TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Well, to use the right metaphor...

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: ...you know, I’m still in the ring.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know, the fight is internal. You know the fight is internal about like staying with the truth. You know?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So I feel like the weekend was, you know... I was up against the ropes.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But I’m... I think I’m still in the... I may be in the corner right now but at least I’m still in the ring. So...

THERAPIST: It sounds like it’s been a pretty tough weekend.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I can tell by your face.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I’m operating on like two nights of almost no sleep. So...

THERAPIST: Yeah. What’s happening for you at night?

CLIENT: (SIGH) You know, it’s just like I’ve been really tuned into by body and like the body is just like screaming at me.

THERAPIST: What’s it saying to you? [00:00:59]

CLIENT: Well, it was interesting. I’ll back up just a little bit.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: A friend (PAUSE) was talking about some gestalt stuff. And I’ve been resistant to that kind of stuff. That whole notion of talking to the empty chair just drive me crazy.

THERAPIST: I’m surprised.

CLIENT: And I’m like why would I be so resistant to something like that?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So... Like, I don’t know. For whatever reason, like Sunday morning, I was just like (PAUSE) just sitting there and I started.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know, and it was almost barely audible.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s like, okay. It’s not like thinking about talking to the empty chair. I have to talk to the empty chair.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And it’s like the more I did it, the louder my voice got.

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

CLIENT: And I just started saying stuff.

THERAPIST: What did you say?

CLIENT: You know, like I was just directing it all at Mary and just trying, trying not to edit, just trying to get it all out. You know? [00:02:03]

And I’m thinking, “Okay. Maybe this is what I need. This is what I need to do in order to get rid of this knotted up feeling in my stomach.”

THERAPIST: What kinds of things did you say to the chair?

CLIENT: You know, I think, you know, anger feelings, hurt feelings, you know, how could you have done this to me kind of feelings. You know? And ultimately, you know, saying those really hard words of, “You know, there’s just not any love there anymore and I just want out.”

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: You know... And that’s just like, just really difficult.

THERAPIST: Gut wrenching.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So it’s like, “Okay.” I’m thinking, “Hey, you know, maybe this is good. You know how to get this stuff out.” The experience that I had of doing that it just like... It just knotted up that stomach even tighter. [00:02:59]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And then I started to develop this like splitting headache.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I’m like, “Oh fuck.”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, so then Mary was coming home and she was home in the afternoon and I had to go down the road of like trying to fix some (PAUSE) financial mistakes in my Quickbooks program with the business that I’m sort of transitioning out of. And I’m just like such a zero when it comes to that. So I had to go revisit tapes of being the failed businessman. You know? So like carrying that around and then like really not wanting to talk.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So like, “Let’s go try to see a movie.” You know, there’s nothing really. And so we’re going to watch a movie. Well, the Internet’s not working properly. So it’s just like, “Okay.” And I’m really just like... You know, the longer it’s going on... I don’t want to be too graphic. But you know that feeling when you’ve got to vomit and there’s just nothing that’s going to make it feel better unless you do. [00:04:15]

So it’s like, “Look, I just need to get some stuff out.” And I know that, you know... And she’s... You know, she’s not unaware that I’m like physically in a really bad place. You know? And I’m sure that probably on the outside it looked like someone who is going crazy. But it’s just like, “Okay, I’ve got to get this stuff out.” I just need to be heard. You know? So I launch into some of the stuff. And, again, you know, what’s coming out? Not 100% sure.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know? It’s like coming out. And I could sense that she was going to jump right in with, you know, being defensive about the stuff I’m spitting out. And I was able to say, “Look, you know, if you’re not in a position to be able to hear this right now, I understand and I’ll stop because I’m not in a place of arguing about this. I just need to get it all out. And if you can’t hear it right now, I understand. But that’s... If you’re going to... If this is going to happen, I just need to get this stuff out. You know?” [00:05:19]

THERAPIST: What was that like for you?

CLIENT: Again, it was kind of like the gestalt experience. It was kind of slow and I’m not really sure how I’m saying. It feels kind of awkward. But the more I was doing it, you know, I could just really feel just that sense of lightning. And it was like, “I know that this is what I need to be doing. I just need to be getting all of this crap out.”

THERAPIST: I mean, you are really in the heart of it.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (PAUSE) Yeah. So... (PAUSE) So I’m just like trying to stay with that, trying to stay with, you know, is that really what you feel? Is this what you’re... You know, it’s like... So I think I was able to get, you know... It seemed like okay. You know? [00:06:07]

This is probably all I’m going to be able to do right now. Not that it’s all said. You know? But...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Because I couldn’t go there. I couldn’t say, “I don’t love you anymore and I want out.” You know?

THERAPIST: What was that like for you to say that to yourself?

CLIENT: (PAUSE) Well, it’s truth. It’s where I’m at. I know it’s truth. But it’s just like... (PAUSE) Okay, for me to speak my truth, I have to go down to the place of watching somebody’s life just crumble. (PAUSE) And, you know... After I was able to get my stuff out, you know... You know, it was kind of like I can tell, you know, that she’s standing there. I recognize that, you know, when I’m looking into her eyes, you know, all I see is the fear and I think that that’s all I’ve ever seen. [00:07:07]

THERAPIST: Tell me more about that.

CLIENT: You know, recognizing that it’s like... (SIGH) (PAUSE) I’ve experienced other relationships. I’ve experienced other friendship and you know that there’s something in the gaze where you can connect with somebody on a deeper level.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And I... You know, all I’ve been able to connect with I think is the fear. I don’t... There’s not that connection of...

THERAPIST: Fear that the marriage is going to fail and that you’re going to leave.

CLIENT: That I’m going to leave. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And what impact did that have on you, Seamus?

CLIENT: I think that it just allowed me to be able to say... It’s like, “Look. You know, if we’re going to continue in this, it’s got to be all in. It’s got to be... I’ve got to have... We’ve got to be both completely honest. You know, this is... You know, we’ve got to march completely honest forward in this. You know? Because whatever it was, that’s over. Because the key, one of the key ingredients for what that was has changed. You know? And I’ve changed it.” [00:08:17]

THERAPIST: You’ve changed. Right.

CLIENT: You know? And it’s like... It’s not going to be the same.

THERAPIST: What is this doing to you? I mean, I know what it’s doing to you physically. But what’s it doing to you emotionally to really admit these things to yourself?

CLIENT: (SIGH) What’s it doing to me emotionally? (PAUSE) Well, I think it’s just put me, it’s just pushing me closer to the cliff. You know?

THERAPIST: What’s on the other side of the cliff you think? [00:08:55]

CLIENT: I’m going to have to take the leap into just saying, “I’m out.” You know? That’s what it feels like to me. It’s like I don’t... At this point, it’s like the path, the path is marching off the cliff and jumping into whatever it is.

THERAPIST: Which is preferable to staying on?

CLIENT: (PAUSE) Yeah. I had to go to a... I chose to go to a faculty dinner Saturday night. It was an awards banquet. So I’m sitting around the table with the music faculty. So these are the people that Mary works with.

THERAPIST: Oh her faculty dinner. Okay.

CLIENT: (SIGH) You know, her best friend Lisa and her husband Rory are there and, you know... There’s another one of the women from the faculty who I suppose probably is in on what’s going on.

THERAPIST: Okay. [00:09:59]

CLIENT: So it’s like at least half of the people at the table are like...

THERAPIST: It sounds like hell.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I’m like, “Really? Why are you wanting to do this? Why are you going to do this? What’s...”

THERAPIST: Going to do what? Make you go to that... Have you at the dinner?

CLIENT: Yeah. Why am I going to this dinner. You know, and I’m like asking myself ahead of time. It’s like there’s nothing that feels like you want to be doing this. What the hell are you going this for?

THERAPIST: You yourself or what Mary? Okay. Yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s me, inner conversation. So I’m like... So I think ultimately I just decided, “You know what? I’m going to go.”

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And I’m just going to try to stay with, just be aware of what’s going on, you know, feeling wise. And it really was this hellish experience for me.

THERAPIST: I can imagine. Because it’s a lie.

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: It’s phony. It’s fake.

CLIENT: The whole thing was.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, and I just was like... It took all of my skills, you know, to stay in that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I recognized just the screaming and yelling that’s going on inside. And it’s like I know that the only way that I was able to get through those kind of things in the past is just to shut down. [00:11:09]

You know what? I recognize that it doesn’t make any difference what relationship you’re in. I mean, there are some things we go and we do because they’re an obligation.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And you do it and you get through it and blah, blah, blah. You know? And not everything has to be, you know, that, you know, you always have to be in this place with me. “Well, if I don’t feel like doing it, I’m not going to go do it.” I think. I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Right. Because that’s not how relationships work. But it’s interesting that you should bring up Gestalt because... And I don’t know how much you know about Gestalt. Do... A little bit. Okay. There’s a personality structure in Gestalt that talks about peeling back the layers. Right? The first one is I think the phony layer and the second one is the phobic layer. Right? You know, and you peel back... There’s the implosive and the explosive... I can’t remember all of them. [00:12:05]

But then, you know, that’s the whole purpose of gestalt therapy, to increase awareness. I actually showed a video of Fritz Perl (ph) last night in class. So it’s interesting that this should come up today. You know, and he talks about body awareness and wholeness. But you peel back the layers and then you have the genuine authentic self which is something that’s very hard to do and be. Right? And you’re talking in so many words about peeling back the layers and not being able to take the phony, phobic layer. And I want to take you back a bit when you first came in and I asked you if you liked your wife. And that was a question that was so hard for you to look at. You kind of pushed it away and you kind of pushed back kind of not wanting to look at the anger. And you’ve really moved really quickly to sort of not being able to tolerate any phoniness, fakeness, something that’s not real for you. [00:12:59]

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think that that’s really... You know, it’s got to be jarring for everybody around me.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s jarring for me.

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

CLIENT: And I’m just like... You know, I find that it’s, it’s affecting so much. You know, it’s just affecting everything.

THERAPIST: Tell me how it’s...

CLIENT: I mean I... You know, I’ve not handled it well. (PAUSE) And I recognize that, you know, this whole process and all the turmoil that I’m in right now is...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I’m supposed to be doing this little five hour a week tuition waiver thing...

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: ...with one of the professors. And, you know, and I’m like... I felt early on like I should have declined it.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: A, because I’m not sure I really had time to do it. And then, B, it’s not something I give a shit about. (WHISPERING)

THERAPIST: Okay. [00:13:57]

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) And I’m supposed to be doing research and I’m supposed to be reading research articles and reviewing them and submitting reviews. And I’m like, “I don’t even know what the hell I’m reading.”

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: You know? And I’m like... So, there’s just this like, “Ah, I’ll do anything.” So I know subconsciously it’s like, “Well, this is my lowest priority.”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So what happens, you know... Well, I’ve put it off for a couple of weeks.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And then this shit hits.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And then it’s like, you know... So... (SIGH) I recognize that, you know, in kind of retrospect, the first... Maybe me now would have been able to go in and say, “Yeah. You know what? I need to decline this because I can’t do this.”

THERAPIST: Right. But you couldn’t at the time.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: But, you know, this is as much a surprise to you as much as anybody else. This is the you that always was. I mean, this is... But, you know, when you say, you know, you’re screwing up everybody’s life and that kind of thing, I think you’re going through a period of transition. And when one person, as you know, in a family changes, everybody has to change. [00:15:03]

But is it screwing up someone else’s life? Your wife would probably say yes. But I think there’s a different interpretation of that because you were dying. Right? I remember actively thinking after some of our early sessions that, you know, what your potential was, you know, and the fact that I just felt so much for you because I saw you dying.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right? And not wanting to be emotionally dead anymore but sort of really struggling with not only admitting your own truth but what it means to who you say you are. Right? And I think that’s the process that’s being challenged here. Who you say you are you have always been this person. But you haven’t always felt safe enough.

CLIENT: Well, and somebody else reflected that back to me recently...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...very recently. And it’s like, “Look, you keep saying that you’re an inauthentic person, that you’ve lived an inauthentic life. It’s like that’s not true. You know? That...” And I guess that I admit that when I think about this network of people that I’ve kind of gone around and I’ve set up, you know, to kind of support me through this...

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:16:15]

CLIENT: ...it’s like, “Well, I’ve got authentic relationships with all of these people don’t I?”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s just that for whatever reason, you know, and I’m sure the list is long, I can’t be authentic in this marriage.

THERAPIST: Well, you are now. (PAUSE) And that’s not... That’s a combination of two people as well as a culture, a family culture, a couple culture. That’s not just you. That was the agreed upon contract and when you changed the contract, everything has to change. But both of you for years agreed upon that contract.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: The problem is you want to renegotiate the terms of maybe you want to walk away from the contract altogether and that’s what’s different. And you know what? As sad and as painful... As excruciatingly painful as it is and what this means to your life and hers, you have a right to do that. [00:17:03]

You do have a right to do that.

CLIENT: I think that that’s probably where I’m at right now. It’s like I’m not sure that I believe that I do.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I mean, there’s a cognitive part of me that, you know, like gets that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then there’s the other part of me that’s like, you know...

THERAPIST: Tell me about the other part.

CLIENT: Well, it’s buying into her story. It’s like, “I’ve sacrificed this and I’ve done all I could. I’ve tried to get you to feel. I’ve tried to get you to talk and blah, blah, blah.”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s like wow. After listening to all that, you know, it’s like I’m pretty sure I must be the most selfish narcissistic bastard that’s ever lived.

THERAPIST: Well, okay. Let’s say you are. Now what? What does that change then?

CLIENT: It doesn’t change anything. I mean, the bottom line is, “Okay. Yep. I did all that.” It’s like... But the bottom line is, you know, “I really don’t want to go to a movie with you tonight.”

THERAPIST: Right. [00:18:01]

CLIENT: “I really don’t want to be having, to be sitting here looking into your eyes that are just about ‘Are you going to leave me?’“ You know, and knowing that there’s all of this vitriol. There’s all of this vitriol there. But I’m willing to forgive all that if you’ll just come back. You know, she uses the words and I’m just like, “This is really insightful.” And as she was saying it, it’s just like, “Ugh...”

THERAPIST: What words?

CLIENT: She goes, “I know... You know, what I hold onto is this kernel of you, you know, who this true part of you and who you are and I’m just holding onto this kernel. And I’m just, you know, waiting for you to come back.”

THERAPIST: And how was that for you? [00:19:07]

CLIENT: And I’m like, “You’re just not there. You just... Whatever that kernel was that you’re hanging onto, I’m not that guy five minutes after you hung onto that kernel.” It’s like I want to be known for who I am right now. I’ve wanted to be known for who I am right now for a very long damn time.

THERAPIST: Sure. Right.

CLIENT: And it’s like... I get it. You know? “I’m not meeting that picture so you don’t get anything.”

THERAPIST: Well, you know, this is not a matter of rightness or wrongness.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: I think that’s the most frustrating part of it. So if you do say, yes, you’re a selfish bastard, the... Now what? You know? We could look at it and put blame on both sides. I don’t think it’s about blame. Her perspective is valid from her perspective and yours is valid from yours. But you can’t go back to the way things were. [00:19:59]

It... You can’t. You can’t physically. You can’t emotionally. You can’t psychologically. You can’t. Like, you know, sometimes once you just break it, it’s broken. Right? Now, it doesn’t mean you can’t put it back together if that’s what you want. But that’s a break in there. And you can’t... You refuse to go back to it like that. You know? And it seems like, from at least what you’re telling me, every statement she makes is confirmation that she doesn’t get you. She just wants to hold onto the marriage because it paints a pretty picture. Right? But it’s an empty marriage from your perspective. So what picture is that? And the picture, in some ways, is soul destroying for you because it’s just a picture. You know, I think you gave the analogy of saying, you know, “This is not a marriage bed. So what difference does it mean if I go upstairs? It hasn’t been a marriage bed in a long time.”

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) Yeah. (SIGH) Yeah.

THERAPIST: I wish it didn’t have to be so painful but oftentimes feeling is pain. And it’s excruciating. It really is. I mean, it’s just... And this is something that you’re going to be going through a long time. Right? [00:21:09]

And I’ll tell you know, Seamus, she’s never going to come over and fully get it. Right? You may never fully get it from her that... Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. No. I think that’s where I’ve come to recognize. And it’s like there’s probably no amount of counseling that’s going to do this especially if she’s not willing to engage in her own personal counseling.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and, you know, I mean, I believe that people can change and I believe that people can see one another even through the toughest times if that’s the desired point. Right? If that’s where you want to get to. But you’re in the process of deciding if that’s what you want to do.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: Right?

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: And when you said two times, “I want out. I don’t... This isn’t working. I want out...” Those are pretty powerful statements to be making. Those are statements you haven’t made before. You have hinted at it. You know, you have kind of touched it a little bit. [00:22:09]

But, in your own gestalt exercise, you said it to the chair and you said it in here.

CLIENT: Yeah. (SIGH) Yeah. And I thought those were just words that I could never, ever say.

THERAPIST: Well, you spoke the hell out of them pretty definitively. And I... Only you can decide if that’s your answer but considering that’s not an area where you would touch before probably because deep down you knew the answer for you.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, it’s like, “Shit.” You know? I know that I’ve been living with this reality for years. You know? I really do. It’s just like, you know... I had a... I don’t know if I was telling you this. But a friend of mine who’s, you know, just this gritty redneck...

THERAPIST: You told me a bit about him. Yes. [00:22:57]

CLIENT: I mean, he’s like, “You’ve been telling me this shit for ten years.”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know, it’s like... It’s not anything that, you know, I haven’t been afraid to tell somebody at some point.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But too afraid to think it or to really consider it.

THERAPIST: You are ready.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You weren’t ready.

CLIENT: Yeah. And there were other conditions. It was like, “You’re not going to do this while the kids are around.”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Maybe. You know... (SIGH) So I know that this, what’s left in here is, I think, it’s just going there. And I’m going to carry this around whether I go there or not.

THERAPIST: Go there where?

CLIENT: I mean, just hit the final button. You know, can I really go there? You know, it’s like...

THERAPIST: Well, where are you with that?

(PAUSE) [00:24:00]

CLIENT: I really don’t know. You know? I mean, in terms of authenticity, you know, it’s like, “Am I really being authentic going to counseling?

THERAPIST: Going into it or coming here?

CLIENT: Marriage counseling.

THERAPIST: Marriage counseling.

CLIENT: Am I really being authentic because it’s like... I really felt like the best answer or the only answer I could give this guy last week was, “Here’s what I got. You know? We just need to get shit out on the table.”

THERAPIST: How is that not authentic?

CLIENT: Because I think that underneath it, you know, there’s just this deep sense of, “I don’t think this is going to work.”

THERAPIST: Yeah. And you know what? I think it’s sort of not about whether it works or whether it doesn’t. In some ways, it’s about the process. And you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror. And maybe part of being able to look yourself in the mirror is to do due diligence in the relationship. [00:25:01]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So you still remain true to yourself but going to counseling, whether it works or doesn’t... Right? I still think... Remember, we talked about on the phone a different one possibly. It’s sort of like... You guys have been married for almost thirty years. And in some ways, if this is ending, you have to see it to its end so that when you’re done, if this is the course that it’s taking, you say, “You know what? I tried and the answer was still the same for me.” Right? So although it may seem like, you know, “I don’t know if this is going to work...” You know, a lot of couples feel that way when they go into counseling. You know, and although I don’t think there’s going to be some miracle and everything’s going to be perfect... I don’t believe that things work like that. You have to do your due diligence and I think that’s why you’re doing it. [00:25:59]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I know that it’s just the hardest damn work I’ve ever done before.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah. And probably some of the most painful.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What do you do with all of that pain?

CLIENT: (SIGH) Well, not sleep too well. There’s that. (PAUSE) You know, mostly run away. You know, spending more and more time up here as opposed to being home. You know, and I recognize it’s like... This whole career path, you know, I’ve set up conditions. I’ve set up conditions to be locked into a career path or, you know, a graduate school program where I don’t have to be at home. I don’t have to be around. You know? So now that all the kids are gone, you know...

THERAPIST: Are you the only one doing that? [00:27:01]

CLIENT: I wasn’t...

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: ...until I hit the button.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And now it’s like, “Well, where are you? Why aren’t you here?”

THERAPIST: Sure. But again, the contract has changed. See before, both of you were doing that. Right? She with all the kind of commitments with music stuff and with Lisa, right, and you in school. Right? And are you running away or are you getting space? Because it’s...

CLIENT: Oh it’s space.

THERAPIST: Yeah. So before I would have said, “Yeah, I can see where you could see that as running away because you’re running away from dealing.” But you’re constantly dealing with it now. It ain’t going anywhere. I mean, it’s constant. It’s with you when you sleep. It’s with you when you’re here. You know, you are having conversations about it. So I don’t see it as running away.

CLIENT: No. I’m fully immersed in it.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: You know, I’ve spent quite a bit of time...

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: ...with a number of different friends...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...dealing with this issue. It’s just like... You know, and I’m grateful, you know, intensely grateful for all of these people that are allowing me to just come in and emotionally vomit at their feet. And that’s really gratifying. [00:28:11]

But... (PAUSE) Yeah. Where was I going with that?

THERAPIST: Tell me what you’re feeling right now.

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s just hard.

THERAPIST: Hard meaning really hurting.

CLIENT: But feeling kind of buoyed up by, you know, the network of people that I’ve got and it’s like, “Okay, you know, I know this is really hard and... But I just have to keep marching through it.” You know?

THERAPIST: What’s the hardest part about it for you?

CLIENT: I think watching Mary disintegrate. I really... (SIGH) (PAUSE) You know, I could potentially see her just like giving up. [00:29:01]

You know, and not committing suicide but, you know, something physically happening to her that, you know, would just put her into some kind of a physical state or, you know, she would have a stroke or whatever. I mean, she’s had a history of really serious migraines that I’m sure, in my opinion, are related to the abuse issue and her inability to deal with that. And it’s like, you know, she’s always... She’s always thinking that these headaches are going to. It’s like, “Well, you know, maybe it’s a stroke.” It’s almost like she’s talking herself into it. Kind of...

THERAPIST: So you are taking some of this on.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. (PAUSE) Yeah. So it’s recognizing that, you know, it’s just against my nature as a person to, you know, feel somebody, you know, experiencing that much pain and not have this incredible empathy. [00:30:09]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, and I’m like... I understand and I really do see that perhaps the most empathetic thing that I could do or the most beneficial thing that I could do is to just do this and perhaps...

THERAPIST: Do what?

CLIENT: Get out.

THERAPIST: You mean leave the relationship?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Why is that the most empathetic thing?

CLIENT: Because maybe it would actually force her, you know, to deal with some issues. I don’t know. Because right now it’s like, you know, she’s just grasping at whatever little thing she can grasp onto. It’s like... You know, she said something to me the other night. And I’m like, “I didn’t give you any indication, outside of the fact that I’ve like let up on some of the anger...” Because it’s just really hard, you know, to be in that place of anger all the time. [00:31:03]

And, you know, it’s like just ask the question. “How are you doing?” You know, and I feel like, you know, I backed off of the anger a little bit and just asked the question, “How are you doing?” And it’s like she’s interpreting that as, “Well, at least we’re both committed to fixing up the relationship.” I’m like...

THERAPIST: But that’s the very reason why you can’t, you don’t want to go home because home, once again, you know, this sort of needy representation... You know, before she was ignoring you. You had a pat on the head or a kiss on the cheek. And now she’s home but it’s, you know... I’m wondering if you sort of don’t see it as superficial, a little too late. And, you know, it’s almost like you have an aversive reaction to it because, you know, it’s so skims the surface, desperation to hold onto what?

CLIENT: Exactly. [00:31:57]

THERAPIST: This thing that you don’t even want.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right? And if she looked at it, right, really imagined it as opposed to saying the marriage but what is comprised of the marriage, you know, what does she get out of it as well?

CLIENT: I mean, like you’re hanging onto... You know, it’s like how long? “In your words, you’re describing how I’ve been over the last seven years that, you know, I’ve been a bump on the log. You know, you’ve had to drag me to everything that I didn’t engage in stuff, you know, that I was, you know, verbally sarcastic and unkind to you.” It’s like, “What about that do you want to hang on to?

THERAPIST: Sure. It’s like the kernel of you.

CLIENT: “And if I go back, that’s the guy you get.”

THERAPIST: Well, you can’t go back.

CLIENT: I know. But I’m just saying it’s like...

THERAPIST: But seven years ago though... That’s what she said? “Seven years ago?”

CLIENT: Well, I don’t know if she did. I know that’s...

THERAPIST: Yeah because that’s when you guys stopped having sex.

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:32:59]

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, and longer really.

THERAPIST: But that’s where that final connection was broken. So other connections were broken up to that point.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, at that point, to me, that was almost like the final straw.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know? Prior to that, it was living with years of rejection and feeling like I was a sexual predator and a pariah and whatnot. So it’s like...

THERAPIST: Tell me about feeling like a sexual predator.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. I mean, it’s just... Yeah. You know, it’s like once it became known that the sexual abuse issue was something that was the fabric of our marriage, then it’s like, “Great. Now I’m in the position of if I want to initiate a sexual experience, then, you know, that’s I’m sure how I’m being portrayed.” And it’s like, “Okay. Well then, that just kind of puts me in shutdown mode.” [00:34:03]

You know? Or what you end up learning over time that the only way that’s going to happen is if you start, you know, plying her with two or three martinis. And then it’s like... Doesn’t that feel special? You know, then you still feel like a sexual manipulator.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And it’s like... There’s no intimacy in that. It’s like...

THERAPIST: So you just quit that.

CLIENT: Yeah. And eventually it’s like, “Yeah. I’m done with this. I’m done with drinking. I’m done with the whole nine yards.”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, I didn’t like what drinking was doing to me and it’s just like cold turkey, done.

THERAPIST: Sure. Well, that was a way of coping.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But, you know, of course, for her to not have sex and to not be asked was a relief.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. [00:34:59]

THERAPIST: But, for you, it’s the opposite of that.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. It’s just been like the shutdown of everything.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s like there is no emotional relationship here because there’s no vulnerability. There’s no openness.

THERAPIST: But her grieving process now, her fear, her panic, right, are things, you know, her suffering is reflective of your own for years. You understand? So it’s just you had been in pain and suffering for all these years for wanting this connection, denying yourself of a voice to say anything. Right? And you finally exploded. Well, what you’re seeing, right, is kind of she’s kicked out of denial because you’re kicked out of denial and now you’re just seeing her reflection of the pain that you both feel. You know? You’re both in pain here.

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, this is not, you know... Whatever happens, you don’t come away from this things absolutely clean. It hurts you. It hurts you to see her hurting. And it hurts you deeply. [00:36:11]

CLIENT: Yeah. But for me to sit here and say that I can just forgive and forget and move on and pretend that none of that ever happened and to pretend that everything’s hunky dory and it’s not...

THERAPIST: Well, that’s not possible.

CLIENT: Let’s revisit all of those, you know, those feelings that you had for each other 27, 28 years ago when you first got together. It’s like... I can’t fucking remember anything.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: There’s nothing there. You know? It’s like I have to get through so many layers of crap to even get back down there that I’m like... And when I get there, it’s like, “Yeah, we’re so far removed from that.”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, there’s been too damn much water under the bridge.

THERAPIST: What... So are you guys going to go back to this guy? [00:36:59]

CLIENT: Yeah. I’ll go Wednesday and we’ll see. I’ll try it one more time and, again, I’ll be in my truth. And it’s like, “Yeah, William. No...”

THERAPIST: Yeah. So what would it... You know, and I’m laughing because I told you when we talked over the phone that we had to fire... My husband and I had to fire a couples’ therapist. Right? Because he just... You know, and I remember there was a point in the session where we said to him, “We don’t want this. We want this.” Right? And I wonder for you, if you could tell him what you want.

CLIENT: Well, I think that what I want is like, “William, we need to get everything out on the table, A, you know, so we can see what we’re clearly looking at. I want to be heard. And then it’s like... Departure is from here. Whatever that was, that was a snapshot of a long damn time ago.”

THERAPIST: Right. [00:37:57]

CLIENT: “And I’m not sure that I can make any connection to that at all.

THERAPIST: Or you even want to at this point.

CLIENT: Or even want to. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. But tell him and, I mean, and sometimes a worthy discussion with Mary about what she wants to get out of it. Right? But that didn’t serve your needs. And I think you can say, “This isn’t working for me. The solution focused approach, given how much water is under the bridge, to the point where we’re drowning, that’s not going to work because I don’t even want to go back and look at who we were 27 years ago. I want to look at right now because I’m in my right now. You know, I can’t even connect to that.”

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that’s where it’s at. So that’s... Yeah. That’s the hard stuff.

THERAPIST: A lot, a lot of hard stuff.

CLIENT: Yeah. How are we doing?

THERAPIST: We’re doing perfect.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:38:59]

THERAPIST: Where are your kids in all this? I know over the weekend you told me you talked to your son who was pretty supportive.

CLIENT: Yeah. I haven’t really talked to the other two.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I would imagine that, you know, my daughter... I mean, she’s immersed in trying to get through a musical right now. So she teaches all day and musical practice all night.

THERAPIST: What is... What are their years again?

CLIENT: She’s 25, out teaching for three years. The other one’s... The middle one’s a senior in college and the youngest is a freshman. So... We have to go drive down to southern Illinois, three hour car drive.

THERAPIST: It is. In Pocahontas or Ferguson (ph)?

CLIENT: No. Taylorville.

THERAPIST: Where is Taylorville?

CLIENT: Halfway between Belleville and Decatur.

THERAPIST: Yeah okay.

CLIENT: It’s in everybody’s favorite pee spot.

THERAPIST: Okay. (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: It’s the only wide place the road where you’ve got a decent exit there. But, you know, we’re supposed to drive down together on Friday.

THERAPIST: And what’s on Friday? [00:40:01]

CLIENT: Her musical. Penelope’s directing this musical or no, not directing, she’s the musical director of this musical. We’re going to go down and see that. So it’s like...

THERAPIST: How will that be, three hours in the car?

CLIENT: Long.

THERAPIST: Yes. Right. And I remember when you were just kind of getting started with being open and honest, you would want, you wanted the time with her and she didn’t. And now... I know because I remember there was an incident where she could have chosen to drive with you but she drove with Lisa. And now the last thing that you want is a car ride. What are you going to do with the car ride?

CLIENT: (SIGH) Well, you know, I guess the bottom line is just stay in authenticity. You know? And if I can’t go there, I’m just going to have to say, “We can’t talk about that.”

THERAPIST: Do you still love her? [00:40:57]

CLIENT: You know, that’s an interesting question.

THERAPIST: It is.

CLIENT: You know, do I still love her? You know, there’s a lot of... You know, love is one of those tricky words to define.

THERAPIST: It is.

CLIENT: Do I love her as a person?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, I want the best for her. I care about her. You know, she’s part of my family. You know?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: It’s like I love her like I love, you know, Delia who lives with us and I love her like, you know... Do I love her as much as my kids? Probably not.

THERAPIST: Sure. Different kind of love.

CLIENT: Different kind of love.

THERAPIST: But I... Here’s why I ask. I’m not asking if you’re in love with your wife. I’m asking if you love her because that’s why when she hurts, you hurt. Right? It’s not that you don’t love her and care about her. It’s you don’t know if you want to be married to her or if you have romantic feelings or if you like her or if... Love is complicated. Right? [00:42:01]

And so that’s why you’re impacted deeply by this because you do love and care about her. The marriage isn’t working. Right? If you, if she was, if you were, she was a hateful bitch and awful and horrible, in some ways...

CLIENT: It’d be easier.

THERAPIST: ...it’d be easier. Right. But to see her vulnerable because of your reaction is difficult. But I think in whatever conversations that you have, part of the authenticity is, “I do love and care about you. I don’t know though where I am in terms of wanting to be married because I feel like I have not been happy in our marriage for years.” And both of those pieces of data are true. That’s why it’s complicated. Because both of those pieces of data are true and they will probably always be true.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It’s sort of like, you know, if, you know, if this wasn’t... If we weren’t talking about marriage but if you think back to the woman who you were engaged to. Right? You might not say you love her today. But you do care. If you heard that something bad had happened to her, you would have sad feelings about that probably You want her to be okay. [00:43:11]

She’s not part of your life. Right? This isn’t somebody who you kind of hold a candle for. Right? You know, but it’s somebody who you had a connection with. You’re not emotionally immune to that connection. Right? Well, that’s an even more way here. You’ve had children with this woman. You have a history. You know, there are parts of you that know her and there are parts of her that know you and then there are parts that don’t know each other well at all. You know, complicated because both of those are true. It makes it very complicated. It is not a cut and dry case and it won’t be.

CLIENT: Yeah. I know.

THERAPIST: But that’s what makes you... When you get to thinking about, “Well, I’m causing her pain...” Well, you are not the bad guy. [00:43:59]

There is no fricking bad guy. There’s no bad guy here.

CLIENT: Yeah. I just need to hang onto that because (PAUSE) she’s very convincing.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Because she’s very scared.

THERAPIST: She is very scared.

CLIENT: And I get that. So...

THERAPIST: Yeah. But there is not bad guy. Sometimes shit doesn’t work. We can look at why but in the end sometimes it just doesn’t work or, you know, a relationship is uneven. One person is in love with the other person and the other person isn’t. And it’s painful and it’s screwed up. But there’s no way to make it.. I mean, it’s just unbalanced.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:45:00]

CLIENT: You know, and I get... Yeah. And try as hard as I can, you know, it’s just like I can’t bring myself back to that. You know, and it’s like... You know, I felt like why, why all of this... You know, and it’s not a huge place to go. You know? It’s just like years of accumulated feelings like this. And it’s like, you know... (PAUSE) You know, I was able to tell her. It’s like, “Look. The anger that I’m feeling is not some kind of a random anger feeling.”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: The feeling that I have is, and the feelings that I’m trying to deal with, you know, is being in a relationship for seven years where the other person in the relationship has had an affair and you’re witnessing all of this and you’re just allowing it to happen. I mean, that’s what I’m feeling. That’s what it feels like from my side of the chair. [00:46:05]

THERAPIST: An emotional affair.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it’s just like that’s just really, really, really hard. You know? So...

THERAPIST: But as you process that piece with the therapist because that’s what has to be out there... Put that out there. Right? Don’t forget all parts of the truth. If you look at all parts of the truth, you do love and care about this woman, you know, and you’re sorry and she’s in pain and you’re sorry that you’re in pain. Right? That is a part of the truth. You are not the bad guy. You are not a bad guy. You are not.

CLIENT: (SIGH) Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right? You’re not the bad guy. In some ways, you cannot put on the bad guy cloak, you can’t because if you’re going to be genuine and honest about everything, that’s not a piece that fits. [00:46:59]

You can feel like the bad guy or you can feel somewhat guilty or I wish... You know you wish it was a clean break or whatever. You can feel and you can wish but you cannot don on the bad guy cape because that’s not true data. It’s not. You know, like I said, you can feel whatever it is you need to feel but you can’t put that on. You’ve been wearing that shit for years. And it’s not accurate. Right? She can have her perspective and be angry and hurt and you get it. I mean, you have empathy for that. Right? But there is no blame here. Right? It’s a two person contract that was agreed upon by both of you for years and now the contract isn’t working anymore.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And as shitty as that is, that’s life. That’s life. Right? No matter how much we wish it otherwise, you know, and our relationships are not always on the same page as the person we’re with and that’s painful. [00:48:11]

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s painful. It’s painful. And it’s like... (PAUSE) Yeah. And there’s... Yeah. All of the defense mechanisms, all of the clinging and all the, all of that stuff coming out.

THERAPIST: Sure. She’s in a completely different process point than you are.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right. In some ways, you might have a better ability to hear her than she you at this point.

CLIENT: Yeah. And...

THERAPIST: Not that you want to be hearing a lot of that but...

CLIENT: No. I get it. But she’s... Yeah. You know, so it’s difficult, you know, when she’s throwing out the “for better or for worse.” It’s like, “Yeah, but I don’t know. I’m not... I’m thinking that sounds a little... All of that sounds a little coercive at this point.” [00:49:11]

THERAPIST: Yeah. See that’s not... That’s the desperation talking and not the... Which this is new for her. So I get it. But that’s not going to pull you closer. Right?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But, Seamus, it would have worked before. That’s the point. Do you understand? Because when I came in here and I asked and we talked a little bit about divorce or whatever and you said, “I took vows.” Right? Like this is kind of the way it is. This is why I’m stuck. Right? That would have worked before.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But that doesn’t work anymore. There’s no way for her to know that doesn’t work right now. Right? Right now it’s aversive to you. You know? Like, “That’s all you got? Like, ugh.” But that would have worked before because that’s what you said. That’s what you projected, right, that you... You know? And now that’s not okay anymore. And that’s not a switcheroo or a bait and switch. That shit just happens in real life. [00:50:09]

It just happens.

CLIENT: It happened day by day, year by year.

THERAPIST: Sure, sure, sure.

CLIENT: Incident by incident. Whatever.

THERAPIST: The... You would have been here seven years ago, ten years ago, the next ten years might have looked very different. And we can only be where we are. But you just got here today. But this was always the point unless you remained in kind of some very deep denial. This was always the point. You know, and I... You know, as being honored to bear witness to, even though it’s a painful struggle... When you first came to this point, this was always there from the minute you walked through the door.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. [00:51:03]

THERAPIST: You know? And so, you know, and I watched the process of you stabbing yourself with denial and how difficult it was for you to sort of, you know, be stuck and be there and think that, “This is my life and I don’t like any parts of it and I’m not getting anything, what I need...” You know, I wonder if when you think back on this, will you think that painful point, as awful as it is, is still more preferable to the forcefield.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. I mean... And I think this is why I continue to be able to stand in it and be willing to stand in it because it’s... It’s just hard. And I feel like it’s just kind of a thing where I get up daily and it’s like you really have to like steady yourself. It’s like, “Okay. We just keep moving forward with this.”

THERAPIST: It’s an incredibly brave thing to do.

(PAUSE) [00:52:00]

THERAPIST: Incredibly brave.

CLIENT: Well, I’ll try to hear that but it just... Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, sure because you’d had it the other way before. I mean, the reason why it’s brave it because it’s really hard.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: When you say, “This is the nuclear option,” it is. This is what you were fleeing from for years.

CLIENT: Yeah. So... Yeah. I get that... Yeah. I get that I’m that guy that pulled the plug and walked off the stage.

THERAPIST: What do you mean “that guy that pulled the plug?”

CLIENT: Oh I don’t know. I suppose that that’s one of those things that I’m going to have to get over that too. I guess I’m hearing her language in that. It’s like, “I can’t believe he turned out to be one of those guys that would just throw it all away for, you know, whatever, you know, whatever...”

THERAPIST: Which guy was that? The one who stayed in the marriage for almost 35 years? The one who’s going to counseling? The one who has not had an affair? Which guy was that? This is not she got breast cancer and you left, you had a disabled guy and said, “Forget this.” [00:53:11]

That’s that guy. Which guy are we talking about?

CLIENT: Well, in her way of thinking.

THERAPIST: Which guy do we mean now? Like, “I can’t believe you’re that guy.” Which guy? Are we pulling the plug, what, to go and have an affair with a 22 year old? That’s not what I’m hearing. That’s not what you’re saying. That’s that guy. See, you keep... You’re hearing that guy. That’s where you put yourself. But you are the guy. You are that guy that said, “I can’t fucking take it anymore.” Right? “I need closeness. I need physical intimacy. I need warmth and caring.” That’s the guy you are. And where is the bullshit in that? So that’s that guy. So when you hear “that guy” or you think “that guy,” be that guy that you are not the guy that’s being projected to be. [00:54:00]

You cannot put on that cloak. Right? It makes no sense. Right? We’re not talking about three years into a marriage. We’re talking about 27 of which you, you know... If you told everybody, “By the way, this has been a sexless marriage for seven or eight years,” most guys would tell you what?

CLIENT: Are you fucking nuts?

THERAPIST: Are you fucking kidding me? Right? No way. That’s grounds for immediate dismissal. Right? You know, so, you know... And yet, through all of it, you know, you kind of stood there with it. You know, emotionally withdrawn, depressed, angry, whatever. Right? So when she says “that guy,” I can see where she’s saying that because she’s hurting and her world as she knows it is ending... It’s not ending. It ended. And what does that mean now? But when you say “that guy” you’re the guy that stayed there for 27 years.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:55:03]

THERAPIST: So don’t inherit that. It muddies the picture. It means it’s not clear.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (SIGH)

THERAPIST: How are you doing with my little diatribe there?

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) It’s... You know it’s why I’m here. It’s what I’m needing to hear because I’m like... I need to be bolstered up in being able to work forward with this because there’s just so many other stories that I’m, you know, that I’ve bought into over the years that it’s just really difficult to stand in this.

THERAPIST: Sure. But I want you to look at the history of your behavior and your commitment to your marriage. Right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, so this isn’t... Unfortunately, it’s not about that guy. And it would be nice if Lisa would understand that. She may never understand it. But that’s not... That’s not as... It’s important but it doesn’t change anything. It doesn’t change anything. Right? Because we only ever see things from our perspective most of the time. Right? [00:56:11]

But you are not that guy. You cannot take out the whip and whip your back with being that guy because it’s inaccurate. It’s just inaccurate. This is not you guys had a bad year in your marriage and you’re ready to call it quits. Right?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: This is not that simple. You know? And if you abuse yourself or muddy the picture with so much guilt and shame that you can’t see clearly, that’s not going to be you. You won’t come out of this having grown. Right? So...

CLIENT: No. I mean, I don’t want to be going through all of this, all of this work, all of this pain and suffering only to end up, you know, back in some, you know, place that’s like this much better than what it was. [00:57:09]

THERAPIST: Right. But you can always feel for her circumstance and feel that this is a sad ending. Right? It’s a sad ending to a story, a history, you know, a life with someone and that’s always devastating. Right? No matter what was good or bad. Right? You had children together. You had a vision together. It didn’t turn out the way that you wanted it or needed it to be and so that is devastating. Right? And she feels that devastation just like you do. You just interpret it differently. But the story’s changed and stories always change whether we want them to or not.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: How are you doing right now?

CLIENT: (SIGH) Just tough stuff, tough stuff, tough stuff. You know, knowing that I’ve got to do the counseling thing tomorrow...

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:58:05]

CLIENT: We’ll see how that goes.

THERAPIST: Let me know. Drop me an e-mail. If you need me to call you, it’s not a problem. I certainly will. I don’t mind doing that at all.

CLIENT: Yeah. I appreciate that.

THERAPIST: Or if you don’t want to talk and you want to check in by e-mail... “We fired him. He got better...” Whatever.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And... (PAUSE) Yeah. You know, I think it’s just the hard work of like continuing to stand in the truth, continuing to try to send the message.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And it’s just like, you know, not probably not ready at this point yet to be able to say my truth.

THERAPIST: Sure. Well, and maybe the truth is still validated. But it’s a very, very brave thing because it pushes all your buttons, all the buttons about being liked and all those buttons are being pushed and that’s what makes it so brave. [00:59:03]

CLIENT: Yeah. Or stupid. One of the two.

THERAPIST: I don’t see stupid in this but...

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: Well, let me know how it goes.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Alright?

CLIENT: Thank you. I appreciate it all.

THERAPIST: No problem. I just wish it wasn’t so difficult.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So much of life is fucking difficult. (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: See you.

THERAPIST: See you later. Bye bye.

END TRANSCRIPT