TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: ...say that to me.

CLIENT: You know, being late is -

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: among, you know, the top cardinal sins.

THERAPIST: Yes, you know, my last name is Norwegian but I am sure my Norwegian heritage, if I have any, goes so far back.

CLIENT: (laughs) That’s a good point. Yeah.

THERAPIST: But I do have a time issue. So, you know, I mean African American and Norwegian somewhere.

CLIENT: We must be on time. (sound of snapping fingers)

THERAPIST: So maybe that is where I get it from. Well how are you?

CLIENT: I am good. I am good. Yeah, I had a few minutes to kind of re-collect, kind of refocus. It is like where am I at, kind of thing on the drive up.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But, yeah, I think what I feel like I took away from last week was, you know, that sense of The way I kind of reworded it or renamed it was “looking at the fictions.”

THERAPIST: Okay. Explain.

CLIENT: You know? Looking at the fictions of my life.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know? It is like kind of one of a lesson or, you know, a kind of a place where I have been with my meditation practice recently is trying to see in all the different ways that what our minds tell us, moment to moment, is pretty much all fiction. [00:01:32]

THERAPIST: Okay. Explain.

CLIENT: That if you really sit and look at the thoughts and the stuff that is going on up here. You know, it is like just being able to kind of walk around the thought, analyze what is going on with the thought. It is like if you analyze that thought as being of the past -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: that in itself is a fiction.

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: Because it is like, well, we have a memory of something -

THERAPIST: Mm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: but you survey ten people in an automobile accident -

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: you are going to have. Not saying that it didn’t happen or was unreal but it was really a fiction. It is a fictionalized version of what happened.

THERAPIST: Sure, sure.

CLIENT: And if the memory happens or if what is going on in your mind happens to be (inaudible at 2:31) by the future, then that is pure fiction.

THERAPIST: True.

CLIENT: So unless you can just kind of remain in this place of being (laughs), you know, somehow completely in the moment, which I don’t think I have ever actually been there.

THERAPIST: I was going to say, “Let me know.”

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: You know, you practice meditation and I haven’t got there yet. So. (laughs)

CLIENT: So I am like, you know, maybe that is a goal and maybe some people can get there. But for the most part we spend our day just sifting through this menagerie of fictions that we keep creating for ourselves.

So for me that is kind of my filtering lens that I am kind of coming at when we were talking about that last week and it is like, “Ah!” You know? It is like you just keep peeling away the layers of fiction.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And it is like, wow, look at this. Here is a really old fiction.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: You know, that has been so prevalent. [00:03:33]

THERAPIST: It is like a narrative and you look at narrative therapy terms.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It is the powerful narrative. I mean, of course, Gestalt says one thing about it. Existential says another.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs)

THERAPIST: But I think in some ways, I mean, that is really insightful. And it is kind of all the same.

CLIENT: It is.

THERAPIST: But whether it is a fiction or whether it is a narrative it dominates. The dominant narrative is fiction.

CLIENT: Right. But for me what is underlying all of that is that it is not true.

THERAPIST: That is right.

CLIENT: You know, it is like we can call it whatever it is. But the bottom line is it is not true.

THERAPIST: Okay. But you feel like it is true.

CLIENT: Oh, of course. And when we grab onto those kind of things and we make those our guiding paradigms of our life then that is where all the suffering is at.

THERAPIST: So tell me, how did you then take that insight and emotionally interpret what it means for you. [00:04:32]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was just like sitting with You know, and I think I probably spent the most time and probably spent immediate time kind of just sitting with the whole doctoral piece right now because there is some immediacy involved in that in terms of signing up, blah blah blah. And it is like looking at where we were at talking about it. It is like, really, can you just look at what is being said without going through the filter of all of the past stories.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And what did you find?

CLIENT: I found that I was able to hear it a little bit differently.

THERAPIST: Tell me how you heard it then.

CLIENT: Just trying to be with I am obviously not remembering exact wordings. But it is just like being with the experience of, yeah, somebody saw enough of something in you to ask you to consider that. And then when I opened myself up to that then I realize, oh, it wasn’t just you there were two or three other people on this trip that gave you that same message. [00:05:56]

And it is like, “Wow, wow!” I had kind of discounted all of that stuff. And it wasn’t until the message from Dr. Peterson actually kind of stuck.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Then it was like disorienting. And then I kind of rewrote it to be something else. You sort of see -

THERAPIST: To fit your narrative of before.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. So how do you internalize that then.

CLIENT: I spend a lot of time kind of rethinking that and it is like, well, I need to back this up and I need to go talk this out again. So, you know, I just -

THERAPIST: How did you feel?

CLIENT: How do I feel?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Or how did I feel?

THERAPIST: How did you, how do you? If you embrace that as sort of the new truth, which would be a more balanced truth?

CLIENT: I think that I have internalized that. [00:06:59]

THERAPIST: How do you feel?

CLIENT: (sigh) Well, I think that I was going to Well it is not a new experience so I think that the experiencing is energizing.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know? It is like, “Oh. Okay.” That is what it is then let’s go. So there is sort of this sense of like the old stories just get us stuck in the mud. And it is like, “Oh!” That feeling of now because (laughs) we are in the midst of all of this snow but in the morning Never mind. You know what it is like traipsing through the snow.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And when you finally get out of the snow and you are on the sidewalk it is like, “Oh. oh. Okay. I can walk now.” (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah. Is that what it is kind of like for you?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. It is kind of like that experience of, you know, you are trudging around or you are stuck in this not being able to move.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Not completely stuck but you are slowed down. And now it is like, “Okay. I got this.” [00:08:05]

THERAPIST: So you mean sort of this kind of old fiction, as you describe it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: This kind of negative, self-esteem, not feeling good about yourself, not feeling like you belong. Those are the themes.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And, you know, kind of coming out of that, looking around and beginning to actually accept, not only is that not necessarily the truth or the dominant narrative but it is part of the past. And it is true about how you felt but that is not the information you are getting from the majority of the environment these days.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You are getting affirming messages about your ability to be successful.

CLIENT: Yeah, and that Yeah. So it is energizing. I won’t say that it is like It still feels a little tentative.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It is like I just sort of have to put a little trust in this. It is like, no, I am sticking with the trust part of this. It is like I am going to trust the fact that this is the messages that I am hearing. [00:09:13]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. So you still can’t fully embrace it yet, you think.

CLIENT: Well, more than I did.

THERAPIST: Okay. I will take that.

CLIENT: And it is kind of like, yeah, in that I feel like I am really trying to distinguish, am I putting this through the filter or are you just letting it stand. So it feels like I am in that place. You know? Hopefully, I am not.

THERAPIST: What if that is the new normal? I mean what if that is the truth? That is the truth? What if it is? Then what does that mean for you or about you?

CLIENT: Then, you know, I take that energy and I start moving forward with it. Into a certain degree I feel like, okay, that is what I did.

THERAPIST: How would that feel?

CLIENT: How would that feel. Hm. Empowering. And there is a sense of self confidence. I have been struggling on a stupid little paper that I was trying to write. And that was a reflection paper on India for Peterson. And it is like I know that all of the garbage that I was dumping on top of this paper was not allowing me to get the paper done. [00:10:40]

THERAPIST: Okay. What do you mean?

CLIENT: I am not good enough to write this paper. What have I got to say that, you know. Like all of this kind of negative garbage.

THERAPIST: When does that pop up for you most? That script?

CLIENT: Mm. (pause, sigh) Well, I am just thinking about that case and it is like, wow, that one popped up a lot but, you know, I put Peterson in this position of being somebody that I really respect. You know? And who is somebody who is really respected in his field. So it is like, you know, obviously people that I consider to be whatever, smarter than me, more accomplished than me.

So it is like, yeah. So I am playing this game of trying to impress somebody. Then it is like all of that other stuff comes up. You know, I think, probably.

THERAPIST: Okay. So because it is Nick Peterson and he has some pretty significant notoriety in the field, it was difficult for you to write the paper because you wanted to impress him. [00:11:56]

CLIENT: Yeah. And just in terms of that case it is like, mm, how far can I go back and is that the typical pattern?

CLIENT: What I find interesting about that is that he was most impressed by you when you were just being you.

CLIENT: Yeah, that is what I am saying. That it is like I am still You know, so I think that the more I am able to let that go I was able to get the paper done.

THERAPIST: Yes. Okay. And so tell me about your process in terms of letting that go?

CLIENT: You know, there is almost a moment to moment kind of struggle sometimes. It is like, let it go. Let it go. You know, it is like you can feel that stuff coming up.

THERAPIST: What is the stuff?

CLIENT: Yeah, you know, the low self-esteem. “I am not good enough.” “I can’t do this.” All the negative messaging. And it is just like, let it go.

THERAPIST: But you fight through it every time.

CLIENT: But I fight through it every time.

THERAPIST: You do.

CLIENT: Yeah. I am just trying to let that -

THERAPIST: Every time you want to do something or want to change careers or whatever. [00:13:07]

CLIENT: That is true, yeah. I do find a way to slog through it.

THERAPIST: But you punish yourself.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Mm hm.

THERAPIST: You know, what are the, if you don’t succeed in this program, which is highly doubtful, what are the stakes to you?

CLIENT: Well it would (sigh) Well, yeah. The first thought that comes to my mind is, “Well, it is only ego.”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean, what is the worst possible thing that can happen? I don’t make it? Well I am assuming that I would have an LPC and I could, pffft, whatever. Or I can always go back to my woodshop and make bird houses, or You know, I mean I have got other options. If I don’t make it in the program it is only a bruise to my ego.

THERAPIST: Sure. But it is a significant bruise. But the stakes financially, the stakes career path wise, the stakes are not huge.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: So who do you have to impress?

CLIENT: (sigh) Yeah, probably me. [00:14:15]

THERAPIST: Tell me about impressing you.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, it is overcoming that garbage and recognizing that it is like -

THERAPIST: How would you impress you?

CLIENT: (pause) I am not sure because I think that what I recognize is going to happen, you know, the same pattern. It is like, you know. achieve this level wasn’t good enough. Achieve that level, it is not good enough. So it is like I have got to break the pattern. That is not working. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So I think that I recently read this little article, blog post, I don’t know what it was. But it was something about, we don’t really hate ourselves. And it is impossible for ourselves to really hate ourselves. [00:15:15]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And it was like, “Oh!” It grabbed my attention so I sat with it for a couple of minutes and it was like The premise was that we are engaged in behaviors. When we hate something, when we truly hate something, we do something to try to get that out of our lives. So if there is some element about ourselves that we hate or dislike we are trying to get rid of that part, you know, out of our lives.

So we engage in behaviors that don’t necessarily work. So instead of changing up the behavior we just do more of it. Thinking that if I do more of it (laughs) it will be better.

THERAPIST: So what it is that you are doing more of?

CLIENT: (sigh) Trying to overcome that low self-esteem by, you know, upping the stakes all the time. Maybe.

THERAPIST: Yes. But that doesn’t work.

CLIENT: I don’t know. I don’t know. I have to really think about that. Am I really doing all of this stuff out of that motivation? I mean it sounds like a logical thing to say but is that really what is going on? [00:16:30]

THERAPIST: I mean it could be mixed. I mean you have a natural, intellectual curiosity about things.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But that is not, I mean that is not really the point. You know? The point is, whatever you achieve isn’t enough to get rid of the old script.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Why do you think you hold on to it so when you know it is not true?

CLIENT: I think that it has just been within the past short, just a relatively short period of time that I am starting to see that. So these are relatively new.

THERAPIST: How short?

CLIENT: I don’t know. Maybe (pause) a year.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I am not 100 percent sure. You know, but I think that I recognize that there has always been that pattern of whatever I have isn’t good enough. [00:17:31]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Who is it good enough for? I mean, who are you trying to be good enough for?

CLIENT: I am not sure. There is that sense of, you know, this isn’t quite the right thing or the right job. There is always kind of that underlying sense of can’t be happy, can’t be satisfied or something.

THERAPIST: Don’t belong here, maybe?

CLIENT: Don’t belong? (pause) Maybe. Maybe. I have to think about that. (pause) I am not sure.

THERAPIST: It is like you are describing this sort of internal unrest.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Restlessness.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Not that, you know, it is never ceasing. I mean it is like you find places of being. And it’s like, okay, I’m kind of here. This is okay. This is all good. And then it is like, “Hm.” You know? And it’s like, no, I have got to find something else or, you know, whatever. [00:18:41]

THERAPIST: I still wonder how will you impress yourself? How will you know you will be impressed?

CLIENT: Well, I think one of the other things that I am recognizing in the whole story and fiction narrative is recognizing that the biggest story or the biggest fiction is the fiction of me.

THERAPIST: Which is?

CLIENT: All of the story and all of the stuff that I have created around my sense of who I am. You know? That is all fictional too. And it is like you create these expectations and how things are supposed to be and you accumulate all this stuff.

THERAPIST: So who is the real Seamus?

CLIENT: Yeah, you know, it is like pulling away all of that stuff and getting underneath that. It is like, well, trying to impress this, you know, this fictional story. It is like, well yeah, that is going to be really futile, isn’t it? [00:19:55]

THERAPIST: Well, but when you do pull it all away, what is there?

CLIENT: (sigh) Yeah. You know, and I think that that is kind of what I think the gift of this program is, is that it is like I see that, okay, the degree is great and I am sure the work is great and being able to help people is great. But it is like there is It is just this path of self-discovery right now or deeper self-discovery. It is not that I haven’t done some of this work before. But it is like this is -

THERAPIST: That is not an answer, Seamus.

CLIENT: I don’t know.

THERAPIST: That is an intellectualized answer about the -

CLIENT: Yeah, I know. I know. I know. It is like dancing around.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: But it is like Is it being at a place of saying, “I am not sure. I don’t know.” Or, “I just can’t see it.” You know?

THERAPIST: Hm. [00:20:52]

CLIENT: (pause, sigh)) Yeah. I guess that there is this budding sense of (pause) Yeah, that is kind of interesting thought or an interesting new way of looking at it. It is like, you know, kind of recognizing. It is like, oh, okay, this is transition time. This is like there is something else going on here. There is kind of this budding sense or emergence or just being able to peel away stuff to be able to have a deeper sense of what that is.

THERAPIST: Gestalt talks about peeling away the layers -

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: to get to the most genuine core of yourself.

CLIENT: Okay. I haven’t studied Gestalt.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It talks about that.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And then, who are you underneath?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: There is a real guy of substance under there. [00:22:03]

CLIENT: Mm hm. Mm hm.

THERAPIST: You know?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And quite possibly, and I don’t know, maybe other people don’t see your layers as much as you do.

CLIENT: Mm hm. (pause)

THERAPIST: Because they don’t know you feel insecure.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Right? And they don’t know that you doubt yourself.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That is not how you present.

CLIENT: Mm hm. (pause) Yeah. Mm hm. So I think that, I don’t know, I am just kind of looking at the different puzzle pieces out here on the table. I sort of feel like trying to let go of some of the story, you know, puts me in a better place to be able to see things maybe as they are. As opposed to, you know, I know it is just another way of saying, you know, getting rid of some of the garbage, some of the filters. But whatever. It is just like, okay. And maybe coming to (laughs) [00:23:27]

THERAPIST: You laugh.

CLIENT: a place of authenticity.

THERAPIST: Yeah. So what would that look like.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, it is like that challenge in those beginning classes of, you know, authenticity. Am I authentic? You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And somebody talked about one of the greatest challenges is to be impeccably, to have impeccable speech or to have impeccable honesty. I am just trying to remember. That we have maybe honesty at one level. You know? Kind of like our dealings with people. For me at the underneath level it is like, “Are you really honest?” Can you really be honest with yourself?

Or, you know, is there just so much habitual energy around all of the stories that you have told yourself that you believe your own crap. You know, and it is like that is not honest. [00:24:50]

THERAPIST: Well, is it honest? I mean, you know, you say you believe your own crap. But these are very painful stories -

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: that somehow you picked up as a very young kid.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And a developing adolescent for all the reasons we have talked about. And so, as you see, you can’t just let that go. Right? You can change the narrative and you can accept that that is not your truth, if it was at all. It is certainly not anymore. But, you know, it is interesting because, you know, I supervise the interns down here.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And I always pick them based on who they are. So in a couple of weeks we will do 30 interviews. And, you know, you pick people based on who they are and how I think they will hold up to Phoenix students.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: Because Phoenix students have a very low tolerance for people who are not real.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: Like they don’t have time for it. You know? Especially, you know, it is an older student population which I really like. And they just don’t have time for bullshit. [00:25:58]

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: They are kind of like, “Look, I have parents, I have got kids, I have got all this stuff going on.”

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: “I have got issues. I have come to talk to you about it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Be a real frickin’ human being. Okay?”

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: And regardless of the age of the intern, if it is somebody in his or her 20’s all the way up to students in his or her 50’s or 60’s, I choose them based on who they are. And one of the interesting things that happens is, so whether these are students who have seeing clients awhile or this is the first client they will ever see, many of them go through this transformation where they think a professional counselor has to be formal and kind of buttoned up.

And I hear them on their tapes and I say, “Who is that? I don’t want that. Bring you back.” Right? Because clients, we all do therapy in different ways, but clients come back to you because of who you are.

CLIENT: Yeah. Right.

THERAPIST: Some of what you do but they are attracted to the relationship you form with them.

CLIENT: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so when you look at The painful stories that you have lived you will use in your work. Right. [00:27:04]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: But, you know, also deeply, genuinely who you are. All of that. Your struggles, your joys, your fears goes into it.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: So when you say you are not honest or, you know, kind of your struggling with this crap of sort of letting go of the script. You know, I guess I would hope that you would look at it a different way.

CLIENT: Alright, well (pause) I think that what I am hearing you say in that or what I am sensing from you in that is that I am sort of wanting to like just drop, cut this off, deny it, it is not here. And for me, if that what I am projecting, that is not exactly where I am at with that. It is more a sense of a feeling of, yeah, it is never going to go anywhere. [00:28:04]

I mean that is the makeup, that is the fabric of who I am. And I get that. You know? But there is a difference between it being there I am just trying to think of an analogy or a metaphor that kind of sums up how I feel about that. There is a difference between (pause, sigh) I don’t know.

You know, it is like I see these If I could have a relationship with that part of my life it would be more of one of like a book on a shelf.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It is like, okay. And it is there. It ain’t going anywhere. You know? But this is a chapter and here is what I have learned from this part of my life. And here, if I can open this up for you, let me kind of explain. This kind of explains a little bit about who I am.

THERAPIST: So how would this explain it? What would you get from the book?

CLIENT: From?

THERAPIST: That chapter.

CLIENT: I am sorry.

THERAPIST: The painful chapters. What would you get from it? What did you learn from it? Who did you become because of it? [00:29:18]

CLIENT: Mm. I see. I think that probably all of those experiences helped me to be really empathic. You know, I have had, you know, not all of the experiences in the world to have, but I have had some. You know? And it is like I know that feeling and I can feel that feel.

THERAPIST: Which feeling? Which one?

CLIENT: Whatever. Low self-esteem, shame, feeling like you are the outsider, feeling whatever. You know? Not good enough, not smart enough. Whatever. You know, whatever those feelings are I am just saying that I think that all of those experiences, you know, really create the fabric of who I am. So it is not that I am really trying to cut that off. [00:30:20]

But there is a difference between recognizing that and somehow being connected to that. You know? It is like then now you are kind of talking like being hardwired like a computer.

THERAPIST; Okay.

CLIENT: You know, and it is like it is not that experience. The experience is more of one of like here is a reference book that explains a little bit about who I am. As opposed to being hardwired to the story of.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So I am sorry. I am just I know that I think visually, whatever. And I am just -

THERAPIST: I think it is pretty cool. You know. But whatever it is, whether it is a book or hardwired into a computer, right? It is sort of it is still here. It is still right in front of you. You still look at it.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: I wonder if we can move it to the side or to the back.

CLIENT: Oh, I see.

THERAPIST: Right? So, you know, it is still here.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: It is still right in front of you because it is still the natural trigger. It is still your “go to.” Right?

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Where you take the compliment and your first reaction is, “No.” And then you go, “Maybe.” And, I mean, that is still improvement because you go, “Well, maybe.” Right? [00:31:30]

CLIENT: Mm hm. Mm hm.

THERAPIST: But I wonder if, you know, you sort of embrace the fact that you are being validated for how bright you are, how capable you are. Right?

CLIENT: Mm hm. Mm hm.

THERAPIST: People who seek your friendship. Right? Classmates who enjoy your company. Right?

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And that helps you rewrite the script. There are times in your life I would imagine, if you went back, where there are chances to rewrite the script. But it has had a very powerful hold on you. But you don’t need it anymore.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: It is not true.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Right? And so it has made you in some ways a deeply sensitive man. Uniquely qualified in some ways to be doing what you are studying to be doing. But not if you can’t allow it to recede to the background. Right?

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: So as long as it is still in the forefront that is going to cause not only more pain, but it is going to be very hard for you when you are working with a client with similar issues to say all the right things and not feel them yourself. [00:32:32]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But once you And it is in the process. I can see you working through it. But if you allow it to be there. I mean if you look at, you know, I don’t profess to be an Adlerian therapist, okay? But if you look at Adler’s inferiority complex, Right? And sort of taking that and to turning into very productive things. But eventually you have to let that quiet itself.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: So eventually, when is And I guess when I say, what would it take to impress you? You know? In some ways, you should already be really impressed. You should be extremely impressed with who you are, what you stand for and how you proceed. Even if you are not always proud of the things that you have had to go through in your life.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: You can still be proud of the man that you are.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think that probably what I was kind of focusing in on when you said that. You know, I mean, maybe a couple of things, you know, initially. There is that one, that deeply German sense of we don’t blow our own horns. We are not late. We don’t blow our own horns. (laughs) So there is that. [00:33:45]

Then that I kind of picked up on that notion of, you know, the fiction of the self. And I am like, then I got kind of wrapped up into that whole But if I can put all of that aside and now just what you just said resonates. You know? So I recognize that it is like, well, that wasn’t my first response but what you are saying does trigger something.

THERAPIST: Which part resonates?

CLIENT: That, yeah, I am completely impressed with me. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Oh, well good! (laughs) Wow! Say more about that.

CLIENT: Well, yeah. I mean part of who I am and where I am kind of is based upon It is like, okay, I have got all of this other garbage over here.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know? But I do have plenty of success stories.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: You know? That I can look at and it is like, “Can I handle the doctoral program? Yeah, you can handle it.” You know? Because I have got all of these other things that I have accomplished and it is like, hmph, it is just another thing. [00:34:54]

THERAPIST: It is. But that is the part that is not internalized yet. That is not the dominant message.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: It is there.

CLIENT: It is there.

THERAPIST: But that can be the dominant message.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You know, that can be. And it is not about blowing your own horn. I mean sometimes that is appropriate too. But it is really about letting that be the dominant message. Which doesn’t mean you don’t get scared or feel insecure sometimes. But it does mean you spend more of your time feeling good about yourself -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: and the things that you are capable of and what you have accomplished than not.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, and I think that that is what allows me to slog through the snow.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: In order to be able to keep going.

THERAPIST: Yes, I agree.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: But I think that is what you don’t recognize on a consistent level. I know it is there because there is no way I mean, in some ways you have to think to yourself, you know it somewhere because what would make you believe you could jump into a master’s program of which you have little background -

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: and do well. And yet you wanted to and now you are. [00:36:05]

CLIENT: (laughs) Yeah. I know. Yeah.

THERAPIST: So that part is there.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What made you possibly believe that you should go to college when that is not the message that came from your family.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: And yet you did. What made you, occur to you -

CLIENT: That is a bitter (ph) one.

THERAPIST: you know, that you could go from a theology background to teaching, is it industrial arts? Okay? To quitting that full time job with good benefits and opening your own business. I mean, so there is confidence at your core.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: But you don’t allow that to be the dominant message.

CLIENT: Hm.

THERAPIST: And that dominant message, it is not arrogance.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Right? It is more comfortable with yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, even the parts of you that are vulnerable or hurting. You know, I think it is possible to, even parts of yourself you don’t like very much, but you can still be comfortable with yourself. So we know that is a very strong in there because, as I said before at the beginning of the session, you always do it anyway. [00:37:13]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Right? You always do it anyway. You always stand up and take care of your responsibilities and uphold your obligations and do it anyway regardless of if you feel depressed -

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: or scared or insecure. So to me that is the dominant message. Right? And that can’t come through because if this is the dominant core it is like, I guess I am not a visual person but to use a visual. It is like you let the bees come in or birds and peck the shit out of it, okay, until it is dominant but it is limping.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: But that is your dominant message.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Your whole life that is more of a dominant message than the negative things that you got about yourself, really.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, how do you take in what I am saying?

CLIENT: No. I am on board with that. Yeah. I get that.

THERAPIST: So how do you let that be at the center.

CLIENT: Hm. Well. (laughs) I think I am going to start practicing one of these silly things I saw on a Ted Talk. [00:38:14]

THERAPIST: Okay. Tell me.

CLIENT: (laughs) And I don’t know if I can pull up that Ted Talk and send you a copy of it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, please do.

CLIENT: But it was directed toward girls and it was that this woman was working with girls who are having self-esteem issues and confidence issues. And it was all in just changing their behavior, their external behavior. You know? And she got girls to take a look at the way they were standing, the way they were sitting. And it is like, kind of her premise was that the way that we carry ourselves -

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: you know, has a direct impact on how we think.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And vice versa. So she is like, she did this research study where she just had girls pose in powers of position. [00:39:17]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Confidence. And it is like two minutes a day and it changed up their -

THERAPIST: How they felt about themselves.

CLIENT: How they felt about themselves. And it is like, you know, it is like start acting like it. You know, it is just like, look, if this is your dominant feature.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And we just recently took the strengths finder assessment in the careers class.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So it is like having It is like, “Oh! Well this is who you really are.”

THERAPIST: What did you score, by the way?

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: Is this like the SDS?

CLIENT: No it is one of these deals. Strengths finders dot com.

THERAPIST: Okay. It is not the Strom (ph) either.

CLIENT: It is somebody making 25 bucks on selling a book and giving you this 177 point assessment test. So it is empathy, connectedness. And you have to kind of look at their definitions of that. [00:40:18]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Um. (pause) Shoot. (sigh) I am just able to hang on to empathy right now -

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: with the number one strength.

THERAPIST: Was that your number one strength. (pause) Okay. That is a good thing.

CLIENT: Yeah, so it is kind of like And connectedness. It was like, yeah, I felt really comfortable with the assessment. It is like, yeah, that is who I am.

THERAPIST: Yes. So I guess my argument would be, you actually don’t strike me as somebody who does not know himself well. You strike me as somebody who is sometimes uncomfortable with some aspects of you or some of the things that you have had to experience.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: But you actually don’t strike me as somebody who is completely unaware of who he is, what he wants, what he stands for.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: Right? I mean I think is shame clouds the issue from earlier, from those experiences. But I mean you don’t stroke me as someone who doesn’t know. [00:41:25]

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: I mean, am I making this up?

CLIENT: No. I think that that is completely accurate.

THERAPIST: So I think if you go back You know, you were the guy who the outside motivation to people please had you engaged to the young woman who was expecting when you were in college. But that is one motivation. Things are much more complicated than that.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Some of that was deep empathy for her circumstances.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Right.

THERAPIST: And the fact that she was by herself.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And she was a close friend.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Right? So some of it So it is easy to go, well, here you are trying to people please again. You got yourself in this situation. Well, you could buy her flowers and candy or help to pay her bills. Right? But some of it you were moved by your sense of compassion, caring and empathy.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Right? Even with your wife, who we haven’t talked about in a while.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: Right? And your sort of anger at the situation and sort of being closed out, you know, is a struggle for you because you have empathy for her traumatic circumstances. Right? [00:42:33]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: It just, of course, craps all over you own very real needs. Right? So, you know, I think it is not that simple. Some of it, the outside motivation, the part of you that you might not like about you is the people pleaser part. But the part of you maybe that if you reframe it, the part of you that wants to be connected to other people because that is not how you felt growing up.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: You know? And not only wanting it but admitting it, embracing it and searching for it.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: I don’t see anything wrong with that. I see that as a very honest, human need that most men, all humans I think feel.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But most men can’t admit.

CLIENT: Right. Mm hm. Yeah. You know and I would say that I feel, you know, recognizing that, yeah, I put myself in the path of this train. But one of the kind of unexpected consequences is like, oh, wow, yeah. All of a sudden I am in this position to be, you know, making those relationships. [00:43:50]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know and, yeah.

THERAPIST: You are not afraid to be impacted by the things happening around you. Right? You don’t feign apathy. You are not afraid to be affected or to care.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Well that is huge. Right? You don’t, you know, take human pain, whether it is yours or anybody else’s, lightly. Right?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: I mean, does this sound like I am describing you?

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Okay. Well how did I know that? I am really not a genius.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: You know?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Where do you think I picked that up from.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, is that a dishonest part of you?

CLIENT: Mm. Good point. Yeah.

THERAPIST: You see? So I think you are more critical of you but I think you are probably more honest than many. You know, not only in your sort of search for truth and your struggle for self-acceptance but your own vulnerability. Well, that is really hard to be that honest. Right? And it will only serve you well in a field like this. [00:45:02]

CLIENT: Mm hm. Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And the people pleasing part can be amended.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Yeah. And it is not like it is a completely useless trait.

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: It just has to be -

THERAPIST: Modified.

CLIENT: Yeah, modulated.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. And you did it in the classroom. I know you had to because students will walk all over you.

CLIENT: (laughs) Mm hm.

THERAPIST: So you had to do some of it there. I mean you have to be able to deal with angry students. You have to be able to deal with clients who aren’t necessarily happy with what you are doing to work on the relationship. Right? And so I even think you have overestimated certain things negative and underestimated certain things positive.

And if I was going to encourage to you to sort of get honest, that is where I would encourage you to get honest. About the balance of how you view you. Not about the honesty about holding onto the old script or the struggles or any of that. I mean, it sounds to me like you are pretty deeply honest about those things. [00:46:11]

CLIENT: Hm. (pause)

THERAPIST: What are your thoughts on that?

CLIENT: Well, I think that that certainly gives me something to think about. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Looking at that sense of how much, you know, emphasis. And really just trying to continue to focus on, you know. It is like let’s look toward. What does that really feel like. What is the, you know, what is the truer essence or the truer nature of who I am. And I don’t know. Yeah. And maybe just (pause, sigh)

I guess the word I am thinking, you know, trying to come up with a synonym for but it is like, you know, celebrate or try to just sit with that. I don’t know what word I am looking for. Celebrate doesn’t seem like the right word. [00:47:26]

THERAPIST: Embrace?

CLIENT: Embrace.

THERAPIST: You know, I have an author for you.

CLIENT: Yeah?

THERAPIST: Have you heard of Yalom?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You should read Yalom’s stuff.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Yes. He strikes me as Of course, I have never met the man. I have seen him speak and I have read a lot of his books. But, you know, he at least comes across as being humble and honest in his struggle. He is an existentialist.

CLIENT: Existentialism. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And the call him the “Group God.”

CLIENT: The group?

THERAPIST: The “Group God,” because he is the one who really kind of, you know, he wrote one of the definitive -

CLIENT: Oh, okay. Right, right, right.

THERAPIST: group therapy texts.

CLIENT: I’m sorry. You put those two words.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah. Sorry. They call him the “Group God.” Irvin Yalom.

CLIENT: Irvin Yalom. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And he has written books with some of his clients. You know, “Love’s Executioner,” was one. But you should look into Pull him up on YouTube.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: You know, you can see interviews with him and he is pretty honest about his own struggles in working with clients and what that looks like.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And you might really You know, again, existentialism, Taoism.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Some similar, very similar kind of philosophies.

CLIENT: (laughs) Yeah.

THERAPIST: From a novice point of view. [00:48:37]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But check it out and let me know what you think.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: You might really resonate with some of his work.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I know that when I was studying a little bit about the existentialists and -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: yeah, you know, I am really resonating with these guys but I am kind of looking at the rest of the field and I am like, yeah, nobody seems to be doing anything with that. So. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Maybe I should focus on Alice (ph) or somebody else. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Well, you know what? And, you know, I will say this: I think it is not that people aren’t focusing on it, it is just that I think mental health has made a transition to empirically validated treatments and, you know, session plans and treatment plans. And something, unfortunately, could get lost if we forget some of these other types of therapies. And I think they can still be incorporated with some of the newer therapies that we have.

CLIENT: And I think that probably the truth is that there just aren’t that many people that are willing to go there. [00:49:40]

THERAPIST: Possibly. Depending on who you are working with. But you will find out.

CLIENT: Hm.

THERAPIST: So lots to think about for next week.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: So I will see you then.

CLIENT: Well, thank you. Maybe I will be able to hear you better by then.

THERAPIST: Hopefully, we have a Oh yeah. How is your -

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