TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Okay. I was like, “I’m remiss. Oh, I’m remiss in my things.”

CLIENT: Should I post-date?

THERAPIST: Um, do whatever makes you happy, it’s okay. As long as I have your permission it doesn’t matter.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Thank you. So how are you? How was the letdown from India?

CLIENT: Well, I still have a souvenir from India

THERAPIST: Uh oh! Good or bad?

CLIENT: Ear infection.

THERAPIST: Mm!

CLIENT: I had a cold, a sinus infection.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: And then it developed into bronchitis. And then it developed into this ear infection, and it’s just hanging on. And now the last couple of days I’m like… it’s starting to like… I’m feeling it in my throat.

THERAPIST: Did you get some antibiotics?

CLIENT: I called… I went to my doctor two weeks ago…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: … and he’s like, “Yeah, it’s right in there, but you know what, let’s try to avoid the antibiotics. Just ride it out. You can ride it out.” And now it’s like I’m like, “Dude, if I’m getting strep out of this I’m really not going to be happy.”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I called him this morning and just filled him in on the details and I’m like waiting for a return call.

THERAPIST: “Can you just call it into the pharmacy and not make me suffer?”

CLIENT: I’ve got another ace in my… I got another friend…

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: … who’s a doctor. He’s like, “Look, if he doesn’t give you meds just call me, I’ll write you something.”

THERAPIST: Okay. That’s great. Because they don’t like to do that. They don’t… you know, they’re like, “No, I won’t even do that for my mom.” So that’s a good friend, keep him around.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I’m like, “Just give me a Z-Pak. I just need to get over this thing.”

THERAPIST: Sure, sure.

CLIENT: I’m in classes where I need to hear. I can’t hear out of my right ear.

THERAPIST: Oh, gosh.

CLIENT: And I’ve got hearing loss in my left ear. So I’m working on like less…

THERAPIST: I don’t think I knew that you had hearing loss.

CLIENT: Well…

THERAPIST: A little bit?

CLIENT: You know, it’s from being in… teaching for 15 years in industrial art shops with no hearing protection. [00:02:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I bet.

CLIENT: So.

THERAPIST: I bet, I bet.

CLIENT: You know, yeah. So just…

THERAPIST: So you were gonna think about some things.

CLIENT: I’ve been thinking about a lot of things.

THERAPIST: Oh, do tell!

CLIENT: I’m trying to remember our conversations. But I’m thinking probably the… you know, the thing that I was talking about the most that day was probably the doctoral thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I’ve kind of like decided that, yeah, I can kind of put… I can kind of slow that down a little bit.

THERAPIST: Okay. Okay.

CLIENT: You know, it’s like it’s still gonna be there. And it gives me some time to reflect on this. Because I’m like, okay, I really need to see this doc program…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: … because I’m thinking I feel like… I know that we had this discussion, but I’m like, I just need a foundation.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I need a foundation. And I’m like… it’s not that I’m feeling like I’m not good enough or… like I know I could do the work, but…

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: … I need a foundation.

THERAPIST: So you feel like you’d—which is completely fine—you kind of feel better about it by getting the master’s degree and then going on.

CLIENT: Or at least getting enough of the master’s degree to say, “Okay, I’ve got a foundation.”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And if like… you know, there’s an experience that’s parallel or similar to practicum…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: … where it’s like, “Okay…” You’re doing exactly the same thing.

THERAPIST: You mean at the doctoral level.

CLIENT: At the doctoral level.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that’s like…

CLIENT: And I’m like… again, I don’t know enough about the program to be able to say that, you know.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But the whole point was to like get myself this career for the third half of my life.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I just need… you know. And I’ve had enough life experience to know that, you know, from building a house, it’s like the most important thing is to get the foundation right. [00:4:00]

THERAPIST: True. True.

CLIENT: So it’s like… And I recognized going into these beginning counseling classes that I’m doing right now. It’s like, “Oh yeah, I’ve got a lot to learn here. [unclear]”

THERAPIST: Sure, you have a lot to bring and a lot to learn, which is always the case.

CLIENT: Well, yeah. Yeah. And I’m not like… I’m not in that place of feeling like I’m not good enough, or I don’t…

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know, it’s like really, I…

THERAPIST: So it sounds like you kinda did some work around that and kinda looked within. Because the last time we talked sort of your gut instinct was, “I don’t know.” And then it was, “Well, I could do that.” But it’s kinda nice to know you can do it and you don’t have to do it right now.

CLIENT: Yeah. And then part of me really wants to sit with it and go, “Is this really the direction I want to go?”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, is that academic path the one that I want to go down?

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Or am I more of a clinician? Do I want to…

THERAPIST: Well, you get to be both. I think that’s the thing that’s exciting about it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, that’s what I do for my full-time job.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: And, you know, I think either way. I mean, the kind of great thing about it is the compliment’s been paid, you’ve thought about what it sort of has meant to your life and what it’s meant to your career path, but either way you’re going to get there.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And whether you decide to just stop at the master’s degree—you can still teach on adjunct level if you want to, and still practice and become licensed—or go on for the doctorate.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Either way it’s a win-win. So…

CLIENT: I think it is, and I think that one of the things… and I don’t know if we had this discussion, but was it before or after our meeting? But I went up and had a discussion with Dr. Fred about it.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Was that…

THERAPIST: No, I think you were going to.

CLIENT: So it was like, you know, she’s like, “Well, I’ll take a look at your transcripts from your other degrees and see what you got.” And I really felt like she was trying to work with me.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But it’s like, look, her position is, I have to be legit about this. [00:06:00]

THERAPIST: Oh yeah. Well, that was always going to be the case.

CLIENT: Yeah. But in the process of looking at my transcript she like found… you know, she did some stuff, it’s like, “Well, we could call this class this.” She ended up giving me like three or four classes.

THERAPIST: Okay. Yeah.

CLIENT: I’m like, all right, I’m not going to push this thing. I mean, I felt like she did some things. And it was like we recognized that I had taken this intro to research class.

THERAPIST: Right, right.

CLIENT: It’s been a long time ago, but I took an intro to research class.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: She goes, “Well, you’ve taken an intro to research class.” It’s like, “Well, we can get rid of the 6610 easy.”

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: You know. And it’s like she gave me a couple of other ones. It’s like in the end I feel like, okay, she gave me a semester.

THERAPIST: Sure. Oh, that’s great. Did she give it to you towards this master’s degree?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, that’s great.

CLIENT: So I’m like, okay.

THERAPIST: That’s great.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I felt like I don’t want to overdo this thing. It’s like I feel like… and for my own sake. I want to make sure that I can do this. You know, that I’ve got enough of a foundation to do this. And I feel like, yeah, self confidence-wise it’s like, okay, I know I’m going to be able to do this.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I recognize though that throughout my other career as a teacher, a woodworker, it’s like you went and you did the classes that you needed to do to learn a new skill. It’s like I regularly took classes in the summertime, week or two long classes to learn a new school. And that’s what I feel like I’m doing here, it’s like I’m learning some new skills. [00:08:00]

THERAPIST: Well, and you know, I think you… it sounds like you’re making kind of an informed decision and the right one for you, but this is not… she did you kind of a nice turn in looking at your transcript again, but that’s kind of what program directors do. Like I do it all the time. And I’m saying it to say it’s not that she’s doing you a special favor, it’s kind of like what we do. So any time a student says, “Can you review my transcript, I think these classes might count for something,” that’s her job to do it.

CLIENT: I see.

THERAPIST: You know. And so don’t feel like… Because quite frankly, she has to approve it and the registrar’s office has to kind of sign off on it. So you’re not… I guess I want to say, you’re not cheating the process, right.

CLIENT: No. And I don’t necessarily feel like I’m doing that.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I sort of felt like it was like she took a look at it, she did all she felt she could do at this point, and said, “You know what, this is about all I can do.”

THERAPIST: Here’s what you got. Right. You got three classes. Sure.

CLIENT: You know. And I’m like, okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I’m good with that. I’m gonna at this point just say smile… I’m gonna smile, say thank you, and just kinda let it ride for a little bit.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I know that they opened up their graduate… their deadline, they extended their deadline, so they’re opening it up to allow other people to get in.

THERAPIST: You mean the doctoral program?

CLIENT: I’m sorry, the doctoral program.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But at this point I’m just really like, yeah, let’s see where it’s at in a year.

THERAPIST: Okay. Well, I mean, it sounds like you’re very comfortable with that decision.

CLIENT: You know, I think I am.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: And I really… I’m kind of engaged in these classes now, and I recognize, wow, this is… If I felt like all of the classes that I was sitting in were not challenging, and I wasn’t learning anything, and it’s like, “What’s the next thing?”, then I’d be feeling different about that. I’m sitting next to somebody in one of my classes who’s there. [00:10:00]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know, she’s coming here from South Africa.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: She’s got a master’s degree in counseling.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So we’re talking. It’s like, “Why aren’t you in the doc program?”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And she goes, “Well, X, Y, and Z classes they’re not counting.”

THERAPIST: They are not going to count, yeah.

CLIENT: “That’s why I’m in these classes. So I have to take these classes.” And I’m like, “Did you talk to anybody about that? Who did you talk to about that?” So I’m like…

THERAPIST: International transfers are difficult.

CLIENT: Are they really?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. They’re more likely to… disinclined to accept things than to accept them. Because psychology in counseling is so culturally based. And given that this is a [K credit? 10:45] program they have… very guide…

CLIENT: No, I get it.

THERAPIST: … guidelines. But it sounds like you’ve really thought a lot about this. What about the compliment that Nick Peterson paid you, what are you going to do with that?

CLIENT: Well, you know, I think I want to continue to try to maintain that relationship as best I can.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know, if there’s a chance to be a grad student for him I’ll pursue that. But I’ll try to maintain that relationship as best I can. And I’m not exactly sure how to do that, but it’s like just trying to put myself in his path.

THERAPIST: Sure. I don’t think he’d probably mind if you stayed in touch with him and asked him if he’s got any projects he, you know, wants a fellow Taoist to join him on.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: I don’t think he has a problem with that. I can’t speak for him, but I don’t think he would.

CLIENT: Yeah, you know. So it’s like I think that that’s… Yeah, it’s good. You know, I want to maintain that without making it look like I’m a, you know, gold digger or whatever. It’s just like I like the guy, and I want to maintain…

THERAPIST: Well, so that’s funny to me. Why would he think when he initiated kind of the discussion with you that you are… [00:12:00]

CLIENT: I think that it’s just maybe a perception that people might have.

THERAPIST: Of you?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Where is that coming from?

CLIENT: You know, I don’t know. It’s probably… You know, it’s kinda the way I operate.

THERAPIST: Explain.

CLIENT: As a student, like when I was in high school…

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: … I was just like… not that I felt like I was doing it to manipulate.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I recognize now through further study of like the Myers-Briggs thing, the NFP personality type, it’s like it’s just how we operate. We want the connections, you know.

THERAPIST: So explain to me. Go ahead.

CLIENT: Just, uh… I recognize that in order for like the education process to happen it’s like, you know, I want to know more than just what the teacher shows up with.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s like I want to know the person behind… I want to know the rela[tionship]… I want to have a relationship with the instructor outside of the classroom.

THERAPIST: Okay. But why would that be kind of a negative thing?

CLIENT: Evidently it’s…

THERAPIST: Because I don’t perceive you as having major boundary issues and calling people at home.

CLIENT: I think it’s just one of those kind of things where it probably… I don’t remember an incident, but it’s like anybody who has a relationship with the teacher…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: … you know, the teacher’s pet, brown noser, or that kind of thing. It’s like I never recog[nized]… but that must have happened, you know, throughout the process, because I feel that kind of thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you know, this is I think another theme again I think, being really concerned about what other people think of you.

CLIENT: Oh my God, that’s the number one thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: But it’s pretty consistent through your whole life.

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: As well as sort of this sort of existential search for meaning, purpose, you know. But that sort of is a…

CLIENT: That’s the dragon that’s always been there. [00:14:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah, can we… It keeps sort of coming back to that. Can we talk a little bit about…

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: … why you think wanting a relationship… and it’s probably with just certain professors, it’s probably not with every single one of them.

CLIENT: [sighs] [pause] No, probably not. But I always recognize that it’s the way that I operate in a class.

THERAPIST: Okay. What does it look like?

CLIENT: Um… [pause] I usually feel like I want to figure out… and usually it doesn’t take long. It’s like something that I’m feeling unclear about.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And recognizing, okay, this is an opportunity for me to go spend time, office hours, get to know this person. Here’s my concern, we’ve got a relationship, and now I feel comfortable, and you know.

THERAPIST: So your wanting to kind of connect with the people who teach you is a way to feel comfortable?

CLIENT: Hm. Is it that? Maybe. You know, I’m just going to say this because the thought came to my mind because we were talking about this, but is it to make sure that they like me?

THERAPIST: Yeah, there’s some shame here I think.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: Like shame that you need that.

CLIENT: That I need the help?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Because I don’t know if you need the help, I think you just need the connection. I mean, the connection comes in the guise that you need the help.

CLIENT: Mm hm, mm hm.

THERAPIST: You know. But it’s almost like you’re ashamed of wanting to be connected.

CLIENT: Am I ashamed of that?

THERAPIST: Or how you want to be connected.

CLIENT: It might be. Or it’s how other people are going to perceive that I’m running around having these connections or whatever, I don’t know. [00:16:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah. There that is again. What’s that about for you?

CLIENT: Hm. Just, you know, the thing that ignited… or touched on it, maybe that third rail is that constant that’s always been there. It’s like needing, that deep needing to be liked. You know, accepted.

THERAPIST: And how do you know when you are?

CLIENT: Oh God. I don’t know if I ever am. That’s the exhausting part of all of that. It’s like how do I know I’m ever… it’s like you set out all these… you know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I see how I’ve done that kind of thing in relationships, you know, marriage relationship.

THERAPIST: Right. Because in some ways this kind of echoes all the family stuff and your relationship with your wife.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: But I guess one of the things that just kind of popped for me is, why are you not enough? I mean, I perceive you as a very likeable person, you know, without really having to try. I mean, you might feel like you have to try, I don’t know if that’s actually true. And I wonder why you think you have to work so hard to connect with other people.

CLIENT: [pause] I’m not sure that I’ve ever had to really think about that question. I think it’s just always been there, that’s just who I am kind of thing.

THERAPIST: How will that play out with your clients?

CLIENT: [chuckles] Yeah, that’s a good question. Yeah. And I’m sure that it’s going to be like every other story in my life, that, you know, you have to love me. You have to like me. I’ll be devastated if you don’t like me. [00:18:00]

THERAPIST: Well, I mean, you sort of [unclear] yourself. But I think it’s pretty painful, because it’s such a long theme.

CLIENT: Yeah. Mm hm. Yeah. And I recognize even though it’s like… uuuuh… I can’t point to specific examples, but it’s like the amount of trouble or situations that I’ve got into in my life because of this. You know, it’s like…

THERAPIST: Like the fiancé backing…

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. That’s probably the… you know, the best example, but…

THERAPIST: But what if you’re missing it, and what if you’re actually really likeable and easily acceptable? More often than not. You know, in some ways you’re using the framework of your family and your marriage—which makes sense, I mean, these are huge things—as your framework of relating to everything. But I wonder if that is the case. I mean, what if you just are? What if you really actually don’t have to work at it, at least outside of home?

CLIENT: Well, I think that… [pause] I think that there’s a part of me, whatever that percentage is, that really knows that.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, and I know that from experience.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, that experience of being in high school, and in college, and being a teacher. But there’s been this break where… you know, there’s been this 13-year break, 14-year break, where I’ve been kind of on my own.

THERAPIST: Okay. Through the marriage?

CLIENT: Through the marriage, through my job choice.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, kind of the sole… I’ve been… it’s been me and another guy working. [00:20:00]

THERAPIST: But why would what you know to be true simply cease to be because you changed careers? You know, why would you…

CLIENT: Yeah. Because I’m not getting that reinforcement.

THERAPIST: But how do you know when you get the reinforcement? Right. So how do you know when someone likes you?

CLIENT: I think it’s just that connection, it’s that intuitive connection of being with people.

THERAPIST: But it’s not enough?

CLIENT: [whisper:] It’s not enough?

THERAPIST: It’s not enough to heal you.

CLIENT: Well, no. Because I think ultimately underneath all of it is the one person that has… that doesn’t like me.

THERAPIST: Is?

CLIENT: Me. [laughs]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know, and I had that kind of realization, it’s like, “Oh yeah.” For a while I had done the practice of like trying to look at myself in the mirror and say some kind of a positive thing to me, you know, as I’m walking by.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And I tried that for a while, and it was an arduous task.

THERAPIST: And why was it difficult you think?

CLIENT: Uh… You know, I think it’s just too many years of like not liking the image looking back.

THERAPIST: Physically?

CLIENT: Mm… probably physically. Yeah, it might be deeper than that. I mean, there maybe have been times when it was like not liking the character as well. But yeah, you know, I recognize that I’m in that pattern again. It’s like, yeah, can I walk past a mirror and not… It’s like, “Oh my God, really? This is the message you send yourself every time you walk past a mirror? That’s really fascinating.”

THERAPIST: And what parts of yourself are you picking apart? [00:22:00]

CLIENT: Ah… I don’t know. [pause] That’s a good question, I’m not sure… You know, it’s like those pictures that… anorexics looking in the mirror.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And what do they see when they’re looking in the mirror?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: It’s like… I think I started to… It’s like the mirror, and now seeing the images on the videotapes of counseling sessions.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I’m like…

THERAPIST: What do you mean?

CLIENT: It’s like, “Oh, here’s that… that same person is in both of those images.” It’s like… you know.

THERAPIST: And that doesn’t answer the question.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: Of what do you see.

CLIENT: I’m trying to get at it. It’s the… [pause] Yeah. You know, when I look at that image I’m not seeing the image that I think other people perceive.

THERAPIST: Okay. So you think that other people perceive sort of a more positive image of you.

CLIENT: More positive image, maybe more self-confident, more…

THERAPIST: Yeah. But that’s part of you too. Right? You know, you brought up something in the first session and we haven’t really talked about it. You sort of talked a bit about a physical deformity.

CLIENT: Right, right, right.

THERAPIST: How much of that do you think plays into your self-image?

CLIENT: You know, I think it’s probably really huge. I think that it’s probably one of those things that’s been there.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit more about it?

CLIENT: The actual physical-ness of it?

THERAPIST: A bit, and about how it’s impacted you.

CLIENT: Well, I think that the… what I’ve been able to discover on my own…

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:24:00]

CLIENT: … because this is something that we don’t talk about.

THERAPIST: Sure. And this is something you were born with?

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So it’s not necessarily that rare, but it’s… it’s a… a slight… it’s a deformity where part of the foreskin kind of grows…

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: … together and it has to be like physically… you have to get in there and do a little…

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: … minor surgery.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Um… Not that it’s… you know, not that that’s terrible…

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: … but, you know, it definitely puts you in a place of like, okay, when I’m in a locker room experience…

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: … it’s like one of these things… [laughs] … like the other…

THERAPIST: Right. And do you remember kind of being in a locker room…

CLIENT: Oh gosh, yeah, there was…

THERAPIST: … and either feeling like you were gonna be stared at or being teased about it?

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think that I… like I ran away from those experiences.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I didn’t walk away from those experiences.

THERAPIST: Well, it would be pretty terrifying.

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Boys can be pretty cruel.

CLIENT: Oh, exactly.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I think that… I didn’t even have to go there, because I was in that situation with like fifth grade basketball.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know. Now I think back about it, it’s like, “Fifth grade basketball? Why did we need to take showers after practice for fifth grade basketball?”

THERAPIST: That’s a good point.

CLIENT: Then I started to think about who the coach was.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: And I’m like, “Oh.” And we were in a parochial grade school. Oh. This wasn’t about… And I’m like, “Oh, how sick is all of this?” [laughter] I’m like, okay. So I don’t even want to go there.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But there was another kid who was probably similar. [00:26:00]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know, in terms of, you know, what we were dealing with.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And it’s like there was… it’s like I didn’t have to be the one getting picked on because he was there, and it was like I figured out ways not to be. And I was out of sports. And I avoided sports…

THERAPIST: Because of it.

CLIENT: … because of that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I had made it all the way through my high school except for the last quarter of my senior year. I figured out how to finagle my hometown family doctor to give me medical excuses out of PE.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But he finally wouldn’t sign them anymore my senior year.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And… No, it was the first semester of my senior year, I had to take PE. And so I figured out how to like get around the whole shower thing the first quarter, and then ended up figuring out how to talk my industrial arts teacher into…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I came out of a study hall one time, and I was down and helping out… I was just waiting to talk to him, and I was working with this special ed student that he had in class, and I was helping him put whatever project he was working on together. And finally… I had been in there the whole period, I was just killing time, and the teacher says, “Robert, what are you doing here?” It’s like, “I was just trying to get a pass out of study hall.” He said, “Well, I’ll get you out of study hall all the time if you want to come down here and work with this kid.”

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: And I was… This all works because I was skipping out of PE, is what I was doing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And he says, “Well, I’ll get you out of PE.” He was a coach.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:28:00]

CLIENT: So all he did is walk down to the PE department, he says, “I’m taking Collins, he’s going to work with me.” It’s like there was no paperwork done, it was just like, [blows].

THERAPIST: But that is such a powerfully terrifying experience, that you had to avoid gym… or sports…

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: … you know, your whole life so you weren’t bullied or teased or…

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And this is… You know, I get how huge this issue has been for me.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it’s like it’s not the first time that we’ve marched up to the precipice of dealing with this. But, you know, it’s huge.

THERAPIST: How did it impact dating and romantic relationships?

CLIENT: Oh. [laughs] I love this… I love this vignette, so.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Libby Howser. I am like biggest crush in the world on…

THERAPIST: I don’t think I’m familiar with her.

CLIENT: Well.

THERAPIST: I’m going to Google her when you go.

CLIENT: Go ahead.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I’ve tried, so you can’t find her.

THERAPIST: Okay. [laughter] She’s no one famous, then.

CLIENT: Oh, she was pretty famous, but…

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: … I didn’t realize how famous she was. But yeah, she was new to the school my sophomore year and I just had the biggest crush on her.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Like she sat right behind me in German class, it was my favorite class.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know the scene. So finally I think my senior year conditions work out, we’re in the play together or something. And I get this opportunity to… we’re going to go on a date or something. So I go over to pick her up at her house, I’m just thrilled about this, and get over there, and her mom and her boyfriend are going out.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So it’s like nobody else at the house. We were going to go to a movie or something, and it’s like… and Libby’s like, “Why don’t we just stay here?”

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [00:30:00]

CLIENT: So, you know, we start making out on the coach. And then we continue to make out on the couch, and we’re just making out on the couch, just kissing and making out on the couch. Finally she goes, “I think it’s time for you to go home now.” And I was just like, “What is this all about?”

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, it’s like, “Okay.” And that was pretty much it. [laughs] Well, come to find out later… so this was my senior year, and the summer of my senior year I’m going with a friend, we’re sharing a ride, we’re working at the same little manufacturing plant together, and he’s like filling me in that Libby Howser was known by almost all of the guys in the senior class. You know, she had made the rounds. And he was just laughing. He’s like, “Wow. So you didn’t make it with Libby Howser? So there’s one guy in the senior class she didn’t make it with!” [laughs]

THERAPIST: But how is it that you kind of take that as sort of a slam against your masculinity?

CLIENT: No, I don’t necessar[ily]…

THERAPIST: Are you sure?

CLIENT: I don’t necessarily see it as a slam as much as it was… there’s certainly the naïveté. But I also recognize the grip of… you know, it’s like I’m not gonna… I’m not even going there, because we can’t go there.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, this is… Um, yeah.

THERAPIST: Do you think you could have gone there if wanted to?

CLIENT: Well, eventually I did.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I just wasn’t prepared at that time.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And really at that point in time I had no idea that… you know, I was that naïve that I had no idea that she was… [chuckles] … that worldly of a girl. [laughs]

THERAPIST: Well, and do we know if she was that worldly of a girl, or do we know what they said?

CLIENT: Mmm… that’s true. I don’t know this for a fact. [00:32:00]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. And she liked you.

CLIENT: She liked me. And she signed my yearbook.

THERAPIST: And she went out with you, invited you to her house.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. And… Yeah. And I think that there may have been, you know, something there, but…

THERAPIST: Like attraction.

CLIENT: Could be.

THERAPIST: Uh…

CLIENT: But she…

THERAPIST: Um, you know, Seamus, I don’t think she would have invited you in her house…

CLIENT: Well…

THERAPIST: … and proceeded to continue making out with you to kill time.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. No, but… Yeah. It’s…

THERAPIST: Is that hard to accept? And quite frankly, maybe she really liked you. Which is why she maybe said, “Let’s not.”

CLIENT: Mmmm…

THERAPIST: You know. Or maybe she didn’t want to go any further.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: The point is, I think, you know, it’s sort of like the initial reaction to John Carlson’s compliment is the same. The part that gets missed, right, or gets glossed over, is the positive part of the message. She liked you.

CLIENT: Mm, yeah.

THERAPIST: Felt comfortable enough to invite you into her house and make out with you.

CLIENT: Yeah. [pause] Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you felt confident enough to do it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. [pause] Yeah.

THERAPIST: But that part doesn’t stick as much.

CLIENT: No, probably not. You know, you probably… Yeah. [pause] I just started working with Prezi. Have you done anything with Prezi?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Anyway, I’m just thinking about the fact that… It’s really cool. You have the ability to zoom in and out. I mean, it’s really kinda cool.

THERAPIST: Okay. [00:34:00]

CLIENT: But I’m thinking about, you know, you can kind of put this big message up here. And then if you put this liiiiitle tiny message way back here…

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: … you know, on the next screen it appears to be zooming up at you.

THERAPIST: And what’s the message that you [overtalk].

CLIENT: Oh, I’m just saying it’s like the big messages that I put in the big circles are, you know, “Not Good Enough…”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: “… I’m a Loser,” whatever. And the liiiitle message way back there is, you know, “Might be somebody that maybe somebody likes.” [laughs]

THERAPIST: Yes. But you know what, but your behavior when you’re not looking, there is confidence there. Because you continue to do things and challenge yourself in new ways. So you did have romantic relationships, you did go on to have romantic relationships in college.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And…

CLIENT: And I did… you know, and I did in high school too.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know. It’s kind of like… Yeah.

THERAPIST: And did it ever cause any sexual problems?

CLIENT: [sighs] No. You know, not really. I mean… But, you know, it is… it has been the… [pause] Yeah, it has been the defining… it has been the defining element of who I am.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Say more about that. That’s a powerful statement.

CLIENT: Um… Yeah, you know, and I think it’s probably self… it’s been the self-identifying, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s one of those kinda things, it’s like that standard by which all men in America are judged by.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And it’s like, wow, this is really huge. It’s like… So you get it at that level. It’s like at the societal level. It’s like, [expiration]. [00:36:00]

THERAPIST: Sure. The slam against masculinity, you’re not man, or not man enough.

CLIENT: Right, yeah.

THERAPIST: Or this sort of painful thing that you’ve always had to hide.

CLIENT: And then it’s like… then when you’re like in the… you know, the whole adolescent scene…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: … and the whole judging yourself against porn stars.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it’s like, nobody matches those standards. But then it’s like, [expiration], I can’t even go there. You know, so you’ve got that. [laughs]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean, on a… You laugh, even though it’s painful. But I’m imagining how painful that experience could be, and how it can follow you. But there’s still a part of you that proceeded enough to have multiple romantic relationships, to get married, to have children.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Right. And so even though you have this doubt that you carry with you, or this kind of… you know, this sense of not belonging or needing, you still are able to… And it’s still painful. I mean, I’m not diminishing that. But I guess what I’m saying is, that’s the part, this kind of old message, this thing that you hold within you, [all while? 37:18] you don’t pay active attention to all the things you’re capable of…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: … to all the ways that… I mean, all these other people who see these positive things in you and respond to you so well can’t be wrong. Right? So I wonder if it’s that part of you, these messages you got about yourself, if it’s those messages that are wrong because you were sort of misplaced in the environments that you were in. [pause] Right? It’s a mismatch.

CLIENT: Misplaced. Say that again?

THERAPIST: A mismatch. Right. And so, you know, you were born into this… your family…

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: … but in some ways you were mismatched with them.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Right. If you were born into a family of two teachers you would have been their ideal son. Right.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:38:00]

THERAPIST: But, you know, I almost got the sense from what you describe that your parents never quite really got you in the way that you needed to be understood. Right. And then we sort of move forward. And then, you know, you become committed to a woman who sort of didn’t get who you were becoming…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: … which was painful for you. Selecting, you know, somebody who…

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And then of course you sort of blame yourself. But these are really old scripts.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Painful scripts.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That do have a place. I mean, I’m not saying that they don’t have some place. But I’m saying, that is what you’re paying the most attention to in the dark.

CLIENT: Mm hm, mm hm.

THERAPIST: But, you know, you pay minimal attention to the good stuff. Right?

CLIENT: Yeah, and I think that there’s… There is kind of like that sense, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: As you’re talking about that it’s like I’m hearing that, or feeling that, “Yeah, but if you really knew who I was…

THERAPIST: Then what?

CLIENT: … you wouldn’t like me.

THERAPIST: So what is it that you think that I would not like?

CLIENT: [sighs] And again, I think it goes back, you know, to those older scripts.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And to that sense…

THERAPIST: So what is it, Seamus?

CLIENT: And to that sense that from early on we did not talk about this condition.

THERAPIST: Right. And that’s where shame comes from.

CLIENT: Of course.

THERAPIST: Yes. Because any time…

CLIENT: So there must be something terribly wrong with me that we wouldn’t talk about this.

THERAPIST: But what if it was because they didn’t know what to say or how to talk about it?

CLIENT: Well, of course that’s what it was.

THERAPIST: Well, right. But see, that’s the part where you’re stuck.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right? You know, so in my human sexuality class I always like to ask the question, “How many of your parents regularly talk to you about sex?” And out of a class of 35, two or three people raise their hands. Because we can’t talk about it and don’t talk about it, right.

CLIENT: No, of course.

THERAPIST: And so of course when you catch your six year old masturbating, as most of them do, right, because that’s normal, they’re just… like they explore their elbow…

CLIENT: Right. [00:40:00]

THERAPIST: … they explore their genitalia, it feels good. And then the parent goes, “Oh my God, that’s so horrible,” and the kid learned body shame, right?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: So you learned it in this really powerful, powerful way…

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: … which kind of enhanced all these negative messages about you.

CLIENT: Mm hm, mm hm.

THERAPIST: But it’s a broken script because it’s not accurate. It’s not accurate.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think at the…

THERAPIST: It was never accurate.

CLIENT: No. No. And I think that, you know, there have been times and places… You know, really, I’ve gotten to this place of being able to forgive my parents for that.

THERAPIST: Yeah, but what about you?

CLIENT: [sighs] Yeah, I’m not… I’m not so sure… Yeah, because it’s still there. It’s obviously still there.

THERAPIST: How did you raise your kids differently than what you were raised?

CLIENT: [pause] Well, I think that we did consciously try.

THERAPIST: What did you do?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Honest assessment.

CLIENT: [long pause] I do remember having some conversations with… you know, especially the boys.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So I feel like maybe not all that much.

THERAPIST: Not just about sex though. Relationally. What did you do differently…

CLIENT: Oh, relationally…

THERAPIST: … than how you were raised?

CLIENT: I really think that I tried to interact a lot more with the kids. You know, I tried to be there, I tried to, you know, do the rough house kind of thing…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: … and play and…

THERAPIST: Did you enjoy them?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What did you enjoy about it? [00:42:00]

CLIENT: Having the relationship, you know. I feel like… Yeah, I do feel like there is that bond.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know, I have an individual bond with each one of these kids, and a relationship. Yeah, and there’s a closeness there. You know, it’s like… So I go, “Yay me,” because I feel like I was able to get that… you know, I’m able to be there.

THERAPIST: I hear a ‘but’ in there.

CLIENT: Mmmm… Well, maybe… I mean, maybe there’s always a-little-bit-more-you-could-have-done kind of thing.

THERAPIST: That’s always the case.

CLIENT: Yeah. But for the most part I feel like… ummm… It’s different. It’s different from the way that my folks raised me.

THERAPIST: Because?

CLIENT: I can get on the phone and talk with them. You know, when they call me they want to talk to me. They ask my advice on things. You know, it’s like…

THERAPIST: So even though they’re all out of the house they are connected to you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: That’s huge. That’s huge.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And… but you did that.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Mm hm. Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Where is your embracement—if that’s a word—of that?

CLIENT: [drums fingers on desk/chair] Yeah, I see that. Yeah, I see that I’m maybe not quite embracing that as much as I…

THERAPIST: You know…

CLIENT: And I recognized it. I don’t know.

THERAPIST: You know, my dad was a therapist…

CLIENT: Uh huh. [00:44:00]

THERAPIST: … and a teacher. And we were very close. He passed away in 2006. And I think one of the great things about my dad is I knew him kind of as a little girl and my daddy, but then I knew him as a man, and his faults, and all his impatience, you know.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And we had a really close relationship. A friendship as well as, you know, he was my dad, right. And despite my knowing a lot of his flaws, and him definitely knowing mine, right, that just allowed me to see him as a human being.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Not a perfect human being, but a human being. So knowing that he was vulnerable.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Right. Knowing that he, you know, got angry at times, or, you know, got sad—I remember the first time he ever cried, my mother’s father had passed away, I’d never seen that before, I was ten—and sort of knowing him as a human being really sort of allows me, even as a middle-aged woman, to have internalized the relationship. And it’s just with me all the time.

CLIENT: Mm hm, mm hm.

THERAPIST: Right. So even though he’s not here, I carry it with me because we had that bond.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Right. And it sounds like you tried to really work to have a bond with your children.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Right. Why are you not embracing that? That’s something to be proud of. I mean, in some ways that’s who you are. You didn’t come from that. My dad didn’t either. His parents were crazy, okay.

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: You know, and abusive people. And he worked hard to do it differently.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you worked really hard to do it differently. And it pays you back, because you can see that your kids still want to be connected to you even though they’re off at college.

CLIENT: Mm hm, mm hm.

THERAPIST: Does that not have huge impact for you?

CLIENT: [pause] Hm. [pause] I’m not exactly sure if I’m understanding the question. And I’m also not exactly sure I’m understanding, you know, like what you’re seeing in terms that makes you feel like I’m not… I’m not recognizing that relationship. [00:46:00]

THERAPIST: I guess what I’m saying is you are, um, continually hurt by what you are not, and not sort of embracing all the good things that you are.

CLIENT: Oh, I see. Mm.

THERAPIST: Right. And when you make human beings, and bring them into the world, and invest time and energy into them, and love them, and do the best you can, and talk to them, and, you know, change things about your background and your upbringing that you didn’t like. And I remember you telling me you actively tried to be more physically affectionate with your kids than you got, right.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Ain’t no parent in the world perfect. But you made an active effort to really remain connected. And you still do, driving up to go see…

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: … performances and whatever, when you could easily not. Right? I guess I’m saying, that’s more of the mark of who you are…

CLIENT: Mm hm, mm hm.

THERAPIST: … than who you are not.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: It’s not commonplace, Seamus.

CLIENT: Mm. Yeah. I mean, it’s kind of an interesting… it’s kind of an interesting place, being inside of my head, because it’s like I do get it. You know, it’s like I’m able to kind of pull back, and I’m able to see, it’s like, you know, kind of both of those things. It’s like I see the brokenness…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: … but at the same time it’s like I can also see the… you know, the pretty self-confident, you know, guy.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know, I can see both of those kinda things. And I recognize that at different times, you know, different… you know, they’re both there…

THERAPIST: They’re both there.

CLIENT: … but at different times one is a little bit more dominant than the other. [00:48:00]

THERAPIST: Yes. Or even when you are feeling confident and behaving confidently this little piece still nags at you.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Like a tag on your sweater.

CLIENT: You know… and I’m sure it’s like one of those viral videos that almost everybody’s seen. So you’ve probably seen it as well. But the guy who’s out there, the motivational speaker who’s out there who has no arms and no legs.

THERAPIST: No, I haven’t seen that.

CLIENT: And he has what appears to be part of like his foot.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So, I mean, literally the guy is a weevil.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know. And he is just like this incredible…

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: … motivational speaker. And he’s talking… this video, he’s talking to this group of kids, high school kids.

THERAPIST: Uh uh.

CLIENT: And, you know, and it’s just like, okay, this guy is clearly coming from a place of like… you know. And he is just… he doesn’t have any disabilities. You know, he doesn’t have… You know, it’s just like…

THERAPIST: Or that’s what he shows. [pause] You show… we all show a different face. You can’t compare how you feel inside to how somebody else looks on the outside.

CLIENT: Say that again.

THERAPIST: Okay. So you say he’s… you know, he’s up there, he’s so positive. I almost hear, you know, “Why can’t I be more positive,” or whatever. But that’s what he shows the world. We don’t know what’s going on inside of him, we only know his account of it. Just like for you nobody knowing, walking around…

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: … you know, you appear to be a very confident guy…

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: … a smart man. Nobody would know.

CLIENT: Yeah. So… Yeah. And I guess what I’m saying with that video…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: … it’s kind of like… It’s like, yeah, I don’t know what this guy feels like on the inside.

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:50:00]

CLIENT: And I don’t know what his story is either. But, you know, could I get to that place?

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Could I get to that place of like, whatever? You know, whatever the… whatever the limitation, whatever… You know, it’s like this is just a circumstance of your life. — Whatever.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know. Can you just… can you capitalize on that? You know, there are times that I recognize that who I am…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: … in large part is because of…

THERAPIST: Sure. Sure. And in some ways… You know, I guess what I hope for you, and what I hope that you gain from our work together, is some sense of healing from this…

CLIENT: Mm hm, mm hm.

THERAPIST: … or kind of quieting this script that’s been…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: … you know, with you so long. Because you’re going to take all of this, all of who you are, and you’re going to channel it into your work with people. Right. And in some ways you’re well suited, because you want to connect with people, right.

CLIENT: Mm hm, mm hm.

THERAPIST: And part of having to suffer from this issue, and from all these negative messages…

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: … is you can touch someone’s life and really understand…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: … how somebody can go through these things.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: And that is a very powerful thing. I always tell my students, you never want to go to a counselor who hasn’t been through anything, right. But you can channel that. But you gotta do it in a way for you…

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: … given who you are, that’s very genuine, right…

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: … and not hypocritical. And so healing this part of you that continues to…

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: … hurt, or be so concerned about what other people think, instead of seeing the true data more often than not that you’re just likeable because you’re you. People want to connect with you. Your teachers like to have you in their classes. I would like to have you in my class. You’re smart, you get it, you dig deeper. What teacher wouldn’t want that?

CLIENT: Exactly, yeah. [52:10]

THERAPIST: You know. And so I think kind of looking at what is actual, instead of… you know, what you feel is important, and it is valid, and it comes from a place. I mean, the environment has taught you some things about yourself. But it’s also taught you a lot of positive things about yourself too…

CLIENT: Mm hm. Mm hm, mm hm.

THERAPIST: … that I think you take in and you just kind of go, “That’s nice.” You know?

CLIENT: Mm hm. Mm hm, mm hm.

THERAPIST: You say, “That’s nice,” instead of going, “Wow! That’s really cool. Look at this, look at me. Look at the things I’ve done. I still hurt over here and here and here. But wow, I’m a good dad!” Right?

CLIENT: Mm hm, mm hm.

THERAPIST: “I’m a good student. I can just decide, oh, I’m going to go in counseling, and I’m going to go do this. And I’m going to do this and make it a success.” And I think that’s equally… that’s more important in some ways…

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: … embracing that truth.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. No, I see that. I see that, yeah. Figuring out a way to allow those things in…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: … and have a home as well. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yes. That part I’m hoping for you makes up the primary part of your identity.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: You know. The other stuff’s important because it makes you a sensitive aware human being to other people’s pain. And you’ll never take that for granted…

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: … that you will see you, who let you into their lives. And I think that’s important. But it doesn’t have to drive you anymore.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: And it doesn’t have to diminish your joy for all of the things that you are and have become.

CLIENT: Mm hm, mm hm. Mm hm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can sit with that for a while.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Sit for that… you know, with that till next week.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Well, do you have class tonight? [00:54:00]

CLIENT: Well, as it turns out I get to go be counseled again.

THERAPIST: You do?

CLIENT: Right now.

THERAPIST: [laughter] What is… is this your… Oh, is this 810, is that the class? Oh yeah, okay.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, have fun.

CLIENT: We’re gonna try it. So…

THERAPIST: This is the… That’s a great class. It’s a fun class.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And then you get to do it with your classmate, right?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Two of them.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Because there’s an odd number.

THERAPIST: Okay, so you’re doing three in one group.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: So have a till next week.

THERAPIST: Well, have fun.

CLIENT: Same time, same bat channel.

THERAPIST: Yeah, absolutely. Hopefully there will be no storm. Okay, take care.

CLIENT: Buh-bye.

THERAPIST: Buh-bye.

END TRANSCRIPT