TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: So what’s happening?

CLIENT: It’s been a while, hasn’t it?

THERAPIST: It’s been a week, yes. Because I think I saw you a week from Thursday. I saw you like the sixth.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Yeah. It feels like a lot of water under the bridge.

THERAPIST: Or the thirteenth. I can’t remember.

CLIENT: I think the thirteenth.

THERAPIST: I think the thirteenth, yes.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What’s happened?

CLIENT: Well, I think the rubber hit the road.

THERAPIST: Okay. Tell me what that means.

CLIENT: Yeah. I’m trying to back up. (PAUSE) Uh...

THERAPIST: Do you want me to tell you the last thing I heard?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. So I remember that you, you know, you and your wife had a talk and you kind of told her how unhappy you were, you know, and she felt pressured, you know, when you told her about the physical intimacy missing. You know, and I remember you guys were going to go to Indiana University to see...

CLIENT: Right. [00:00:57]

THERAPIST: Okay. And I remember she chose to drive with her friend.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Okay? And I think that’s...

CLIENT: So I didn’t tell you about going to Indiana University?

THERAPIST: No. Because I don’t think you had gone yet.

CLIENT: Okay. So... Really? I thought that was the weekend before that. It doesn’t matter.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So Indiana University... My son is...

THERAPIST: Oh no. Okay. Yes. You told me that we has in a play and you felt like he was playing your life.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yes. I remember that. Yes.

CLIENT: Okay. Good. Yeah. So that Thursday... (PAUSE) I don’t know. I guess it was maybe that Sunday we went out to, we went to the show in Detroit and that’s where...

THERAPIST: That’s right.

CLIENT: ...you know, we had that discussion.

THERAPIST: At dinner. I remember that. Okay.

CLIENT: So, yeah. That Thursday, I came home and it was just like... I was kind of in this place of not really sure what to do and I was like feeling all this anger and... (PAUSE) I really tried to put myself back there and I don’t remember but it was just like, “I just want to get out of here.” [00:02:05]

So I went home and visited with my, or stayed with my brother and sister in law and, for Friday night. And then I made plans to go see my mom and dad on Saturday.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: So the brother and sister in law, I know... I’m going to be shifting around. I’ve got a pain in my hip here.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I’m trying to find a comfortable...

THERAPIST: Do you need to put your foot up?

CLIENT: Yeah. I might. We’ll see.

THERAPIST: You can move the furniture. Feel free...

CLIENT: So, at any rate, I went home to see them. (SIGH) I know that they had been doing their marriage counseling for about a year.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And so we ended up talking for a while and my brother had to work on Saturday and he was tired. So he ended up going to bed a little bit earlier. But I stayed up until like one in the morning...

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: ...talking with my sister in law. You know, and it’s like just felt like we were, we really had a story to share...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...in terms of similarities that she had put the nuclear option on the table.

THERAPIST: Okay. [00:03:09]

CLIENT: And, as it turns out, all of us, my four brothers, or my three brothers and I... There are four of us. You know, we’re all in exactly the same boat.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: We’ve all thrown the nuclear option out the table.

THERAPIST: Each of you around the same time.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Tell me about that. That’s pretty significant.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don’t know. It seems significant. I’m thinking, “Well, maybe not all that significant considering we all came from the same house.”

THERAPIST: Yeah. But that really emphasizes the house that you came from.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think so. I mean, so there’s a connection there. You know? So, at any rate, I felt like, you know, it was good to be able to feel like I was, you know, sharing that. You know, I felt like I had this significant moment of sharing with...

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:03:51]

CLIENT: I don’t know if I mentioned that I... Peterson had recommended looking at Brene Brown (ph). She does work with shame and vulnerability.

THERAPIST: Yes, yes, yes. That’s right. Because you mentioned that to me because she did a TED Talk?

CLIENT: Yes. So, at any rate, I had kind of watched that and kind of felt this place of like... I was feeling some empowerment from just kind of like finding the people that you trust to be vulnerable with and kind of leaning into that. So, you know, it felt like that was good. Let them know that, you know, kind of where I was at. It’s like, “We’re going to go see, you know, marriage counseling. But...”

THERAPIST: You are?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. This is a lot I’ve missed.

CLIENT: Oh, it’s a lot. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. Can you tell me how this came about? Yeah.

CLIENT: I’ll keep going. I’m just trying to go through it chronologically but... So... (PAUSE) Yeah. It was just in that place of like explaining where I’m at. It’s like, “Look. I’m going to go. But I know, you know, before the session’s over, they’re going to ask me the magic question.” It’s like, “How much are you willing to put into this?” [00:05:03]

It’s like... In all honesty, if I’m going to stand in my boots right now, it’s like I’ve got nothing. And that’s what I’m showing up with. You know? So I kind of did that talk with them and, you know, there were other things. I mean, my sister in law was able to kind of mirror some stuff back to me. It’s like, “Yeah. You know, we’ve kind of been noticing, you know, over the past six years, you know, things weren’t good.” You know... My nephew kind of asked her a question. So it’s like, “Do you think Seamus and Mary will stay married after the kids are gone? It seems like Mary and Ms. Curt are together all the time.”

THERAPIST: Wow. What was that like to hear?

CLIENT: I’m just like, “Wow.” So... I mean, there’s that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I went to talk to my folks to let them know that I was going to go do marriage counseling...

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:05:55]

CLIENT: ...because they’re like, you know, the ultra conservative Christians. I’m thinking, “Well, this is not going to go well.” But they turned out to be like super supportive in terms of like...

THERAPIST: Wonderful.

CLIENT: You know, it’s like, “We understand and, yeah, we kind of noticed some stuff too. But, you know, it’s not our place to say anything.”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, it’s like, okay... So I was feeling kind of encouraged by all of that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Mary left with the band and the choir for like, like Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday of this past week or... Yeah. But I got home on Saturday night.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: (SIGH) Sunday the kids, the boys were both in town. I chose to talk to the boys. You know, I felt like this is kind of, you know, a thing.

THERAPIST: Your sons?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Both of them, both the boys were home. (SIGH) And, you know, felt like I just needed to let them know that...

THERAPIST: You told them? [00:06:59]

CLIENT: I told them that we were going to go do marriage counseling.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But I’m like also kind of telling them where I’m at.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which turned out to be not such a good point of...

THERAPIST: What happened?

CLIENT: Mary found out that I had done that and it’s like, you know, “Don’t you think we should have talked about that?” You know? So it’s like, “Yeah. Point well taken.” Yeah, that probably wasn’t the best way to do that. So, at any rate...

THERAPIST: It’s almost as if though you’re tired of keeping it secret. I mean, you just can’t do it anymore.

CLIENT: Could be. Could be that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean, there’s another issue I’d kind of like to discuss too. But Sunday night, you know, we had... Everybody was out of the house, you know, another opportunity to talk and, you know, I think I was able... Again, I don’t remember the entire gist of the conversation. I think I can pull some bullet points out of that. And I think that we’re... I was able to get to, you know, and underscoring again for her... [00:08:01]

You know, after, you know, seven years of this experience, I feel like my emotional penny bank is empty. You know, the well is dry and I’m starting from a place of like negative because there’s just not a whole lot of trust left here. And, you know, that whole weekend, you know, she was like... (LAUGHTER) For seven years, my experience has been like she’s going to be gone.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know? One way or the other, there’s something always on the go or she’s with Lisa or whatever. But like she was home and it’s like, “It’s all about me,” and, “How can I help you?” and, “You know, let’s make...” You know, it’s just like... It just seemed so insincere after like so much of the opposite experience to all the sudden have like all this syrupy sweet attention is just like... [00:08:59]

THERAPIST: How did you feel about that?

CLIENT: I was furious.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I would imagine.

CLIENT: And so I was telling her that, you know, that I’m having this, where I’m at with these feelings. And she goes, “Well, I’m here to make a deposit.” And I thought that it wasn’t possible for like people’s heads to explode. But I really felt something click at that moment. And I was just like... I really shut down after that. I was so angry. I stood up and I was like... I really felt like I was going to break something.

THERAPIST: Tell me about your anger in that moment.

CLIENT: Yeah. I was just like shaking, you know, kind of like...

THERAPIST: But tell me why. I think I get it. But tell me why.

CLIENT: (SIGH) It just felt so insincere. It felt so late. It felt like this is somebody who really doesn’t understand the situation at all and this is not... This is just not fucking going to get any better.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:09:57]

CLIENT: You know, because I’m just... You know, we are so far apart for this. And it’s like I’m not hearing... She’s not hearing me. I’m not hearing her. Whatever. And it’s just like we’re miles apart on this.

THERAPIST: Like a Band-Aid over a gunshot wound.

CLIENT: That’s what it felt like to me in that moment.

THERAPIST: Sure. After it’s already started to fester.

CLIENT: Yeah. And you’ve been left there for seven years.

THERAPIST: Sure, sure.

CLIENT: So that’s my experience.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So... And she’s like, “Well, I just don’t know what you need. I just don’t know what you want.” And the best I could say was like, “I just need some space. I just need some space because all I’ve got right now is anger and rage and that’s the best that I can do. And that’s the best that I can tell you.” So she was gone for the next couples of days on this trip which was just, you know, (inaudible at 00:10:45)

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, it gave me an opportunity to just kind of chill out. And it was Spring Break and, you know... (SIGH) But when she came back on Wednesday, you know, she texted me. “So, I’m back in town. You know, do you need more space or do you need me to stay in town? Where should I, you know...” [00:11:03]

I said, “Do whatever makes you comfortable. But I just need you to know that if you’re coming out here, I’m going to be sleeping upstairs.”

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So she said, “Well, I’ll stay in town for a couple more nights.” And she did. You know, and then got home... I don’t know. (PAUSE) She called me, I think it was maybe, Saturday night. Peter was going to be home again. And, you know, she was in tears and it’s like, you know... “Can you just, can you please just stay in the room with me, you know, while Peter’s home?” I’m like, “Okay.” [00:11:53]

THERAPIST: Because why do you think?

CLIENT: Because... You know, I think I get it. I mean, it’s just like this, you know, being in this place is completely devastating. Her world view. You know? And it’s like... I don’t know. I’ve been up and down and I keep playing around with like what’s going on. (PAUSE) Let’s see. So what is today? Saturday. We went... Oh, Sunday. Sunday was my son’s senior recital down at Maroa. Okay. So, you know, I was upset of course, you know, that I had talked to a couple members of my family and the kids, you know... So she was upset about the fact that, you know... It was like, “Could you have found a better time to do this?” It’s like we’ve got this senior recital this weekend and so, you know, she was feeling hurt and betrayed that I had talked to people. I can sort of get that. [00:12:57]

But I’m like... (SIGH) Whatever. It wasn’t my intention to do that. It was just an intention to feel like I needed some support.

THERAPIST: Sure, sure.

CLIENT: So we did this recital and it all went fairly well and everybody was pretty, I think, pretty normal except that, you know, it’s like, there’s, you know, the white elephant in the room.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But whatever. And then we come back Sunday night and it was late and I just... You know, it was like, “I’m not going to make a deal out of this right now.” So I went into our bedroom. But last night it was like I had made the decision that I was, you know, I was going to be in that place of “I don’t feel comfortable doing this anymore.” You know, it’s like...

THERAPIST: Doing what anymore?

CLIENT: Sleeping in this bed. It just feels like, you know, I’ve been doing this for so many years. And it’s like now that I’m in this place of feeling, all I feel is tension and I’m not sleeping well at night anymore. [00:14:01]

And I’m like... So, as it turns out, I didn’t sleep well last night anyway. I went up to bed and...

THERAPIST: So did you move upstairs then?

CLIENT: I just... Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I just went... I didn’t move everything upstairs. I just went to... We’ve got extra beds upstairs. But, you know... I don’t know. She got home. I don’t know where she was at. I don’t know. What was last night? Oh. I got home from class and she got home probably around a quarter to nine, texted me from downstairs and said, you know, “I’m home. Going to bed. Too sad to talk.” And I just texted back, “Okay.” I don’t know what time it was. I had actually gone to bed. So I don’t know. It could have been fifteen minutes. It could have been an hour. I don’t know what time it was actually. But she just came up and turned on the light and just like, you know, unleashed.

THERAPIST: Okay. Tell me about what happened. [00:14:57]

CLIENT: “Why are you doing this to me? Why are you being so cruel?” (SIGH) I’m like... She’s always been somebody who can like... The internal thinker. When it’s on her mind, she can just say it.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And she can dump it out there. And for me, you know, especially when I get hit with a barrage of feelings like that, then it’s like, “I don’t know.” You know? Then it takes me a long time to put it all together, you know, as an external thinker to get it out there and all that stuff. So I don’t know. We were up until three-ish.

THERAPIST: How did you respond to sort of her emotional barrage?

CLIENT: I was really pretty amazing because I had spent some time over the last, whatever, week and a half just kind of thinking about all of that and thinking about, you know, how I believe, you know, that I have been, you know, for fifty years out of my life. [00:16:01]

It’s just that sense of like I gather my self-worth based upon whether or not people like me. It’s all external stuff. You know? So the worst thing in the world is for somebody to be angry at me.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, because you could snuff me out of existence by being angry at me. So I had really spent some time thinking about that, journaling about that, talking to some other people about that. You know, and getting a sense, you know, “This is how I’ve operated all my life.” Combine that with, you know, my shame issues and combine that with a really bad skill set for communicating, you know... And it’s like, “Well, here it is. It’s all come home to roost. This is the sum total and accumulation of like all of your really bad communication skills. So here you go.” (LAUGHTER) [00:17:03]

THERAPIST: So what happened?

CLIENT: What happened?

THERAPIST: Yes. How did you respond?

CLIENT: You know, I just kind of sat there with it.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know, and I just kind of sat there and it’s like, “You know what? I’m just going to let her get this out.” And what was really amazing, you know, is that I’m not in this place of overwhelming fear. I’m not in this place of like “I’m going to have to cave into everything that’s being said here.” It’s like, “You know what? She’s got a right to be really, really angry and pissed off and all of this kind of stuff because, yeah, it’s her stuff. And I’m good with that.” You know? (SIGH) But, you know... (PAUSE) Yeah. You know, so it was helpful, you know, to a certain degree to kind of get like, you know, to be able to get it from her. It’s like, “You’re recognized.” These are conversations, these are talks that should have happened twenty years ago. [00:18:05]

THERAPIST: Sure. But she’s emotionally responding to you.

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And that’s not... You guys have been emotionally not responding to one another and now you are. You know, something that you said. You know all of your bad communications skills. You know, I don’t think you’re a bad communicator. I think it hasn’t been safe to communicate what you’ve needed to communicate.

CLIENT: Okay. Well, whatever. I get that. I think that I get that. Enough other people have affirmed to me in being a fairly easy communicator.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: When it comes to this relationship...

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: ...it really, really sucks in a big way. And I get that. You know? And I get that, you know, there’s a lot of issues going on. So as we were talking and as we were trying to like get things out, it’s like, you know, I get the fact that, you know, she believes that in her mind that, you know, she was, she’s giving me my space. You know, that it’s like, “Well, I couldn’t get you to communicate so I decided that I just needed to move on and move on with my life and just wait for you to decide to communicate or decide to start feeling again.” [00:19:15]

So, you know, I get that we’re doing to best that we can with the skills that we had. It just didn’t work out real well. You know? You know, so a lot of old past hurts came bubbling up and, you know, thrown around and things like that. So... (PAUSE) Yeah. You know...

THERAPIST: How did you guys get to the point where you decided to go for couple’s counseling?

CLIENT: Oh, we had made that decision earlier in the week. You know, it was kind of a thing that I put it out there and said that I’d get some recommendations, you know, to, for couple’s counseling.

THERAPIST: Great. Who are you going to see? [00:20:01]

CLIENT: William Bernard.

THERAPIST: No, I don’t know him.

CLIENT: A recommendation from (inaudible at 00:20:09)

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So anyway...

THERAPIST: Can I check in with you and find out how you’re doing? This is so much.

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s a lot. And I think that, you know... And she’s... You know, she was angry about... You know, I feel like it is a lot. You know, and it’s like, “Well? You know what? It was unintentional.” This is just the way it’s happening. You know? And she’s like... She’s angry at the whole counseling thing because it’s like...

THERAPIST: This and the counseling program or just you being here?

CLIENT: Well, maybe this because it’s like, you know, “I hope that you learn from this experience that you shouldn’t do this to anybody. You shouldn’t... You know, you shouldn’t destroy peoples’ worlds like this.” [00:20:53]

THERAPIST: How do you feel about what she said?

CLIENT: Well, there’s truth to it. But I also feel like... I mean, deep down underneath all of this, it’s like, “Yeah. You know what? There’s a world here that needs to be destroyed.” In my opinion.

THERAPIST: Do you think... Well, do you feel that way, that kind of counseling or coming to counseling here has destroyed this?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: No. It was destroyed long before I came here. You know, this is just fixing me to allow me to be able to communicate and to feel. The fact of the matter is I don’t have a whole lot of skill set for that so maybe I didn’t do this gracefully. Maybe I didn’t do this as well as it needed to be done. But, you know what? It’s out there now. You know, so it’s like, “Okay. I’ve got to deal with that.” [00:22:03]

THERAPIST: Well, you know... I can see her perspective where before coming to counseling you were... You guys had this status quo pattern. Now all of this was bubbling up underneath it and it sounds like she had some denial around what was happening around the relationship. But it worked. Right?

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: And then it didn’t.

CLIENT: Because a lot of people... You know, what we had was really wonderful and a lot of people would really, you know, give a lot to have what we had. And I’m like, “Yeah. We had some good stuff here. But, you know...” (PAUSE) From my chair...

THERAPIST: But it wasn’t good for you. No.

CLIENT: From my chair, this was a lot of years of really sucking a lot.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know? And not being able to really own that or feel that.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know? So...

THERAPIST: You know, I fluctuate from being deeply sad for the situation you’re in because it’s such a painful thing to deal with and amazingly proud of you because, in such a short amount of time, you went from being paralyzed, you know, fearful about saying what’s real for you and not wanting to experience your anger to putting it out there in a way that... You know, it’s almost like you just couldn’t take it anymore. You just couldn’t take the denial anymore... [00:23:11]

And so, in some ways... So, for her, I see she sees her world as destroyed. But the world was based on water because of all these things underneath it you’re the one who was being... It worked for her. It never really worked for you, not for at least seven years.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I think that we got... (SIGH) We got to this place of like, you know... I felt like we kind of circled around to another place that was really familiar to me in my past relationship which was...

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: ...you know, that when we would occasionally have these moments where we would have these disagreements or arguments or even... But, you know, these moments of conflict, it was always feeling like the situation got manipulated around so that it became all my deal. It was all my work that needed to be fixed. [00:24:03]

You know? And if you could just figure out how to line up your world...

THERAPIST: And fix you.

CLIENT: ...the way that I want it to be...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...then everything’s going to be great. You know, and I feel like the piece that’s missing in that formula now is that I’m less inclined to believe that.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I’m less inclined to believe that I need to gain my self-worth from jumping through that hoop. So I was able to like, “Yeah, you know what? Something doesn’t feel right here to me.” And I was able to say to her sort of, “Yeah. But you know what... I’ll take 50% of this but this is not... I mean, we’re still not dealing with the 800 pound gorilla.”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, which is the sexual abuse issues.

THERAPIST: Right. And you said this?

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: And how was that received?

CLIENT: It was like, “Oh, I intend to, you know, that we needed to talk about that too.” It’s like... I was able to throw some stuff out there. It’s like, “You know, this shit really hurts. I’m carrying around some really old hurts.” [00:25:05]

THERAPIST: Sure, sure.

CLIENT: You know? And I was able to like... I get it because it’s just like it just won’t go away. You know? The whole relationship she had with the priest that married us that I didn’t know about.

THERAPIST: This is the priest that sexually abused her.

CLIENT: She doesn’t call it abuse.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It was a relationship.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Because she was eighteen.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And he was 54 and 55.

THERAPIST: So they had a sexual relationship.

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But I’m thinking, ‘Yeah, what would you say about your eighteen year old daughter having a relationship with a 55 year old priest?”

THERAPIST: Sure. Yeah.

CLIENT: Would that be abuse or would that be a relationship?

THERAPIST: Yeah. It was abuse and abusive. We wouldn’t define it was childhood sexual abuse. But what difference does it makes? It was abusive.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, what I think she points to is being her sexual abuse episode was her brother. And I don’t remember exactly what age she was. But it’s like, you know, she recognizes... You know, I feel that, you know, that kind of the loss of innocence and, you know... [00:26:15]

So sex has been a bad thing for her...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...ever since then. So, you know, it’s... As we’re speaking this stuff last night, it’s like talking about the 800 pound elephant. You know, and she can only grab onto the sexual component.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And it’s like, “You’re asking me to go someplace that I can’t go.” You know, it’s like... And I’m like, “What I’m talking about here is I’m talking about intimacy. I’m talking about the fact that we don’t have intimacy physical or emotional...”

THERAPIST: Right. [00:26:55]

CLIENT: “...and it’s all related to this issue. We need to deal with this issue because none of this is going to happen until we do.” And it took like two or three times and I’m still not sure if she...

THERAPIST: Because she’s terrified.

CLIENT: Oh, she’s terrified. And then, you know, she’s... Whenever the really intense anger comes up, it’s all around that sexual abuse issue. She is so resistant to this.

THERAPIST: Sure. But, you know, I guess, you know, in hearing your response and hers, I guess, you know, if I could provide you with some protective mechanisms, and I don’t know if I can, this is not about her or you. It’s about the both of you.

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: So, you know, when this sexual abuse issue comes up and comes out more and more, you know, it’s tempting to say, “Well...” It’s tempting in some ways to deny your own needs, I think and to focus on the sexual abuse because, you know, “How could you possibly want these things from me? Look. I’ve been sexually abused. I can’t do it.” And you’re not talking about that. And, in some ways, you have really denied your own needs for a really long time. [00:28:07]

CLIENT: For a long damn time.

THERAPIST: Yes. And if it was... It’s not about the sexual abuse issue. That’s one important factor. But it’s about not having the emotional intimacy. So...

CLIENT: “You were never able to go there. I was always trying to give you that emotional intimacy. But you would never accept it.” That was her response.

THERAPIST: Sure. And what did you feel about what she said?

CLIENT: I get that that’s what she believes. I get that that’s her point of view. But it’s like, “You know what? From my place...”

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: “...with my issues...”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: “...it’s like you shut off the physical intimacy which told me, it confirmed my worst fears.”

THERAPIST: Sure. And does she, is she aware of that?

CLIENT: Oh yeah. You know, but since that wasn’t her intention, that doesn’t exist.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:29:05]

CLIENT: That, you know...

THERAPIST: So in some ways you’re both right from your individual points of view.

CLIENT: Of course.

THERAPIST: Of course. Yeah. Which makes it all the more painful because she’s not able to hear you and you may have a reduced ability to hear her.

CLIENT: I certainly get all that.

THERAPIST: Sure, sure.

CLIENT: Because I feel like... And one of the other things I’m just grappling with today. It’s like... You know, I don’t feel like I’m this vengeful, angry, hateful person to anybody else on the planet except her.

THERAPIST: Well, are you... Well, let’s go back and look at your words. Are you vengeful and hateful towards her?

CLIENT: Well, it sounded like I was last night.

THERAPIST: No. Is that a truth? Are you vengeful and hateful towards your wife?

CLIENT: No. But I will, you know, I will loudly admit it. As much as I wouldn’t early on, it’s like I don’t like her anymore. [00:30:03]

THERAPIST: What’s it like to say that?

CLIENT: (SIGH) You know, it’s just truth at this point. You know? It’s like, “Great.”

THERAPIST: And what does that mean for you to not like her?

CLIENT: I don’t know how we fix anything because I’m like... I’m starting out in such a low position in terms of intimacy, having anything to bring to this.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And I’m not even bringing like with me to the table.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And now I’m supposed to build a lifelong relationship for whatever is left of it? And you want me to give you an answer right now tonight? Do you want this to work out? And I’m like, “I’m telling you what I got. And what I got is nothing.” So it makes me feel like, you know, I get to be that guy then. I get to confirm all of her worst fears and I get to... [00:30:59]

THERAPIST: Okay. That’s right. So let’s stop for a second. You know, that’s my fear for you that you inherit that and that’s not true. That’s just not true. It’s never ever that simple. Right? You are not that guy. Right? That guy would’ve had multiple affairs, left, done many things... You’re not that guy. You’re not happy and you’re no longer willing to put up with a relationship, a marriage with getting any of your needs met in intimacy. But that doesn’t make you that guy. And so, you know, as you have worked incredibly hard to find your truth and you have found it, as painful as it is, in your counseling with her, in your discussions with her, you have to stand in your own truth. Right? You know, I think I told you when I was thirteen, my parents separated, right? And I was old enough to kind of understand some of it but not all of it because as a kid I’m watching these things unfold. And I saw how very painful it was for them both. Right? [00:32:03]

I probably as a kid took my dad’s side. I was kind of a Daddy’s girl.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: I was pissed at my mom for years. But... And as a grown up, I began to see things differently that these were two really good people. They loved each other. I don’t think they liked each other much anymore although, you know, they managed to figure their shit out later after their parents started dying off, after they were separated. They were always separated. They strangely became good friends. Right? But I began to realize that, you know, they were both correct from their point of view. And something wasn’t working for them anymore. Right? And there were times I think when my mom really wanted it to work and there were times I think when my dad really wanted it to work not really at the same time. Right? And I remember it being a painful experience and both of them talking about it being a painful experience. But, you know... And she was really angry at him. But he was not that guy. He really wasn’t. He could act like an asshole or she could act like an asshole. But they weren’t assholes. It just didn’t work anymore for them. [00:33:07]

You know? And this is not working for you. This hasn’t worked for you in a really long time and it hasn’t worked for you in some extremely damaging and painful ways. That doesn’t make you that guy. It just makes the truth that it’s not working for you. That’s the truth, no more, no less.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you have a diminished ability after sort of like swallowing shit for years and years and going, “I’m not doing this anymore. I can’t do it.” Right? But that doesn’t make you that guy. No matter how positioned into that role you will be pressured to feel, that doesn’t make you that guy. It doesn’t. It doesn’t make you perfect. It doesn’t make her perfect. But you are not that guy.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think that... You know, I think the other thing that I’m, you know, feeling, you know, is that, you know, she knows how to throw, you know, she knows how to throw the old stuff back out there.

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:34:09]

CLIENT: You know, it’s like... (PAUSE) You know, reminding me that, you know...

THERAPIST: That what?

CLIENT: That the business, the business is, you know, kind of failed or it didn’t turn out the way I wanted it to or it’s like, you know, that I was kind of floundering and struggling and not sure what to do. She’s like, “You know, I kept encouraging you to go get a job. You just wouldn’t go do that. You ended up going to this, you know, this counseling thing.” And it’s just like all of these things that from her vantage point, the way that she’s seeing it and the way she’s throwing it out at me, is that, you know, I’ve just been this narcissistic character that has just pursued whatever the hell it is that he wants to do. And, “I’ll just sit here and go to work and fund all of your narcissistic adventures.” [00:35:01]

And I’m like, “Wow. That really hurts.” You know, I get how you might see that or something from your point of view and it’s like... It’s difficult to look at the track record and not say, “Yeah. I guess I do change up my career, you know, quite a bit.”

THERAPIST: But let’s hold on for a second. I think that’s one way of looking at it. However, when you decided to stop teaching and open up your own business, was there a discussion about it?

CLIENT: (SIGH) Yeah, I think so.

THERAPIST: Okay. And were there any sort of say, “No, hold on. I don’t think you should do this,” or, “Let’s not do this.”

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Permanently?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Like... Right. In the beginning.

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s like... You know, it was a scary adventure and it’s like, “Do you really want to do this,” and, “This is really taking a step out and away from security and...” [00:35:59]

THERAPIST: But was that message consistent? “I really don’t want you to do this.” Or did it change?

CLIENT: I think that she eventually just kind of gave in on the idea.

THERAPIST: Okay. So, in some ways, if that is her perception... Right? So this is a communication both of you have where you may subtly state or state once or twice what you think or feel in disagreement with the other person and then let it go.

CLIENT: Probably once.

THERAPIST: Okay. But then are these... What happens is there are these fundamental... In some ways, she bears a responsibility for saying, “I’m not comfortable with this. I don’t like this. I don’t want to do this.” But that’s not the message that you heard consistently. And the same thing for you. If something was happening... I mean, it didn’t have to be a seven year...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So this is the... And this is not pointing the finger. But what I’m trying to point out here is this is the agreed upon couple contract that you guys signed together about how we do things in this house with one another. Right?

CLIENT: Right. [00:36:57]

THERAPIST: And how we do things in this house up to this point has been we don’t really talk about the things that hurt us, that bother us. We just kind of go into separate corners.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And then you changed contract.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right? Because you couldn’t stand the contract the way it was. But both of you, right, both of you absolutely agreed upon that contract.

CLIENT: And I think I was able to say that...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...in so many words last night. It’s like, “You know, we have really, really poor communication skills. You know? And the reason we’re here right now tonight is because we have 27 years of really bad communication skills.” And it’s like, “I can’t go there anymore.” It’s like whatever that was, whatever that was, that’s over now because I’m changed.

THERAPIST: How are you doing with all of the feelings this brings? [00:37:55]

CLIENT: (SIGH) (PAUSE) You know, I... You know, it’s difficult to manage, you know, because it’s omnipresent and difficult to like focus. You know, it took me like two hours to get stupid little reflection question done that I had to submit online today. A smarter man would have figured out a different plan for doing this. You know?

THERAPIST: I don’t think it has anything to do with intelligence. This is a very painful alive fully present ball of stuff.

CLIENT: Oh this is all in.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It is.

CLIENT: I mean, this is all in.

THERAPIST: It is. I mean, you completely changed the dynamic. Like since you guys had been following all the rules and now there are now rules. All the rules that you had are gone.

CLIENT: And I get it. You know? She told me that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? “You have all the cards now.” (PAUSE) And that’s an uncomfortable place for her because she likes having all the cards. [00:38:59]

THERAPIST: Do you feel you have all the cards?

CLIENT: (SIGH) The way that she continues to operate in this.... It’s like, “I’m just going to stand back here and you...” You know, the image I have is from a long damn time ago in our relationship. It’s like there are these walls built up. And it’s like, “I’m talking to you over this wall. Do you feel intimately close now?” That’s the kind of intimacy that we’ve had in this relationship.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And it’s like, “I’ll stick my head out to see if it’s safe for me to, you know, tell you how I’m feeling.”

THERAPIST: The first couple of sessions you described it as the force field.

CLIENT: Same thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I get that, you know, I did the same damn thing. And which came first? I don’t know. It doesn’t matter.

THERAPIST: Well, it came together. That’s the agreed upon contract.

CLIENT: Right. I mean, yeah, we entered the relationship like that and we came with our own brokenness. So this is how we do this. [00:40:05]

THERAPIST: But that doesn’t make you a bad guy.

CLIENT: Oh boy.

THERAPIST: That just makes you a guy that can’t deal with this current situation the way it is anymore. Right? And I’m going to say this again because in the moments where you feel guilt or shame or whatever, I would like you to remember that it doesn’t make you a bad guy. And if you really focus within, in your truth, you know that this doesn’t make you a bad guy. So whether this marriage continues or not or what happens next doesn’t mean you’re the one at fault or I don’t think there’s a fault. I just think that it, you know, things are not working and you’re not willing to put up with it anymore. You know? And if you look to, you know, it is kind of remarkable that your brothers are at a similar place and maybe if you think existentially some of it is getting to a point in your life, you know, the kids are out of the house and you’re reclaiming parts of your life for yourself. [00:41:09]

And you look back and you go, “But I don’t want, you know, the next forty years to look like this. I don’t want that.”

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And that’s...

CLIENT: And she does.

THERAPIST: Well, sure because it works for her. She gets the social acceptable desirable position of being married, kids are out of the house, that’s respectable. It’s very Christian. Right? And yet her emotional intimacy needs get to be met and yours don’t. Right? And, in some ways, I can understand her perspective. You’ve destroyed this very nice little life that we’ve had. But it’s hell for you. It’s been hell for you.

CLIENT: And it has been because I get that. And it’s like, “Well, has it really been hell?” Well, why don’t we look at the facts, pal. You know? I mean, not that I... I’m just saying this... I shouldn’t say this knowing my position as a counselor in training...

THERAPIST: You say whatever you want. [00:42:05]

CLIENT: Well, I don’t need you pressing any panic buttons. But it’s like the thought of going back and trying to maintain that relationship, I might as well just swallow a gun.

THERAPIST: Sure, sure, sure.

CLIENT: You know, I...

THERAPIST: Right. Which is a pretty powerful analogy. Like, you know, I just think you decided, “There’s no fucking way I can do this anymore. Like I can’t do it.” And there’s...

CLIENT: It’s like I don’t care whose fault it is.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, I’m just listening to some old music. I realized that I haven’t plugged in music... Was it you that reminded me of this?

THERAPIST: Yeah. We talked about it.

CLIENT: It’s like... I started listening to some old music. I found some Johnny Cash.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that’s right. We talked about Johnny Cash.

CLIENT: You know? And it’s like he did a cover of Nine Inch Nails, Hurt. And there’s a really raw moment in there where he’s like, “You can have it all, my empire of dirt.” You know, it’s just like... I don’t... (SIGH)

THERAPIST: And that brought up what for you? [00:43:01]

CLIENT: You know, it’s like... (PAUSE) I just want... I don’t want any part of this.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: So what’s it going to be like to go to counseling? When is it? Tomorrow?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I don’t know. I don’t know. It’s just like all I can be and all I can bring is what I am.

THERAPIST: Sure. Have you ever been to couples’ counseling before?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Okay. It’s emotionally intense. I hope that you have a good counselor and I think your honesty with where you are is probably one of the most important things. If you... You know, it’s almost always the case that people are differentially motivated. But you continue to be honest. Right? You be honest with where you are. Where you are may change...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...depending on how things go. But I don’t think you have to have expectations. I just think that you have to try to be open to the process, not even expect what it will bring or fix or heal or whatever. But just kind of... You know, you have so much more information now from your wife than you’ve had in years about her emotional responses to things, some of which hurt you, some of which pissed you off. [00:44:11]

But you have emotional data. Right? And so counseling will bring more emotional data and then you will continue to kind of look at it and decide what you want to do with the rest of your life.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And that’s the expectation to have, that you’re going to learn more and that information will be useful to you for decisions that you have to make. And I think that’s all you really have to bring to the process. Show up, listen, state your truth...

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: It looks like it’s really wearing on you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. It is. You know, and I get that. And it’s... (PAUSE) Yeah. [00:45:01]

You know, and really, you know, there’s a huge... It’s who I am. You know? And it hurts inside to see her hurting. You know, and it’s like I don’t want to do that to anybody. You know? (PAUSE) There’s also a part of me that’s like... Whatever. You know? I can’t take 100% responsibility...

THERAPIST: Absolutely not.

CLIENT: ...for this. You know?

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s a sad situation and... Yeah. Everybody’s going to be feeling what they’re going to be feeling about this. But I can only accept whatever I feel I’m responsible for.

THERAPIST: Sure. And recognize that, you know, if you have... I don’t know. Let’s say you have 40% responsibility and she has 40% responsibility, there’s 20% variability there still floating around, you know, of just factors. Right? [00:46:01]

I think it is pretty incredible that you reached out to your family for support. Well, I need to hear that because it feels like, you know, I’m being some kind of a sneaky bastard who’s trying to, you know, set up conditions for blood money.

THERAPIST: Not really. You know, in terms of talking to your sons, that might have been a decision the two of you made together but your family, your siblings, your brothers. Right? You are allowed to have relationships with your family members and to reach out to them. You really are. You really don’t have to ask anybody’s permission to do that. And what you got back from your parents and from your brother and your sister in law was surprising probably for you because you had, in some ways, you know, everybody’s kind of cut off from one another. But you needed that. You had gotten into a habit of not reaching out and when you did, you got a lot of rewards.

CLIENT: I really did and I found it not just those family members...

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:47:01]

CLIENT: ...but there’s a half a dozen other friends...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...that I’ve had since a long time friends and it’s like.... I had this small little, you know, group of support system.

THERAPIST: Yeah. But you didn’t feel that way a couple months ago. We...

CLIENT: Probably not.

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: And, you know, a couple of months ago it’s like I couldn’t tell you what I was feeling.

THERAPIST: No. But you didn’t feel like you had much support and you changed it by talking about what you’re going through. Right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You’re changing these huge patterns... Maybe it’s hard to see because you’re in the middle of it and it’s really painful. But you sort of had a lifetime of one pattern. You’ve completely changed it in a couple of months. Right?

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, as much as I didn’t want to be Wile E. Coyote hitting the plunger on the dynamite, that’s pretty much what I did.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Yeah. I pretty much just fucking blew it all up. [00:47:55]

THERAPIST: But you blew up the pattern.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You didn’t blow up the marriage. Okay? You blew up the pattern that wasn’t working.

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: Alright? Again, I don’t want self-blame to creep in here but what it does is it really clouds understanding what’s really happening. If you are just guilt ridden and shame ridden, you don’t really, you’re not really in a place then to really look at what’s happening. Right? So I’m imagining things as you go forward. I’m imagining this is a pretty awful place to be. But it was a worse place to be where you were before and you won’t stay here.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think that’s what I’ve got to remember.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: It’s like I have no idea... You know, a buddy of mine who’s... I call him my redneck alter ego.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: If you can imagine everything that I’m... Do 180.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I mean, he puts away a twelve pack a night.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: He’s just one of those guys. But, you know, like he’s a truth teller.

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:49:03]

CLIENT: You know... And he won’t candy coat it for you.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: He’s like, “Seamus, you’ve been coming over to my house for ten years telling me this shit. You finally grew a pair.” (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) What was it like to hear that?

CLIENT: You know, it’s like whatever. You know, it’s probably what I needed to hear in the moment. You know, it’s like... You know, he went through an awful nasty divorce...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Really nasty. So he’s coming from a different, from a completely different perspective.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: He’s like, “You need to go home right now and start figuring out your finances. What the hell are you going to do?” You know, it’s like, “Oh shit.” I haven’t even thought about the reality of what all this means.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I’m so airy fairy worried about my existential whatever that it’s like, “Well, what’s this really look like?”

THERAPIST: Well, you’re not there yet.

CLIENT: I’m in a... I’m in a financially vulnerable place.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So I’m like... So that puts me in a... That almost puts me in a position of like, “Shit.” [00:50:07]

THERAPIST: You know, the finances, as scary as it is, will work out and you’re not there yet.

CLIENT: I know, I know, I know. And I don’t even... You know, it’s like... (SIGH) Part of me feels like I ought to be trying to bring something to the table.

THERAPIST: You are. You’re bringing you and your truth.

CLIENT: Alright.

THERAPIST: And I’m not saying, “Don’t think about finances and that stuff,” because if your thoughts direct you that way, that’s more data. I mean, that says you’re planning for a different future than you thought you were. You know? But you don’t know yet. You don’t know where this thing is going to go. You just know that you can’t stand it anymore the way that it has been. And you’re changing the pattern means you’re not stuck anymore. You’re reaching out to people who can understand what you’re going through which means you’re building a support system. You’re finding you’re not the only person going through this and you just refuse to stay stuck in that hell hole anymore. [00:51:03]

CLIENT: No. I... If I haven’t said that clearly enough, it’s like I’m... Even in the midst of all that last night, I didn’t go back downstairs. I rolled over and went back to sleep.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Good for you.

CLIENT: You know, it’s like I can’t do it.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I can’t do that.

THERAPIST: It’s not okay anymore.

CLIENT: It’s like I guess I’m just going to wear whatever it is I have to wear right now. I feel like the only way out of this particular situation is through it. I have been dancing around it for so long...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...that it’s not working.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Or I’ve ignored it or denied it or whatever those feelings are. It’s like...

THERAPIST: You know, I bet whatever, where ever this path takes you, whatever relationships you make with people regardless, whether they’re romantic or not or whatever... I bet you never do that again.

CLIENT: Oh I never do that again. [00:52:01]

THERAPIST: I bet you never keep your silence again. I bet you never do that again.

CLIENT: It’s really pretty amazing in, you know, the last two weeks. I’ve said things to people I’ve never ever said before in my life.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yes.

CLIENT: And it’s like I don’t feel bad about it.

THERAPIST: Doesn’t it feel empowering?

CLIENT: It feels... Yeah.

THERAPIST: That’s great.

CLIENT: I can’t do that with her.

THERAPIST: Well, but you have been.

CLIENT: To a certain degree. Yeah. I guess you’re right.

THERAPIST: Okay. But you have been.

CLIENT: I guess I have been.

THERAPIST: You said to a certain degree. Oh please. We went from not at all to having conversations where you kind of stand your ground and state the truth. And you’re still able to hear what she’s saying whether you like it or not.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I guess you’re right. I’m speaking my truth. It’s just that the truth is not what she wants to hear and it’s not pretty and bubbly.

THERAPIST: Yes. And she’s speaking truth back to you that you don’t always want to hear either. I mean, that’s always the way that it is. But you’re not changing the truth.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, so, now, again, so when I say, you know, my goodness, you’ve broken this pattern, you’ve broken the shit out of the pattern.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:53:09]

THERAPIST: Like, you know, it’s like a glass plate that you just cracked the hell out of.

CLIENT: It’s not going back together again.

THERAPIST: No. And you know what? Good. Because...

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: I sort of liken it to having acid on your insides the other way where you’re just slowly destroying yourself from the inside. Say again?

CLIENT: That’s what I did.

THERAPIST: That’s what... Yeah. That’s what I think of it as not being able to say how you feel and how you think and how you’re dying inside.

CLIENT: Swallowing all that poison for years. You know, it’s like, you know... I think the one thing that was really difficult for me and I did call my daughter. It’s like... She wasn’t home so I called her and talked to her over the phone. She’s the only one that really expresses any kind of emotion out of all the people that I talk to.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:54:03]

CLIENT: I get it. You know, it’s like...

THERAPIST: What happened there?

CLIENT: She was, she was sad...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...about that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then she called me another time. I think she and my wife had a discussion and she said, “It just feels like you’re not going to try to put it back together Dad.” You know? And so I get, you know, that I’m changing up, I’m rockin everybody’s world.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And that one’s probably the hardest and it’s just like, you know... I don’t care who else is crying but my little princess cries and then it’s like, “Oh shit.”

THERAPIST: Yeah. But you know...

CLIENT: But, you know, Mary is like, “How can you... How can you...” Whatever she said, the word. I don’t know. “...break the hearts of our children,” and all that kind of thing. And I’m just feeling like continuing this crap and giving them that for how many more years, you know, it’s like... [00:55:05]

THERAPIST: But see even that is a very emotional blackmail.

CLIENT: Manipulative.

THERAPIST: “Break the hearts of our children.” Well, your children are grown and it doesn’t mean they’re immune to this.” Okay? But it means you will have conversations with your grown children and you will say what’s true for you and you will acknowledge how difficult it is for the family. But are you breaking the hearts of your children? You know, I don’t...

CLIENT: Here’s another thing. It’s like, “Okay.” I get that what she’s saying.

THERAPIST: Sure, sure. It’s definitely sad and they will have a reaction to that. But that’s really... That’s a finger point. “You’re breaking the hearts of our children.”

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: You know... And it’s like, “Well, I don’t know about that.” Like, I mean, I certainly don’t speak for every child of divorce or separation but, you know, I had a really good relationship with both of my parents. And there were a rocky few years. I was a lot younger than your children. I mean, my brother was probably college age, at the time, my older brother. [00:56:05]

But, you know, my relationship with my parents stood the test of time individually because I had good individual relationships with them. And it was a very difficult thing for our family go through to watch your parents separate or split up. But my... Each of them attended to the relationship with each of us and there were three of us, each of them did. And I think that even though it’s a painful time, you know, remember that you are a good dad and you are their dad and you are going to have conversations with them about it.

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s just, you know...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s throwing around that kind of, that emotional stuff.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: And you know what? You are trying. You wouldn’t agree to go to counseling if you weren’t trying. So when you say, “It feels like you’re not going to put it back together,” that you don’t know. But you know you’re trying and trying today looks different than it would yesterday, looks different than it would tomorrow. Trying today may look like you only have negative two. Maybe tomorrow it’s 10%. We don’t know. [00:57:07]

You don’t know. It’s okay not to know. How are you doing right now as we kind of end things for today?

CLIENT: Yeah, I know, I know, I know. Yeah. You know, it’s just sitting in the suck.

THERAPIST: It is.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: There’s a lot of suck.

CLIENT: Yep. There is.

THERAPIST: But you are extraordinarily brave to do it.

CLIENT: Well, that’s what some others have said and I’m like... I need to hang onto that because... I mean, there’s kind of like this dualistic list.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, it’s like the things that I feel like I’ve come to know about myself and the things that, you know, got thrown at me last night. You know, it’s like...

THERAPIST: Well, that’s her perspective.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:57:55]

THERAPIST: And she’s entitled to it. Right? But that’s one perspective.

CLIENT: Yeah. And these are perspectives too and it’s like neither of them are really ultimately real. You know, it’s like...

THERAPIST: Well or they’re a shared reality or, you know... If you, you know, if you feel like it or if something happens in couples’ counseling and you want to check up with me, please do. Send me an e-mail and tell me to call you. I’ll call you as soon as I can call you. You know? You know, all you have to do is be, show up and be there5.

CLIENT: Yeah. And that’s what I’m going to do and... Yeah. And thanks. It’s...

THERAPIST: For? (LAUGHTER) I don’t know. For?

CLIENT: For everything.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: No, I mean, really, I do believe that on the back side of this it’s... It all looks better somehow. But...

THERAPIST: I think so.

CLIENT: Right now, it’s just...

THERAPIST: But it takes a while. You know, I have a really good friend of mine. He’s a psychologist and he... He’s in his early fifties and he and his wife have been together for 25, 26 years and they just went through a painful divorce and for some similar reasons that, you know, she... They weren’t able to connect, emotional intimacy. This is not a unique experience to you. It is your experience. But it’s a painful experience. You know? But you’re doing it.

CLIENT: Yep. I’m doing it.

THERAPIST: And that takes a strength because in some ways Seamus it would have been so much easier for you just to stay in the same pattern.

CLIENT: And I’m surrounded by people that are doing that.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: I’m surrounded by people that are doing that. My wife’s, you know, all of the friends.

THERAPIST: Yes. But that’s not okay with you anymore.

CLIENT: They’re doing that. I’m like... I have to live on the island of misfit toys. Right?

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) So I will see you next week.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Okay. Let me know how things go.

CLIENT: I am sorry. I appreciate the time.

THERAPIST: No. Problem at all. Take care Seamus. See you next week.

END TRANSCRIPT