TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Sorry I'm late.

CLIENT: Really? It's okay. I was late. So when I'm late I don't get extra time. But when you're late I get extra time. (PAUSE) It's so hard.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:00:57)

(PAUSE) [00:01:00]

CLIENT: I guess (inaudible at 00:01:09) in sharing with you at the current moment.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: How come?

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

(PAUSE) [00:02:00]

CLIENT: I think it would be easier if... (PAUSE) I don't know. If you had like obvious flaws. I'm getting tired of idealizing you.

THERAPIST: Hmm. (PAUSE) (inaudible at 00:02:41) flaws don't seem so subtle to me. But I know what you mean (inaudible at 00:02:45)

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah. It helps to hear that.

(PAUSE) [00:03:00]

CLIENT: I had this new fantasy where we meet by chance in... (PAUSE) ...I want to say Morocco and our families don't exist or like they died or it's impossible to get to them. (PAUSE) And there's like a, I don't know, sometimes of night time cafe. [00:04:03]

There's like a pianist and a fire and I'm doing something irresistibly... Whatever. Like playing chess or something. Irresistibly focused, I guess, or reading or connecting with the bartender. And you walk in and... It's not happening now. It's happening years and years and years from now and... (PAUSE) I can't see what... I can't figure out what you're wearing. [00:05:05]

It would help if you wore other types of clothes here so that I could see your repertoire. It's not really helping the diversity of the fantasies.

THERAPIST: Sorry about that.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: But you're wearing something and you like wait for my chess game to be over and come and sit across from me much like you are now. And you, we don't need to speak.

(PAUSE) [00:06:00]

CLIENT: We just know and... (PAUSE) We leave while holding hands and go to some, one of our rooms and have passionate and... (PAUSE) ...deep sex and then we talk for days and days and days, forever. [00:07:09]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: And it's like dusty and there are intoxicating smells, good and bad and we both know the language. I don't know. There's something like dangerous happening outside. [00:08:03]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: But we're safe.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: It reminds me a little bit of Casablanca.

CLIENT: I think it is Casablanca. [00:08:59]

I'm remembering scenes from Casablanca and I don't know why. It's funny that you picked up on that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. You mentioned the bar (inaudible at 00:09:17)

CLIENT: And the piano.

THERAPIST: Yes. (inaudible at 00:09:31)

CLIENT: Casablanca is in Morocco. (PAUSE) Yeah. (LAUGHTER) I think it... I think my fantasy could have a lot of overlaps with Casablanca.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: A dangerous grumbling outside.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:10:01]

THERAPIST: A long time in the future, meaning like they have a history. But...

CLIENT: Mm hmm. And like you show up and I think you try to talk to me and I'm just like, "I've already said everything I need to say. (PAUSE) I don't want to talk anymore."

(PAUSE) [00:11:00]

THERAPIST: I mean, really. What the hell is this? The same office, the same goddamn clothes, more talking. I mean, really. [00:12:07]

CLIENT: I think there's a lot here that's not always the same. The energy changes. The content changes sort of that way.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: True but I... And go ahead but I guess I wonder if you're also wanting to not be frustrated or fed up and some ways you seemed to be a minute ago. [00:13:01]

CLIENT: Yeah. I want to like... (PAUSE) I want to be able to visualize or understand where we're going and the next phase and like usher myself into the next phase but I'm not there. I feel in between and the fact that I'm looking for a next phase in the first place indicate something too, I think. Like why can't it just be (inaudible at 00:13:57).

(PAUSE) [00:14:00]

CLIENT: But it feels different (inaudible at 00:14:05) Do you wear contacts?

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: You answered. (PAUSE) (inaudible at 00:14:35) (PAUSE) (inaudible at 00:14:55)

THERAPIST: Did you ask me that question before? [00:14:59]

CLIENT: Uh huh.

THERAPIST: I don't know.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I think I read you my dad's speech.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Um...

(PAUSE) [00:16:00]

THERAPIST: Well, I think... (PAUSE) ...you want to bring me a little more into your life and what it's like in your family, I think.

CLIENT: Yeah. It felt really important to share it with you but I don't know why it did.

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

(PAUSE) [00:17:00]

CLIENT: I think it's more than that. I think I wanted you to know what it's like to be loved by me... (PAUSE) ...like other than what it's like here through my words and actions.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Well, that's lovely.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah. It is lovely. [00:18:03]

It also feels like... (PAUSE) I don't know. I'm just trying to tempt you or impress you or make you feel different or more.

THERAPIST: Like seduce me in some way? Not... I don't mean a sexual seduction but in this way (inaudible at 00:18:31)

CLIENT: Yes. I guess I was proud of it... (PAUSE) ...when you talked about it before.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:19:00]

THERAPIST: Do you feel a bit sad on your own?

CLIENT: Mm hmm.

(PAUSE) [00:20:00]

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Do you feel heartbreak?

CLIENT: No. Not like anymore usual. (PAUSE) I think it's hard for me to imagine (inaudible at 00:20:45) (PAUSE) Does that make sense? It's not as bad as it sounds. [00:21:03]

THERAPIST: I don't seem to get it.

CLIENT: Like I feel like I used up all the things that are good and that I...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:21:19) Yeah.

CLIENT: That I am the parent source of those good things. Or like maybe there are in theory but it's kind of like a lot of work to get them to open up. (PAUSE) And like what do you do?

(PAUSE) [00:22:00]

CLIENT: I feel stuck. Things that make me feel unstuck are my work, which is like a really love thing these days...

THERAPIST: Good.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah (inaudible at 00:22:41) feels so fleeting compared to all of the other years.

(PAUSE) [00:23:00]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

(PAUSE) [00:24:00]

THERAPIST: I think you may have hope that... (PAUSE) Maybe this is partly stirred up by having to understand it together. But that something in our relationship was going to help, not replace, but keep alive or keep you connected to something about being in your family that felt different after you got married. [00:25:11]

CLIENT: It's not the same. I don't know if I hoped that it was going to be or that I hope that it is but...

THERAPIST: What's not the same?

CLIENT: The sense of... The connection that I feel in my family and the connection I feel here. They're different in obvious ways. They're... (PAUSE) This connection feels like another chapter, like... (PAUSE) adult. [00:26:01]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I think I also stigmatized our relationship too. I... (PAUSE) When I'm like in my own world thinking that being here in this and coming in so often... I really like it. It fits me right now. But when I think about this in the context of like the rest of the world, I guess I feel badly about it like embarrassed or ashamed and like I'm categorized with a group of people that... [00:27:05]

I don't know. (inaudible at 00:27:15) (PAUSE) I don't know. In a group that I don't belong in. But... (PAUSE) I do belong in a group too. (PAUSE) I guess I don't want to be in any group.

(PAUSE) [00:28:00]

THERAPIST: Well, I think you stigmatized some of the feelings you have that make you feel part of that group that you have constructed. (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: Mm hmm.

THERAPIST: And also... (PAUSE) (inaudible at 00:28:19)

CLIENT: Yeah and the feeling of going crazy without a control. (PAUSE) Also, like I'm very proud of loving you. I don't think I should stigmatize it at all but I do. Like I'm not so relatable. [00:29:07]

But it's okay. (inaudible at 00:29:17) outside of Jeremy (ph) and myself about the nature of our relationship and that helps it to feel, helps me to feel less stigmatized by me.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: How had you felt stigmatized or...

CLIENT: Well, I guess it's like... I don't know. Maybe it's kind of sad. [00:30:07]

Like where there was connections in my normal life and like why I need to come here for the connections. (PAUSE) And also like people are really private. Most people can't imagine opening up to the extent that I've opened up here in some ways. (PAUSE) But I can.

(PAUSE) [00:31:00]

CLIENT: I still think there are feelings that don't come out here. I don't mean to say that I've opened up all the time in all ways.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: But I have in some ways.

THERAPIST: Mm hmm. Absolutely. (PAUSE) Which ones are missing?

(PAUSE) [00:32:00]

CLIENT: Like the feeling of not being able to imagine living anymore here. But it's kind of here right now. Sometimes it really feels debilitating and dark and scary. It doesn't feel that way right now. I think because when I don't think about it, things are fine. Things can feel really great.

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:32:51)

(PAUSE) [00:33:00]

CLIENT: I don't know. The whole listening aspect of how I interact with the world doesn't get used here. (inaudible at 00:33:21)

THERAPIST: I think I can see it some in the way that you sort of (inaudible at 00:33:37) point of view. I guess it's not quite the same.

CLIENT: Or how I... You know how I ask questions about you or that concern you.

(PAUSE) [00:34:00]

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:34:41) sometimes come down here...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:34:53)

CLIENT: Mm hmm.

(PAUSE) [00:35:00]

CLIENT: Yeah and in other ways too but not in the same level outside... (PAUSE) ...or inside. (PAUSE) I wonder what you think your obvious flaws are.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Well, first of all, how much time do you have?

CLIENT: I have noticed self deprecating-ness throughout the last nine months. [00:36:05]

I have also noticed that you, a couple of times have said that you're bad at giving practical advice. I don't really see that as a flaw because I don't really think you would want to be in the business of doing that. But maybe... (PAUSE) And for all the ways in which you are pretty tough with me, you also are extremely sensitive and sometimes tiptoe around me.

(PAUSE) [00:37:00]

CLIENT: Like don't really make fun of me.

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) Yeah. You don't really like push me around. I think actually you do but only in the way that it feels like I'm being pushed around when I feel heartbroken or like you're withholding. You know, if (inaudible at 00:37:45)

(PAUSE) [00:38:00]

THERAPIST: I'm not pushing you around in any other kinds of ways.

CLIENT: Right. (PAUSE) I think that's a big part of my relationship with my loved ones.

THERAPIST: Oh. They do that?

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) My dad and my brother and Jeremy and Jeremy's dad have started... I think I'm a really good sport and I think I push back and I'm just kind of strange like which you wouldn't know too much about because I'm not that strange here but... (inaudible at 00:38:57) [00:39:01]

THERAPIST: Those all seem to be men too.

CLIENT: Mm hmm. Lots of other men too. High school or... Just the important ones. Yeah, women kind of aren't that fun in that way. I am not that interested in women except in a very specific way which is something I feel like I'm lacking right now. Like the ability to process verbally and love and nurture. I really wish I had a female friend to relate there and always available. [00:40:11]

But in general I found it much easier to deal with men.

THERAPIST: We have about five minutes.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Do you think this would be turning out really differently if you were a woman?

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I'm not exactly what you have in mind but probably yes and no.

CLIENT: Like knowing what you know about me and how I relate to women especially how I am currently relating to you.

THERAPIST: Right. I imagine some of the intensity and some of the like...

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Sex?

THERAPIST: ...feelings. I don't think so. I don't know. I mean, I don't know if you like have any history of being (inaudible at 00:41:43) drawn to women but... You haven't said anything about it I don't think and...

(PAUSE) [00:42:00]

CLIENT: I am much more turned on by naked women porn than I am naked porn. That's a data point. I could imagine being with some women sexually and really enjoy it. I am not interested at all in having a romantic relationship with a women because I think they're crazy.

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: I know they're crazy. Yeah. I think I'm probably closer to the middle of the spectrum in terms of my heterosexuality. I mean, womens' bodies are beautiful, very, very hot. [00:43:01]

So... (PAUSE) That.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Yeah. My hunch is wouldn't necessarily be (inaudible at 00:43:29) going to a female therapist. (PAUSE) But I think some of the other kinds of intensity that are also here would be there.

(PAUSE) [00:44:00]

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: I don't know. I feel like there's something else going on and I can't figure out what it is.

CLIENT: With the woman question.

THERAPIST: No, no. Like...

CLIENT: Oh. All of today?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I do too.

THERAPIST: A little bit yesterday but especially today. Like I have a feel for this sort of (inaudible at 00:44:41) what's coming next question that I think that you asked and... (PAUSE) There's some way that you seem a little more reserved or distant and maybe it's partly like... [00:45:15]

I don't know if this is right but you seem more wary or shy or like a little something about trying to draw me out or... I don't know.

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel that way. (PAUSE) One, I feel like, "Ugh. Here we go again. There was such a nice break that was also very hard." I missed you a lot. I think I'm resisting falling into the hole and like kind of annoyed about that. I'm also, I think, reacting to what, the parts of this that I might stigmatize. [00:46:11]

Like, "Well, maybe I don't love you. Maybe I don't need you. Maybe I won't come back." Somewhat rebellious against some of the feelings. And I think the other thing is wondering what's coming next and why I'm wondering that in the first place.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Why does anything need to come next? Is there something behind that?

THERAPIST: Right.

(PAUSE) [00:47:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess what I was wondering before was whether... (PAUSE) ...you have some disappointment like, not in me exactly, but in something you had hoped for here or had hoped... Not... (PAUSE) (inaudible at 00:47:49) in terms of parties. You know? Like that seems to be the sort of theme when you're dreaming and with the occasion for what you wrote for your father that you read. [00:48:05]

And I guess part of what I had in mind is that somehow coming here had a little bit to do with keeping a party going that felt like it was ending and then maybe it doesn't seem to be doing that in some way and so then you're worried about what happens after you find that out? We should stop for now. (PAUSE) We're on for tomorrow at 4:30?

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: Good. [00:49:01]

END TRANSCRIPT