacher to kids, you’d be a talented professor.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. And when I sit back and I analyze the professors that I’ve had, it’s like, well, I’ve had a handful of really good ones.

INTERVIEWER: Sure.

RESPONDENT: But most of them, mmm yeah, I could have done their job.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: Not even knowing what the curriculum is. It’s like, well, give me five… give me five, ten minutes with the curriculum…

INTERVIEWER: Well, this is… somebody might take you up on that. [laughs]

RESPONDENT: Give me five, ten minutes with the curriculum, I’m sure I’ll do a better job than whatever it is…

INTERVIEWER: And why do you think that is?

RESPONDENT: I don’t know. (a), I’ve done enough teaching to know that… Yeah, what we’re teaching is people, not a curriculum. [58:00]

INTERVIEWER: Okay. But why do you think it is that you think you could do that, do a better job? What it factor do you think?

RESPONDENT: I think that probably when I feel like I could be doing a better job than whoever happens to be in front of the… you know, it’s that I’m intuiting that they really don’t want to be there, or…

INTERVIEWER: Okay. So what do you call that, that… what you have?

RESPONDENT: Well, I think… you know, I know…

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: … that there are just some people that have the talent to be able to do that.

INTERVIEWER: The talent, or maybe the passion or the energy.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: So when you’re up there… you know, when you were telling me about orchestrating things, seeing talented kids, that requires energy.

RESPONDENT: Mm hm.

INTERVIEWER: Right? Or passion. Passion is just another way of saying energy, it’s a particular type of energy. Right?

RESPONDENT: Mm hm.

INTERVIEWER: So I think good teachers have a passion for what they do.

RESPONDENT: Sure.

INTERVIEWER: It looks different, depending on who you are.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Right? But they’re energized by what they’re doing…

RESPONDENT: Sure.

INTERVIEWER: … and they’re passionate about their subject area. Right. So is that why you’re saying you think I could pick it up in ten minutes and do a better job, because is that the it that you’re talking about?

RESPONDENT: Yeah, I think it’s the it of being able to connect with people.

INTERVIEWER: All right, but that is one of the things that drives you. And that is why you’re not an imposter.

RESPONDENT: Mm hm.

INTERVIEWER: You know, I think in our early work together I said, you know, you’re a deep guy, and connecting to people is important to you.

RESPONDENT: Mm hm.

INTERVIEWER: Right. You’re not an unemotional man at all. And so that is the part that makes you not an imposter. [pause] Not in this environment. [1:00:00]

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. [pause] Yeah. I think that… I think I see that. You know, certainly after this trip I’m feeling less of those… you know, that insecurity.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: You know, about the program, and feeling like… To a certain degree I have to admit that I’ve been kind of bored with the graduate level classes that I’ve been taking so far.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: It’s like, yeah, this has not been really difficult.

INTERVIEWER: Well, but it… I don’t think it’s going to be difficult for you. I don’t think it’s about being difficult. It’s about what are you going to take with what you’re doing and channel it into the clinical realm. Right? So I don’t think something has to be difficult to be challenging, or something has to be difficult to change us. It may not be academically difficult for you at all. And you may find that the doctoral level classes are… they may be work intensive, but not necessarily academically difficult. Right?

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: But that’s not the measure of anything, right. It’s kind of like, what are you going to do with this information?

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: You know, how are you going to be changed by it, how are you going to change it, and what kind of counsel… like where are you going to channel it?

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Right. So what are you going to do with it? So I don’t think it… I don’t think you have to feel like you’re being challenged to death academically to kind of take in the knowledge and then to do something with it.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. That’s a good point. I think this probably needing to rethink or re-envision what a master’s program… what a doc program looks like.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: And it’s like… yeah. Because it’s not serving me real well right now, you know, to have those old notions.

INTERVIEWER: You know, I don’t learn anything to mastery until I have to teach it to somebody else.

RESPONDENT: Right. [1:02:00]

INTERVIEWER: Not ever. Not ever. Like I learned DSM-V really, really well not in my doctoral program, but when I began to teach practicum internship.

RESPONDENT: Right.

INTERVIEWER: Right? I think I was a good counselor in graduate school, but when I really had to teach other people how to be counselors then I had to learn it to mastery. And mastery changes. I mean, you have to change mastery to remain good at it.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: So instead I guess kind of as we end today what I would challenge you to do is find your joy in what you’re doing. Find your joy in it. And enjoy the hell out of it.

RESPONDENT: Mm hm.

INTERVIEWER: Right, just really enjoy what you’re learning, enjoy where you are, enjoy the fact that you belong.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: You know, enjoy the fact that you developed this great relationship with this very knowledgeable man who sees things in you, and feel free to pick his brain about things, and if he offers you opportunities, I can tell you from firsthand experience, take them. And challenge yourself to continue to grow…

RESPONDENT: Mm hm, mm hm.

INTERVIEWER: … about things. And face… you know, we’re working on killing off the old script. It doesn’t fit.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: And it doesn’t have to hold you back. So find your joy in what you’re doing, and know that you belong here.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. Yeah. No, and I think I do. You know, really I think…

INTERVIEWER: Good.

RESPONDENT: … if the trip gave me anything, it gave me that. So that was… I brought souvenirs back for people in the family…

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

RESPONDENT: … and I’m like, I don’t really need anything.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: Because I got that.

INTERVIEWER: Well, I’d love to see a couple pictures here and there when you…

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