TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: ...in their teaching practicum at University of St Francis. They’ve taught for me. So, you know, that’s... I was just out there.

CLIENT: He was like...

THERAPIST: He’s so funny. (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: He said, “Oh, I’m so glad to hear that you’re doing counseling with her.”

THERAPIST: Oh, you told him?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: He’s like, “Oh yeah. She’s the real thing.”

THERAPIST: He’s so silly. (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: No. Just listen to that. It’s okay.

THERAPIST: No, no. I appreciate it. But, I mean, he’s just silly.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. So...

THERAPIST: How are you?

CLIENT: Right now, I’m okay.

THERAPIST: Okay. I mean, you look a little better than last time.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. You know, I... Through conversations with friends and, you know, kind of my own processing, I have decided that the best thing for me to do right now is I’ve carved out this little safe space...

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: ...in my head and I’m calling it kind of this little middle path.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Instead of being really embroiled in all of the emotional garbage over here and wanting to run likes hell over here...

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:01:05]

CLIENT: ...I’m just like, “Well, why not just step out of both paths and just sit right here?”

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And it’s like just chill. You know, you’ve got a hell of a lot of work that needs to be done before you gnaw on the top end of May. It’s like, “Why don’t you focus on that and, you know, just take a breather from all of this emotional stuff.”

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So it’s, you know... I’ve kind of just kind of created this little time out in my head right now.

THERAPIST: Okay. And it’s working well.

CLIENT: It seems to be.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: It seems to be. I had to do a three hour drive to Taylorville to visit Penelope. I drove with Mary. Three hour drive back, you know... So that was six hours in the car and I survived.

THERAPIST: Yeah. How was that? (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: You know, I just kind of set my boundaries up front, you know, going in to it. Just kind of like, “Yeah, you know, I’m in this really guarded place and, you know, I’m not going to be able to go too deep with, you know, conversations and really just felt like I’m...” [00:02:15]

I can’t remember wording. I can’t... You know, I can only kind of remember the gist of the conversation but, you know, I just kind of put that out there up front and... Basically said, you know, because, you know, of course everything was back to normal or everything was fine getting into the car and going down to... And it’s like I’m feeling like the beaten dog, kind of skittish because I just had to endure, you know, like this hour long unleashing of all of this really ugly negative stuff the last time we got out of marriage counseling. [00:03:01]

So when we got to Taylorville, my daughter’s boyfriend has this dog that they rescued from a shelter. And we know the dog was abused. So he’s fine around females, not so much around guys.

THERAPIST: Not so much around guys. Yeah.

CLIENT: So he’s hiding underneath the table. I’m trying to coax him out a little bit. I’ve got a treat. He’s just like so tentative about coming out. And I’m like, “I feel your pain. I feel your pain man.”

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: It’s like, “You just stay under there. It’s okay.”

THERAPIST: “Stay under there.”

CLIENT: “I’ll just slide the treat in to you dude.”

THERAPIST: “You come out when you’re ready.”

CLIENT: So, you know, for me it’s kind of like this wild ride of, “Wait a minute. How can I be the most selfish, you know, cruel bastard in the world one day and then everything’s fine the next day.” [00:04:03]

THERAPIST: Is that the sense that you were getting from her that everything’s fine the next day when you don’t push to talk about things?

CLIENT: (SIGH) Yeah, I mean, like the anger thing was gone. You know? And it was like... So, you know, I kind of launched into my little spiel. “Hey, you know, I’m just really guarded and I know it’s from, reacting from where we were on Wednesday.” And it’s just like, “Yeah. I’m not feeling in a place where, you know, there’s a lot of trust here.” You know?

THERAPIST: What happened Wednesday with the counselor?

CLIENT: Oh, we didn’t talk about that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Oh my.

THERAPIST: Okay. (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: That was kind of a train wreck.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So, you know, we got in there and, you know, started talking about issues. But, you know, I really had a chance to kind of like open up and it’s like, “This has been my experience of what life without physical and emotional intimacy has been like for a long time.” [00:05:01]

Kind of laying out the pattern of, “We started to go the route of helping her deal with this issue when it came to light, you know, whatever, twelve, fifteen years ago.” And, you know, kind of like, “Well, I was kind of the guy, at that point, who was there to stand by her and help her and that kind of thing.” You know, again, I’m not 100% sure if I said this in the session or if we talked about it in the car on the way home or whatever. But, you know, it’s like, “I was there...”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: “...trying to do that twelve, fifteen years ago.” She came back from a couple of counseling sessions and she was done. It’s like... I got the message that I was one who had a problem for wanting to have a physical relationship. You know? I kept getting that message over and over and over and, you know, everything just spiraling down to... [00:05:55]

You know, so...

THERAPIST: How was that received in the session?

CLIENT: Well, the counselor was like, “Wow.” You know, there was almost kind of like, “Wow. You’ve endured seven years without any physical, you know, emotional, physical or emotional in your...” He said, “Most marriages wouldn’t have lasted that long.”

THERAPIST: How did that feel for you to be validated like that?

CLIENT: It was just like, “Oh, thank you.”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Somebody thinks I’m not crazy.

THERAPIST: Well, you know, as I said, I told you, nobody... That is, your expectations for physical and emotional intimacy are so normal. How was your... How did Mary respond?

CLIENT: Well, that was like grabbing onto the third wheel. You know? It was... (PAUSE) And then, it was kind of like towards the last ten minutes of the session that we started talking a little bit more about, you know, the sexual abuse piece. And, you know, she got, you know, really defensive and I could sense that, you know, what was going on in her eyes was the same kind of thing that I’ve sensed every time that we’ve ever attempted to broach that topic. [00:07:07]

There’s just like this, you know... There is a... I can’t necessarily describe it but there is a physically different look in her face, you know, just terror.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And so, you know, she was really getting worked up into an anger and it’s like, you know... And all of this stuff was coming out. It’s like... And starting to unleash that stuff on me in terms of like, “I can’t believe that you would turn out to be this guy and it’s really just all about sex.” And it just like... I’m like... So, part of me is like feeling like, “Well, at least the counselor is being able to hear all of this.”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Earlier in the session, he had kind of alluded to the... He had brought up some scriptural passages.

THERAPIST: Okay. How was that? [00:07:57]

CLIENT: Well, for me, I’m like, “We don’t need to go here.”

THERAPIST: Yeah. How odd the way he didn’t kind of check in regarding your religious affiliation.

CLIENT: He did. And like it’s spelled out on the page, you know, it’s like... And, you know, it’s like, “Yeah, I’m kind of not going there with the Christian church anymore and, you know, I’m kind of into Taoism now.” And it’s like...

THERAPIST: Still kind of a misread.

CLIENT: But he’s like, you know, and probably in Mary’s favor read a little differently but, you know, he’s coming from his own kind of evangelical bend or whatever. And I don’t know exactly. But he felt comfortable saying that, you know, “Ephesians 4 or 5, you know, says a man shall leave his mother... This is the way God intended marriage to be.” And I’m like...

THERAPIST: Oh boy. How was that?

CLIENT: Well, Mary... You know, Mary wasn’t taking that too well at all.

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: So that was pretty much a train wreck. After that, she’s like, “Yeah, no... We... That’s not going to work anymore.” So... [00:09:01]

THERAPIST: Wow. What are you... Hmm...

CLIENT: So we’re done. I had to call and fire him. So...

THERAPIST: Okay. (LAUGHTER) Are you looking for somebody else?

CLIENT: Well, you know, she’s grasping for some straw. I’ve got full court press going today. It’s like, “Did you find another counselor? Did you find another counselor? Well, here’s a name, so and so suggested. They went to counseling with this person.”

THERAPIST: I asked Silas.

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:09:25)

CLIENT: I did. And he had actually talked about some folks? No. I’ve heard of them before because I bought their damn book like twelve or fifteen years ago and sat on the therapist, Dan Lewis. It was the name that he gave.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But they’re in Detroit and I remember that, you know, when Mary and I... You know, I suggested that we kind of work through that book. It’s like, you know...

THERAPIST: Alright. [00:10:05]

CLIENT: You know, any of those books. It’s like Getting the Love You Want... Yeah. Blah, blah, blah. It’s like...

THERAPIST: Let me see if I can get some names for you.

CLIENT: Well, there’s one person... I went ahead and made an appointment. It’s somebody local down, you know, in the (inaudible) and it’s just like... You know, but part of me is really rooted right now in this place.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And it’s like... I will go. And it’s on the fifteenth so it’s like next Tuesday or something. I will go but, you know, the place where I’m at is still one of, “Hey. You know what? I’m feeling no pressure here at all to move anything along in any direction. And I still am in the same place I was three weeks ago.”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I’ve got nothing I’m bringing to this. So I’m like, you know, “You may be in crisis mode but...”

THERAPIST: But you’re not.

CLIENT: “...I’m not.”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I’ve got nothing that I’m bringing. “So, you know, your option is to take me where I’m at right now or...” [00:11:03]

THERAPIST: Which is where, Seamus? Where would you kind of describe where you are over this whole idea of marriage and...

CLIENT: You know, today and, again, it’s just taken me such a long, maybe not all that long time but just, you know... I know that there is still a knot here in my stomach. And I think that knot in my stomach is just being able to say the words, you know, “I’m done.”

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know? Because it’s like... (PAUSE) I can’t find anything else. There’s nothing when I go looking. I can’t find anything else.

THERAPIST: What would that be like for you when you finally say those words?

CLIENT: Well, I think that it’s probably going to be like the feeling of relief that I’ve gotten from saying all the other words. It’s just that I know that there’s still that little knot down here.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And it’s kind of like, “Okay, it’s not going to go away until it comes out.” You know? I get that. You know, so I really have just been sitting and I still want to sit. [00:12:09]

THERAPIST: Yeah, sure.

CLIENT: Because it’s like, “Well, you really haven’t given this very much time.” And it’s like, “Are you really putting your best effort into deciding whether or not this is how you’re feeling?” And I’m thinking... I think yes. But I’m like, “You ought to know what you know.”

THERAPIST: Sure. And I think that you’ve given it... This is a process of years. The end part of the process happened quickly. But this is a process that you’ve been working through for years within.

CLIENT: Unfortunately, yeah, not working on it with her.

THERAPIST: No. But there was no safety for you to do that and you weren’t ready to do that.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: But this... So when you say, “Have you given it enough time,” well, you will be the determiner of that. But, you know, it doesn’t take much time if you know and you haven’t varied in that statement for the last three weeks. [00:13:05]

I think you need to give it whatever time that you need but that is your... If that is your truth, that’s what it’s going to be whether it’s not or a year from now.

CLIENT: Yeah. And so part of me feels like, you know, stepping back into this place, you know, stepping off the path and stepping over into this place, it’s like, “Hey, you know, I’m here. And, you know, other people can come and check me out if they want to and they can decide whether or not I’m Don Quixote tilting at windmills or if I’m just a guy who has made a decision in a different direction. I’ll leave it up to you to decide. But I’m feeling like, you know, moving upstairs, I can sleep at night.”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s like I’ve got my own safe space, you know, kind of... And I’m just like, you know, I recognize that, you know, coming home, it’s like, if her car is there, it’s like, “Damn.”

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:14:11]

CLIENT: It’s not like, “Hey, I’m happy to see you’re home.”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s like...

THERAPIST: Because... “Damn” because what? What does that mean you have to do?

CLIENT: Well, it means that, you know, that I’ve got to share the house with the uncomfortable feelings and I don’t really want to engage in any discussion. You know, I want to get some work done and I don’t want to deal with this shit right now. That is where I’m at. So, you know, when she’s not there, the garage is empty, I’m like, “Okay.”

THERAPIST: Sure. Because you can breathe.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. You know, the transformation even physically in you, your expressions when you talk about it, has been pretty phenomenal. I mean, I almost wish I had a camera so you could see this week where you are. Do you feel what that is? [00:15:05]

CLIENT: I think I can.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I think I can. You know, I know that there was a lot of, not necessarily in this session, but I know I was really identifying with like, “Who the hell thought it would be a good idea to put this really depressing statue of Paul Bunyan on the way in and out of this place.”

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) Oh, the old Paul Bunyan. We’ve had jokes about that statue for years.

CLIENT: I’m like nothing says “Academic Success” like that statue.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: I’m just like... I know that I’ve felt like that.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s just like... You know, so heavy and guarded and protected. Now I’m like, yeah, you know what? I’ve got this image. I don’t know if I shared this last week or not but I shared this realization that the wounded child that I’m dealing with is not a five year old child. It’s a two year old child. [00:15:59]

THERAPIST: Tell me about being two.

CLIENT: It’s when I had my surgery.

THERAPIST: Tell me.

CLIENT: And I started to have some, you know, some of those memories came back. Not that I had... I remembered them as a kid and I... They’ve been a part of my life so it’s not like this, you know, buried memory that came back. But I recognize that I had this... And, you know, what I don’t have is a lot of information like why did they have to wait until I was two to do the surgery, kind of little corrective surgery that needed to be done. I am not sure about all of that. But I do remember, you know, being left alone overnight in the hospital. And I do remember being at my grandmother’s house after the surgery was over. Now I don’t know how long. But knowing that it was still new because I know that my mom had to put on some kind of salve or medication or something. And I was trying to tell my grandmother about it and my mom was scolding me for talking about it. “We don’t talk about this.” [00:17:11]

THERAPIST: We don’t talk about your penis? We don’t talk about... Ever.

CLIENT: Sex. I mean, that’s just my family. We don’t talk about this ever. So it’s like, that’s...

THERAPIST: That’s...

CLIENT: That’s going back to being two. That’s not five. This is going back to being two. So all the sudden that image of this five year old that I have been parenting or taking care of, suddenly became two years old and it’s like, “Oh, now this is a completely different feel.”

THERAPIST: Sure. I mean, in some ways, I mean, it breaks my heart to have a two year old... And I can’t imagine being two trying to describe what hurts you which is a very normal thing and two year olds have some words but not all words. And you learning at two, after being on earth two years, what we don’t talk about, being shamed at two. [00:18:01]

CLIENT: Shamed and two and, “We don’t talk about it,” and not knowing... And then not having language for it and not knowing really much about that at all until I was like sixteen or seventeen years old and I’m just like...

THERAPIST: So you’re left out in the cold to make sense of it on your own. But at two... I mean, how devastating is that?

CLIENT: Well, that’s what I’m thinking. It’s like, “Wow, this is even deeper than in a lot of ways...”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So it’s like, now I have this image of this mother lioness. It’s like I’ve got this two year old and I know that the two year old represents, you know my vulnerability.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And it’s like, yeah, “You know what? This vulnerability only gets shared with a handful of really trusted select people and we ain’t going to get hurt again.”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s like...

THERAPIST: Well, you’re protecting the two year old that didn’t get protected.

CLIENT: Yeah. And it’s like... So now, when I think about that marriage relationship, it’s like, “Oh yeah, we’re not going there again.” [00:18:59]

THERAPIST: Well, not only that but, I mean, unfortunately sometimes your vulnerability and your partner’s vulnerability can help to heal one another. But yours and Mary’s vulnerabilities were sort of similar and they just rubbed each other the wrong way. She couldn’t... Of course, you’re... I’m thinking that you’re that guy that wants sex while, you know, that’s a compliment. I mean, when the man stops wanting sex from his wife, that’s a problem. That’s the problem. The problem is not wanting sex with your wife. Right? And to be painted... So to take this image of you at two being told, “Something’s wrong with you. We don’t talk about that,” at two, you know, which is what enabled you to stay so silent about it in your marriage for so long... Because, again, “We don’t talk about this. Something’s wrong with you that you want this,” which is ridiculous. Right? So that’s where we are.

CLIENT: Yeah. And then that’s... Yeah. Right. Exactly. That’s the, for better... You know, not that I really understand these words but that’s my schema. [00:20:03]

THERAPIST: It’s heartbreaking.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And such a lie. I mean, such a lie.

CLIENT: (SIGH)

THERAPIST: You know, I mean, if you think about it, I mean, it’s just so wrong. All of these... You know, the ideas that, you know... So, for example, you know, my two year old... I... She calls her vagina and vagina because I want her to know the proper words. And not to get too graphic, but I’m changing her, she’s like, “Touch.” And I’m like, “Fine.” You know, for her, an elbow and a vagina are the same thing. They don’t know the difference. Right? But so at two, she knows touching whatever, her toes, her ear, her vagina is perfectly okay and yet, at two, you learned, “Don’t touch it. Don’t talk about it. Don’t mention it and be ashamed about it.”

CLIENT: Yeah. And don’t talk to Grandma about it. So it must be bad.

THERAPIST: It must be really bad.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: How do you think that...

CLIENT: And “You’re bad.” That’s, you know...

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:20:53]

(CROSSTALK)

THERAPIST: Because you felt all that shame and you remember it at two.

CLIENT: At two.

THERAPIST: Which just, like I said, it breaks my heart. What do you do with that?

CLIENT: So, yeah, you... You know, you know that you’re bad. You know, you have all these messages. You think that deep down underneath all of this, you’re unlovable and that once people get to know who you are, they’ll never be able to love you. Right? So...

THERAPIST: Because you have this thing.

CLIENT: Yeah. This thing and I’m a bad person.

THERAPIST: And it’s all about sex. And sex is bad. And then you have your wife saying...

CLIENT: Oh yeah. I mean, we grew up in the Christian family. Like sex is bad. Right?

THERAPIST: Right. And then you marry someone who was abused by, hurt by sex. Right? You know? It does make me wonder how you guys were able to have what I’m assuming and, correct me if I’m wrong, a health sex life enough to produce three children early on. [00:22:01]

CLIENT: Yeah. But it’s like once that job was done, that’s when I think that job was done, that’s when I think everything started to fall apart.

THERAPIST: Sure. Because in the Christia faith, you have sex to produce children?

CLIENT: No. It wasn’t that. It wasn’t that. I think that... You know, whether it was... I don’t think it was conscious. I think it was subconscious that it was like, “I need to submit to do this in order to get children.”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know, she got as a message about sex from growing up as a kid, it’s like, “It’s just your duty. You just have to do it. You won’t... You don’t have to enjoy it. You know, it’s not an enjoyable thing. You just do it.”

THERAPIST: And what about you?

CLIENT: I never got any messages about sex.

THERAPIST: Well, you did, all negative. But...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, was sex enjoyable with you with Mary early on?

CLIENT: I’m sure that it was.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It’s difficult to remember that but I’m going to say that it must have been. You know? I’m sure that it was.

THERAPIST: And before Mary, sex with other women? [00:23:05]

CLIENT: June… We’ve had that story?

THERAPIST: The fiance. Yes.

CLIENT: So, you know, but... You know, it was the kind of thing that sex was not something that you just... You know, that was not the culture I grew up in.

THERAPIST: You don’t just do it.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, only if you’re going to get married. So I’m having a feeling that probably being whatever, 19, 20 years old, it was like, you know, hormones are raging and so it’s like, “I must be engaged at least, you know, if I’m going to...”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Who knows what all that stuff was.

THERAPIST: What would it be like for you then? You know, let’s just clear away any moral or ethical boundaries. Right? Just for the purposes of fantasy. What do you think it would be like for you to have sex with another woman? Right? I’m not recommending this. But just kind of... I think that your fantasy life has even taken a huge hit.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:24:07]

THERAPIST: What... Because it was never okay to even fantasize. What would it be like for you to have sex with a sort of friendly, willing, attractive woman outside of a relationship? Can you imagine that?

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. What might that be like? What might you fantasize that that be like?

CLIENT: Well, it’s interesting that you’re bringing this up because it’s another issue that I feel like I kind of need to talk about today. But, you know... (SIGH) (PAUSE) I’m not necessarily sure how, you know, graphic I want to get about that. But I know, you know, it’s like I think that my fantasy life is pretty alive and well.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It’s not like, you know... It’s... I don’t... You know, I don’t necessarily want to compare it to other peoples’ fantasy life...

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:24:57]

CLIENT: ...because I’m sure that... But I would say that it’s pretty alive and well.

THERAPIST: And do you feel okay about that?

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. Because you know that’s a pretty healthy thing.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. And I’m okay with that. I have been told for a long period of time that it’s not.

CLIENT: What about pornography?

CLIENT: I know that earlier on, you know, there were some... Like that was my introduction to sex when I was a kid.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So it’s kind of like... You know, that was kind of like, you know, magazines that we, you know, we somehow found as a kid and that became like, you know, “Man this is like a gold mine.” You know? So...

THERAPIST: What about now?

CLIENT: No. You know, I think earlier, and I don’t know how many years ago, that I may have kind of gone back to that only because it’s like, you know, going back to old habits or patterns or it’s like... I don’t know what to do with this. I think that I’ve always felt like that only makes the problem worse. [00:26:03]

THERAPIST: Tell me more about making the problem worse.

CLIENT: That it only accentuates the emptiness even that much more.

THERAPIST: But would it now in the current state of things?

CLIENT: (PAUSE) I’m kind of thinking yes just because it’s like I’m not interested in...

THERAPIST: Are you sure?

CLIENT: I’m not interested in what I can’t have.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I’m more interested in manifesting what I really want.

THERAPIST: Okay. Which is?

CLIENT: Intimacy.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I want, you know, a relationship that... And I think it’s... And I think it’s completely possible.

THERAPIST: Oh it’s definitely possible.

CLIENT: And it’s like... (PAUSE) So I’ll just jump into saying that it’s like, you know, recognizing that this explosion of feelings which came out as a lot of anger and rage initially and it’s like kind of this uncontrollable ness... It’s like I don’t know what to do with all of this. And it’s just like I’m just feeling all this. [00:27:11]

You know? It’s kind of like, “Well, now I’m like, well shit. I have some potential friendships here that I’m like...”

THERAPIST: You really want to love again.

CLIENT: And it’s like I’ve had, you know, more intimate conversations with a handful of people in the last month that I’ve had in the last twenty years of marriage. And I’m like... It’s not... Not only is it possible. It’s possible with a number of different people. It’s just..

THERAPIST: Sure. The emotional intimacy piece.

CLIENT: And, you know, going down the road of fantasy, it’s like... And it’s like being in this place of being more comfortable with myself and more confident with myself, it’s like... You know, yeah. You know, it’s all possible. [00:28:07]

And it’s like...

THERAPIST: And have a lot more hope than you had.

CLIENT: And I know that it’s like I’m looking at, you know, 27 years of this against a handful, a handful of emotional conversations or intimate conversations... Okay, you know, I don’t want to get too critical or editorialize these people but it’s like emotional level, a gut level feeling. It’s like... This isn’t even... There isn’t even...

THERAPIST: Night and day there.

CLIENT: There’s not even a comparison here.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, the only reason I would stay in this right now is some kind of convoluted sense of obligation.

THERAPIST: Which is waning by the minute.

CLIENT: You know, I got the question on the way home. It’s like...

THERAPIST: What was the question? [00:28:57]

CLIENT: “So where do you stand on this marriage vows? You know, the marriage commitment?” And I was just like... I was pretty, you know, pretty much in the safe space. And I’m like, “Yeah. You know what? I really don’t have an answer for you right now. I’ll get back to you when I feel like I can give you an answer.” And I’m like... So I’ve been sitting with that and it’s like... (PAUSE) Whatever it might have been 27 years ago...

THERAPIST: But, you know, it’s interesting because you’re not... It’s a fair question because when you first came in here a couple of months ago, the first thing that came out of your mouth was, “I took vows. I am obligated.” Right? So but that for you has changed.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right? Yes, you took vows.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, sure. But a lot has changed for you and the kind of no longer willing to be miserable and the hope of something else for you, whatever that something else may look like... You know, and the no longer sort of willing to be dishonest about what your needs are and finally recognizing that your needs are normal and healthy needs. [00:30:17]

Right? Like these are, you know, normal healthy needs that married couples expect from one another.

CLIENT: You know? And it’s like I’m looking at whatever, you know, who knows... Maybe we get one more day on the planet. But, you know, if I’m looking at statistics, you know, I... You know, there’s a statistical chance that I get a few more years on the planet. And I’m like, “I don’t want to spend those in that or anything that looks remotely close to that.” And I would rather spend my time building a friendship and a deep emotional friendship and a deep emotional friendship that can include physical intimacy.

THERAPIST: Absolutely. [00:31:09]

CLIENT: Why wouldn’t you want that?

THERAPIST: Well, right. Because initially that’s what you wanted in your marriage. How are you dealing with the emotional component to Mary’s hurt and anger? Last week that was a struggle for you.

CLIENT: Somehow, being in my safe place, it’s like, “You know what? Your crisis is not my crisis.” You know? And I’ve been getting more texts than ever and I’ve gotten, you know, a handful of calls from some of the church choir members that are checking in on me. It’s like...

THERAPIST: Checking in on you because they know?

CLIENT: Yeah. They know something’s up.

THERAPIST: And what is the nature of the...

CLIENT: Because I’m not there. Something’s up.

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) Did you quit the choir?

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, probably not well. [00:32:01]

THERAPIST: I’m sorry. I have to laugh because when we talked about quitting the choir before, you’re like, “No way.” And you quit. You didn’t even... “You quit?” “Oh yeah. I’m done with that.” You know?

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: That’s pretty amazing. Damn Seamus.

CLIENT: No. It’s like if I’m going to be in my truth, the only...

THERAPIST: You just beat the hell out of that truth. “Oh no. I’ve been done with that for years.” (LAUGHTER) So how did you quit and when did you quit?

CLIENT: I just didn’t go back. Well, I mean, it was... It was the marriage counseling thing. It was... I think I had a legitimate excuse the one week. But it was like coming back down and just being yelled at for an hour on the way back down. And it was like that’s church choir night. And it’s like, “Yeah. I’m pretty much not going there.” (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I went home and it’s like, “Yeah. I’m pretty much done. I’m pretty much done.”

THERAPIST: Yeah. You’re kind of pretty much are. [00:33:03]

CLIENT: Yeah. And it’s like... But I knew that I was going to be done because I had warned...

THERAPIST: Sure. But do you understand that you’ve changed a lifetime pattern here in a matter of a month?

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: You know, and I mean, and it’s... And I recognize the difficult painful part of that. But I’m also very proud of you and you should be proud of yourself because you’re just not going the disingenuous thing anymore. You’re just not going it. You know, the choir was never for you. You were willing to do it.

CLIENT: At some point it was but it’s not anymore.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It hasn’t been for a long time.

THERAPIST: You know, it’s like going to the dinner, the faculty dinner with your wife. It’s a facade.

CLIENT: I should have never done it.

THERAPIST: Well, I get why you did it and now that’s why you’re not willing to... Because it’s not the truth.

CLIENT: Yeah. And the message I got on that was, “Well, you just go and do those things because you’re my husband.” [00:33:59]

THERAPIST: Well, but you did.

CLIENT: And I did.

THERAPIST: Right. You did for 27 years. But now it’s just like nails on a chalkboard. It’s... You know, you do just do those things as part of a marriage.

CLIENT: Right, right, right.

THERAPIST: But what we’re looking at is not really a marriage for you anymore.

CLIENT: Nope.

THERAPIST: Right. So the rules... Those same rules for what you just do don’t apply in the same way.

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s kind of like... Yeah. I stepped off the stage. You know, I know it. I get it. It’s like, “You know what? The pretense is done here. I’m done. You know, you can go on with this game if you want to. I’m just not in the play anymore. I’m over here. I’m sitting here.” You know, and it’s like, “Make all the demands you want. But I’m right here. And that’s it.” You know, and I’m like... (SIGH) So I know that that’s got to sounds really... I know that there’s a big part of me that just like, “Wow. You know...”

THERAPIST: Wow what?

CLIENT: I... (PAUSE) I know that that probably looks really, really awful on the outside to some people. You know? And I know that it’s got to be completely and utterly confusing to Mary who doesn’t get it at all. [00:35:17]

You know, it’s just like, you know, something seriously is wrong and I get that. It’s like, “Yeah, you just changed everything. You just turned it all on its head in the matter of about a month and it’s like...” (PAUSE) So? But, you know, to kind of get back to that question of how’s that making you feel...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, I was all knotted up with anxiety last week about that issue. I’m like not right now.

THERAPIST: What made the shift for you?

CLIENT: I think a lot of it has to do with just stepping out of it, just recognizing, “Hey, I don’t have to feel pressured to feel like I’ve got to make a decision right now.”

THERAPIST: Absolutely not. [00:36:01]

CLIENT: And so I’m just stepping out. I’m just stepping out of the game. You know, it’s like, “Whatever.” So we’ll see where it goes. You know? (PAUSE) So there was, you know... In my word, in my interpretation, you know... (PAUSE) You know, we were driving down to Taylorville. She’s like, “Well...” I give her the spiel about being really guarded and it’s like, “Yeah, there’s not a hell of a lot of trust here. So I’m not expecting...” And I said, “You know, I feel like anything that is going to touch the kind of emotional hot button issues I think ought to be done in the presence of a counselor as opposed to us like going there without, you know, some help.” [00:36:53]

So, you know, I was like... I said my peace and said, you know, where I was going to go and what I was going to do and not do. And then she said, “Well, okay. But, you know, I just need you to know that, you know, the conversation or our time in counseling up there got me thinking that, you know, that maybe I had been wrong, you know, and I really, you know, feel like maybe I need to deal with this issue.” And I’m like, you know, just hiding... Not hiding but just being in this place of being really guarded and I’m like, “Okay. Whatever. Good luck with that.” So I know that there’s just not... I just now that there’s still a lot of hurt there that I just still can’t even be in that place of compassion.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: If she’s being serious about that, then it’s like, you know, “Could you show a little compassion? Could you...” But I’m like, “Whatever.”

THERAPIST: Well, you don’t trust, you know... I mean, it sounds like again a desperate measure to hold onto things. It might be different if she actually does seek her own counseling and you see that.

CLIENT: Yeah. And, you know, she send me a text that was like, “I left a message at a therapist’s office.” So it’s like, “Whatever. Whatever.” [00:38:09]

It’s like... (LAUGHTER) You know... I guess, you know, that people can drastically change obviously. You know, I’ve drastically... Maybe. I don’t know if I’ve drastically changed or if I’m just...

THERAPIST: I just think that we brought out what was in...

CLIENT: I finally just got... I just found a voice.

THERAPIST: Your own voice.

CLIENT: Yeah. And when I was finally able to speak, you know, the word that came out was, “Enough.”

THERAPIST: And it was pretty clear.

CLIENT: You know, and... So, for her, it’s like, “Well, great. If you can go get some counseling and you can change all that up... Again, where I’m at today is even if you changed it all up, I’ve got lots of years of shit that I’m sitting here with. It’s like I can forgive but, you know, the way we move forward in relationships with forgiveness, it’s like... You kind of remember, you know, what the hell happened so that you don’t get hurt again.” [00:39:15]

It’s not that you can’t forgive and move on but like we can move being friends or we can move on being, you know, parents, whatnot and we’ve figured out how to do that pretty well over the years. But it’s like we never really figured out how to be intimate marriage partners. And I’d like to figure that out with somebody that has the capacity to do that. You know?

THERAPIST: What’s that like to say?

CLIENT: For me?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (SIGH) It’s great to be able to say it. I’m not sure I’m yet at a place to be able to say it to her.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I feel like, again, it’s probably what this is right here. It’s like... [00:40:07]

And I suppose that I’m also giving myself time. It’s like, “Okay, when the time is right, you’ll know it. It’ll be right.” And it doesn’t have to happen tomorrow. It’s like, “Give yourself a break, dude.”

THERAPIST: It doesn’t have to happen tomorrow, six months from now, or a year from now. It’s going to happen when you’re ready for it to happen.

CLIENT: Yeah. But, I mean... (SIGH) I had a great little conversation with my little sister last night.

THERAPIST: Because there are four boys and one girl. Okay.

CLIENT: She’s eleven years younger than I am and she just went through a divorce. She was married for 20 years to a guy who was kind of a jerk. And I was really sad when they married.

THERAPIST: You were sad when they got married because you knew he was a jerk?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Can you tell me a little bit about that? That really touches you.

CLIENT: Well, I had really been working on trying to build her self-esteem to get her go to college and get her out of, help her climb over the walls of the little town and get out of that. [00:41:15]

But she ended up, you know, chasing after somebody who would bolster up her self-esteem, looking desperately for somebody to bolster her self-esteem. She found this guy who ended up being the jerk I thought he was going to be. So finally, she found her voice and had enough and... Yeah. They ended up getting a divorce. But, at any rate, she had known. I had gone on and had this conversation with my folks and they live across the backyard from each other. So I knew that my mom and she are really close. I knew they would talk. I didn’t have a chance to talk to my little sister. So last night just happened to be the night. We talked on the phone for about a half an hour. Yeah. It was amazing that, you know, she was just in the same place and just confirming a lot of those things I was feeling for myself. [00:42:05]

It’s like, “Yeah. What the hell? Step out. You know? You take it at your own speed. You know?” So it’s like, “You know, you found your voice and...” Maybe in a little bit different language. You know, we’re not... She’s not saying, you know, an authentic life. She’s like, “You’ve just got to be real.” (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: But, you know, what’s interesting is that you’re not only getting pretty consistent outside validation but your siblings, from everything you’ve said, are going through, have been through something similar, right, with self-esteem issues in their own lives, kind of getting to this place where you’re with somebody for 20 plus years and then looking at it again. I mean, that’s pretty, if you look at it from a family systems perspective, that’s pretty significant stuff. [00:42:55]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, you know, so it’s not just you who got the message. You were just the first one because you were the first born. But it went all the way through the family line.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. There’s plenty of those issues there. We’d make an interesting study.

THERAPIST: But how painful for you all because it didn’t bring the siblings closer together.

CLIENT: Interestingly enough though, I got a text yesterday from my brother. Now my three younger brothers have always been kind of tight and I’ve kind of been the odd man out. But I got invited to the brothers weekend.

THERAPIST: The brothers weekend. Do tell.

CLIENT: It’s just that the three of them have, you know, gotten together and had a weekend or an evening and just kind of hung out.

THERAPIST: And are they all down state?

CLIENT: Well, they’re over by Dunlap.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And I’ve never gotten an official invite to come out to that.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But I think that probably through my talking with my brother Bill and recognizing, shit, we’re all in the same boat together... I’m guess that’s why I got the invite. [00:44:07]

THERAPIST: How do you feel about the invite?

CLIENT: I’m thinking I’ve got to go.

THERAPIST: No. Do you want to go?

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh good.

CLIENT: It’s like I want to check in on these guys. It’s like we’ve got war stories to tell.

THERAPIST: You do.

CLIENT: And it’s like... You know, my brother Bill’s been doing marriage counseling for about a year and, you know, it kind of looks like they might salvage a relationship out of that. I don’t know about my other two brothers. But I know where I’m feeling I’m at right now. So it’s like...

THERAPIST: When is the brother’s weaned?

CLIENT: This coming Saturday.

THERAPIST: Okay. So you’re going to go down to Dunlap?

CLIENT: I think so. I think that’s when it is. I’ll have to check.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But...

THERAPIST: And do you guys go camping? What do you do?

CLIENT: No, I’m sure we’ll just hang at my brother’s house. He’s got a bar downstairs. I’ll sure we’ll just drink too much and, for me, that’s like one beer. [00:44:59]

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) Enjoy yourself.

CLIENT: I’m looking forward to that.

THERAPIST: That’s great.

CLIENT: Getting out of... And it’s like I recognize that like her work schedule, her church schedule, her life has been on the weekends which has kept me, you know... Because I’ve been the good puppy that’s come along to church all the time. It’s like I’ve denied myself relationships with my family.

THERAPIST: Why do you think you chose to quote, unquote “be the good puppy and go along?”

CLIENT: (SIGH) I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Because she didn’t keep you from them. You chose to go along with what was said.

CLIENT: Yeah. But you know what? There was a pretty strong message.

THERAPIST: Sure there was. Yes there absolutely was. But what made you choose to go along?

CLIENT: Well, because I wasn’t going to make her unhappy.

THERAPIST: Because?

CLIENT: Not being there was going to make her...

THERAPIST: No. What is the consequence to making Mary unhappy?

CLIENT: Oh, that, you know, I don’t exist. You know, that’s not exactly the right word but it’s like, “You won’t like me anymore. You know, I need you to like me.” [00:46:11]

And it’s like... I think it like kind of became this surrogate in a way. It’s like if the physical relationship’s going to hell, the only thing I’ve got left for you to like me is to do this church thing.

THERAPIST: But even that was empty for you.

CLIENT: Eventually...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Because even the liking was not enough because that’s the kiss at the door, goodbye, a pat on the head. I mean, the liking is not enough.

CLIENT: So... (SIGH) Yeah. There’s all of that. You know, there’s... So, yeah, any opportunity I can get... And eventually, it became like, “I’m just not going to church anymore. The choir’s not happening. I’m just not going to church.” [00:47:03]

You know, so slowly, you know, I’ve been eroding that over time. But, yeah, no. It’s...

THERAPIST: What was it like to attend church when you don’t practice Christianity anymore?

CLIENT: It was just mostly sitting there are trying to be in that place of mindfulness. It’s like, “Okay. I’ll just turn this into a mindfulness activity.” And it’s like, “Okay. Health insurance. Let me just focus on the fact that I’m getting my health insurance through, you know, my wife working at this place.” It’s just like... (SIGH)

THERAPIST: But you did that week after week. Yeah.

CLIENT: And sometimes multiple times a week.

THERAPIST: Yeah. For something that is not within your belief system anymore.

CLIENT: No. And, you know, not that I’m not a spiritual person.

THERAPIST: I think you’re a very spiritual person.

CLIENT: But...

THERAPIST: Just not a practice of Christianity. [00:48:03]

CLIENT: Right. So yeah...

THERAPIST: You know, what I find... Something not now but eventually we have to look at. The contract was so set for so long. And there are parts that you agreed to that, you know, I think in marriage we all agree to parts of the contract we don’t like. But that you don’t like and sort of even went against your own belief system about things. Right? Which is why you have all of the emotion around this now where you’re like, “I’m done,” because for years... But both of you agreed to that contract. Right? For better or for worse you sort of agreed to the contract.

CLIENT: I mean, that was kind of an implied contract because we didn’t go by the standard wording. We actually wrote our own vows and I’m like, “I don’t even remember what those things were anymore.” And it’s like... So it’s kind of like to throw around the standard language of the marriage contract, it’s like, we didn’t abide by the standard language when we got married. So what is it that, you know... [00:49:09]

It’s like... Well, it’s just kind of this... You know, this implied, understood that marriage is forever and you’re stuck in it, you’re stuck with me forever. That’s just the implied.

THERAPIST: You know, I have a good friend of mine who is probably in his later fifties, a work colleague and a friend who used to be a Catholic priest.

CLIENT: Uh oh.

THERAPIST: Left that, became a Buddhist, married a Jewish woman.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And I asked him, you know, “What happened there?” And he just said, “It just wasn’t me anymore. I just...” Of course, he talked a little bit about hypocrisy and those things. And he said, “I just couldn’t do it anymore. I felt like a fraud. So I left, you know, and...” He’s got this really long ponytail and, you know, he’s like, “I couldn’t do it anymore.” [00:50:03]

It sort of strikes a bit similar here that you just can’t do it anymore. When I say the contract, I sort of thing most married couples have an implied contract that you come to about the agreement that’s most often not discussed about things, the way things are going to be, the way we’re going to do things. And sometimes you go along to get along because it makes life easier. But you did it in ways that compromised yourself so deeply that now you just can’t abide by it anymore, right, even attending on a regular multi week basis church services for a faith that you no longer subscribe to.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I would say when I subscribed early on, I was on board.

THERAPIST: Right. Sure. But there was no conversation about recognizing, you know... I mean, there were some jabs here and there. But your belief system had changed.

CLIENT: Well, I mean, there were attempts at that and attempts to try. But it’s like, “Nope.” We’re not going there. We don’t discuss that. [00:51:11]

THERAPIST: Because you’ve been told multiple times in your life about what we don’t discuss. “But as long as you attend church, I’m going to ignore this Taoism thing and you go... As long as we’re married and that’s what it looks like...” Right? I mean, the themes are pretty incredible.

CLIENT: It’s all about the facade of it all.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know, it’s about maintaining this grand illusion.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And it’s like, “Yeah. I’m done with that.”

THERAPIST: Right. But the message is that you’ve been told for your whole life about what we don’t talk about don’t apply anymore.”

CLIENT: No really. And... (PAUSE) Yeah. So there’s a part of me that’s like, “Yeah. Well, you know what? I understand my complicity in all of this and I know that the way that I reacted to things... But that doesn’t change the fact that I know what I know and I want what I want and I’m done with what I’m done with.” [00:52:09]

THERAPIST: When you look back on this, do you think you will blame yourself or... “Why did I stay so long” “Why did I do these things?’

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Good. Tell me why not. I like that.

CLIENT: No. I feel like, you know, as much as I may not necessarily feel this now, I think cognitively I describe too... You know, it’s like you did the best you could do with what you had at the time and things... You know, you were ready when you were ready. It’s everything that I would tell everybody else. So I think that it’s starting to sink in. I think I can be there with it and not beat myself up.

THERAPIST: I see that. And that wouldn’t have been what you would have said month ago. That’s pretty incredible.

CLIENT: So it’s like... You know? I’ve got three great kids. I’ve got three really good kids out of this. There’s plenty of other positives that I can mine through this ash heap and find. I may not be able to see them today. You know? But all of that brought me to where I’m at today. And it’s like I’m kind of liking where I’m at today. [00:53:17]

THERAPIST: I see that.

CLIENT: Even though it may suck a lot.

THERAPIST: Right. But you wear it well, you know, and considering how difficult it was for you to sort of put on and keep on in the first place. Don’t take it off again.

CLIENT: No. I ain’t taking it off. So, I know that we have almost no time left. But it’s like one of the other issues that I know that I’m kind of dealing with is the, this growing sense of like, “Well, shit. There are other relationships that are possible.” And it’s like now I’m feeling like am I in the same place of not knowing how to deal with anger and rage, you know... I don’t know. Appropriately? I don’t even know if those are the right words, you know, because I feel like in some ways, being able to deal with these heightened emotions is kind of like new territory for me. [00:54:15]

THERAPIST: So let me make sure I understand. You’re obviously forming deeper more significant relationships with classmates talking about personal things, friendships are growing, you know, and maybe even looking to the future and romantic relationships. You’re thinking, “Can I handle all of these emotions that have come up? Can I handle my own anger, my own pain?”

CLIENT: Can I handle... I mean, it’s like... I recognize it as like I’m trying to stay in some place of authenticity. It’s like I’m holding anger over here, I’m holding this relationship shit that I don’t know what to do with. I’m holding... Wow, really close friendship. It’s like, “Well, the authentic part of me doesn’t want to let that go.” It’s like, “Well, why the hell should I?” [00:55:01]

THERAPIST: Are you having romantic feelings for one of these individual friendships?

CLIENT: Yeah. I’m afraid so.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Okay. That’s what it’s sounding like. And so your mind is kind of turning towards...

CLIENT: So it’s like... Well, are you even trying in this other relationship anymore? Were you even trying in the first place?

THERAPIST: Well, for 27 years.

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s just like... So there’s that tension or that conflict now that I’m like, “Oh fuck.” (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Well, you know, it’s a different place to be. You know, it’s kind of a bit more excited place to be in some ways. I was going to ask about that. I was like, “Oh, it’s sounding like this to me.” You know, that, in some ways, will work itself out. Right? So you’re in the tough place of kind of looking at what you think you might want over here and still kind of embroiled in this relationship over here. [00:56:01]

CLIENT: Which is why I’m like in the middle now.

THERAPIST: Yeah. But some of this will... You know, some of this is going to take time to resolve itself. Are you afraid, you know, concerned that you might kind of act on this sexually or...

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: No. Just become more attached emotionally?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Okay.

CLIENT: You know, it’s like I know that I’ve been the guy in the desert for so long that it’s like somebody offers me a drink of water...

THERAPIST: Sure. Or a pitcher.

CLIENT: I’m like... You know, it’s like I can sit here and have an intimate conversation.

THERAPIST: And be affirmed as well. Yeah. Well, you know, can we sort of look at that next week?

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I’m sure that it will still be there next week.

THERAPIST: I think so. You know...

CLIENT: But I’m just... In the meantime, it’s just like recognizing that that’s part of what I’m sitting in too.

THERAPIST: Yes. And in the meantime kind of recognizing that this is sort of healthy part of you has kind of been unleashed. And now you’re kind of hungry to go looking for the intimacy that you have been denied for so long. And so, you know, all of these are really healthy things. They just are. Unfortunately, you’re going to sit in that too. But it’s exciting in some ways to kind of see that there’s another world that could be opened to you. [00:57:53]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that you refuse to go back to the box of not being in touch with your emotions.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: So whatever they are...

CLIENT: I have been sitting with that too. It’s like, “Well, dude. You’re not going back there either. So the bottom line is if you’re going to shut off that emotion, then you’re just going back into the same patterns you were dealing with before.” So I know that I don’t want to go there either. So...

THERAPIST: Okay. So we’ll look at that. I want to hear more about that. (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: Oh brother.

THERAPIST: Are you involved with all the (inaudible) stuff up there?

CLIENT: Well, not really outside of just being impacted by it.

THERAPIST: Yes. Where are you with the whole doctorate thing?

CLIENT: I’m going to turn in the application.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I’ll go run screaming off the cliff and see what happens.

THERAPIST: I think that’s a great idea. (LAUGHTER) Since you’re jumping off so many cliffs these days.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: See you later. Bye bye.

END TRANSCRIPT