TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Can you come at, do 12:30 until like...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: No problem.

THERAPIST: Then... Because it looks like that’s right in between one interview and then the other one if that’ll work for you.

CLIENT: Okay. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Let me make sure I write that in here. (PAUSE) Yes. Twelve thirty to like 1:20. Thank you for your flexibility. How are you?

CLIENT: I’m tired.

THERAPIST: I betcha.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) Well that’s honest. I can...

CLIENT: I’m tired.

THERAPIST: What’s happening?

CLIENT: Let’s see.

THERAPIST: Was today counseling day?

CLIENT: It wasn’t.

THERAPIST: Oh okay.

CLIENT: Let’s see. Holy crap. Next week is the 29th already.

THERAPIST: It is. Isn’t that crazy?

CLIENT: Yeah. Crazy the amount of stuff I’ve got to get done between then...

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: You know? And it would be great... Let’s see. Hang on a second. (PAUSE) I want to make sure I get this in the right spot. Twelve thirty...

THERAPIST: Twelve thirty to like 1:20. [00:01:01]

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) Yeah. Just... You know, I’m really tired of... I’m tired of doing this.

THERAPIST: Yeah. What’s happening?

CLIENT: You know... (SIGH) The Easter weekend was, you know...

THERAPIST: Oh yes. What happened this weekend?

CLIENT: Well, I wasn’t part of any of the Easter stuff, you know, musically. And, you know, that’s like... (PAUSE) This is like huge.

THERAPIST: Sacrilegious. This is the first time you’ve... Yeah. How did that go?

CLIENT: Well, you know... (SIGH) (PAUSE) You know, the bottom line through... You know, it’s we’re on the back side of it. But it’s just like (PAUSE) you know, this surreal place of being like in my life. But everything’s upside down. [00:02:03]

I think I’ve probably said that before but it just feels like everything about my life is upside down. You know, it’s like... It’s like, “Wow. Why is this?” And then it’s just like it starts to filter in that so much of my life is intertwined with the church.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And that’s just... You know, my whole life is... I think it... I think I said these words out loud to somebody this week and it hit me in a different way. It’s like it was a joke before because my wife kept her name. So, in this...

THERAPIST: That’s interesting.

CLIENT: In this town, I’m Mr. Nickels.

THERAPIST: You’re Mr. Nickels? Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, because... You know, people accidentally take me... They just assume that my name is...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...Nickels. [00:02:59]

THERAPIST: That she took your name.

CLIENT: But it’s... You know, that’s what my role has been.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: My role has been...

THERAPIST: Mr. Nickels.

CLIENT: ...or Driving Miss Daisy. You know, like this is my... This is my role. And it’s like, “Oh my.” It’s just so pervasive that I’m like everything in my life seems upside down now.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, there’s a lot of meaning in what you’re saying. You know, so, you know, even your name is sort of not your name.

CLIENT: Well, yes and no. I mean... (PAUSE) I mean, I have an identity here and people know me.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But it’s like my role is...

THERAPIST: Right. (PAUSE) Was there discussion around you’re not participating in Easter or was it assumed?

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, it’s like... You know, it was clear. It was clear that I wasn’t going to choir practices and it was clear that, you know, class... I had class on Thursday night so, I mean, there’s a Thursday night service that it’s like didn’t go to that. [00:04:01]

Friday afternoon, didn’t go to that. So, I mean, it was just clear. But, you know, the kids all came home. So everybody would go and normally do the service.

THERAPIST: Oh. So the kids even came home? Oh, that’s a lot.

CLIENT: So it’s like everybody’s there except me.

THERAPIST: Yeah. How did all that go?

CLIENT: It really... You know, it went okay. It was like I was able to maintain like my role in terms of like doing the cooking and, you know, and being there for the kids when they were around. But it was... You know, it took a tremendous amount of effort to just...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...you know, be in that place. Not that I felt like I could go because, you know, quite often it’s just like, “Okay. Allow yourself to go there and imagine what that’s going to look like.” And it’s like...

THERAPIST: Which part of it?

CLIENT: Going to church. You know? Just backing down and going to church. You know, “What’s that going to feel like to you?”

THERAPIST: And?

CLIENT: And... No. Well, it’s just like all of that just seemed like I couldn’t, it would just be too crazy. [00:05:07]

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Seamus (ph), what was your kids’ response? This was the first time they’ve been home since there have been known problems.

CLIENT: You know, everybody kind of just stayed in this (PAUSE) place of not really talking about it too much.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I got a few minutes with my daughter. I had been trying to figure out how to make time alone with her, you know, for the two days she was home. And I was just like... You know, at some point, I grabbed about five minutes and I just said, “You know, I was hoping we’d figure out how to get more of a chance to talk.” So at least that kind of opened up that avenue and I told her I’d give her a call and we can talk some more on the phone.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But, you know... (PAUSE) It didn’t feel like there was estrangement. It didn’t feel like people were... You know, it’s like recognizing that there’s some stuff going on. But... [00:06:09]

(PAUSE) I did end up... Mary had like, I don’t know what day, Thursday or Friday, she had texted me and said, “I need...” Because my job, along with, you know, doing other things in the choir, was to be the guy who tried to figure out the sound board and run the sound board.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I couldn’t find anybody to run the sound board for... There’s like four services on Sunday morning, on the 11:30 service. The kids all have to play. They’re doing something musically at that service. “Would you run the sound board?” Or, “How do you feel about running the sound board?” [00:06:55]

And I thought about it for a while and I texted back and I said, “Okay,” and I said, “Sure. So I’ll try it.”

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But it was just... You know, it was painful.

THERAPIST: So you went? Yeah.

CLIENT: I went knowing that I probably shouldn’t and I went as an experiment to see how it was going to feel.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And... (PAUSE) You know, it just took so damn much effort to stay in my skin.

THERAPIST: Tell me about that.

CLIENT: It was just... (PAUSE) You know, it was like... I felt like I didn’t belong here. I felt like people were looking at me funny. You know, it’s just like, “Okay...” You know, it’s just like I’m... “Here comes the pariah.” You know?

THERAPIST: Like an imposter in your former life kind of thing?

CLIENT: Well, that’s a good question. Let me ask. (SIGH) (PAUSE) Yeah. It’s just a role that doesn’t work anymore. It’s a role that’s not comfortable. And it’s like I know how to play this game. I know how to do this role. And it’s like, okay, nothing’s changed except instead of me sitting here seething, wishing I wasn’t here, you know, I can now be in touch with all of these feelings and just... [00:08:11]

You know, I’m doing everything I can to like jump out of my skin and get the hell out of here.

THERAPIST: That’s a pretty strong description.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, it’s not... It’s a really... And... It’s a really visceral feeling.

THERAPIST: It is. I can see it.

CLIENT: And it’s like... And it’s permeated so much of the rest of my life. It’s just like...

THERAPIST: What sense do you make of this?

CLIENT: (SIGH) I’m one unhappy dude. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Are you?

CLIENT: Am I? (PAUSE) You know, it’s kind of like you know... You know, what your truth is. You know what you need to be doing in terms of getting out of this. But it just seems like... (PAUSE) You know, I... I don’t know if I was telling you about my friend Irene who’s a yoga instructor, kind of longtime friend in and out. But I mean, she’s mid-sixties. I kind of went over three weeks, four weeks... I don’t know what it was. [00:09:25]

I told her about my situation, kind of told her what kind of place I had come to. And she’s just like, “You need to get out of there. You need to get out of there quick.” And I’m like... (PAUSE) She’s probably right. But I couldn’t figure out how to do it.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: You know, in some ways, I’m imagining you, being a lapsed Christian myself, being at Easter mass, you know, running the sound board and it being, you know, like you’re visiting your old life and it reminds you of how much you didn’t like it, right, and why it’s such a poor fit. Right? [00:10:09]

It makes sense why you did it when you did it. But you can’t do it anymore.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Like not even a little bit.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: You know, and so, in some ways, even though it was a really painful experience like physically and emotionally painful experience, I would bet you almost needed to have that experience because it was intolerable for you. And it reminds you very clearly you can’t do that again.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like it’s sort of like a physical impossibility. It doesn’t fit. And so everything about it seems false...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And not true to who you are or what you want.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But it... It just makes it more clear. So, you know, when your friend says, “You need to get out of there and get out of there quick,” in some ways, I would argue that’s sort of what you’re doing emotionally. Right? [00:10:59]

You knew you couldn’t fully participate because that didn’t feel right. But, you know, a reasonable request, “Can you run the sound board?” “I don’t want to. But, sure, I will do this.” It allows you to kind of visit and recognize, you know, what you can’t do which is more data for you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know? So I don’t know if it... Even if it was a painful experience and I can see that, I almost think it was a necessary experience.

CLIENT: Well, I kind of... I’ve kind of been sitting with that and kind of feeling that was... You know, and... (PAUSE) We had a couple of talks over the weekend, Mary and I...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...and it’s just like... You know, I was in this place of really being pretty comfortable...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...of really being in my truth and being able to say, you know, a lot of the stuff that... And it’s not like I necessarily was saying it, anything new. But just being able to stay with, you know, what I’ve been saying... You know, it’s like... And I think emphatically and kind of clearly stating... It’s just like... [00:12:05]

You know, because I’ve been so open about saying, “Yeah, you know, this is the way that I’ve been dealing with the situation...”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: “...and, you know, here’s my shame issues and this is why I shut down,” and all that kind of thing, it’s like it’s been my narrative. So it’s been real easy to say, you know, now she’s, you know (PAUSE) adapting that or picking up on that. It’s like, well, now it’s...

THERAPIST: Well, clearly because she didn’t expect that you would have a presence.

CLIENT: Well...

THERAPIST: She didn’t expect it. She asked if you would do the sound board.

CLIENT: Oh no. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’m jumping.

THERAPIST: Oh okay.

CLIENT: I’m jumping out of that a little bit and saying that (PAUSE) my (PAUSE) letting her know that’s it’s been my... So what I’m saying is that I’ve been taking my half of the responsibility for this issue.

THERAPIST: Sure. Okay.

CLIENT: And she’s been allowing me.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And now it’s like, “Well, if you hadn’t shut down in this relationship...” It’s like... [00:13:09]

So, at some point, during the conversation, I was able to say, “Yeah. But you know what? From my side, I’m having exactly the same feelings.”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: “It’s like you shut down in this relationship and that’s been my experience.” You know, so I was able to kind of at least say those kind of things and, again, try to say it in some way that it’s like I... And I think I’ve given up.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I think it’s like it isn’t going to matter how you say this.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, it’s just... (PAUSE) It’s like the last eight years happened.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: The last eight years happened. It’s like, you know, trying to explain it to her. It’s like, “I don’t know how you can come to, you know, the end of these last eight years and have these warm, fuzzy feelings about me. It’s like I’ve been an asshole.” [00:14:01]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know, I’ve been this guy who has shut down. And the best that I can do is like snarkiness.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: “And you’re going to have warm, fuzzy feelings about me at this point?” It’s like...

THERAPIST: Maybe. You know, Seamus, are you familiar with narrative (ph) therapy at all?

CLIENT: I’ve heard about it.

THERAPIST: Okay. Let’s... If you can think of a name for the story of your life up until a couple of months ago, what name would you give it? (PAUSE)

CLIENT: Hmm. (PAUSE) Like a one word name or any name?

THERAPIST: Whatever you want it to be.

CLIENT: (SIGH) (PAUSE) Yeah. (PAUSE) [00:15:00]

(PAUSE) I don’t know. I’m just having this image of, you know, two wounded children (LAUGHTER) two wounded children, you know, driving the train. It’s like... You know?

THERAPIST: Two wounded children driving the train?

CLIENT: You know, it’s like it’s a train wreck. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hmm. And the train got wrecked. (PAUSE) And what about now?

CLIENT: What do I call it now?

THERAPIST: Yeah. What is it now? (PAUSE)

CLIENT: It sort of feels like (SIGH) (PAUSE) picking through the pieces of the wreck or sorting through the storm damage or whatever.

THERAPIST: So you can do what? [00:16:57]

CLIENT: (SIGH) I can do what? I can walk away.

THERAPIST: It looks like you’re about to hop another train to me.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know...

THERAPIST: So narrative therapy looks at the dominant story of your life. So we’ve looked at themes. Right? So if it’s two wounded children driving the train that eventually has a wreck... You know, we looked at insecurity themes and how you’re not okay and you’re not supposed to be and don’t talk about sex and don’t talk about this and, you know, all of these themes. And so you and your wounded wife drive the train that crashes and now you’re picking pieces out of your life that you still want out of the wreck so you can get on the train. It’s like creating another story altogether from the wreckage.

CLIENT: Yeah. Because I... You know, and I know that that’s where I’m at.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I know that... (SIGH) I just had this like (LAUGHTER) this sense of like just, “Damn it.”

THERAPIST: Damn it what? [00:17:01]

CLIENT: You know, this is where my life is. You know? It’s just like... You know, so I’m mad. I’m angry at that. You know, it’s like...

THERAPIST: Tell me what you’re angry about.

CLIENT: (SIGH) (PAUSE) You know... (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) Yeah. I guess I’m... This thought is just occurring, I guess. But it’s like, damn it. Twenty seven years of being the boy scout. Twenty seven years of like really trying to stick it out and just do the right stuff. And I’m like... It just crumbles to shit like that. And I’m like, “Okay, this is what I’ve got.”

THERAPIST: Okay. So what are you...

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) [00:17:53]

THERAPIST: Tell me about what you’re angry about because it’s always your laughter that hides...

CLIENT: Yeah. I know.

THERAPIST: ...what’s happening for you.

CLIENT: What am I angry at? (PAUSE) (SIGH) (PAUSE) I’m angry that, you know, I played the role of the good boy...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...and I still didn’t get what I wanted. You know?

THERAPIST: Which was...

CLIENT: It’s like... You know, it’s that sense of probably being the little kid, you know, desperately wanting Mom’s love, desperately wanting Mom’s attention, whatever. And it’s... As much as I’m the good boy, as much as I’m trying to do everything that she would expect me to do, there’s still three other kids and there’s still no time for me or there’s still... You know, there’s something wrong with me and our... You know, whatever those...

THERAPIST: You never got the approval. [00:18:51]

CLIENT: (SIGH)

THERAPIST: Validation, approval, acceptance.

CLIENT: Love. Yeah. Maybe.

THERAPIST: Yeah. But... And then you didn’t get it again. Right. What if you find you don’t need it from those sources as much as you thought you did? I mean, once you pick through the wreckage...

CLIENT: I know. And it’s like, “Oh shit.” Because I’m like... I’m seeing this in other peoples’ lives and other peoples’ stories. And it’s like, “Yeah. I know it’s me.” It’s like I’ve got to be able to find that love and acceptance from me. And that I know is key. And I’m not going to be able to find it from somebody else and nobody else is going to be able to give it to me.

THERAPIST: Well, you find it and have begun, in a real way, to find it within yourself. And then you can get parts of it from others.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But what it, you know, instead of... You know, I almost get a sense you’re looking at yourself like, “I fucking stayed in this thing for twenty seven years, you know, the good Boy Scout and I didn’t get anything or I didn’t get what I needed.” [00:19:59]

And I wonder... I mean, part of that’s clearly true. But I wonder if after you pick through the wreckage and hop another train, you know, in terms of taking the good parts of figuring out who you are and you find you do get what you want. It just doesn’t look like how you thought it would look. It doesn’t look like you’re going to get it through this particular marriage. Right? But in leaving the wreck behind and walking away, not unscathed, but walking away no longer the wounded child but the grown man, if you create an entirely new experience...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...where you finally get some of what you want because that’s where you’re headed, right, because... And here’s how I come to this. You have ceased to care as much about pleasing your wife. You dropped that like a bad habit. Right? You care enough about her not to be deliberately hurtful which is the good part of the Boy Scout. Okay? Right? [00:21:01]

But you no longer care about her opinion otherwise you would have been at Easter mass. Okay?

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, clearly the paradigm has shifted.

THERAPIST: Right. But that’s what’s enabling you to pick through the wreckage and hop to another train. Right? So the wounded kids (inaudible at 00:21:21) because you’re not a wounded kid anymore and you refuse to be in the... It’s like the skin of the kid is too small and that’s why it’s tight.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: So even though you’re in the middle of some really deeply painful shit, I wonder if once you pick through the wreckage and hop a different train, if you look back on the experience and you recognize, it took twenty seven years to get to the point where you don’t want to ride that train anymore.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I...

THERAPIST: Tell me your thoughts about that.

CLIENT: No. I mean... (SIGH) As I’m looking at, you know, my life or I’m looking at, or, you know, just within the last week or whatever... You know coming back from the counselor, the last marriage counselor and she was using words like separation and it’s not like Mary is using words like separation. [00:22:11]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And saying things to like... Chase asked me, “So, Dad, mom was saying something about the marriage counselor saying you guys might get separated or something.”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I’m like, “Oh, that’s really interesting that, you know, she said that to you.” I didn’t really engage in too much of that because I’m like... You know. So I said, “Well, it could be a possibility.” But, you know... No there’s almost this kind of sense that, you know, she’s saying those words and I’m wondering if it’s like... Part of me is wondering if it’s like some kind of a tactic she’s using to kind of like... You know, because I’m going to have to be the one that leaves. It’s like, “Okay.” I’m going to have to be the one that leaves. Well, I’m a full time student at Phoenix. I’m not really making an income at this point. So I’m thinking that is that... You know, my mind’s just going to gamesmanship (ph) (inaudible at 00:23:11). And it’s like, “Well, if you’re really faced with the reality of separation, you know, how are you going to do that? So you’re really not going to do it.” [00:23:21]

You know, so let’s just...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But I’m like, “Okay.” You know, it’s like I see the window is open or the door is open and it’s like I’m going. I don’t know how the hell I’m going to do it because I’m financially in the most vulnerable place I could ever be.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I’m like... And it’s like I’m in such a position at Phoenix that I’m like... I don’t want to leave this. You know, this is my future. This is where I’m going. So now it’s just a matter of like, “Okay, now I’ve got this issue to deal with.”

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:24:01]

CLIENT: You know, the practicalities of the reality of this, you know, it’s like... You know, and for me, separation is not like kind of a trial thing. It’s just like...

THERAPIST: A step. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But look how quickly...

CLIENT: I know. That’s ridiculous. It’s ridiculous how...

THERAPIST: ...how quickly you’ve moved, it’s moved. You know, it’s like really warp speed. You know, you came in, “I’m stuck. I’m stuck. I’m stuck,” you know, right, not willing to even look at or even ready to talk about... You know, and now you’re talking about separating...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...and how your old life is absolutely intolerable. I mean, it’s... And it seems like your head is spinning. But it’s been a pretty incredible... You’ve done an incredible amount of work in a short amount of time not without its emotional costs.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. I think that... Yeah. There’s no way anybody gets through this thing unscathed.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I know that, you know... I get... In the end, I get out probably. But it’s not without scars and damage. [00:25:03]

THERAPIST: Sure. Sure.

CLIENT: (SIGH)

THERAPIST: Two wounded children driving the car. (PAUSE) Tell me how you came up with that.

CLIENT: Well, you know, it’s recognizing... You know, it’s like we’re both... You know, we’re both just wounded people doing our best. You know, it’s like I didn’t intend to do this and she didn’t intend to do this. But, you know, the adults that need to be driving the car aren’t there.

THERAPIST: That’s true. The... I don’t know. I think the naming of that story in some ways is appropriate because it doesn’t assign blame. If you’re both two wounded kids driving the car and kids shouldn’t be driving...

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:25:57]

THERAPIST: ...you know, it doesn’t really assign blame and there’s really only one outcome when you have two kids driving a car. It’s going to crash.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: How old do you think the kids are?

CLIENT: (SIGH) They’re... You know, for me, probably about two or three. And for her...

THERAPIST: And for her?

CLIENT: ...it’s probably around four.

THERAPIST: Toddlers.

CLIENT: Yeah. Nobody should have left them alone in the car.

THERAPIST: No. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: So... (PAUSE) Yeah. You know, I recognize I was just sitting with a lot of sadness over the weekend, you know, just really viscerally (ph) feeling the sadness, not breaking into tears. You know? I feel like probably they’re there. I don’t know at this point really what’s holding them back. You know? But...

THERAPIST: What would it be like to let them out?

CLIENT: (SIGH) I don’t know because it’s been so damn long since I’ve just cried over anything. I don’t even remember. [00:27:03]

THERAPIST: Could you imagine? So it out be then pre... Could you imagine holding the two year old, the one year old?

CLIENT: (SIGH) (PAUSE) I can sort of visualize it in my head but I’m just like...

THERAPIST: Can you visualize your son as a baby? You have two sons. One of them. And what did you do when one of them cried?

CLIENT: Just held them, you know, let them kind of bury their head into my shoulder or something and whatever...

THERAPIST: And did you try to comfort?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What did you do?

CLIENT: Just held them, rocked them, pat them on the back.

THERAPIST: Spoke?

CLIENT: Yeah. Probably.

THERAPIST: Did it work?

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: That’s what you needed. That’s what you need.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:28:07]

THERAPIST: It’s amazing how unabashed you can be with your children, right, when they’re babies, when they’re toddlers. You just do kind of what feels natural.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right. But what you forget to do for yourself and that’s what you need.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (PAUSE) Yeah. So the other issue that I feel like is there for me and it’s kind of like really mixing up my head too is like knowing that... (PAUSE) You know, I feel like this whole, this image that I have of me coming to this awakening moment is almost like a baby bird dropping out of the nest. You know? So it’s like I’ve just been sputtering all around, you know, trying to find my footing or my wings or whatever and it’s just not a very graceful picture. [00:29:05]

You know? (LAUGHTER) You know? Not able to deal with emotion correctly and feeling like I’m just kind of floundering all over the place. You know, so in the midst of that, you know, I’m dealing with all of this anger and rage that I’ve never dealt with before and I’ve been able to find a voice and I’ve been able to speak it and, you know, to let everybody know that I can’t so this anymore. You know? And it’s like... And then just feeling in this place of like I’m just, you know, incredibly devoid of (PAUSE) you know, anything in my life, you know, friendship, intimacy. You know? All the sudden, you’re like awakened to like friendship. You know? Here. You know? [00:29:59]

So now I’m like, “Great.” You know? I’ve got a friendship that I’m developing and it’s like...

THERAPIST: It’s like what?

CLIENT: It’s complicated.

THERAPIST: Yes. It is.

CLIENT: It’s complicated.

THERAPIST: Tell me about the feelings that you’re experiencing in the friendship.

CLIENT: Well, it’s like, “Gosh bless it.” You know? It’s like... It’s what you would want...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...you know, in terms of like an emotional friendship and it’s like somebody that would actually talk to me and like... You know, it’s... (PAUSE) And it doesn’t have to be much. You know? And it’s like, “Holy crap.” You know, so I recognize that it’s like... (SIGH) (PAUSE) So how much... And I can’t deny the fact that it’s had an impact on, you know, where I’m going and what this has been. You know, it’s like I tried to separate all that out. You know? And it’s like...

THERAPIST: Well, that’s impossible. [00:31:01]

CLIENT: That’s impossible. I can’t do that.

THERAPIST: So tell me some more about the friendship and your feelings.

CLIENT: The friendship is... (PAUSE) You know, it’s like... It’s really like a bad plot from a miniseries or something. It’s like, you know, two people find each other in almost identical situations. I’m like, “Of course you do.” (LAUGHTER) Of course you do.

THERAPIST: So this person is also in a relationship which is ended. Yeah. Right. This is...

CLIENT: Of course you do.

THERAPIST: Well, that’s why you found each other and that’s why you get it. You get each other.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So, you know, we’ve become an ear for each other.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Sure.

CLIENT: And, you know, we’re both in counseling, in the counseling program. So, you know, we’re both working on our stuff. We’re both encouraging each other to stand in our truth. And I’m like, “Oh my.” (LAUGHTER) [00:31:57]

And it’s wonderful.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, it’s wonderful...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...to be able to have a friend and a confidant.

THERAPIST: But?

CLIENT: But it’s... (PAUSE) Now I’m in this place of like, “Damn it.” Now I’m in this place of inauthenticity.

THERAPIST: How?

CLIENT: Because I don’t want to be in this place of like denying or playing some kind of game like this doesn’t exist. And it’s like the more this friendship grows, the more I’m feeling like... (PAUSE) You know? And it’s like not that I’m feeling... I’m trying to save...

THERAPIST: The more the friendship grows...

CLIENT: The more I feel like I’m, you know, hiding, being subversive. And I’m like I don’t want to live like that. I’ve never had to live like that. You know? I’ve never done that.

THERAPIST: Because the feelings that you have... I’m assuming this is a woman. Towards this woman are probably turning romantic, somewhat sexual, emotional, intimate. Yeah because that’s... [00:33:03]

CLIENT: Because that’s what happens.

THERAPIST: Yeah. So, first of all, you’re a human being. Congratulations. You can stop blaming yourself for being a human being.

CLIENT: Okay. That’s one. Check.

THERAPIST: You are a human. Right? And that would not have been a possibility for you before because your mind would not have opened to that because you were still playing the role of Mr. Nickels.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And now... So...

CLIENT: I mean, eight years I didn’t do anything.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Eight years. You know...

THERAPIST: Are you concerned that you will act sexually?

CLIENT: No. But what I’m concerned is that this will become the issue. And that’s what I didn’t want.

THERAPIST: Well, it’s not the issue. But it complicates the issue and it’s already complicated. So you can’t go back to uncomplicating it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But what these sort of downfall of your marriage to Mary was, has been happening for a really long time. [00:34:01]

CLIENT: Oh yeah. It’s not like I’m... It’s not like I’m putting that in there...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...and saying that this is the problem.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Or this was the cause.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: What I’m saying is that it’s complicating it.

THERAPIST: It’s complicating it. You know, the biggest issue... I guess my biggest concern for you that I would have for you in this is that you would fall for one another hard as you may be starting to and then if you do act sexually, you’re not going to forgive yourself easily for that.

CLIENT: Yeah. No. And we’ve had the discussion.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And (PAUSE) I think that we’re both, we both clearly see that.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: We both clearly see that there’s like enormous possibility.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, but there’s also enormous amount of crap.

THERAPIST: Well, there’s so much energy around it. I mean, there’s energy around it and there’s desire and there’s longing and there’s the fact that you get one another and it’s a very powerful combination. [00:35:07]

Right? And I think...

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: It’s almost like two magnets.

CLIENT: Oh my gosh. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh sure. You know, and it’s very, very difficult to resist the pull.

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. How are you doing with that?

CLIENT: (SIGH) (PAUSE) Well, I think I’m doing okay. I think that... (PAUSE) I can clearly see that, you know, being in a counseling, being a counselor and understanding, you know, the whole border issue, you know, understanding, you know, boundaries, it’s like, “Yeah. This is difficult stuff.”

THERAPIST: It is. [00:35:55]

CLIENT: And I feel like... (PAUSE) You know, for somebody who is as emotionally vulnerable as I am and have been the past couple of months, it’s just like, “Wow.” This would be really good for you to kind of get cleared up before you became a counselor. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Well, it’s also energizing. It’s a relationship that’s energizing. It’s (inaudible at 00:36:19)

CLIENT: I mean, it’s doing everything...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...for my neurochemicals (ph).

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It’s like, “Well, of course I’m coming back tomorrow because I’m getting my hit tomorrow.”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Whatever. You know...

THERAPIST: And she is too.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, and it’s like, “Oh yeah. I clearly see that there’s all kinds of, there are all kind of issues surrounding...”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s like... Well, yeah, first of all, it would be a really good idea maybe if we both kind of got our issues personally dealt with.

THERAPIST: Yeah. That’s going to be difficult to do, isn’t it? I mean, it’s not... I wish I could tell you (LAUGHTER) that this is going to be clean. But it’s not clean. It’s complicated. You know? [00:37:03]

This person is not the demise of your marriage, had nothing to do with the demise of your marriage.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right. But, in some ways, you know, and I don’t know a lot of (inaudible at 00:37:15) this person, this relationship is in your life for some reason.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right? And...

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, there’s too much like synchronicity. There’s too much serendipity. It’s like, “Oh my gosh.” You know, it’s like...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Do you want to talk about her a little bit?

CLIENT: (SIGH) (PAUSE) We’re nearly the same age, you know, I think. (SIGH) Personality types, we’re both ENFBs (ph) which could be another train wreck. (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) Yeah. You know, fun. You know, it’s... [00:38:05]

In a lot of ways, there’s a lot like, “Well, if I could pick the opposite of my wife...”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: “...you know, that would be pretty close.”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: (SIGH)

THERAPIST: She’s in a relationship that’s ending as well?

CLIENT: Yeah. She and her husband have actually gone through like some of the divorce stuff, you know, like drawing up papers and that kind of thing but they’ve never actually, you know... He’s separated and he’s been out living on his own for a couple of years. But, you know, there’s... (PAUSE) Yeah. So I think she’s been in this place of not being sure if she could let it go and that kind of thing. I think knowing that it’s probably over...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...but just, you know, some of her old childhood stuff come into play.

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:39:03]

CLIENT: And I think that’s she’s coming to recognize that she’s somebody who (PAUSE) has been able to derive her meaning and self-esteem from placating narcissists. (PAUSE) So if I do everything I can to placate...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...the narcissist, then I have meaning and worth. But you never get anything from a narcissist.

THERAPIST: Well, and something is echoing from your own story. We won’t call you wife a narcissist at all. But, you know, in terms of the idea that if I’m good and I do everything right, then I’m going to get the love and affection and attention I deserve.

CLIENT: And there’s clearly, you know, manipulative behavior going on.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, so we’re going, we’re looking at each other and like, you know, there’s a lot of similarity in the story.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So, you know, it’s just like, “Oh my.” You know? So yeah. You know, we’re a couple of lonely people. [00:40:03]

You know? But, you know, I think we also, you know, resonate... Not that she’s Taoist, you know, but she’s clearly supportive of whatever spiritual path, wherever I’m at and that’s like, “Okay, could that be more opposite of where I’m from?” You know, just there’s... Oh my gosh. This is what it feels like to be in a relationship with somebody who would just allow me to be me...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...for me.

THERAPIST: And it’s also... It’s a new relationship.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, it’s got the...

THERAPIST: It’s easy to sort of compare the new to the...

CLIENT: Oh yeah. I know.

(CROSSTALK)

THERAPIST: Yeah. It’s...

CLIENT: ...that doesn’t have twenty seven years of baggage and...

THERAPIST: But it’s... It’s allowed to be complicated, Seamus. You can’t clean it up. It’s just messy. Right? But in the messiness are some more powerful lessons for you about some of the things that you’re looking for, whatever happens with your new friend in the future. There’s some powerful lessons about what you need which is why it’s such an attractive situation and what you’re looking for and what you’re not looking for. You’re pretty clear on what you don’t want as you finish picking through the wreckage and find the new train to get on. [00:41:27]

Right? This is in some ways teaching you what that experience might be like, what you want and what you need. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: (SIGH) Yeah. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: You know, and it’s okay to turn to one another for support as long as you’re turning to others for support and you are. You know, you recognize the pitfalls. Right? If you’re living in truth, and you are, it’s about being honest with yourself. I think sometimes it’s about when we are not honest with ourselves or the way we feel about someone else or sexual attraction or whatever that we fall. Right? [00:42:09]

If you’re being honest with yourself and you’re saying, “Okay. You know, I’m really liking this. I’m really... Here’s the sexual aspect,” you know, all of that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Then, in some ways, it’s still complicated to deal with it but you’re honest about it...

CLIENT: Well, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Which means you don’t mess... You’re not taken by surprise I guess is what I’m trying to say. When you’re taken by surprise, oh, you’ve had sex and you wake up in the bed next to someone. You don’t have to be taken by surprise. The feelings are all brewing.

CLIENT: No. Yeah. And, you know, I really... (PAUSE) I really don’t see that happening. You know, I feel like... The potential is there.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: I get that. You know, and I don’t... (PAUSE) But the... You know, I think that the authenticity... It’s like, “Look. We know.”

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:43:01]

CLIENT: You know, we understand that there is an incredible attraction here.

THERAPIST: Sure. What’s it like to have her be attracted to you?

CLIENT: Well, it’s... You know... (PAUSE) It changes my paradigm.

THERAPIST: How?

CLIENT: It’s like having somebody like think that, you know, I’m a good looking guy, it’s like, “Wow. That’s the...” That’s incredible stuff. You know, it’s like... To be attracted to me sexually... Wow. That’s incredible. I’m pretty sure I don’t even have an inkling of what that means. You know, it’s like... So there’s just so many old stories that are being like crushed.

THERAPIST: Sure. And what if she’s not the only one? She’s special and she’s...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...kind of present now. What if she’s not the only one who would be sexually attracted to you or would think that you are attractive?

CLIENT: You know, I feel like... Okay, I’ve got enough problems in my life right now. (LAUGHTER) [00:44:05]

THERAPIST: No. But I mean in the new train ride, in the new story, for your new story.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: After you’ve picked through the wreckage. What if she’s just a symbol, an important...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, she is a friend. It’s a genuine... I’m not saying it. But what if it’s just like kind of a whispering of what’s out there for you, the possibilities?

CLIENT: (SIGH) (PAUSE) What does it feel like? Or what are you asking me?

THERAPIST: I’m asking you if you can imagine what if this is a hint of the possibilities to come that you could find other people, other women who would want to connect with you in intimate ways?

CLIENT: It seems a little overwhelming.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: No? It’s like that reality is such a new reality that it seems almost overwhelming.

THERAPIST: Okay. That’s fair. [00:45:01]

CLIENT: It’s like somebody who’s been in the dark so long that when you step out into the light it’s kind of like...

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) You know, I’m laughing because I have a... I think I told you I have a good friend of mine... He’s a psychologist. Most of them are. It’s very odd to have lots of male psychologist friends. And he and his wife of twenty five, twenty six years got a divorce recently. And he started dating again. And he has all of the... He is shocked... Women throwing themselves at him. And he’s kind of a modest guy but he’s an attractive guy and he’s smart and he’s, he listens and he does all these things. I, who came to the marriage game late in life, and he, who just left the marriage game, we have all these interesting stories to share. And he sort of surprised, pleasantly, you know, and he disclosed to me that he and his wife hadn’t been intimate in five or six years, you know, he said because there were too many power struggles around that and he’s like, “And I wasn’t doing that.” [00:45:59]

But, in a short amount of time, and it’s not that he still doesn’t hurt over... He’s got two teenage girls. So hurt over the fact that, you know, this wasn’t, the picture that he had for his life and, you know, I think, if it were up to him, in some ways, he would still be married. But he’s been very kind of shocked and surprised at the number of women who are not only strongly attracted to him but have sort of chased him down with a stick. And he’s like, “This is not the dating game I left twenty five years ago.” And I’m like, “No, it’s not.” And I think, in some ways, it’s been good for his ego. Right? He’s not somebody who’s going to kind of abuse the privilege. But it’s been very good. I imagine that my friend will get married again someday because he sees himself as that type of guy. But, in the meantime, you know, it’s opened kind of a whole new world to him. And these are not just women his age. These are women of all kind of ages, you know, from thirty on up, you know, which he’s also been surprised because he’s in his early fifties. [00:47:05]

I’m like, “They don’t care. I don’t know why you thought they did.” (LAUGHTER) So I guess... You know, who knows if we’re going to predict your story. But I think that you’re married for twenty seven years and you see yourself in a particular sort of way. But that’s doesn’t mean that that’s the way the world sees you and that is not especially the way the romantic world sees you. You know, and you don’t that. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What do you make of that?

CLIENT: It’s just so... It’s so mind boggling right now. The whole trip has been mind boggling.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it’s been mind boggling fast and I can barely get my head around it. Now I’m like, “Oh, and you want to complicate it even more? Oh great.”

THERAPIST: Sure. But I guess, you know, to contextualize it, your world is changing rapidly. You know, I’ve had several, you know, several of my male psychologist friends who have gotten a divorce (LAUGHTER) and found kind of, you know, what it was like to kind of go out there and many of them have found it to be empowering. [00:48:11]

You know, seeking intimacy still, you know, finding intimacy, not just sexual intimacy... I’m talking about... You know, because these are guys who are, you know, psychologist guys, feeling guys.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) Weirdoes.

THERAPIST: No. (LAUGHTER) You know, but in some ways the type of man in counseling who is interested in emotional intimacy and an emotional connection is like a damn aphrodisiac for many women out there who’ve been dating more of your sort of traditional character. That point of connection is deeply important for many people. So, you know, I guess in putting this in context, you’re in the pit of hell now. Right? [00:48:57]

However, you’re not going to stay here. Just like you didn’t stay stuck. Right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, you’re working through it, you’re recognizing the old mold. You’ve kind of broken it. It doesn’t fit. Right? And this woman’s presence in your life should be a powerful symbol to you about the possibilities. Right? So you’ve left a very lonely, lonely marriage. Right? And on your way out of it, you’re finding that it’s less lonely on the way out of it, in some ways, than it was in it. (PAUSE) Does that ring for you at all?

CLIENT: Oh yeah. I mean, I get it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I get all of that. You know? I think that the... (PAUSE) You know, I’m good with like out here.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? I think where I’m at right now is struggling with this transition.

THERAPIST: Sure. Well, you’re in the wreck now. [00:49:59]

CLIENT: And it’s like... You know, I had some ideas about how I wanted the wreckage to be. I had some idea about, you know, can we crash this thing in a controlled way?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: You can never control the crash.

CLIENT: And I’m like, “Shit.”

THERAPIST: Because if you could control it, it would look how for you?

CLIENT: That this part would have waited until I was clearly out of the wreckage.

THERAPIST: The new friendship? Yeah. No. And, again, it’s... Crashes are messy. They’re not clean. You know, but in some way, I mean, the... You can think of the friendship as a beacon of light in some darkness, not her per se. But the friendship and the possibilities.

CLIENT: I understand what you’re saying. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: You know, yeah. Because, you know, there’s... I understand and there’s clearly issues around, you know... (PAUSE) Not that I’m wanting to jump from one relationship into the other. You know, it’s like, “Yeah. You know, we need to... You know, there needs to be some space and some cooling...”

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:51:11]

CLIENT: “...off time and looking at things rationally and things like that.” Because it’s like, you know... I don’t know who I am coming into this. It’s pretty clear she doesn’t know who she is. So it’s like maybe it would be kind of good for me to figure out who you are first before you try to sort out with somebody else. You know?

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So I feel like I’m still... I’ve still got a lot of work to do. You know, so... (PAUSE) I won’t engage in that. That doesn’t necessarily mean that I want to like cut that off either.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But it’s like can we do this responsibly? Can we be like mature adults? I’m not sure. I hope so.

THERAPIST: Well, that’s where honesty and conversation comes in.

CLIENT: And it’s incredible. It’s like, “Oh my. This is how you have a relationship. Oh my. We can talk about anything. I can talk about nothing.” [00:52:07]

You know, with my wife, I can talk about everything. So I’m like... (SIGH) And again, I’m not like... I’m not wanting to spend any time going, “Well, if that would have happened twenty seven years ago,” or whatever.

THERAPIST: Sure, sure. Well...

CLIENT: If I would have had the skills that I have now. But I’m like...

THERAPIST: Or the expectation and twenty seven years ago, some of that was probably there.

CLIENT: It probably was.

THERAPIST: You may not remember it. But some of it was probably there.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, and it’s like... (PAUSE) Shit happened along the way.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, so it’s like... (PAUSE) I can’t change that either.

THERAPIST: How are you doing right now?

CLIENT: (SIGH) I suppose I’m doing okay. A little bit better...

THERAPIST: You’re sorting through the shit.

CLIENT: Oh my. Oh, I know. And, again, I’m not saying this with (PAUSE) too much sincerity. But it’s like, you know, when I allow myself to go back to the place of like, “Well, you can just stay here and pick up where you left off. You can figure out how to stay in this mess if you want to,” it’s like I could clearly see how, you know, you could get to the point of suicide thinking about that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I don’t think you can. I think you’re past the point of no return with that. I think, to use your words, you put the nuclear option on the table. I don’t think you could go back. You can’t go to Easter mass. You can’t go back to that.

CLIENT: I just kind of... Yeah. And as much as I thought...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...that I wasn’t Wil E. Coyote with the dynamite, I’m pretty sure that I fucking blew it all to hell.

THERAPIST: Well, you did. But it was kind of coming.

CLIENT: Yeah. I know. It’s just that, you know, I happened to be the one that precipitated it. You know, I’m not sure that Mary ever would have. But I’m like... I just couldn’t take it anymore. [00:54:01]

THERAPIST: Sure. Well, you couldn’t take it anymore and you can’t go back. So that’s not even a possibility.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: And, in some ways, that’s a decision made, that’s a door closed. Whatever that looks like you’re still figuring out. But that’s a decision made.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right? And now the train has fallen off the track and you are picking through the wreckage. And from the wreckage, you’ll take the things with you that you need from this. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah. Whatever that is.

THERAPIST: You’re going to figure that out, I know.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. So anyway, thank you. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Powerful analogy. You know, I know it doesn’t feel like you’re doing well and I can’t name your experience. But wow. You know, since we have been taping, if you ever want to go back and hear sessions one or two... [00:55:01

CLIENT: I don’t think I want to right now.

THERAPIST: You may not. But I’ll save them for you. So if you ever want to, you will be able to see. You’re going to go like, “Damn. I did all that?” I’ll be like, “Yeah. Pretty quick.”

CLIENT: Well, I know it’s been pretty damn quick.

THERAPIST: So we are okay for next week for 12:30. Okay. So I will be coming from somebody’s presentation. I will run down here and we will be on. Thanks for your flexibility again.

CLIENT: Yeah. Okay.

THERAPIST: Hang in there and like I said you can always drop me an e-mail between sessions. I’ll give you a call.

CLIENT: Yeah. Thanks for that.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Alright.

THERAPIST: Take care of yourself.

END TRANSCRIPT