TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: …I’m going to put my faith in them too because I don’t think we can take too much more of this. So how are you?

CLIENT: I think I’m doing okay.

THERAPIST: Okay. And I forgot the movie of course.

CLIENT: That’s okay.

THERAPIST: I had a little Post-it Note but it didn’t make it to the car.

CLIENT: Too bad. No, I feel like it was, good is not a good word, but a couple of watershed moments over the week.

THERAPIST: Oh do tell.

CLIENT: I think that the first one was after class. I had a discussion with a friend after class and the conversation revolved around pets and pets’ response to you. And she was saying that we were kind of talking about feelings and having gone through this process of being more in touch and more in tune with your feelings, she said it changed the way her animals responded to her. [0:01:13]

THERAPIST: Interesting. How so?

CLIENT: They can pick up on the feelings.

THERAPIST: Yes, they always can.

CLIENT: So they now, she seems to feel that they know before she even knows that she’s sad or whatever. So she just noticed that in her animals and I was discussing how it feels like, I was kind of joking that yes, my dog, she just when I first come in she just runs up puts her nose against my leg and goes oh it’s him, okay. And then what she said to me was maybe she doesn’t know that you’re there. And I know that there’s this whole thing going on that when I’m not there the dog lays around and mopes. And so I’m the alpha dog and when I come home she just needs to know that I’m there and it’s all good. But what I really was hearing and what I took from that was maybe she doesn’t sense that you’re there. Maybe she can’t pick up on those feelings. [0:02:21]

THERAPIST: And we’re still talking about the dog?

CLIENT: No. Of course not. So then it was what I sensed after that, it was in that moment, it’s one of those kind of time standing still moments, like that slip on the ice, land on your back and knock the wind out of you. It kind of took my breath away and I said oh my God, what if I’m really not there? Just in terms of of course I’m not there. If I can’t be with my feelings, you’ve shut off this huge part of you. And what if the dog really doesn’t know that you’re there? Those kind of feelings but certainly I’m not as much there as I could be. You know, it’s just that real, that reality, that sense of like – yes, it was just that insight, big insight. [0:03:22]

THERAPIST: And what did you take that to mean for your life?

CLIENT: That being in touch with feelings and embracing that. I guess where I went with that then just kind of making that commitment to sit with whatever the feeling was that was coming at the time. And I recognized that it didn’t take long before I was like holy crap, I’m in this place of all these feelings. [0:04:04].

THERAPIST: What feelings?

CLIENT: Anger, fear, confusion, those –

[Phone rings]

THERAPIST: Oh I’m sorry. I keep forgetting to turn that off.

CLIENT: That’s okay. All those things that kind of things that are coming at me and I just kind of sat with that on Friday. And then got up early on Saturday, too early, went to the Y to work out and then didn’t come home until 7:00. So I had a half hour to park near the Y with a three-mile track around it out in the woods. It’s a nice area and I was doing this power walk around there and I was energized by that. I was mentally in my mind. At some point I said yes, you know what I’m drawing a line in the sand. I’m not –

THERAPIST: What’s the line?

CLIENT: going to – I’m not – I think that when I recognized or identified that it’s a commitment to authenticity. No, I got to be with whatever it is. I’ve got to let go of the old habits and patterns of how to deal with feelings and – it’s like that old metaphor of sitting with the snake. [0:05:28]

THERAPIST: Yes, right. I mean it sounds like a pretty powerful moment.

CLIENT: It was, yes. And it was again another one of those kind of like – it’s still close enough event to me to have that sense of feeling, of being in the park. I remember the conversation; I remember the park. It’s like snapshot moments. So there’s the commitment to that –

THERAPIST: What will change for you then? What will be different?

CLIENT: Well then coming back home from the Y, I was energized and recognizing that the closer and closer I got to home wow all of this anger is kind of building up. And I said okay, I’m just going to be with this. And coming into the house and I said okay. [0:06:21]

And so it didn’t take long before what’s wrong? And I recognized that there was a big part of me that said nothing. I didn’t go there but I know those patterns, I know what to do, I know what to say to be inauthentic. And so eventually I got to be able to this place of just sitting with it and calmly sitting with it enough that I’m like yes, it’s part of the stuff that I’m working through. I’m –

THERAPIST: Tell me what you were sitting with. What were you feeling?

CLIENT: Oh, it’s difficult to – just the image of my mind is the big soup pot on the stove. And you can tell it’s boiling, you know the lids on it kind of thing and just lifting it up enough to know that there’s –

THERAPIST: Steam coming up. [0:07:27]

CLIENT: Yes. So the anger and wow this is not just, there’s not a particular incident, it’s all of the stuff. It’s all of this anger. And I recognize that I’m not going to run away from it but I’m also not sure I can open the lid on this right now. So it’s okay.

THERAPIST: Can you tell me what you think is in the pot?

CLIENT: Oh years of built up anger.

THERAPIST: Tell me about it. Let’s name it. [0:08:01]

CLIENT: Angry at being, the feeling of being stuck in this relationship; anger of betrayal, feeling like you’ve been betrayed. So there’s that –

THERAPIST: There’s more.

CLIENT: Yes, whatever. Anger probably going all the way back to being a kid. Anger about not being able to just be angry or whatever.

THERAPIST: What else?

CLIENT: I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Seamus, how would I know you’re angry? What would it look like?

CLIENT: Yes, I’m not quite sure I’m there yet.

THERAPIST: Where would you have to be for me to know you’re angry?

CLIENT: [Pause] I don’t know. But I do know that it’s kind of like that same sense of being angry.

THERAPIST: So even in the process of discussing anger it becomes intellectualized.

CLIENT: Yes and no. I spent the weekend in tears, not a lot but –

THERAPIST: Yes, tell me about that.

CLIENT: on the verge of tears and I’m just again trying not to intellectualize that too much but just okay, I’m just going to sit with this, whatever this is. [0:09:42]

THERAPIST: And what was it? What brought you to tears?

CLIENT: Maybe tapping into loneliness, tapping into, or you know, yes sadness. Again, anger and sadness about –

THERAPIST: Any grief there?

CLIENT: Yes, maybe. Maybe. Yes, there’s maybe that too. Knowing that I didn’t really spend a lot of time trying to name stuff as much as just trying to sit with it, yes. So –

THERAPIST: You’ve been busy.

CLIENT: Well yes. So knowing that that, yes, is a lot of what was going on.

THERAPIST: So what does it feel like to talk about this? What do you feel?

CLIENT: Oh I’m feeling energized, committed, whatever. I’m okay with that. Knowing that yes, I’m not exactly sure what it looks like necessarily to be angry can I feel that? It’s getting closer. I have a – I will back up just a second because I, in coming back I was able to not only did I not go down the path of denying what I was feeling, but I was able to make some inroads in terms of saying what I was feeling. [0:11:38]

THERAPIST: That’s pretty fantastic. To yourself.

CLIENT: No, to Mary.

THERAPIST: Oh my gosh.

CLIENT: So it’s like here’s the deal. I’m doing some -

THERAPIST: Whoa. Let’s go back. What happened?

CLIENT: Well I was really I was committed to staying with that. Even though it was a little bit frightening I said, okay I just need to just be with this. Not in any kind of accusatory place but okay, well I know from the program, from this work of whatever, self-discovery that I’m doing that I know that it’s really important for me to just be with my feelings right now. All I can tell you is that I’m just feeling a lot of anger right now and this is where I can be with that. [0:12:29]

THERAPIST: This is what you said to her?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: And then it was kind of that sense of I don’t really remember the question but it was a probing question and in terms of it was a question that was going to, it required me to, like a self-revelation kind of thing. It was a deeper [0:13:02]

THERAPIST: She asked you?

CLIENT: Yes and I recognized at the moment I can’t go there. So what I was able to say to her was I said well one of the things that I’ve learned through the program is that in order for that kind of communication to happen there has to be an alliance, there has to be this trust relationship there. And she was able to get it. She said so you’re not feeling like you can trust me? And I said yes, I can’t.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: So -

THERAPIST: And that was received how?

CLIENT: I think it was, my guess just in terms of being together for 27 years, it was that moment of panic and fear probably, probably maybe a sense of wanting to close down from that a little bit.

THERAPIST: Her?

CLIENT: Yes. I’m just guessing. And I was also, we were also, it wasn’t like a conversation too much but it was recognizing I think she did say something about recognizing that the state of our relationship being what it is. You know it’s like we talk about it without talking about it, that kind of thing. We never really talk about it but there’s a recognition that it’s not what it’s supposed to be. [0:14:43]

THERAPIST: From her as well as you?

CLIENT: Yes. And I was just able to say yes, you know it’s a huge knotted ball of twine and it didn’t get this way overnight. And it’s going to take a lot to try to untangle this and I’m just not sure where that’s going to go. And then able to kind of and then there was this sense, I wish that I had a tape recorder in my head to kind of be able to kind of replay that and look at it, but there was more of a sense of like the way that I felt it was, well I’m, from her, well I’m hopeful that this process or this program will help you and I get closer together. [0:15:31]

THERAPIST: She said that?

CLIENT: Yes. And I felt this instantaneous sort of being angry about that because what it felt to me was I’m sure that once you get fixed everything will be fine. And so I was able to just say well this is my journey and this is my path and we all have a path that we need to walk. And it was about as far as I could go with that. And, so that was it felt empowering to be in that place and it was not tremendously scary, but I was in this place of I had a real burn on coming back from the Y and I said I’m okay. The line’s in the sand; I’m not crossing back. [0:16:33]

THERAPIST: That’s pretty incredible. That’s pretty amazing.

CLIENT: I think so and I’ve really and I get that; I’m not knocking it down.

THERAPIST: Yes but that’s not I never expected that you would come back and say that you and your wife began talking. When you started you sort of, it’s a sort of self-process. You should be pretty incredibly proud of yourself. That took a lot of guts to even bring it up. It’s interesting your interpretation of her response. Your immediate sort of emotion was anger and your sort of interpretation of her response was sort of like you need to get fixed and we’ll be okay. From an outsider’s point of view I would not have, that’s not what I initially would’ve thought. Now you have obviously much more data than I do. [0:17:23]

CLIENT: Well yes, and it’s data. It’s past experiences; it’s too many. It’s too many of those scenarios in the past where everything will be just fine once you figure out how to open up and share your feelings and you do this and you do this. Again, that’s my interpretation of how I’m interpreting that communication and there’s always two sides to the story.

THERAPIST: But while she acknowledged the problem, not, no, she acknowledged a problem.

CLIENT: A problem.

THERAPIST: Yes, that there is a problem. Wow.

CLIENT: Yes. So, but the what I yes.

THERAPIST: You put yourself out there. That’s a pretty intimate thing to do, to sort of not only allow yourself to be in the moment emotionally which can be very scary, but also to take it and it sort of provoked you to action. You did something with it. You had a conversation about it in a very honest way. That’s significant, Seamus. [0:18:39]

CLIENT: Yes, and I really do feel like there has been some click in terms of it’s just like the it’s almost like that sense of Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz. Once you know that the little old guy is behind the curtains, you can go back. It’s like okay, this is it; you’ve got to be authentic. And it’s not an academic exercise. [0:19:14]

THERAPIST: No it’s not.

CLIENT: This has to be. And I feel like I also recognize that I don’t know where this is going to lead.

THERAPIST: Okay. Where do you think it will take you? And not necessarily the relationship but take you?

CLIENT: I think it’s going to take me to incredible places because I’m, just in a couple of days of just experimenting with this, trying to be with this it just feels like oh, this is great.

THERAPIST: But your first word, I find it very interesting. Your first word is that it was energizing, not draining or your first response wasn’t that it was scary although I’m sure parts of it probably were -

CLIENT: Not nearly as scary as you had played it out in your head. But I think it I don’t know.

THERAPIST: What allowed you to do all that? [0:20:10]

CLIENT: That’s a good question. I think it’s probably been cumulative. I think it’s probably been cumulative. I think it has been the influence of this work; it’s been the influence of being a part of this program. All of these little it’s kind of like Jenga, eventually something gets pulled and everything falls.

THERAPIST: Does your wife know you’re in counseling?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Okay. Have you had any conversations not about the content but about you said I’m going to counseling and she had a response to that?

CLIENT: Well I think there is that sense of I think that there’s again I think she’d like to know more about that but I’m not in a place of being able to do that.

THERAPIST: Yes. Well, your sessions are private. [0:21:12]

CLIENT: Yes and even but I don’t know that they would necessarily have to be if the relationship was in a different place.

THERAPIST: You know as you’re talking and even kind of looking at you physically whenever we bring up your wife or sort of her interest in let’s say your sessions or telling you something, your first instinct is to protect yourself.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: I mean, do you notice that?

CLIENT: Oh yes.

THERAPIST: You do it physically, you jerk kind of a bit and your first instinct is to be kind of no, she’s not getting any information about this, or -

CLIENT: It’s been a lot of years.

THERAPIST: It has been.

CLIENT: It’s been a lot of years and I think that I recognize that again trying to stay with that big pot of emotions it’s like yes, and I’m trying not to be too much in the place of blaming because I recognize who is the guy that’s been putting the lid on this. But I’m like dammit I’m yes, there’s going to be in order for that relationship to I don’t it’ll never go back to what it was and I wouldn’t want it to but in order for that relationship to be a quote producing relationship there’s going to have to be a hell of a lot of work. And I can’t do that by myself. [0:22:43]

THERAPIST: No, but you really don’t trust her with your feelings.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: It sounds like you’ve been shut down too many times.

CLIENT: And so you put it out there just a little bit and I recognize that’s it’s I’m not maybe being fair but it’s little things like we had the opportunity, we had the opportunity to drive back together from Indiana University, which is a three-hour -

THERAPIST: Okay, that’s about four, three or four [0:23:18]

CLIENT: Two and a half hours of driving, maybe three.

THERAPIST: To drive there and back?

CLIENT: To drive back. And again I’m not asking her to but she says, you know she knows what the conditions are.

THERAPIST: Conditions?

CLIENT: In terms of we had the opportunity to drive back together. We have had this hint of a conversation last Saturday, which it’s not like a written invitation but it’s a pretty big overture on my part.

THERAPIST: You want her to pick it up and do something with it. [0:24:04]

CLIENT: And she’s choosing to drive back with her best friend.

THERAPIST: Oh boy.

CLIENT: So I said, okay -

THERAPIST: How did that feel?

CLIENT: Well, I was able to just be with that. A friend of mine recently said sometimes you just got to embrace the suck. [Laughs]

THERAPIST: Well sometimes you do but did no part of you want to say well now wait a minute?

CLIENT: No. To be honest with you, no. I said I’m not going there. If you don’t want to f***king ride back with me fine. I’m not going to change.

THERAPIST: You know there are a lot of misses I think that are happening.

CLIENT: A lot of?

THERAPIST: Misses, you keep missing one another. And some of it’s by tacit agreement. I’m sure there’s a huge part of you that’s happy to drive back on your own, and then on the other hand it’s kind of like now we just started something here and you deliberately didn’t see the opportunity or ran from the opportunity and I guess I’d be feeling mixed feelings. One, I’m relieved, I don’t have to do this with you, or two, you just validated everything I ever thought about you. Or three, and then it would also hurt. [0:25:19]

CLIENT: Can I have all three of those?

THERAPIST: You can have them all because -

CLIENT: This is not like Let’s Make a Deal? [Laughs]

THERAPIST: No. I think you can have them all and I think I’d be feeling all those things -

CLIENT: Yes I do.

THERAPIST: that here you go again; you kind of really do some workaround. And this work has been years in coming to kind of allow yourself to be in an emotional place, really get in touch with all of the pain and sort of discomfort those feelings bring, and to say something about it. And then, and again it’s received but it’s not furthered.

CLIENT: No and again I’m trying not to be in this place of setting up the rules of the game and then not telling anybody. It’s like well, I didn’t put it out there; I’d like to continue this conversation. I just put that out there. So [0:26:22]

THERAPIST: But we always have hopes don’t we? We always kind of hope or wish I remember, for example my husband and I got into some kind of argument or whatever and we were really getting on each other’s nerves so I went upstairs. And I thought to myself now part of me wants to be alone from you while you have your grumpy self downstairs and I’m upstairs. And I thought but it’s probably better for the relationship if you either come up here or I go down there. And he came up and said do you want to watch a movie, which is his repair effort, and I said okay, I’ll be down in a minute, and I went downstairs. So that means he was the mature one in that situation.

But I thought, I remember thinking about it and I think what happened there was a miss. You had a connection, which you haven’t had in a while where there was a conversation, some potential for some intimacy, even kind of just starting, and then the hope was that she would do something with that, like I made an effort here; not only I hope you recognize how hard this is for me but then you also make an effort. I’m not talking huge expectations here. And then unfortunately your hope, your wish did not come true, which sometimes makes you go okay, I was right. [0:27:36]

CLIENT: Yes and I think what it does for me is just there’s that inclination to shut down.

THERAPIST: Sure absolutely.

CLIENT: And it’s trying to remain open to that and open to feelings in the face of that is the challenge; that’s the work.

THERAPIST: Well I think your physical reaction to the thought of going deep with her is visceral, which tells me how deep the wound is. I mean that tells me you have felt slapped down any time you’ve been vulnerable and you say absolutely not. Even the way you talk about your feelings with her in this instance over the weekend is informative but it’s not inviting her to not only comfort you because you don’t trust that she will or can do that, it’s not inviting her to even participate, it’s informing her which is a power position. It’s like I’m going to tell you how I feel but I’m not going to invite you to experience it with me. And that tells me there’s such a long history of your feeling shut down, misunderstood and deeply hurt that you do not trust that she can handle your basic feelings at all. [0:28:50]

CLIENT: Yes, that pretty much nails it down. You hit it there.

THERAPIST: I mean you have described it as the kind of the force field.

CLIENT: Yes, yes it is. [0:29:09]

THERAPIST: And the fact that she chose to drive back with the best friend, which is a point of contention already. Not only did you it’s not that you chose to stay longer or drive back alone. You chose to drive back with this other person who you are sharing intimate things with. I mean that’s another, it’s another miss.

CLIENT: Yes and I was like, Friday night so we don’t really, I mean there’s a couple of spaces that she puts on the calendar for us to do things. And I recognize that’s a coping mechanism, it’s like if I fill up the calendar so full then you and I can have coffee, literally you and I can have coffee for 10 or 15 minutes before I have to go to work on some days, that doesn’t allow us any time to have any kind of a conversation. I mean maybe we can hit the highlights of what has to be done today [0:30:10]

THERAPIST: Is that what it’s -

CLIENT: That’s what it is, yes. And then now that the kids are gone and I’m at school, that changes up the pattern of things, we can have dinner out on Wednesday nights.

THERAPIST: Before choir practice.

CLIENT: Before choir practice.

THERAPIST: So you can’t really get anything -

CLIENT: So there’s a limited period of time -

THERAPIST: Your [fizz was slot] (ph) -

CLIENT: Got to go. And then, okay so on the books, we had this, she wanted to go see this big band that was playing in a restaurant down in Limestone. So it’s like, okay. One of the friends from school’s got a big band and so we wanted to go support them and go see the big band. We’re getting ready to go out and she says well Lisa’s husband’s gone for the weekend; I invited her to come along too. And I’m like -

THERAPIST: Oh Steve.

CLIENT: [Laughing] son of a bitch. It’s just and I said sure, whatever.

THERAPIST: But that’s not okay with you. [0:31:14]

CLIENT: Well I’ve just gotten to the place now where before it wasn’t okay. And now the relationship’s strained so bad that she might as well come along because -

THERAPIST: Right. Yes. And I do get that. That part of you is sort of relieved, and part of you also pissed and part of you is just kind of accepting it. But you’re still angry about it.

CLIENT: I’m angry because now, to be honest with you and honest with myself, because now I’m f***king stuck in a relationship like this. [Laughing] And I stuck is -

THERAPIST: No but stuck, that’s the first time you’ve said that. How did that feel to say?

CLIENT: Oh, you know it’s just the reality of what it is right now. It doesn’t necessarily have to be that way forever but I recognize that that’s my condition. I’m stuck right now.

THERAPIST: You feel stuck. You’re not stuck. [0:32:18]

CLIENT: No, but I’ve felt stuck for a hell of a long time.

THERAPIST: Yes but you haven’t sort of spoken the truth in the air and felt all the things with it.

CLIENT: No, not so much and I think that the weekend, that moment over in the park. It’s like I’m done feeling this.

THERAPIST: Yes, so that means you’re not stuck any more.

CLIENT: No, I’m not stuck any more. I’m yes, you know what? I need to figure out whatever strategies I need to do to get myself unstuck.

THERAPIST: Because you don’t want this anymore.

CLIENT: I don’t want this anymore.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: So I don’t know where that goes. And for me all options are on the table. I don’t all I know is I’m done with the old shit.

THERAPIST: And the old shit that you’re done with is?

CLIENT: Just going back into that place of I’m going to deny my feelings and I’m going to say that this is okay and go into this place of stasis or something. I said no. [0:33:33]

THERAPIST: You’re done with that. I see that, which means you’re not silenced any more.

CLIENT: No I don’t really think so. I recognize that it’s emerging; it’s new. I’m not necessarily afraid of it but I also recognize that there’s a certain wisdom that I’m wanting to bring with it. It’s like, okay, it’s okay. It’s sort of like the dog that’s been chained to the barn all of its life and somebody lets it go, there’s this inclination for it to just run like hell. [0:34:13]

THERAPIST: And what would that look like for you?

CLIENT: I mean there’s an initial euphoria.

THERAPIST: Yes, what’s the fantasy? If you could have no restrictions what would you do now? No restrictions, no guilt restrictions, no commitment restrictions what would you do?

CLIENT: You know I recognize, really as much as I sit in this little cell of enjoying putting on the clothing of not good enough and low self-esteem, it’s like shit, I’m a pretty good guy and there’s a hell of a lot of people out there that I know I can connect with. Yes, can I allow myself just to say that? Can I allow myself to run free off the chain?

THERAPIST: Yes, at least in the fantasy. [0:35:22]

CLIENT: Yes, I’d find a relationship where I could explore. And I’m not talking [sexualizing it] (ph); I’m talking about I just want to be known by somebody. I want to know somebody else.

THERAPIST: But what if sexual intimacy was part of that? That doesn’t have to be, I mean that’s a normal part of life.

CLIENT: Yes, and I would be okay with that. But I think for me right now that, that need -

THERAPIST: The need to be known.

CLIENT: is even deeper than the sexual piece. I recognize that the sexual piece is there and that I don’t want to deny that either but I’m just saying I need some water first [laughs] and then we can deal with other things. So, yes, that’s the fantasy piece. Can I imagine that fantasy piece in the relationship that I currently have? Not right now. Does that mean that it could never happen again? I’m not sure. I’m open to that possibility maybe. I mean if I have to put a percentage on there maybe I’m 10% open to that right now. I mean there would have to be some serious work in terms of trust being built back up again. I at this point don’t see the possibility of that happening but maybe it does. [0:36:53]

THERAPIST: You’ve done some amazing work. I mean this is all sort of really brave stuff. You’ve really had to get down there and sort of get into the guts of the thing.

CLIENT: Well maybe that’s where you get after you wallow in it for years.

THERAPIST: Well, wallow. I hope there’s no self-judgment there. You feel kind of what you feel.

CLIENT: No I don’t necessarily, I don’t think that it’s a I’m not yes, that wasn’t necessarily meant to be a knocking myself kind of a thing but -

THERAPIST: So embracing your feelings is empowering. [0:37:36]

CLIENT: Yes, I think so. A little frightening but empowering.

THERAPIST: Yes because feelings are probably the most real part of us. They’re the most honest as long as you don’t judge them or try to rationalize them out they just are.

CLIENT: And I think that, I think over the weekend I was hugely grateful or leaning on my meditation practice because it allowed me to stay in the moment and okay this is the skill that I didn’t have before. I didn’t know how to do that before. I just ran like hell or I put the lid on it or whatever. [0:38:21]

THERAPIST: Well and you know why you ran like hell?

CLIENT: I don’t know, because I didn’t want to be hurt.

THERAPIST: Well not just that. I mean you were already hurt but the experiencing it and looking at it you were always told whether through words or actions something is wrong with you if you feel this way or you shouldn’t feel this way or feelings aren’t important or don’t show us your feelings. And that message got repeated from childhood through adulthood. And you realized, we were talking about scripts that aren’t true, it’s not true. Your feelings are and we talked a lot several weeks ago about you being a deeply feeling man.

CLIENT: Yes, and I think that it helped be able to get in touch with that.

THERAPIST: It’s a gift, Seamus. [0:39:15]

CLIENT: Yes, I think I’m starting to appreciate that. I think I’m starting to appreciate that and recognizing it’s who do I connect with. Other people that have deep feelings. I haven’t found too many guys that have deep feelings that I can connect with. The only one that I did three years ago told me he’s trans. I said oh shit, crap, cross that one off the list. [Laughing]

THERAPIST: Well there are if you look at remember when we talked about Jung (ph) and his work? You will find that most of them are male psychologists. But they’re out there.

CLIENT: No, I believe that. I do believe that. It’s just that they’re not in my immediate circle of people. And I think that once I put the intention out there that I throw that out into the universe, they’ll start showing. [0:40:18]

THERAPIST: What about in this group that you’re a part of, the men’s group?

CLIENT: I think that that could happen except for physical distance. These guys are up in Shorewood and I’m down here in Limestone. We get together every six months. So it’s more like, I see it more like a quasi-supervision group almost. We get together and we kind of check in. It’s a place to kind of connect for an hour or two and then -

THERAPIST: Okay. APA has a division on men, the psychology of men.

CLIENT: Well, Manz’s (ph) coming on Tuesday so I’m going to that. And I think Peterson’s also talked about the fact that I might be able to, there might be some connection there. We’ll see, we’ll see what happens. See if there is a connection. I might end up working or doing something in that field too.

THERAPIST: Well that would be great. That’s a lot of work in a very short amount of time. I mean you’ve been really working very hard. [0:41:32]

CLIENT: But I get the motivation. I ain’t going to be no counselor if I can’t figure this out. If I -

THERAPIST: Well you could be. You’d just be one type of counselor.

CLIENT: Yes, well it’s not the kind of counselor I want to be. Okay, I get it. Authenticity; it ain’t going to happen unless you’re authentic.

THERAPIST: What have you learned about yourself through this?

CLIENT: [Pause] Well I think that it’s being able to kind of look at, kind of step back and say this pattern really isn’t all that much different. Whenever I choose to take on a project, I’m going to figure out what needs to be done and I’m going to surround myself with a network of people to help me figure out how to get this thing done. And we’re going to do it and it’s going to get done well. And there’s a certain perseverance involved. Yes. [0:42:41]

THERAPIST: And that’s what you do? You’re just now your own project?

CLIENT: Yes. I think so. Sometimes I often go back to the project of building the house. There was a whole lot of well that was a really -

THERAPIST: Did you participate in building your house?

CLIENT: I built my house. [0:43:07]

THERAPIST: I don’t think I knew that.

CLIENT: And it was like okay I’ve got a little bit of background, a little bit of background on how to build a house. I’m an Industrial Arts teacher so I told myself that I knew how to build a house. I know how to read a print; I never built a house before.

THERAPIST: But you have now. You built your house.

CLIENT: I put together a team of people and I learned everything I needed to know and I built the damn house. So I got a track record; I can do this.

THERAPIST: Did that, have you ever processed the fact that you built your own house?

CLIENT: Oh yes.

THERAPIST: Have you?

CLIENT: I think so.

THERAPIST: Really? That’s quite the analogy.

CLIENT: Oh, well maybe I didn’t process it.

THERAPIST: I don’t think you did. You decided you were going to build your own house and you built your own house. And then your family lived there. You never built a house before. So you started from scratch, some knowledge; are you happy with the product?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: What do you like best about the house? [0:44:28]

CLIENT: Well I can also go down the road about all the things I don’t like about the house, but I think for me it just, it symbolizes that sense of a project undertaken.

THERAPIST: How many bedrooms?

CLIENT: There are four.

THERAPIST: Okay, what’s the layout of the house?

CLIENT: It’s a basic it’s kind of a farmhouse-like looking thing, so it’s big, wraparound front porch.

THERAPIST: Did you design it?

CLIENT: Yes. We took a design that we found in a home book and kind of altered a few things here and there and -

THERAPIST: Steve what made you think you could build a house?

CLIENT: I built a bunch of little shit in the workshop. [Laughing] I don’t know. [0:45:21]

THERAPIST: That’s not the same thing as building a house.

CLIENT: No it’s not.

THERAPIST: You know, I think you have to -

CLIENT: I don’t know. I don’t know what made me think I could do it.

THERAPIST: So the next time you go for -

CLIENT: I built a backyard shed prior to that. [Laughter]

THERAPIST: I think the next time you have a quiet moment, I think you really now have to look at what building your house from scratch meant. Like you just decided to build a damn house. So why -

CLIENT: Well it was building a house but it was also building a cottage industry.

THERAPIST: Okay, but you never built a house before, right? So whatever you put your mind to you seem to be very successful at it, right? And if you can build a house from scratch, what can you do with yourself? I mean there are countless of examples that counter the negative scripts and we just continue to discover. You built a freaking house. Well that’s pretty significant. [0:46:37]

CLIENT: No and I think that you asked how does this impact, how is this getting in touch with your feelings and I think that what kind of it does somehow. It’s like pulling back the veil; I get that. Yes, there’s a lot of shit there to celebrate; there’s a lot of good stuff there and I can go with that. [0:47:04]

THERAPIST: It’s like rebuilding your house from the inside. I mean it’s sort of like really looking at what’s inside, what the patterns are, what it feels like, what it looks like, embracing, accepting what’s on the inside.

CLIENT: Yes, and again I’m kind of employing some of those same patterns that I did before. I need help doing this; I’ve got to surround myself with people who know how to do this. I’m not sure I could’ve built the house all by myself but having a network of people that can aid me in doing that kind of thing. Not, yes I could do it by myself. I’m sure eventually I could figure this thing out but I like the energy of working with a team.

THERAPIST: Well and you don’t have to build anything by yourself. You can but you certainly don’t have to.

CLIENT: So, yes.

THERAPIST: That’s pretty incredible. [0:48:10]

CLIENT: And also just like had this thought of wow, that there’s a lot of anger just sitting there for another time. Like, when we moved from that house over to Bradley-

THERAPIST: From the house you built to Bradley?

CLIENT: so that the kids could be in the other school district and so my wife could be closer to her best friend. [Laughs]

THERAPIST: You always laugh. You know what? I’ve come to learn that that’s where the anger is. Whenever you laugh like that, usually there’s some hurt or some anger there.

CLIENT: Yes, I know. Thanks, but, yes that’s yes.

THERAPIST: So tell me, so you built the house and you moved.

CLIENT: Well I built the house, then I built the house, I was working as a teacher, then I was kind of moving toward setting up cottage industry. So I got my furniture building business in the garage so I’m there when the kids I can get the kids off to school in the morning, I’m there when they come home so it was just like this whole little dream that I had created. And then it was we made the decision that my daughter it wasn’t working out in the school district or the school system where she was at so it was try to figure out how to plug her into the other one, which precipitated buying a house. And then eventually it was like oh now it’s a 25 minute drive from the house to the school and then this is getting crazy and [0:49:56]

THERAPIST: How did you feel about those decisions?

CLIENT: Oh my God. It was I was in the pit for a while.

THERAPIST: Meaning?

CLIENT: Depressed, angry.

THERAPIST: So this was not a decision you wanted to make.

CLIENT: It was a decision that, yes it seemed like the best thing to do for my daughter but it was, yes I was letting go of my house and my dream and -

THERAPIST: And there was no discussion of your letting go of the house and the dream?

CLIENT: Well I would have to really dig up those memories again because I’ve sat on all I -

THERAPIST: But you haven’t sat on the feelings because that’s so after you build the house, the family moves into the house and then the family moves back out of the house. That’s a rejection of the house, of what you built.

CLIENT: And it was probably a little bit more personal than that.

THERAPIST: Yes, so tell me about that.

CLIENT: You know I think at the point when we did make the move over, that this, the friendship had started to build. So that there was this sense of, for me even though it wasn’t spoken, there was this sense of this is just damned inconvenient. There’s a half an hour drive that’s going to have to take place if you’re going to go from one person’s house to the other house. And that’s like so I knew that I felt, I didn’t know, I felt that there was another motivation for moving out of the house along with getting the kids over into the school district. [0:51:50]

And then when the kids were out of the school district and we no longer needed to be over there, then moving back out to the house there was almost that sense of resistance in terms of like -

THERAPIST: Which is a rejection of the house that you built for your family.

CLIENT: Which I take a little bit more personally. [Laughs]

THERAPIST: Well yes because it’s, I mean it’s pretty symbolic of everything, as is your going along with the decisions but not really feeling included in making kind of being forced feeling like you’re forced into making these decisions and you never got to vent your feelings about them. [0:52:25]

CLIENT: I never allowed myself or if I you know what, I think that I did but there was that there was always this cold sense of logic like well this is the best decision kind of, what other choice, so -

THERAPIST: But then you have to buy a house that somebody else built to live in when you built your house for your family’s needs. That’s pretty deep, which is why every time you go home you feel a sense of anger because the symbols are everywhere.

CLIENT: Well and my business remained at my house so -

THERAPIST: That’s right, so you had to go back to the house -

CLIENT: so I had to drive back to an empty house every day and, yes. So that was six years of yes. [0:53:14]

THERAPIST: So that’s a lot.

CLIENT: Six year of going through that and the relationship and it’s just like yes, you know what? That’s enough, I’m done, I’m done with that. It’s just coming to that place of recognizing that I’m done with that. I’m done with -

THERAPIST: There’s a lot there.

CLIENT: being a floor mat.

THERAPIST: There’s a lot there. How are you doing right now?

CLIENT: I’m doing okay. I really am. I’m doing okay. I don’t know where this goes but I’m doing okay. I’m going to be okay with this.

THERAPIST: Well that I know. You know, again, you’ve done some amazing work pretty quickly and I’m proud of you. I hope you’re proud of yourself.

CLIENT: I do feel that, yes.

THERAPIST: I remember your first session, first or second session, talking a little bit about the anger and you said no, we’re not doing that, we’re not going there and you did it a lot. Good for you.

CLIENT: Well I knew that that was the issue.

THERAPIST: Sure. Really, you were always honest about it. [0:54:14]

CLIENT: But, yes. So yes I know that we got a couple of weeks off.

THERAPIST: We do because next week you’re gone, the week after that I’m up at the no that’s February, but the next Tuesday -

CLIENT: I think it’s actually the 18th of March.

THERAPIST: I do think it is the 18th of March. Yes, okay, we’re back.

CLIENT: Yes, so we’ll see if I can sustain this, maintain this for a couple of weeks.

THERAPIST: You know sometimes there’s not once you sort of walk through a door with certain things you can’t go back and I don’t think you’ll be going back.

CLIENT: I don’t feel that sense and it’s not a sense of there’s a certain layer of yes, it’s lighter to walk. There’s a why would I want to pick that up again.

THERAPIST: Good for you. Well it would be interesting to hear what happens over the next couple of weeks as you kind of continue to stay in the moment.

CLIENT: Yes, and that’s the other challenge just to be with that and to -

THERAPIST: You unstuck yourself. [0:55:22]

CLIENT: explore what that can mean for me.

THERAPIST: You know that, right? You unstuck yourself.

CLIENT: Yes. I know. I don’t feel stuck. I don’t know where I’m going -

THERAPIST: That’s fine.

CLIENT: but I don’t feel stuck.

THERAPIST: That’s pretty incredible. Good for you. Well I’ll be interested to hear what happens over the next two weeks.

CLIENT: Okay. Thank you.

THERAPIST: All right. So I will see you. Hopefully in March the Spring will come and stay with us consistently.

CLIENT: It’ll only be a couple of wow. In March it’ll be almost Spring by then.

THERAPIST: Oh yes. Please. Bring it on.

CLIENT: Tell me it’s okay to take the GRE with almost the first week of study.

THERAPIST: It is. You’ll be fine because they just need a score. They don’t need a high score; they just need a score.

CLIENT: Really because I haven’t started I’m not really freaking out about this but -

THERAPIST: No, I promise, promise, promise.

CLIENT: Okay, because I’m taking it this time.

THERAPIST: No, I promise. Just take it, yes. All right, see you later. [0:56:26]

END TRANSCRIPT