TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: How are you? What’s happening?

CLIENT: I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Where was I? And I’ll try to bring you up to speed.

THERAPIST: Okay. So let’s think.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Last time...

CLIENT: I’m...

THERAPIST: ...was around Easter. Is that right? Where we didn’t do Easter. We talked about kind of not doing Easter...

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: ...the way that you did, the kids coming home...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...you know, you’re session with the counselor.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: We talked about that. Yeah. I think that’s... And you kind of... Moving towards the end of this, I think we talked about kind of your feelings towards your friend, your developing feelings towards your friend. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah. I think that... (SIGH) (PAUSE) Yeah. Another counseling session today.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I’m walking away from that kind of feeling like a cornered animal.

THERAPIST: Okay. Tell me what happened. It sounds pretty heavy. [00:00:59]

CLIENT: You know, I went in there and it was kind of like...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I tried to express what I was feeling and where I was at and it was just like, “Yeah, you know, I know that there’s this, you know, pressure for me to get out of the intersection.” You know? And... (PAUSE) And there’s, you know, this push.

THERAPIST: And you’re saying this?

CLIENT: No. That’s (PAUSE) Mary and the counselor. There’s kind of this push to, you know... And I’m trying to express... It’s like, you know... I feel like I’ve been in this place of great emotionality.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know, the last six or seven weeks and certainly early on... And, you know, I recognize, you know, it would be nice to get to a place of equal out, a little equilibrium with all of that to be able to feel like I’m making a rational decision. [00:01:55]

THERAPIST: You look hurt.

CLIENT: I feel a little bit.

THERAPIST: What happened today that was hurtful?

CLIENT: It just... It’s just all about feeling like okay... (SIGH) (PAUSE) I’m not sure that anybody’s really going to listen.

THERAPIST: Okay. Did you feel attacked in session today?

CLIENT: Yeah. A little bit.

THERAPIST: Okay. Tell me a little bit about how it went.

CLIENT: You know, the... I had decided, at some point over the weekend, that I was like, “Well, you know, maybe the best thing for me is to really look at this.” You know, and I had a conversation with a couple of friends. And I’m like, “Do I really want to walk away without feeling like I did everything I could?” (PAUSE) So I, you know, made this attempt on Saturday morning and it was just like, “Can I do this? Can I go in this place? You know?” And so I’m like... I made coffee for her. I went in and, you know, we had kind of a rough discussion the night before so it was like, “Hey, I’m sorry that it worked out that way and it ended on that note,” and, you know, tried to employ a little bit of, you know, Seligman’s) positive psychology. [00:03:09]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And it’s like, “Alright. Let’s come up with five things that, you know, are kind of positive things to say.” You know, and I think I tried to employ that and it kind of eased things up a little bit. And then there was a family wedding...

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: ...or a friend’s wedding that day. And I recognized that, you know, it’s like we have this public marriage.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So the way that I kind of pulled out of choir and pulled out of Easter and all that kind of stuff kind of left everybody feeling awkward. So this was an opportunity for me to engage in like, “Okay, let me go back into this and just, you know, say, ‘Hey...’ Maybe I don’t have to say anything at all. But like I’m back here and it’s like, you know...” Maybe this is, you know, the look of a guy who’s trying.

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:03:57]

CLIENT: So I went to the wedding and that went fairly well. And I had to go sing. I was up in the choir loft and I was like, “Okay. I’ll just focus on the music, focus on the singing, focus on my role doing that stuff.” And it went fairly well, I thought. And then I had a couple of hours downtime between the wedding and reception. I went and had coffee with my boys and came home to play in this wedding cello and violin. And then I went to the reception. And I was doing okay until like after the dinner and the dance began.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And then it was just like... (LAUGHTER) In my mind, it was kind of like one of those movies... I don’t know who the director is that does this kind of... Well, there’s a lot of them. But it’s just this like hand held camera. It’s jerky. You get a lot of quick images and it’s all coming at you and it’s just like, you know, one happy couple after another happy couple dancing and having fun.

THERAPIST: Appearing happy couple [00:04:59]

CLIENT: Well, okay. Yeah. I mean, whole lots of people having fun dancing, you know... (PAUSE) You know... This was an Irish wedding. It was raucous and it was wild and crazy and I’m just like (PAUSE) feeling more and more constricted as the evening was going on. I think I stayed for probably about an hour but I just got to this point of like...

THERAPIST: What were you feeling watching all this?

CLIENT: A lot of sadness, a lot of, you know, knowing that I’m sitting next to somebody, we’re in like, the feeling is not even there for me.

THERAPIST: So really acute grief...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...as you’re watching what you wanted, what could have bee.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then going out on the dance... You know, I was going to... I said, “Hey, you know, I’ve had enough. I pretty much have to go home.” And she goes, “Well, can we do one dance before you go?” And it was just really uncomfortable.

THERAPIST: I can imagine. How was that for you? [00:05:57]

CLIENT: Um... (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: What did it feel like?

CLIENT: I was trapped.

THERAPIST: So trapped...

CLIENT: I was trapped physically because I was up against the stage and all these people were, you know, surrounding us. It was like, “Okay. I can’t even run if I want to.” But that was the feeling of, “I need to get out of here,” kind of feeling.

THERAPIST: And you were dancing and feeling what? (PAUSE)

CLIENT: (SIGH) I didn’t want to be dancing.

THERAPIST: Disingenuine maybe?

CLIENT: “I’m just going through the motions here. I’m a guy going through the motions and I don’t like this at all. I don’t like this feeling. It’s like...” (SIGH)

THERAPIST: Sounds like a visceral reaction.

CLIENT: It was.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, I could feel it. And I’m like... So I’m like... (SIGH) You know, this internal thing... It’s like, “Is this real? Is this real or is this something that I’m imagining? Am I trying to make it this way?” You know? So I’m really kind of fighting with that. [00:07:01]

But I’m like, “Damn it. You know what you’re feeling and your feeling is you don’t want to be dancing.”

THERAPIST: Sure. Because dancing is a symbol of what it’s not, what you wanted it to be, and as you’re watching all these couples feeling like an imposter out there. Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Painful.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, and I know what’s going on. It is that, you know, she’s looking up at me and she’s looking for anything, she’s looking for any sign.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, and I’m just like... It just felt to me like... It was such a clinging moment.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s like... Nothing really endears you to somebody as much as clinging does.

THERAPIST: Well, it’s like you’re in your own personal pain of not being able to survive the, you know, visceral reaction to...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...grief and not being genuine and she’s looking like, “Can you just give me a sign that we can work through this and be okay,” and you can’t. So you’re in your pain and then you’re watching her in yours. I’m just imagining how torturous and painful that is.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: What’s it like to talk about it?

CLIENT: (SIGH) It’s really... It’s really hard.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I’ve just been... You know, I went home and I was in just such sadness, such deep, deep sadness about this, you know, and I’m just like, “Oh my.”

THERAPIST: You’ve moved from anger to grieving.

CLIENT: I think so. I really think so.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Just... A couple of different times, it’s just like... Not that I’ve just broken down and sobbed. But, you know, clearly the tears are coming. And...

THERAPIST: Well, there are all kinds of ways to grieve.

CLIENT: I know. (PAUSE) I don’t know that but...

THERAPIST: I can tell how sad it is for you. I mean, you look really hurt. And, you know... So the wedding was what day?

CLIENT: Saturday.

THERAPIST: Okay. And then it sounds like you tried to make attempts like, you know... And, you know, I always say you should work at it until you can’t do it anymore so you have no regrets. [00:08:59]

CLIENT: (SIGH) And I felt like am I really being genuine while I do this? You know, and... Well, clearly, clearly, I’m going to have to sit here and do a fake it until you make it kind of attitude. And I’m like, “I don’t know if I can do that.” I don’t know if I can bring that.

THERAPIST: You know, I wonder if I could give you a different frame work because I don’t know if it’s faking it until you make it. It feels like that. I can appreciate that it feels like that. But I wonder if it’s kind of... You know, right now it’s very tangled. You’re tangled together and your lives are tangled together. But it’s kind of about becoming detangled, in a way. In a way that you’re not jerking away. It’s a slower dance than that. It’s a different dance.

CLIENT: I’m not sure that they’re going to let me do a slow detangle.

THERAPIST: Well, what happened in the session?

CLIENT: (SIGH) So I’m trying to explain... And Mary is like, “Well, I know that we really didn’t have a chance to talk about it over the weekend or after Saturday. So I’m just wondering if we can use this time with the counselor to talk about what your feelings were about the wedding.”

THERAPIST: Okay. [00:10:05]

CLIENT: And I’m just like, “Well, okay.” So, you know, I’m kind of laying out those feelings and laying out my experience. (PAUSE) And then... I don’t know. I’m trying to remember details. But... (PAUSE) I know that, you know, where we came to is like that position of like, “Well, how long... So Mary, how long are you willing to allow for this indecision?”

THERAPIST: That’s an interesting question.

CLIENT: Yeah. And, at one point, I thought, “Hmm. I thought we were supposed to avoid the why questions.” But, you know, I was (PAUSE) talking about, you know, the activity of, you know, doing five positive things. I know Mary was talking about five positive things. [00:10:59]

And, you know, it seemed like he was really trying. You know, I know he was having some difficulty with that. And the counselor just fired over. It was like, “Well, why? Why would it be so hard for you?” And I’m like, “Okay. Well, maybe it’s because the last eight years just happened in my life.” You know, I just of laid that out for her. But I’m just like... I just kind of felt like...

THERAPIST: At attack.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, I’m just like... So I was on the defensive after that.

THERAPIST: Did you say you felt attacked?

CLIENT: I let everybody know that I was feeling pressured.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I felt like I was coming in trying to explain that, “Hey, I’d like to do this in a little bit more rational pace. I’d like to move a little bit slower on this.” And the counselor basically said, “Well, you know what you know. And, you know, whether it’s two days or two weeks from now, you know what you know.” I’m like, “Wow. Really? You know me that well?” I’m like... [00:12:03]

THERAPIST: It kind of pissed you off too. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: Maybe a little bit. I don’t feel like there’s been an alliance made with this woman.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know, so it’s just been sit down and deal with these issues. I’m like, “I don’t even know who the hell you are.” And I’m sitting there, “You know, I don’t have anything for you as a counselor.”

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And now I’m feeling under attack and I’m like, “This is not working real well for me right now.”

THERAPIST: Seamus, what if it’s true? You know what you know but you’re not ready to share it.

CLIENT: You know, I think more than one friend has asked me that question.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, what if that’s true?

CLIENT: What if that’s true? Then I feel like... (PAUSE) You know, and I’ve been able to say to other people...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s like, “You know what? If they’re pushing me, you know, if they’re pushing me to make a decision...”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: “...about separation, it’s like it’s going to mean, you know, that I’m going to have to go out and figure out how to support myself because I don’t have a job right now. I’m a full time student.” I’m going to have to figure out how to support myself and be a student and figure all of that out. And all of my emotional pie is going to go into survival mode. [00:13:15]

And I’m not going to have anything to want to devote to working it out in the relationship. And I’m going to feel under attack or under siege whether that’s the intention or not. And that’s not going to put me in a place of like wanting to figure things out in a rational manner. And I will figure it out. And I will be out.

THERAPIST: It’s like you’ve been backed in a corner, you know, and you’re coming out with your dukes up.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess and it’s like, if this is clearly it, you know, clearly, I get no room for this.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I get no, you know, I get no say in how we proceed forward with this, then... [00:13:57]

THERAPIST: Well, and what is Mary saying about this? You feel like she is also pressuring you to make a decision?

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, and she was kind of saying that in the counseling session. And clearly the terms are... The terms are, you know, you can stay here for the summer but you’re going to come down to the bed.

THERAPIST: Oh my goodness. “You can stay here but you have to sleep with me.” Wow.

CLIENT: “Because this is too humiliating for me, for my sons to come home and to know that you’re sleeping upstairs.” It’s like, “Okay.”

THERAPIST: Well, that’s definitely a pressuring statement.

CLIENT: It’s very controlling. It feels very... You know, this is how it’s going to be. You know? Which is always the way it’s been.

THERAPIST: Well, but let’s back up for a second because she can’t make you come down to the bed and the two of you own the house. So she can’t... You know, I don’t want to introduce the ugliness...

CLIENT: I know, I know.

THERAPIST: But she can’t... You’re not going to come down to the bed unless the two of you decide that you’re going to come down to the bed. And you’re not going to leave unless the two of you decide at, you know, you are going to leave. [00:15:05]

I mean, this is not... The two of you own the house and, you know...

CLIENT: I know.

(CROSSTALK)

CLIENT: And it’s just like because you happened to be, because you happen to have the paying job right now...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...and you happen to have this position of... And I... Yeah, I get it. It’s complex. It’s not as cut and dried as that.

THERAPIST: It’s not.

CLIENT: I mean, it’s very complex.

THERAPIST: It is. It is. But if we... If you were working full time (PAUSE) do you think that would change your decision or the pacing of your decision?

CLIENT: Probably.

THERAPIST: Okay. So my guess is that’s where the counselor is calling you out.

CLIENT: I think so.

THERAPIST: And you aren’t, you know... Whatever you’ve made internally, that’s not a decision you’re ready or wanting to share this early. But it sounds like not only the counselor but it sounds like Mary is also pushing for a decision.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:16:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, and I get, in her world, that this is, you know...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...hugely unexpected and... But really not.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I mean, we’ve had some conversations over the last week that just like, “Wow. Really?” You know, it was like...

THERAPIST: Meaning?

CLIENT: Oh, you know, I think that she’s felt for years that I’m going to leave her. And it’s like, “Well...” (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Well, what?

CLIENT: You know, whatever. You know, I was shut down and couldn’t communicate and she was shut down and couldn’t communicate. So we’re like... (LAUGHTER) One of us... You know, if one of us would’ve had a stick and like been able to knock the other one around, maybe... I don’t know. But I’m like... (PAUSE) I have a friend who’s kind of a mutual friend of the family. But I know that over time, you know, this friendship has gotten a little deeper than probably what most people would expect.

THERAPIST: You and this friend or she and this friend? [00:17:07]

CLIENT: Me and this friend.

THERAPIST: Okay. So it’s, you know, a choir member’s wife who’s an elementary teacher in the parochial school, attached to the school or to the church and, you know, we share some common interests. We like gardening. Whatever. We’re Abraham Lincoln buffs. You know, so common interests in, you know, we enjoy sharing those interest back and forth. Well, I know it’s been a point, you know, that... I don’t have an emotional relationship with my wife. But I have an emotional relationship with this person. So there’s a rub there.

THERAPIST: With Mary?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And there always has been...

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: ...you know, kind of thing. And I get that. You know, but it’s like... (PAUSE) But she was sure that that was a sexual relationship and I’m like... [00:17:55]

THERAPIST: So she’s sure you’ve been having an affair.

CLIENT: So it’s like...

THERAPIST: Did you know that? Did you know that that’s what she suspected?

CLIENT: No. No and I’m like, “Wow, wow.” And who knew all this time?

THERAPIST: So she thought you were having an affair and never said anything all this time.

CLIENT: And I’m like... So I mean that in itself is almost like... But, on the other hand, I from my chair was feeling like she and Lisa were having an affair anyway. So...

THERAPIST: Has that come up? (PAUSE)

CLIENT: (SIGH) You know, I have used the language that I feel like I’m the third person in a three person relationship. You know, it feels to me like I’ve been living in a house where there’s been an affair going on for seven years. [00:18:57]

THERAPIST: Have you asked?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Do you want to know?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: No. Okay. (PAUSE) This is a new state for you. You feel ganged up on...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...right, kind of pushed to the corner...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...you know, sad at the same time, defensive, you know, like you have to defend yourself and now you are being forced to make some decisions quickly.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I feel like... Hmm... You know, so... (PAUSE) I’m like, “Okay, I’m the guy, you know...” Okay. Both of us have been in this relationship for eight years like this and, you know, I’m the guy that broke first and I said, “I can’t do this anymore.” And, you know, that was like six or seven weeks ago. And it’s like, “Okay, you get exactly two more weeks to figure it out or you’re out.” It’s like... (PAUSE) (SIGH)

THERAPIST: Well, you know... And although I can appreciate you’re feeling like that, she can’t kick you out. Right? She can’t kick you out. [00:20:07]

CLIENT: Well, and I... (SIGH) I don’t want to go down this road but I know, I think the law in the state of Illinois says that she can’t kick me out...

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: ...if I don’t have a job and not supply me with any income.

THERAPIST: Well, she can’t kick you out because the two of you own the house together. This is not a domestic violence situation. Now, sometimes, you know, you would want your own space and I get that. Before you kind of give into to kind of feeling pressured to make a decision, keep a couple of things in mind. One, in your mind, from all the things we’ve been talking about, and kind of correct me if I’m wrong, you’ve made a decision. But you haven’t made a decision about the timing of revealing that decision. And now you’re being pushed into pushing your timeline up.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I get that, you know, actually having the reality of making a decision makes things a lot more clear.

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:20:59]

CLIENT: You know, so it’s like is this really what I want to do?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Is this really what I want to do?

THERAPIST: You thought you were going to have more time, you know... And, you know, it... How do I say this? Seeing several friends through their respective divorces, male friends, you know... I hate to even say this. But I want to prepare you in some ways for the ugliness that comes when the decision is made. You want it to be and expect it to be and, you know, many men do, you know, sometimes it’s a gender thing, not to generalize, but rational. But the breaking up of a twenty seven year marriage, there’s nothing rational about it. It’s a completely emotional experience. And your sadness and grieving... You know, I don’t know if you’re surprised by that. But there will be a lot of it because it means it’s an ending of who you thought you were, the things you said you wanted, the life you pictured for yourself, what do you do financially... You know, you came from a relatively secure financial position and your spouse is working. Now you have a lot to think about. [00:22:15]

You know, there... You have options. But now you have to consider them. And that’s something... In a six to eight week timespan, it’s huge. But before you panic, you don’t have to get out your house. You know, it might be comfortable, more comfortable if the two of you were living apart. But you don’t have to get out of your house. She can’t make you get out of your house. The two of you share the house. Right? So that doesn’t have to happen that way. You know, it’s something that, you know, a lot of times we say that when we feel hurt or angry and, in some ways, I get her perspective as well. “If you’re done, let’s just be done.” Right?

CLIENT: Right. [00:22:55]

THERAPIST: But it’s not that easy. It’s never going to be that easy. This is not going to be a quick process. It’s going to take probably the final kind of disentanglement, if that’s a word, is going to take a couple of years emotionally, assets, all that stuff. So sit in it for a while. Your emotions from last week to this week are different. Feeling this pressure, feeling ganged up on... I urge you to say, “I feel ganged up on. I felt like you’re not hearing me.” Right?

CLIENT: Yeah. And I was able to say that.

THERAPIST: Good. But it did force a conversation that you might not have had. Right? It may have called you out before you were ready about this decision. Right? But, in many ways, you are making, you are kind of internally, from what you’ve talked about, made a decision. You’re not ready to reveal it yet though. Is that correct?

CLIENT: (SIGH) I think so. I mean, you know, the... Again, the implications...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...are huge.

THERAPIST: Sure. It’s the logistics, the implications, all of that...

CLIENT: You know, it’s like... You know, I look at all of this over here and it’s like, “Alright. You know, to a certain degree, if I’m estranged from my kids... I’m already estranged from my kids. Just in speaking my truth, I’ve already estranged my kids.” [00:24:09]

THERAPIST: Is that true?

CLIENT: To one degree or another. You know, my middle son calls me and we talk and that relationship seems fairly stable. My youngest son, like, we never really talked all that much anyway, certainly phoning and texting... He’s super busy with what he’s doing. I don’t think that that really, you know... I think the relationship that’s the hardest is my daughter and, you know...

THERAPIST: Tell me about that.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, that I, you know... I was the apple of her eye kind of thing. So, you know, I know that that is greatly impacting my decision making process and like...

THERAPIST: How?

CLIENT: You know, because I will go there. I will go... It’s not worth all of the pain, you know, that she’s feeling. Or it’s not worth all the pain that, you know, it’s causing to everybody. [00:25:11]

THERAPIST: You mean to leave. But it’s there. You know, like all the pain, it’s there. You have uncovered what has always been there. It’s like counseling, right, where you don’t necessarily cause your clients pain but you often dig stuff up that’s there. So it’s there. Right? It’s... You know, this is not going to be undone. Right? So saying, “I’ve changed my mind. Let’s make it work.”

CLIENT: Oh yeah. You...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You can’t... It’s like... And I always get in that scenario...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...where it’s like, “Okay. Okay. So it’s not worth it. What do you got to do?” Well, you’ve just got to go back into the way it always was.

THERAPIST: No. What would you say to your daughter if you could?

CLIENT: I called her up and we had an hour and a half conversation. And I’m just like, you know, apologizing, “Sorry this is as difficult as it is. It’s hard for me to be in the place. But I, you know, I recognize, you know, years of not being open and honest and, you know...”

THERAPIST: Good for you. [00:26:15]

CLIENT: You know, I really tried to lay it all out there for her.

THERAPIST: And how did she receive it?

CLIENT: (SIGH) You know, she was able to say things, you know, that she’s hurt and upset that, you know, “I always knew when I was hurt and upset, you know, who I would go to. But, you know, now I’m hurt and upset and I don’t know who to go to, you know, because the guy I’m hurt and upset about is you.” So...

THERAPIST: No. This situation is hurting her.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: You know...

CLIENT: I know. I’ve taken a huge amount of the blame for this and I’m doing it. You know, I continue to buy into that story and I’m allowing that story to happen. [00:27:01]

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: (SIGH) I think ultimately it’s like deep down I don’t want to hurt anybody. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Seamus, the situation is hurting people.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: You are not hurting people. You know, a couple of things as I see... You know, I know how painful this is. I know how painful this is not only looking at you and hearing it. But I know how painful it is because I lived it. It’s not the same situation. But I definitely lived it. You’re having an open dialogue with your daughter who’s struggling and you’re struggling. It’s not where you start the dialogue. It’s the process of the dialogue. And it’s hard. But the fact that you’re having a dialogue and now the whole family will struggle with figuring out what this means and who we are as a family. But the process of the dialogue and the fact that you care enough to have the dialogue and to communicate, right, you know, you have to in some ways trust the process. [00:28:05]

Right? You know, you can tell her and your son, “This is painful. Right? I can’t live this way anymore, right, but this is painful. I don’t want to be doing this. But this is not a truthful existence.” However you explain it... And you can hear what she has to say. But the fact that you’re communicating about it... You can’t change the fact that it’s painful for her. But you can’t change the fact that it’s painful for you either. Oh my. I still remember how just watching my parents go through all this pain and then we’re in pain. My older brother’s at school. My younger brother and I are at home. My parents are splitting up. And it was a whole painful family existence. Right? And it was rocky. I won’t tell you it wasn’t rocky for a while. However, my relationship with both of my parents and every relationship is different definitely, you know, got worked through. And it’s because you love your children. You love them enough to have a dialogue with them. Right? And so taking all the blame on yourself is not honest because this is not a situation of finger pointing. [00:29:11]

That’s not honest. It’s a situation that, you know, we... You know, this didn’t work. Here are some reasons why it didn’t work. But it’s not all Seamus’ fault. Seamus is the one who said, “It’s not working for me anymore.”

CLIENT: And he’s... You know, and the comeback is, “And he’s also the guy who’s not willing to put any energy into making it work again.”

THERAPIST: Well, maybe. Maybe not.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right? I mean, this is what you and Mary are in the process of deciding. But taking all the blame on yourself, one, it’s dishonest. It’s completely dishonest. Right? You know, from everything we’ve talked about, this marriage hasn’t been a healthy marriage for a really long time. Right? It’s just that you’re not willing to live with it anymore. That does not make you the bad guy. It’s easier in some ways if you take the brush and you paint yourself as the bad guy because then you have some control over the things that are happening. “Seamus’ the asshole. Seamus’ the bad guy.” [00:30:09]

But it’s not the truth. Right? That’s why people do it because, in some ways, it gives you the control. You can say, “I’m sorry for causing you pain.” You can take it onto yourself and you think you’re making it easier. But that’s just as dishonest as living in a relationship that you don’t want to be in.

CLIENT: Hmm. Interesting.

THERAPIST: It’s not the truth. You know, and I have many conversations with my parents. Right? My dad was probably willing to be a little more honest than my mom. My mom was like, “Some of it’s your business and a lot of it’s not.” But I wanted to know what happened. You know, why did this happen? I wanted to know for myself. I wanted to know for my interest as a budding counselor. I wanted to know... I think that’s why I’m so interested in couples and write about couples and do couples counseling. And I wanted to know for myself before I got married, right, what happened. And my perspective on my parents’ separation because they never got divorced, right... [00:31:07]

What has changed over time, right, from my late teens to early twenties, to my early forties where I am now, my perspective has changed. Right? But my relationship with my parents, my ability to talk to them about it and to kind of look at it and to even see how their relationship changed over time, you know, has been a developmental, in some ways, healthy experience. But you can’t do that if it’s not honest. Right? Stop taking all the blame. It’s not... You’re lying. It’s just another lie. Take the parts that belong to you.

CLIENT: I think I’m trying to stay with that. But that’s, you know... So I try to stay in my, you know, part. [00:31:55]

THERAPIST: Sure, sure.

CLIENT: But that’s the only story that gets heard.

THERAPIST: Your story or...

CLIENT: That, you know... The narrative becomes, “You shut down in this marriage.”

THERAPIST: Okay. Well...

CLIENT: And I keep trying... You know, it’s like, “Yeah. But, you know, from my side of the couch, what it felt like is you shut down.”

THERAPIST: You both shut down.

CLIENT: Yeah. We both shut down.

THERAPIST: Well that was the contract.

CLIENT: And I’m like, “Let’s not do the blame thing here.”

THERAPIST: Well, you both shut down. That’s the contract. That’s how you were able to stay together this long. That’s the contract. If you don’t talk about the serious things and we don’t look how broken it is, we just, you know, continue to live our lives this way. And that was the agreed upon contract for a long time. Right? And now you’re looking at the contract and you don’t like the contract anymore. Well, people can change their minds about the terms of the agreement. It’s just painful. And you can always say it’s painful. Right? You know, “Your mother is not the bad person. I’m not the bad person. It stopped working. It stopped working for many, many reasons. You know, it stopped working.” [00:32:57]

You can decide, Seamus, if you want to go all out and give it a try. And you can communicate honestly through the whole thing and say, “I’m trying. It doesn’t feel right,” or, “I’m trying. It feels dishonest,” or, “I’m going to give it a try. Right? But my trying may not look like how you want it to look.” (PAUSE) Right? It’s... You’re in the painful, the most painful part of it. But if you continue to point the finger at yourself and say it’s all Seamus’ fault, that doesn’t... You think it’s helpful in the beginning because it allows you to have a measure of control. But it’s really not helpful because it’s not true. You know, we can’t go back to that falseness of it’s all Seamus’ fault. Yes, you shut down. And she shut down too because that’s what people do when they get hurt. You know, if you think about it, you’ve been shut down for years to protect yourself. You know, she shut down by seeking Lisa and you shut down by becoming solitary. (PAUSE) It’s not easy. How are you doing with all of what I just said? [00:34:03]

CLIENT: Oh, I’m with you on it. Really, I am. You know? I continued to get to this place of like... (PAUSE) You know, and is it just anger? Is it the little boy who’s just too hurt, you know, to get beyond the place of like, “I don’t care.” You know, it’s like... I can’t bring myself to want to put the work into it to make it work.

THERAPIST: It could be you’re just done.

CLIENT: You know, because it’s like (SIGH) I know that she’s up here, trying to hang onto just, you know, the bare threads of the relationship. And it’s like, “Well, maybe if that was really the only issue.” But then it’s like, you get underneath the surface and it’s like... I’m like trying to imagine what my life looks like, you know, staying and moving forward in that relationship. And it’s just like, “My gosh.” [00:35:01]

THERAPIST: My gosh what?

CLIENT: I just... You know, it’s stifling. It’s claustrophobic. It’s, you know... I can’t imagine, you know, how we, you know, we figure that out. You know, and is it just my lack of desire? Is it just my hurt? You know? And, again, you know, have we processed that? Does it feel like I’m really just reacting from a place of, you know, just being angry and hurt? Maybe it is. But I’m like... It doesn’t change the fact that that’s what I feel.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And what I feel is... What I keep saying and it doesn’t... Nobody wants to hear it. And I get that. It’s not a popular thing to say. I haven’t got anything. You know? [00:35:57]

THERAPIST: The emotional well is dry.

CLIENT: And I’m supposed to, you know, I’m supposed to sign up. I’m supposed to stay signed on to that. And I’m like... And just trust that if you do that in good faith, it all comes back.

THERAPIST: Well, I don’t know about that. I don’t know that that’s where you have to trust. You know? Whatever you choose to do. Okay. Let’s say you decide, you and Lisa decide, “Okay. I’m going to give this six months. Okay. Or I’m going to give this four months or whatever and I’m going to try,” but you’re honest throughout the trying. Some days trying... You know, I do a lot of couples work. And some days, it’s absolutely hopeless and the hopelessness that I feel... And I’m not talking about you and Lisa specifically...

CLIENT: Mary. But that’s okay.

THERAPIST: Mary. Why do I keep saying Lisa? Oh my goodness.

CLIENT: Well...

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) Where did that come from? You know, but... You feel the hopelessness of the couple and it’s palpable. And you think, “Oh my. You know, I’m not doing any good. This is not doing any good.” And then something shifts. Okay? [00:37:07]

If nothing shifts, you and Mary have an answer. Right? So you’re not telling me you’re ready to move out tomorrow. Right? That this... You know, you’re also saying, “I don’t know if I have the emotional energy to do this.” But you still got to do something, I think for yourself, I think for yourself, I think for your kids. You have to do something. Whatever the something is, you have to do something. Whether it’s you can commit to going to couples counseling once a week, right, and saying your truth there. Whether it’s you’re trying positive psychology. It doesn’t matter if you feel a hundred percent in or two percent in or five percent in, right, you’re just going to kind of observe the process. “How much do I have? Does it change for you?” Because, in your changing, Mary is changing too. She’s already changed. Right? She’s already changed to accept the possibility that this might not work. Right? [00:38:01]

And her reaction is, “Get out.” Right? Even though you feel that and you feel the neediness. So you have to decide for yourself even if you don’t have the emotional energy, what do you need... If the end result is you’re going to go, what do you need to going away that takes care of you that you are not stabbing yourself to death? (PAUSE) You know, I... You know, my own parents, you know, said they were separating, then nothing happened for months and then my mom kicked him out. I remember because my dad was downstairs helping me with my homework and we heard this crash and she was taking all his stuff out to the car. And, as a seventh grader, I didn’t really... I was very pissed at her. But, as a grown up, I realized... I kind of get it. “You’ve said you’re separating. One person doesn’t want to separate. The other person’s like, ‘Look, you’ve got to go because I need some self-protection here.’“ Right? [00:39:01]

And they separated and then they did some marriage counseling. And then they decided to try again so they moved back in. Right? And it didn’t work and this time my father left. Right? And although they left... I was very active with both parents. I stayed with both. My brother and I stayed with one one week and then the other. So they were always both involved. But it took them a while to figure out what is going to look like. And it was tense for a while. And then we figured out what it was going to look like. Right? But it wasn’t clean. It’s not going to be clean. You’re not packing up leaving tomorrow.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I can’t move back down.

THERAPIST: No. (PAUSE) No. Not today. You can’t see that today and maybe never. But it certainly can’t be by force.

CLIENT: Yeah. Because that’s what it feels like right now.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It feels like it’s by force.

THERAPIST: The kids are coming back to stay with you over the summer? Is that what the issue is? (PAUSE) Yeah. Okay. [00:40:03]

And tell me... Are you staying in one of their rooms?

CLIENT: My daughter who’s not living with us anymore.

THERAPIST: Okay. And so she’s not coming back for the summer. Okay. So what might that picture look like for you?

CLIENT: I don’t have a problem with it. But evidently it’s a big problem for her. You know, it’s like, “Okay. I just sleep up here.” But I get the fact that, yeah, it’s making me comfortable but it’s not making her comfortable.

THERAPIST: Nobody’s going to be comfortable. You’re not going to be any more comfortable sleeping in that bed than she. It’s an appearance and the appearance has been blown wide open. Right? So moving back down there is not going to change a thing. It’s just going to mean you’re angry and resentful. Right? You know, that... You know, maybe one day you decide to move back down and give it a shot. But that’s not today and maybe you never decide that. But that can’t be forced. It’s not going to work. It’s not going to happen. [00:41:01]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And I feel like, you know, if the pressure keeps up on the other issue, then I feel like, then it puts me in a place where I’m not making rational decisions. Then I feel like I’m a trapped animal.

THERAPIST: Well, sure. But I think you can be clear about that and say, “Look. Pressuring me and making ultimatums doesn’t help. And I’m not moving out. I’m not ready for that yet. You know, that’s not going to work. Right, this is a process and it’s going to take some time.” And, you know, everybody has angry and hurt feelings. The public face of the marriage has been blown up. The private... The kids know. The private face has been blown up.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:41:57]

THERAPIST: There’s no more keeping up appearances. It’s no more about keeping appearances. That’s kind of done. You know, so moving back down to the marriage bed, it doesn’t change anything. It makes everybody uncomfortable.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You know, so she can’t make you leave. And I’m saying that because you’re going to feel pressure to leave because you’re taking on the role of, “I’m the asshole who’s making all this...”

CLIENT: Yeah. (SIGH)

THERAPIST: But that’s not true. She can’t make you leave. It’s just going to be uncomfortable. But it will be uncomfortable no matter what you did. We’re in the range of uncomfortable. If you decided, “Yes. I’m going to give this one hundred percent,” it’d still be uncomfortable as hell. It’d still be painful as hell.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. (PAUSE) Yeah. (SIGH) (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: This really sucks, doesn’t it?

CLIENT: Pretty much.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: But, again, I need to be in the story of this is not all my fault.

THERAPIST: It is not. Do you remember what you called the story last week?

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:43:01]

THERAPIST: What was the name?

CLIENT: Two kids riding the train.

THERAPIST: Two wounded kids driving the train. Right? So two wounded kids. Nobody has more power whatever it feels like. Are driving the train and kids don’t drive well... So the train crashed.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right? So it’s not her fault and it’s not your fault and two people contributed to this relationship. Right? There are lots of faults to go around but that doesn’t make the picture any clearer. Yes. Could you have been more open? Yes. Could she have been more open? Could she have worked on her sexual abuse? I mean, there are so many factors here that it’s really not that simple. Stop contributing to the story that Seamus the asshole shut down and now he’s leaving because that is not the truth, it’s not helping you, it’s not helping her, it’s not helping anyone. [00:43:55]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. (PAUSE) Yeah. So and then I need a narrative for (PAUSE) “But you’re not willing to jump back into this either.”

THERAPIST: Well, you’re not. You know? You’re not. She wasn’t willing, in some ways, to kind of continue working on sexual abuse issues because she’s not. And some of it is because she’s probably not capable. It’s too deeply painful. It’s too threatening. She couldn’t and she can’t. But you’re still committed to going to counseling and you’re not leaving the house. You know... You are communicating with her. And strangely, you are communicating more than you ever have.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. We know that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. So you’re not trying in the way that she thinks trying looks and that you think trying looks. But you haven’t left either and you haven’t said it’s over either. You know, she can say that too. It’s not just your decision, Seamus. [00:45:03]

You know, so when the counselor’s like, “You need to make a decision,” no, it’s kind of a two people decision. Right? It’s... Lisa could say, “I’m done.”

CLIENT: Mary. But that’s okay.

THERAPIST: Why... I’ve... It’s always been Mary. (LAUGHTER) Where did I get Lisa from?

CLIENT: Well, I threw Lelena in there. It’s my friend who...

THERAPIST: Lelena your friend. Oh there’s a Freudian slip.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: That’s where Lisa came from.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Sorry. Two L names.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:45:27)

THERAPIST: Yeah. I don’t want you to listen to that on tape.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: You know, it’s two people’s decision. Don’t... And so, when you hear that, say, “Hold up. Hold up here.” Right? That’s not honest. Okay. “I’m the person who definitely introduced the idea that I can’t continue in this way. But the two of us have a decision to make here.” You don’t have to leave that house. It’s just more uncomfortable, right, especially since you don’t have anywhere to go and it’s your house. The two of you have that house. [00:46:03]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You buy into the, “You’re an asshole. It’s my fault. You’re leaving.” Right? Then you’re going. It’s true. You’ll figure out a way and you’ll go and it don’t know that that’s the most honest way of dealing with it.

CLIENT: That’s what I’m feeling and it’s like, “Don’t back me into that place. Don’t back me into that story.”

THERAPIST: Yeah. Don’t allow yourself to be backed into the place. Right?

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: You don’t have to allow yourself to be... You can be honest and say, “I’m feeling backed in and I’m not going to stay backed in. Right? I’m not. I’m not ready. I’m not ready. Or this is not what I want.” You can understand why Mary wants a decision. I completely get that. In some ways, it’s a fair question but that’s not where you’re at. And if you don’t have the financial resources and that’s not where you’re at, that’s not going to happen. [00:47:01]

You know, she could also decide to go. Right? So I’m... You know, expect it to be messy and ugly and painful. You’re touching it but you’re not in that part yet. You’re in the uncomfortable part, the hurting part, the grieving part. But then there’s the angry part and the, you know, all of those kind of ugly little parts. They’re there. They’re always there. (PAUSE) So don’t let yourself be backed into the corner. Just don’t go in the corner. Say, “I’m not going in that corner.” (PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. (PAUSE) Well, I feel like, yeah, whatever the outcome of this is, I’ve clearly made it enough of a case that going back is no longer a possibility.

THERAPIST: Going back to what was will never happen. Right? But we don’t know what is. We just... You know, we talked before about putting the nuclear option on the table. [00:48:09]

It’s like World War II, you know, where it’s been destroyed and you’re in the middle of the wreckage. Right? The two of you have crashed the train. Now what? Is there something? Right now, you don’t know. You can’t touch that there’s something. And maybe there’s nothing. Right? But we don’t know yet because it’s still too soon. Right? And what trying looks like today doesn’t look like tomorrow. Right? Trying can just be saying good morning every day. That can be what trying looks and feels like to you because that’s all you’ve got and that has to be okay because that’s all you’ve got. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And we’ll see what happens with that because I... (PAUSE) My gut level feeling is that that’s not going to be accepted very well. [00:49:07]

THERAPIST: I don’t think so. But, you know, none of this is easily acceptable because you guys want two different things. Right? This is not a... This is a lose lose temporarily. We’re in a temporarily lose lose. It feels like a zero sum game. Right? But it’s more complicated than that. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: (SIGH)

THERAPIST: Right? So I guess I would say stand in your truth and your honesty about accept responsibility for the things, for yourself. But don’t accept responsibility for the stuff that’s not yours. (PAUSE) None of this is easy. It’s pretty fucking shitty. [00:49:57]

CLIENT: Yeah. It is. So... (SIGH) Yeah.

THERAPIST: And Seamus, don’t forget. If you have to... Is your business completely dissolved?

CLIENT: Pretty much.

THERAPIST: Right. But if you had to make a living...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You don’t think so?

CLIENT: It’s complicated.

THERAPIST: Sure it is.

CLIENT: It’s complicated because the situation that I’ve worked out. Transitioning out of that business, the boys that used to work for me, you know, are running my tools and my shop for me.

THERAPIST: I get it. You know. But, you know, you could think about working for them. You could think about teaching part time.

CLIENT: Oh, I know. There’s a lot of different options.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And clearly, if I get to that place where it’s like there appears to be no other solution than for me to move and, again, I’m hearing what you’re saying... You know, but...

THERAPIST: Quietly make inquiries because all it does is give you ideas of options. Then you feel less backed into a corner. [00:51:07]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because right now it feels like, “I don’t have a job. She’s got all the financial resources and you’re going to school.” You have always been able to take care of yourself and your family. That’s not going to change. It’s a messy time. Quietly make inquiries. A little bit here, a little bit there. Because then you are lining up logistics should you need to line them up. (PAUSE) You know, in some ways, it’s scary. But it’s more empowering. You’re not taken by surprise if things get ugly, you can’t stand it, then you have options because you have some plans in place. And if you don’t need to exercise them, fine.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I probably need to exercise them anyway. You know, I probably... Even if we stay together, it’s like, “Well, yeah.” You know, this makes sense for me to be... [00:52:05]

You know, I was counting on the business to supply some income, you know, some part time income to this endeavor while I was doing it anyway. That doesn’t seem to be working out. So I need to be... I need to be doing something anyway. I get that.

THERAPIST: Remember. You always (inaudible at 00:52:21) well. You know, so it’s complicated. It’s stressful. It’s painful. But you always reinvent yourself very, very well. You have options.

CLIENT: Yeah. I have options and I don’t have to operate from the scarcity mentality.

THERAPIST: That’s right.

CLIENT: And I know that. So...

THERAPIST: You’ve got many options. You can stay there. You can stay with a friend for a while. You can get a job and go... I mean, just think through your options because far... Less than it being scary, it becomes more about planning. And this isn’t a plan you have to kind of share with anybody. You can kind of...

CLIENT: Right. [00:53:05]

THERAPIST: ...just do it quietly so that you are prepared whatever happens. It’s a way of taking care of yourself.

CLIENT: And a friend told me, you know, and keeps calling me. It’s like, “Have you gone and seen a lawyer yet? Have you gone and seen a lawyer yet?”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: “No. I have not.”

THERAPIST: Well, you know, that may be on the list but it doesn’t have to be first on the list. Right? It’s not bad advice. But livelihood, of course emotional health, livelihood, lawyer, maybe even in that order...

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s hard.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It’s a lot.

CLIENT: It’s a lot.

THERAPIST: How are you doing right now?

CLIENT: (SIGH) I think I’m doing okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I think I’m doing okay. It’s just like... You know, I didn’t need the good news of like it’s only going to get worse before it gets better.

THERAPIST: Sorry. [00:53:57]

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, like I’m living in a kind of fairy tale world or something.

THERAPIST: I don’t think that you are. You know, I don’t think that you are. But I want you to be prepared. Right? In some ways, I think that... And I’ve seen this with many of my friends. They... Good men who care about their wives but it’s not working, who want it to go better than it does because they want low conflict and it doesn’t typically work that way. It just doesn’t have to absolutely wrench you and destroy you in the process. You know, and that happens in some ways by preparing yourself. You know, and I don’t want you to be unprepared.

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) (SIGH) Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, but this is not... This is not Seamus the asshole who started this. You know, it was going to come to this point at a certain point in time probably for you it could have happened ten years ago. It could have happened ten years from now. As long as you were going to decide you weren’t willing to pretend anymore and you can’t... It was killing you. It was killing you. [00:55:11]

You know, remind me. One day I’ll give you some of those early sessions. It was killing you.

CLIENT: Yeah. I know. I know. And I wouldn’t have been in here if it wasn’t. So...

THERAPIST: Right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Will you keep me posted? If something happens and you need to get in touch with me, right, e-mail me. I’ll call you.

CLIENT: Yeah. I will. I will. Are we on for...

THERAPIST: Our regular time.

CLIENT: Now, I... I, you know, get, you know, the reality of this, you know... There’s going to have to be a termination at some point.

THERAPIST: Well, there is and there isn’t. There is... There will definitely be a temporary break as I, you know, go into labor. I am here... Let’s see. There’s one Tuesday we’re moving. So there’s one Tuesday I’m taking off. But I am here until I go into labor. (LAUGHTER) [00:56:05]

So that could be anywhere into August.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And then after I take off probably about twelve weeks, then I’m back. Right? So, you know, so we’ll have a break. It doesn’t... You know, as long as you’re a student here, I can see you.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: So, you know, and I have... You know, the nice thing about our motto here is that we do have the ability to do long term counseling. So don’t worry about that.

CLIENT: Okay. No I just...

THERAPIST: You’re taking summer classes, right?

CLIENT: Yeah. I think. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I hope so. Oh yeah. The amount of stuff that’s gone on in the last eight weeks is just...

THERAPIST: Unreal.

CLIENT: ...mind boggling.

THERAPIST: Mind boggling is a good word for it.

CLIENT: So...

THERAPIST: Check in with me if you need to please.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I... Yeah. I got into a couple places where it was just...

END TRANSCRIPT