TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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CLIENT: ...surprised [to see me.] (ph)

THERAPIST: Yeah, quite surprised.

CLIENT: [Oh my God.] (ph)

THERAPIST: So how are you doing? How was your week?

CLIENT: Pretty Good. Yeah. Just was hoping that there would be a little bit more time this morning to have spent a little prep time. Like, “Okay, where am I at? What am I going to say?” And it is like, “Yeah. No, here I am.” (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. There is never as much of that as we would want.

CLIENT: So I am just kind of reeling back to, did I make the decision to take the GRE last week? Did I tell you I was doing the GRE? Okay.

THERAPIST: No. You decided to not do the doc program.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Right away.

CLIENT: Oh. Right away.

THERAPIST: Right away.

CLIENT: So I think where I am at this week from whatever events, not that there were that many events, yeah, I made the decision. And it is like, yeah. I am going to go. I will go take the GRE. [00:01:12]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And it is like now I have to pony up 180 bucks to do this.

THERAPIST: Is it 180 now? Oh goodness!

CLIENT: So it is like, okay, I am at 180 bucks if I decide. Whatever. So I am going to go do that. I will go ahead and fill out the rest of the application forms. It looks like, and maybe we have had this discussion, but it kind of looks like kind of what they are anticipating or hoping that I am going to do is to go ahead and apply for this year.

THERAPIST: Okay. For the masters or the doctoral program?

CLIENT: The doctoral program.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And then I would be admitted into the doc program and I would be finishing up my master’s degree classes as prereqs to the doctorate. The doc program. Which makes them more expensive. So I am still trying to figure out, okay, so why wouldn’t I wait until next year to apply for the doc program? [00:02:19]

THERAPIST: Okay. Why wouldn’t you wait until -

CLIENT: I don’t know. But that is like a question that I need to have answered. You know, Dr. Fred is saying, “Well, there are advantages to doing this.” And I think that there is clearly the people that sign up for the doc program and get involved in it, you know, are less likely or more likely to complete it or to stick with it or whatever. I don’t know. (sigh)

THERAPIST: Okay. So you think that they are telling you you have a pretty good shot so you might as well. That is what it is sounding like.

CLIENT: Yeah. And she said, it sounded like they would be able to set me up with at least a half time assistanceship.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Which would cover the cost difference. But I am like, well maybe if I get in and they will figure out how to find me a full time assistanceship and then I don’t have to worry about it.

THERAPIST: Sure. So you changed your mind.

CLIENT: Really? That was where we left it last week? [00:03:26]

THERAPIST: Well last week I think you decided to go ahead and finish up the master’s degree.

CLIENT: Well that is definitely going to have to be part of it.

THERAPIST: So would you do a praticum and internship at the masters level?

CLIENT: Yeah. I think so.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Because unless they are figuring that, you know, whatever practicum But I am thinking that a practicum at the doc level would be different than a practicum at the master’s degree level.

THERAPIST: It is from what I know about it because they are looking for different things because most people who go through the program already are either licensed therapists or have some, you know -

CLIENT: Experience. (laughs)

THERAPIST: You know you can apply, get in and decide to delay your admission for a year if you wanted to.

CLIENT: Yeah, but that is not what they are wanting me to do.

THERAPIST: No. It sounds like they want you to kind of go forward. I mean, how do you feel about that?

CLIENT: I think I feel okay about that, you know, in that it is like, well, nothing really changes all that much. And as long as I am getting, you know, at the end of this they are awarding me a master’s degree so that I can get my LPC, so that I can be working while I am also doing. [00:04:42]

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: You know, I would like to be working toward the LCPC or getting hours toward that. So as long as I am able to do that. And if things work out and if life circumstances work out differently and I can’t complete the doc program, at least I have got the master’s degree.

THERAPIST: Sure. I think there is really no losing here.

CLIENT: I don’t think so.

THERAPIST: So kind of whatever decision that you make.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Now I know for the doc program for people who already have their LCPC they are pretty flexible about what it is comprised of. You always want to make sure that you have the number of hours you need and you are supervised by either an LCPC or somebody like myself who has a clinical licensure through being a psychologist, that you get those hours supervised.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And as long as you get those hours supervised by an appropriately licensed professional you will be fine. So it is kind of a win, win either way.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: It really doesn’t make a difference. You know, I got my master’s degree along the way in the doctoral program. So most people at Phoenix don’t do it that way but it doesn’t really matter. So if they are saying, “Hey, we really want you in the doc program,” that is a really good sign I think that, you know, you have a strong chance on getting in. [00:06:04]

CLIENT: (sigh) Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I have heard they are going to take a bigger class next year to make up for some of the enrollment deficits of maybe some of the students who have dropped out. Because typically doctoral programs are smaller and maybe they want you to be a part of that class. So that is impressive.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think, though, that I really wouldn’t start the cohort until Fall of ‘15.

THERAPIST: Sure, sure.

CLIENT: So it would be, you know, I would still have an entire year yet before I would start a cohort.

THERAPIST: Sure. How do you feel about all this?

CLIENT: You know, it was disorienting at first. You know, some different feelings. It was a little disorienting then, you know, kind of went down that path of wanting to dismiss it. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then kind of like, “Well, this feels really good.” You know? And then I am kind of wanting to check that. And it is like, let’s make this decision based on something other than, “Ooh, this feels really good.” You know? So I think, you know, it has maybe evened out a little bit more. [00:07:13]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And now I do have another group. I don’t know if I have mentioned this group of guys that we get together every four to six weeks.

THERAPIST: No. I don’t think you did.

CLIENT: And it is an intentional group. I was invited to be a part of it. And it was started by a guy that I knew from kind of early on just out of undergrad. Yeah, someplace back then. We have known each other off and on for a long time. And he has got his PhD in psychology. And when we first got married he put together an intentional young families group.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So we would get together about once every four to six weeks and talk about young family issues, raising kids. And then that group kind of died out for one reason or another.

THERAPIST: Because you were raising young families with kids. (laughs)

CLIENT: Well, yeah, I think that there was really a nasty divorce. [00:08:19]

THERAPIST: Oh, goodness.

CLIENT: And one of the group members that kind of precipitated the end of that. (sigh) So this group is guys that, the other two guys in the group are counselors and I was invited to be a part of this group because he knew that I was getting into counseling. So it was a nice mix. So I am the youngest guy in the group, you know, so it is nice to have the experience of these other guys. So it was a nice change to kind of air this idea with them and we kind of talked it through.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So, yeah, I sort of feel now I am kind of in this place of it does seem like it is just one of those situations where it is really difficult to find the cons. You know there is a lot of pros about this and not so many cons.

THERAPIST: Well, more time. But you don’t mind that.

CLIENT: A little more time and a little bit more money.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And since you don’t really mind that.

CLIENT: And right now it doesn’t seem to be an issue.

THERAPIST: Sure. Sure.

CLIENT: That could change any day.

THERAPIST: Have you told your wife about it?

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Tell me her thoughts.

CLIENT: I think she has been fine with it. I would say it may be an issue if she wasn’t so closely connected to her best friend. But they spend all of their waking hours together anyway. So. (laughs) [00:09:43]

THERAPIST: So, tell me about that. I detect some sarcasm there.

CLIENT: Well, yes and no. I mean, I feel like there is less pressure for me.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, thinking about this program because this semester I am up here three nights out of the week.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, and I am up here most days. Well that wouldn’t really affect here. But, you know, three nights out of the week I am up here.

THERAPIST: It stings though, doesn’t it?

CLIENT: No, I am really okay with it.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Because if I wasn’t here I would likely be at home alone. (laughs)

THERAPIST: No, I meant it stings that she still spending a lot of this time with this woman.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, I go back and forth on that. And I really, you know, I am able to see. You know, it is like I can look at it this way, that I recognize that this is still an issue and I know that I still need to continue to work with this issue because it is going to constantly be there for me as a counselor. [00:10:52]

THERAPIST: The issue with your wife?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: So I recognize that there is still a sense of being unsettled. But I am also in this other place of recognizing, yeah, you know, I can create this universe however I want to.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, I can look at it this way or I can look at it this way. And if I spend a lot of time dwelling on this then I go down that road of being angry, frustrated, upset, mildly depressed. I get all of those kinds of things. And I am like, “Yeah, do you see what you did there.” You know?

THERAPIST: But that stuff is still there.

CLIENT: Oh, it is there but, you know, it is also recognizing that And I know that I am filtering some of the language of choice theory on this. But it is like it is a choice. I can go there or I can go with a different -

THERAPIST: Well they coexist together in the same universe.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: You know, there are a lot of positive things happening for you. You know, you are excelling in this academic area where your professors have really looked at you and said, “Hey, we want to continue to educate you.” You know? I mean that is impressive. And are encouraging you to apply even before you finish the master’s program. So that is great.[00:12:05]

But then there is still some of this old stuff there, you know, that in some ways it makes it less of a hassle because your wife is spending so much time with her best friend that you don’t really have to consider her needs in this. But on the other hand, it means she is still not really considering yours. Toughie.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I know that that is there. I know that there is a sense, you know (pause) Yeah, that I am sure that if we had that conversation -

THERAPIST: You and she.

CLIENT: She and I. If we had that conversation her world view would be, you know, I am projecting, that she is doing everything that she can to spend time with me and showing me all these different ways that she cares about me and those kinds of things. And I recognize that, yeah, in her universe I am sure that that is 100 percent correct.

But in terms of knowing each other, you know, really spending time. You know, “Do I really know you?” kind of things. It is like, yeah, I think we probably both suck at that pretty much. [00:13:21]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. What would you like to, if anything You know, we spent a lot of time kind of in our earlier work looking at those pieces. We have moved away from looking at those pieces. What would you like to do with them?

CLIENT: Yeah. I have thought about that one too. You know, it is like the inclination from years of habitual energy, the inclination is to avoid it, to ignore it. And now I feel like, well, yeah, how much (pause) So I think that I am pushing against that inclination and recognizing that, yeah, as a professional I am going to be asking other people to do that kind of thing.

And it is like So I know that But I feel In this situation I feel stuck. You know. I feel stuck in those old habitual patterns. I don’t feel that I can’t do it. I don’t feel like I can’t figure this out. But I know that I feel stuck. And I know that, yeah, yeah. (pause) It is an interesting You know, it is interesting. (laughs) [00:14:48]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: We go there and it is like, hmmm, yeah. It is like the brain shuts down. It is like I don’t want to go there. I don’t want to think about it. Boom.

THERAPIST: In some ways I am kind of torn with you because I still see it as a very painful issue. You are in this marriage where you are not getting your needs met.

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: And there is a part of you that wants to still connect. And then, you know, I am happy for you that, you know, you have kind of found your academic home and you are being fulfilled in these other ways.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: If you could have it look any way you wanted it too, how would it look?

(pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. If I can just pull myself out of the box of the shoulds and woulds and all of those kinds of things and just put myself into that place, into that fictional place, that fantasy place, it is like, well, I think today the answer would be, “Yeah.” You know, the whole marriage commitment thing. [00:16:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, whoever came up with that idea? That is not good. I don’t like that anymore. So we will be done with that. And, you know, I am kind of liking this not being, you know, in this role of being a student again. And it is like, yeah, I kind of like the freedom of all of that. You know?

THERAPIST: So are you saying that in your ideal world you would not be with your wife?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean if I can really just suspend -

THERAPIST: Suspend it all.

CLIENT: If I could just suspend all of the language. And this is really difficult. I am really feeling a lot of struggle right now to, “Yes, but you can’t go there. You can’t think that.”

THERAPIST: Tell me more about the struggle.

CLIENT: You know, that notion of the marriage commitment. It is like, yeah, you don’t even This is a lifelong commitment. And it is like, “Yeah, too bad for you. But you made that commitment.” You know?

THERAPIST: So too bad, you know, you are locked in here.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Mm hm.

THERAPIST: But your thoughts don’t match that. [00:17:13]

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, and it is like, well, what have you got? What have you got? Is it really bad enough that you would want to call it quits. You know, really. What is so terrible? So I mean there is a number of all of those different voices coming. It is just so against all the past tapes that it is like -

THERAPIST: Tell me about the tapes.

CLIENT: My folks. You know, watching my folks and their relationship. And it is like -

THERAPIST: What about it?

CLIENT: I know that it looked like it was You know, like their relationship looks like mine.

THERAPIST: How close a match?

CLIENT: Maybe pretty close. I don’t know. It doesn’t seem You know, they seem to get along well enough together. But, yeah, in terms of how much do they actually connect? You know, do they know You know, it is like they are roommates living in a house. You know, it is like, “I’ll do my thing. You do your thing.” And, well, I don’t know. They do some stuff together. But I don’t know. [00:18:37]

THERAPIST: You feel like it sort of mirrors your own.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think, yeah. You know, in that need of mine to connect with somebody. To feel like I have actually got somebody that is listening to me. You know, might be even moderately interested to know something about me. You know, those kind of feelings. And it is like, yeah, I am not sure I see that in their relationship. You know? It is kind of like they repeat each other’s stories.

THERAPIST: Sure. But how connected are they?

CLIENT: You know, it is like, “We have got a history together and we can share that.”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And, “We have got kids together and we can share that.” But in terms of, you know, anything Maybe their needs Maybe they don’t care.

THERAPIST: And what about -

CLIENT: And that is great for them.

THERAPIST: But it is not okay with you.

CLIENT: It doesn’t seem to be.

THERAPIST: And what about sex?

CLIENT: (sigh, pause) You know, again, another Yeah, another issue. It is just like, yeah. And I feel that. You know? (laughs) [00:19:51]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I feel that frustration of “Damn it!” (laughs)

THERAPIST: Damn it, what?

CLIENT: You know, to be in that place or to be in this relationship where I am like (pause) great, so you know I can get myself mentally to this place where it is like, okay, I can wall myself off. And it is like I don’t need to think about sex and I don’t need to think about interpersonal relationships. And I can just kind of section myself off for a little while. And then I feel like then there are times where it is just like you know that is not working real well for you because it leaks out.

THERAPIST: Well sure. It is a real human need to touch and be touched and to physically be validated with your partner.

CLIENT: And so I feel like I am in this relationship where I feel like the condition of it is that we just don’t go there. We don’t talk about it. I am not trying to use any kind of blaming language because I recognize that we are both responsible for being in that position. [00:21:10]

THERAPIST: But it is not okay with you.

CLIENT: No. No. And it is just like, yeah, what do I feel? I feel trapped. What do I feel? Stuck. You know? What other words? Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And divorce would be, and I am not at all trying to sort of try to convince you that divorce is the right option.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: I am just putting it, you know, kind of talking it through with you. But divorce is an absolute no no because? What are the messages you have received about that?

CLIENT: Oh, I suppose I go immediately to the kids.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, it is like you have got to stay married for the kids.

THERAPIST: But they are grown.

CLIENT: Right. But you still got to stay married for the kids because whatever. And then the other thought is, regardless of how weak or dysfunctional our relationship is, it is like me trying to imagine her going through that. [00:22:19]

THERAPIST: Going through what?

CLIENT: Going through a divorce.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And it is like I am pretty sure she is not going to handle that real well. And, you know, I am making up that whole story knowing full well that people are very resilient and they can figure this out.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. And how would it be for you?

CLIENT: (pause) Well, you know, yeah. I have had that experience of letting go of an earlier relationship where I was engaged to somebody for a couple of years.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And that was difficult to kind of initially go through. But after that it was just euphoric feelings of freedom. And I recognize that, well, am I just kind of reaching back for that. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Well, it is like that is the only answer you know.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, run away and you got rewarded for running away because you had this -

THERAPIST: Whoa! You are so hard on yourself. I don’t think you ran away. You were engaged for several years to her. [00:23:33]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: That wasn’t about running away it was about recognizing that that was not a good match.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And if you decided tomorrow to get a divorce it wouldn’t be running away. This is what you are telling yourself isn’t it?

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It is like, Steve, you have created this whole world in your head -

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: about what you think it is. Right? And all while you distance yourself from how painful it is on a daily basis even if you are sort of not internalizing it anymore and throwing yourself into school. It always comes back to -

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. You know?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I can only imagine how extraordinarily painful that would be because you are a man who wants to connect.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: In a very healthy way. And to be with your wife of all these years and to not be sexually validated, emotionally validated, you know, it is sort of like cold hard glass with ice behind it sort of looking in. And I just kind of imagine.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Tell me how that feels.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it is like (pause) Yeah. [00:24:46]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (laughs) Yeah. It is like, yeah, that is a pretty good description. Yeah, I guess that is how I feel. You know? Yeah.

THERAPIST: What would it be like for you to do something radical?

CLIENT: (sighs, pause) I don’t know. I think that I am probably moving to that place. You know, that there is a sense of this work, our work together, my feeling a renewed sense of some self-esteem about myself through the program here. That there is a sense of like, “Well, you know what? Yeah. You don’t need to continue doing this to yourself.”

THERAPIST: You are an attractive, extremely bright, deeply sensitive, insightful man.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: You know?

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And we don’t know I mean, of course, you know better than I. But we don’t know for sure where your wife is at because of the fear, right? [00:26:04]

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: And extreme anxiety of the wall that has built between the two of you.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And there is something very terrifying for you about knowing whatever the truth is, even though everything about you seeks the truth. There is something scary about seeking the truth here because it could be as simple and I am not trying to simplify it because I think it is very complicated as saying, “Honey, I am not happy and I want to be.”

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: “And I would like to talk to you about that.” Which is not about divorce, per se. Right?

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Maybe that is not an option. My parents separated when I was thirteen. They never got divorced.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Never. Right? And actually after their parents started dying started to be friends again. You know, but it took years. And I am not suggesting that model either.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: I am just saying, if you have all of these negative feelings about divorce, right? You know, and I do feel like you are a man with a lot of love to give and are looking for that in one form or fashion. And somebody would love to do it. Right? [00:27:09]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: I think you have to give yourself a shot at that whatever it looks like.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It may look like having conversations with your wife about what you want.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Maybe it is about actually, genuinely trying to work on your relationship. Maybe it is about finally getting answers to know this isn’t going to work. Or maybe it is about separating because you are pretty separated now.

CLIENT: (sigh)

THERAPIST: And that is the loneliest piece. You know, to be living with somebody under the guise of being with somebody but not really being with somebody is a lonely, lonely, lonely, tough place to be.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But you are not stuck.

CLIENT: No. And I think that I am feeling more and more in that place of like, yeah, you know, stuck is just a box that I put myself in. Stuck is just the story I am telling myself.

THERAPIST: But it is tough because I can see where you would feel stuck.

CLIENT: Of course.

THERAPIST: Once you have so much history with someone and you don’t want to rock the boat. And so I too in our work together am completely torn with you’re on this great And I can sort of see your future career and you are going to be great at it. I can see it ahead of you. [00:28:16]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: But what do you do then when you sit across from your clients or you sit across from your couples?

CLIENT: (sigh) Yeah.

THERAPIST: I remember I told you my Dad was therapist and he was in the process of he and my Mom were separating. And he got asked about it. And he said, “It was painful for me but I was pretty honest.” And, you know, he said, “We love each other. We don’t like each other anymore. We just don’t like each other.” And I think it was more complicated than that.

So I guess I am saying, you don’t have to stay in this place. And avoiding the hurt. It doesn’t go anywhere. It is not wallowing in it to kind of take it out and process it. But your needs, your sexual and emotional needs, psychological needs, intellectual needs are healthy, important needs. And they can’t be denied.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And when you are being constantly validated over in one area it makes the other area that much more stark. You know?

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And you cannot change her behavior but you can certainly, you know, say, “Honey, I am not happy and I really want to have some honest discussions with you.” And at least have a start. And if it doesn’t go anywhere and you keep trying well that is an answer too. I mean, what are your thoughts on what I am saying? [00:29:31]

CLIENT: I think I am (pause) You know, I think that there is part of me that is like, and I think we have explored this a little bit, but I am like I mean there is another part of me that is like, “I am not sure I want to go there.”

THERAPIST: Yeah. Tell me about that part.

CLIENT: Because what if she actually wants to work on this? (laughs)

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: It is like that is a whole lot of work I am not sure I want to do either. (laughs)

THERAPIST: So what would that be like?

CLIENT: Well, then it is just kind of like, you know, you recognize that, yeah, my perspective on this is just one perspective.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, she has a perspective.

THERAPIST: So what if she does want to work on it?

CLIENT: (sigh) Well then I feel like (pause) I think that is something that should be explored. [00:30:40]

THERAPIST: I am not talking about that. I am talking about your own real, honest reactions to that.

CLIENT: Hm. Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know what I notice?

CLIENT: Hm?

THERAPIST: You even censor your thoughts.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: And you know they are just thoughts.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: You are allowed to have whatever thoughts you want.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So you can honestly say, “You know what? There are days I wish I never married that woman.”

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Or, “There are days I wish I was divorced.”

CLIENT: Of course.

THERAPIST: But you even censor the thought and shame yourself in the process. But you can take it out and you can look at the thought. You can say it out loud sometimes. Whether it is here or whether it is by yourself or whatever. You are allowed to say, “You know, she might want to work on it and, my God, I don’t even know if I want to work on it.”

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: If she said that I might think, “Oh hell. I don’t want to work on this with you. Can’t we just end the damn thing.” You know?

CLIENT: (laughs) Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so you are allowed to but you censor your thoughts.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: You know because they are not “good” thoughts or whatever. And I don’t judge your thoughts and you shouldn’t either. You are allowed to think whatever.

CLIENT: (sigh) Yeah. That is a good point. And, yeah, and I do. You know, but I am not sure that I am able to have those thoughts without, you know. You know the guy with the stick whacking away. [00:32:00]

THERAPIST: Why not?

CLIENT: (sigh) I think that, the thought that comes to mind first is I am afraid that I am going to act on them.

THERAPIST: Okay. How many thoughts, the sort socially undesirable thoughts you have had that you have actually acted on on a consistent basis?

CLIENT: Oh yeah. No, but I am just like -

THERAPIST: But you won’t. You have control over that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It is sort of like So, my husband and I hang around a bunch of male psychologists.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: Don’t ask. Because most of my friends are psychologists. Don’t ask. And it is very interesting. They were my friends first and then they all go out with the guys, which is wonderful. And I like to be quiet and be a fly on the wall and hear them talk.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Very bright guys but a lot of times they talk about men’s response to sexual things. Right? And so it is an automatic response but these are kind of very smart, you know, fully feeling, emotional men. And then they kind of joke about it and they talk about it. You know? [00:33:04]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And they may have these thoughts that a lot of times they don’t necessarily act on but they consider it kind of part of being a male to have certain sexual thoughts that are just there. And, you know, we talk about it and I learn a lot about it and I find it really interesting. We have thoughts all the time. I joke with my students.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: If people really knew what was in your head you would have no friends at all.

CLIENT: (laughs) Exactly.

THERAPIST: But a thought is just a thought, just like any other. And it doesn’t have to. And in some ways when you censor yourself before you let it out, you know, you are hurting yourself. Because you are saying, “It is not okay for me to think this. It is not okay for me to feel this.”

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: Well then how is it really okay for you to be you? We all have undesirable thoughts half of the time. They are just thoughts.

CLIENT: Thoughts. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, that is really You know, and that is part of meditation practice is just being able to sit and be with thoughts and just allow them to be. [00:34:11]

THERAPIST: Yes, and that is why I find it fascinating that in all these areas of your life your search for truth and meaning, you know, existentialism, Taoism is so Your quest is so honest and genuine and consistent.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And yet in this area of your life, right, your search for truth is shut down prematurely because you are scared of not only your own thoughts and feelings -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: but of hers as well.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Did you ever get a chance to see that movie?

CLIENT: Not yet. Not yet.

THERAPIST: Okay. You know what? You don’t have to but every once in a while I will ask.

CLIENT: You know, and if it was convenient I would have watched it already. But I have to go to the store to rent the damn thing.

THERAPIST: You know what? I will bring it for you. I have it home. I am going to use it in a workshop I am doing on couples so I will bring it.

CLIENT: Alright. But, yeah. And I have gone through the process, because I don’t have cable television and blah, blah, blah. And Netflix, it is not on Netflix.

THERAPIST: That is interesting.

CLIENT: Not through the streaming Netflix.

THERAPIST: No, not through streaming. They don’t have good movies through streaming. So let me remind myself.

CLIENT: I would have to order it so it is not convenient. [00:35:20]

THERAPIST: I will bring it to you but if you could bring it back the next week so I can use it.

CLIENT: Oh sure, sure.

THERAPIST: Okay. (pause) So what do you think about all this?

CLIENT: Well I think that it is empowering. You know, it is empowering. You know, I think there is a certain freedom in being told by somebody that it is okay to think. To just to have the thoughts. And it is like, yeah, cognitively we know those kind of things. And we probably even tell other people those things when it is like, yeah.

And I think that trying to devise some kind of a little practice for myself whereby I can just sit with that. Can I just sit with the thought and allow it to be? And not, A, feel like schmuck for having the thought or, you know, try to suppress it. [00:36:20]

THERAPIST: I think you can accept the fact that you are a human being.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And human beings, to a greater or lesser extent depending on who you are, have socially unacceptable thoughts. Sometimes altruistic feelings, sexual feelings, physical needs, emotional needs. I mean and that just makes you a human being like the rest of us.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: And that is not only perfectly okay to be but whatever has happened to you in your life. Right? And all the history we have been through about you are sort of getting the messages about what you are not allowed to be, you still are amazingly you.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: I mean you still are a deeply feeling, thinking man.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that is why you still hurt over the fact that your relationship with you wife is not what it could be or what you would want it to be. And as painful as that is, that means that a healthy part of you is not destroyed. You are not apathetic to it. Right? And I hope that you are never apathetic to it. I mean, I hope you don’t continue to be in pain around it.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: I hope that that gets resolved one day.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But if that part of you You know, because if you think about it, you know, that has got to be one of the best parts of you, the part of you that wants to connect on a genuine level with other human beings. [00:37:33]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And that has not been damaged. It has been bruised. Right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so if you really were apathetic, how sad would that be? Because then what would you do as a counselor?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Well I am pretty sure I wouldn’t be.

THERAPIST: Well, people try to be.

CLIENT: Really.

THERAPIST: Sure. I have got stories.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: I guess the point is, you know, in some ways, even though it is scary and we can look at this more. But what do you have to lose? It is probably not going to make things worse? You know, right now it is sort of status quo. But it still eats at you.

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: And you don’t talk about it all the time but it eats at you -

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: because you want more. And after being married to someone for a long and you haven’t given up that either it could be more or that there is something else out there for you, whatever that is. Right? And maybe you don’t want more from your marriage. Maybe you grieve the fact that it wasn’t what you wanted it to be. But you will never know until you find out. [00:38:37]

CLIENT: Mm hm. Mm hm. (pause) Yeah, yeah. (pause) Well, I think that it empowers me a little bit more to at least stand there and feel like I am, you know, okay with facing this. And, yeah, I think I feel less committed to ignore and to run away. And it is like, well, even though I may not know what that means right now.

THERAPIST: Sure. Running away does not diminish your pain in this.

CLIENT: No. It hasn’t worked for me for decades. So maybe I should try something else.

THERAPIST: Any thoughts on what that might look like for you.

CLIENT: (sigh) Yeah. I think I need to spend some time just sitting with the thought of (pause) You know, it seems obvious to me that the first place is, you know, “Okay, we need to have at talk.” But I get to that place and then I am not sure I even want to have the damn talk. [00:39:57]

THERAPIST: Right. And that is honest.

CLIENT: (laughs) So then I am like, “Okay. Well tomorrow.”

THERAPIST: But it is okay to be conflicted. I don’t really think you have to know. And I don’t even know if you can. You can think, well, maybe you just have a talk and you say, “I really am not happy and we have to talk. But I don’t really know what to say because it has been so long since we have done this.” You don’t have to have the right words.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: You don’t even have to have the talk. You know?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: I guess what I am saying is you can sort of honestly look within yourself and note that you are conflicted. Part of you wants to leave it the hell alone so you don’t stir up the bees nest. Part of you may want to go in there and see what is really in there. And part of you probably really doesn’t even want to know because maybe you don’t want to put forth the effort. And all of that is okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. And it is all there.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And I tell any couple that I work with, “I really don’t need a hundred percent commitment. I need about 30 percent. Twenty Five definitely. I need a good 25 percent. And I don’t even need that every time we meet. But I need about 25 percent because who is a hundred percent committed all the time? Newlyweds maybe. So they say. Right? But that is just honest. [00:41:08]

CLIENT: Mm hm. Mm hm. Mm hm. Yeah. (pause) Yeah.

THERAPIST: How are you doing? That is a lot.

CLIENT: Yeah. It is a lot. But I don’t feel overwhelmed by that. It is kind of like, well, of course. You know? This is just one of those kind of roads that I think all you can do is just kind of keep walking toward, marching toward it. Yeah, running away, I know what that path looks like. So this is going to seem unfamiliar and, you know, I am going to feel a little tentative about this and it is okay to be in that place too.

THERAPIST: Remember, one of the best parts of you wants to connect on a genuine level with people. So why would wanting to connect with your wife be any different?

CLIENT: (sigh)

THERAPIST: I mean that would be the primary place. So that is not You know, no matter what happens whatever you decide to do. And if you do decide to have a discussion, however it goes, that is a really good healthy part. There is nothing wrong with that whatsoever. [00:42:22]

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: You may not get it back or maybe you will. I don’t know.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But that is not, you know, there is nothing wrong with that part.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. That is true enough. Then, you know, the next part of that is the actual practicalities of making that happen. It is like I think we both can become pretty adept at like Well, I will take some of blame in that. But the schedule is set up in such a way -

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: that there is just no time to schedule.

THERAPIST: Well, because it makes it easier.

CLIENT: It makes it a lot easier.

THERAPIST: That can be changed too.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: But it makes it easier.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. (pause) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think that there is that growing Probably when I allowed myself to feel it. [00:44:34]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: There is that growing sense. Probably the sense has always been there it is just allowing myself to feel the anger, the frustration. Again, because, yeah, it has always been there. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: There has always been something. There has always been one more thing.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It is like one of those bad dreams or bad movies where it is like, okay, I will just wait this out and as soon as I get to this point then it And it is just like a never ending cycle of, “Just one more thing.” And I am just like, yeah, I think I am pretty much done with this.

THERAPIST: Have you ever really grieved your marriage.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Okay. That was quick. (laughs)

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: You know, maybe you should think about that.

CLIENT: At least grieving the idea of what I wanted the marriage to be.

THERAPIST: Absolutely. You know, what is under all of that anger and resentment and frustration -

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: is all of the sadness and pain.

CLIENT: Expectations that were never met.

THERAPIST: But grieving it might allow you, if the end conclusion is to let it go and what you wanted it to be, it might allow you to let it go.

CLIENT: Well regardless, regardless, I need to let it go anyway. I need to let that, those expectations of 30 years ago.

THERAPIST: Maybe. But I don’t know if they are 30 years old.

CLIENT: No?

THERAPIST: I mean what is it you are expecting of 30 years ago? What are the things that -

CLIENT: Oh, I know. You are right (cross talking at 45:18)

THERAPIST: You expect what? Regular physical contact with your wife. Well that is pretty normal. You expect to have conversations and to be known. Well that is pretty normal. What is of 30 years ago?

CLIENT: Mm. Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Again, you have taken sort of appropriate needs and, you know in some ways blamed yourself for needing it or wanting it and saying, “Well, it is your fault because these are 30 year old needs.” They are not 30 year old needs.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, if you weren’t married to your wife and you were married to Sheila, let’s say. That is not your wife’s name is it?

CLIENT: No. (laughs)

THERAPIST: We are just putting Sheila. You know, Sheila as opposed to your wife’s name, right? The needs would be the same. You know, they would look different in some ways.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But those are just the needs that we have which is why we form long term partnerships with people in the first place in the hopes that they meet those needs.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: There is nothing wrong with needing those things. And the more you tell yourself there is, they don’t go away.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: They are not unrealistic. [00:46:22]

CLIENT: Mm hm. Yeah. If I really felt like they could go away or I could turn them off. You know? But I haven’t found that to be true. (laughs) I haven’t found that switch. You know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I don’t think there is a switch there. And if so you would be in denial. And, you know, you are not good at being in denial. I know you want to be and thank God for that.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: You know. I mean, you may try to practice denial and it may work but it is there. And I think it is because you are intuitive and you know it is there.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Yeah. And, yeah, and I think that that makes it, yeah. I can’t let it You know. And that is a good insight or that is a good way of putting that. It is kind of like once It is like the toothpaste is out of the tube. You know? It is like I can’t not see the world any other way than that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, I am honestly trying to think of the relationships, romantic relationships in my life or friendships that have been in my life. I have looked for similar things. I want to be understood. You know? I want to be validated. [00:47:34]

CLIENT: Yeah:

THERAPIST: I want to be needed depending on the type of the relationship it is.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: I want to give back to my relationships. The needs look a little different depending on who the other person is.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But the needs are very similar.

CLIENT: Sure. (pause) Yeah, yeah. (pause) Mm hm.

THERAPIST: I also wonder too if there is anything in there about if divorce is on the table are you a bad guy?

CLIENT: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean that is -

THERAPIST: So that means by staying you are a good guy.

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. You are martyring yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. Sure. You know, for my wife and for my folks. Yeah. My kids.

THERAPIST: But they don’t live your life.

CLIENT: Hm?

THERAPIST: They don’t live your life.

CLIENT: No. No. No. Yeah, but that is a pretty big mountain. [00:48:47]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, walking down the path, you know, it is like, “Whoa. Wait a minute.” I had this vision of the path which was kind of like looking into the deep dark woods. And now all of a sudden I recognize just as I get started down the path, “Woo!” There is a huge mountain in the way. (laughs)

THERAPIST: You know, years ago I worked with this client who I liked very much. He was in his early fifties and he had been married for a long time. And he and his wife had divorced. She had some substance abuse issues and he finally forced divorced. And he never saw himself as divorced.

And I remember him sitting in front of me and I said, “You know, what brings you in?” And he dissolved into sobs. And I thought, “What did I say?” And then I tried to process what happened and nothing. He just cleaned up like nothing ever happened. And I thought, “Okay. Maybe I didn’t see that.”

Then we started talking again and the same thing happened. And it turned out he had all these unresolved grief issues years, years that the very act of kind of finally sitting in front of someone and talking about it brought it up. So first we started off with his marriage which he was very upset that it didn’t work out. [00:50:00]

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: Okay. And he had sort of martyred himself a bit. And then we went into some of his issues with his parents and, you know, some of that didn’t work out the way that he wanted it to. And he was always the good guy. You know? And he always did the right thing but in a lot of ways he was miserable and pissed about it. I don’t know if he always recognized that.

You know and he was starting dating again and that kind of brought up some issues. But all these messages that he had heard about himself, you know, weren’t necessarily true. They were kind of the things that he was told because of other people’s stuff. Right? And he was really this incredible person and he just had to finally sort of let this go.

And he had been divorced for several years. You know? But it was a real struggle because he never saw himself because it involved this [identity issue.] (ph) He didn’t want to be divorced. Right? But it just got so bad, the substance issues got so bad. And, you know, I think you guys are not similar in many ways. [00:51:01]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But there are some similarities there. And I guess I am saying that to say, you know, looking at this stuff, I mean it is painful, but it doesn’t necessarily Avoiding it doesn’t provide any clarity.

CLIENT: No. And, you know, and I think also recognize it. Not that I necessarily subscribe to the medical model of addiction and all those words and everything. But it is like, yeah, I can see how my behavior provides some codependency for somebody who is also trying to avoid. And it is like, well, yeah, if somebody stopped the merry-go-round maybe it would facilitate change all the way around.

THERAPIST: And there are some real good reasons. And I mean I guess I want to acknowledge. There are some real reasons that you have avoided having this conversation. Things have taught you over time that this conversation isn’t welcome all the time, is scary. And I think that is true. [00:52:18]

But I also think that not having the conversation or sort of denying yourself the chance for understanding. You know, you are going to find clients who don’t really care about insight. Right? And that is okay. You work them with CBT, you work with them with some of the other models. Because they are not interested in knowing the why, they want to know what. Behavior is what. You kind of want to know why.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Because everything about you, all the philosophies you seek are about the “why.” And so this is the one area that your “why” is missing. And it is not that she can fill in the pieces but the possible collaboration and maybe you can fill it in yourself. But you can’t do that if you are stuck.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. (pause) Mm hm. (sigh) Yeah.

THERAPIST: How are you doing right now? That is a lot?

CLIENT: Well, yeah, you know, it’s (pause) Yeah. Just knowing that, yeah, this is like it is the 800 pound gorilla. You know? It is what I have got to do. It is the work that I have got to do. And we can talk about other peripheral things that may be related but it is like, yeah, you know what? I have just got to climb this damn mountain. You know? [00:53:43]

THERAPIST: It doesn’t have to start at the top though.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: You can start with kind of letting yourself think whatever you need to think and looking at it. It can start with, “What would you say if you wanted to say something. It doesn’t have to start with a conversation. It can start with, what would it be like to have a conversation? You don’t have to have that conversation. You don’t ever have to have that conversation but you certainly don’t have to have it any time soon. You know?

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: But thinking about having it or thinking about, if you could say anything what you would want to say and what you want to hear? You know? Entertaining in your own mind what you would like it to be. You know? Or what you are afraid might happen might be a good place.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: A little mental rehearsal.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. But I think just, you know, recognizing that it is just important to stay with. (pause) Yeah. And just being with the snake.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Being with the cobra. Whatever. It is just like I have got to be with this. You know, as opposed to running off. [00:54:48]

THERAPIST: Well I hate homework but I am going to give you homework.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: I would like for you to let your mind roam. Right? You know? If you should think back to our conversation today or think about what it would be like to talk with your wife. All of the positive, negative and every thought in between without censoring yourself. And if you do catch yourself censoring you I would like to hear about it. What are the areas that you most censor yourself?

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: You know, and what feelings come up? Is it because you are about to have a thought that you deemed shameful? So I just would like for you to be aware of the kind of meta cognition piece of what your thoughts are and how often during the day you tell yourself not to have particular thoughts.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And maybe we can just be aware of that.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And I have, actually I picked up a dedicated notebook to start journaling.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I used to do that kind of thing anyway. So it is like, okay.

THERAPIST: Okay. Let me know how that works.

CLIENT: Yeah. I will see. You know, I am really trying and I feel like it has not been Interestingly enough it has not been something that has worked well for me.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It may not be your thing. Maybe instead you go out to your, you know, is it like a workshop? And do something with your hands.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 56:15)

THERAPIST: But journaling, you know, you can see if that works. You know, it works for some people. Some people it is just not their thing.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST:: Wherever you can let your mind roam freely.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think that, yeah. I will see where it goes.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I also need to let go of the story of, “You don’t know how to journal.” Or, “You are not doing it right.” Or whatever.

THERAPIST: Oh, definitely.

CLIENT: So it is just going to be allowing yourself to think and process on paper the way that you do that.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And I know that sometimes it looks like a lot of scribbles and circles and pictures and stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Don’t censor yourself as you journal.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Just let it go.

CLIENT: It is like, “Oh, but my journal doesn’t sound like Anne Frank.” (laughs)

THERAPIST: (laughs) Let’s hope not.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: Okay. So we are on for next week. There is -

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