TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Thanks.

THERAPIST: Sure. Well, I'm sorry I forgot.

CLIENT: It's okay.

THERAPIST: I guess I do reserve the right to be a little inconsistent about things like that but I do feel bad for forgetting.

CLIENT: You can be inconsistent.

THERAPIST: I mean, like... I mean, sometimes it's a mistake but also because (inaudible at 00:00:37) at different times.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Like answering me seems... Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I remember the first time I asked you being really important so...

(PAUSE) [00:01:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess it was something really important that maybe didn't feel important to you. (PAUSE) And you also reserve the right to forget.

THERAPIST: Yes. Of course I will forget. But I'll try not to.

CLIENT: It seems important to me that we hug sometimes.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: How do you feel about that?

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I'll tell you how I feel but tell me more what you think.

CLIENT: Umm.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:01:57)

(PAUSE) [00:02:00]

CLIENT: Alright. That's kind of like a hug.

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: I think there's a lot... (PAUSE) I don't have words for it. It seems not sexual and important and it seems like a connection that we're unable to make without... (PAUSE) ...without it.

THERAPIST: Hmm. Of what sort?

CLIENT: Umm... (PAUSE) Like in showing each other that we understand and we care and that it's really hard and that we want each other to feel supported and safe and loved. [00:03:15]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: All those things can't be accomplished without physical touch. But it's doesn't seem... (PAUSE) (inaudible at 00:03:49)

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I guess I...

(PAUSE) [00:04:00]

THERAPIST: I think it may not be a good idea or I guess... (inaudible at 00:04:15) It's not that I don't want to give you a hug or in another context that I would hesitate for a second to give you a hug. (PAUSE) But... (SIGH) (inaudible at 00:04:39)

CLIENT: I agree. (PAUSE) I thought that I should tell you that it feels important. (inaudible at 00:04:51)

(PAUSE) [00:05:00]

THERAPIST: I guess I am concerned when I imagine that you'll (inaudible at 00:05:15)

CLIENT: Yeah. It does. But it also reinforces how solid you are.

THERAPIST: Let's go back to the rejecting part.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:05:49) is not... Okay. Um... (PAUSE) I understand you feel rejecting. It isn't a rejection. Is that clear?

CLIENT: Mm hmm. [00:06:05]

THERAPIST: Okay. Alright. (inaudible at 00:06:09)

CLIENT: Umm...

THERAPIST: It's not surprising that it feels that way. I want to make sure (inaudible at 00:06:11)

CLIENT: Well, it has to do with why it (inaudible at 00:06:19) you are because it means that you're rejecting the role of this in one way and you're confirming it in another way. So you're... (PAUSE) You're not trying to make me feel good in the short term and that feels rejecting because you can make me feel good in the short term and you're not doing it. [00:07:01]

You're not trying to make me feel good in the short term and that also feels accepting, committed.

THERAPIST: Like I'm not being swayed by what you want because I don't think it's as helpful.

CLIENT: And if you were swayed by what I wanted, I might reconsider coming back.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I might also not reconsider coming back. I don't know. It wasn't a test but... (PAUSE) If I find that I can convince you to do something that you don't think is a good idea, that's very powerful for me and it sets a precedent.

(PAUSE) [00:08:00]

CLIENT: But that's... I mean, if you thought it was a good idea, than that still might not be good. That might be bad. That might be a bad sign.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Umm...

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: It seems to you like I'm not focusing on the important, something important?

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I guess I feel a little confused. I had the impression you were asking me but maybe you weren't. [00:09:03]

CLIENT: I was telling you and I wanted to know how you felt about it.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: Your response was appropriate. I wasn't... I was asking for your opinion. (PAUSE) Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think you don't want to feel rejected but you do on another thing. (PAUSE) It seems to me the sort of thing that's come up in other times that you move away from very quickly.

(PAUSE) [00:10:00]

THERAPIST: But might feel when you're not here or be surprised by it sometimes.

CLIENT: Umm... (PAUSE) Like what other times?

THERAPIST: Like when we switched from twice to once a week or when it looked like the insurance wasn't going to work or, to some extent, what happened after we stopped meeting in November (ph).

CLIENT: Mm hmm.

(PAUSE) [00:12:00]

CLIENT: I don't know. I'm thinking.

THERAPIST: Sure.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I think I favor the hard road. (PAUSE) Like the hard road being getting myself to be okay with these rejections. This doesn't really feel like a rejection but it does feel... I mean, it does in some sense.

(PAUSE) [00:13:00]

THERAPIST: Wait a minute. (PAUSE) I would think the getting used to the things that feel like, the would involve feeling them here.

CLIENT: Yeah. You would, wouldn't you?

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Yes. I would.

(PAUSE) [00:14:00]

CLIENT: No. That's not how I get used to them. (PAUSE) I think I like bulldoze over them.

THERAPIST: I believe you do. That doesn't quite jibe with the notion of getting used to it as far as I can tell. (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) I didn't use the word "getting used to." Did I?

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I think you did.

(PAUSE) [00:15:00]

THERAPIST: You said... It was interesting actually. You said, "I like to take..." I think you said, "I like to take the hard road."

CLIENT: I favor.

THERAPIST: "I favor taking the hard road getting used to these rejections. Well, this isn't a rejection. But..."

CLIENT: I think I favor... (PAUSE) ...like seeing the bright side or something or like seeing how it could be good. [00:15:59]

THERAPIST: I think your both the hard road metaphor and the bulldozer metaphor, to me, point toward you doing some (inaudible at 00:16:25) your feelings of being rejected which I imagine you do because I think at some level you feel I will like you less otherwise.

CLIENT: I think you will like me more if I (inaudible at 00:16:57) is what I really think. [00:17:03]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: If I like sit down and think about it but maybe there is an inconsistency in how I act or feel or think.

THERAPIST: I will like you as well either way. But... Right. I think there's a kind of... (PAUSE) (inaudible at 00:17:43) to do with not feeling these particular feelings (inaudible at 00:17:55) or maybe because you'll be a mess or...

CLIENT: Yeah. Maybe. [00:18:03]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I think what I was saying yesterday about how you don't make fun of me or push me around in front of me might be important for why I don't feel like, or why I don't release here.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Like if I know I'm going to be met with sensitivity and kindness and silence, that's much scarier than being met with humor or... (PAUSE) Yeah. And maybe that's...

(PAUSE) [00:19:00]

CLIENT: I don't think you should change how you are with me but maybe that say something to how I'm used to being dealt with and how bad feeling (inaudible at 00:19:17)

THERAPIST: Yeah. Maybe a little about how you deal with your own sometimes.

CLIENT: Mm hmm. (PAUSE) My dad used to slap us when we were children.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And I don't think it's important.

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:19:49) I was like, "Oh, that's the sort of thing people talk about in therapy." But I was afraid of what you would do, if you would ask me questions about it. [00:20:01]

THERAPIST: I will. Umm... (PAUSE) Like when?

CLIENT: Oh, like when I wouldn't stop persisting or when I would like being foul mouthed or smart assed and when I was being disrespectful to elders. And I think I was, you know, just six, seventh grade. It didn't happen that often.

THERAPIST: You don't talk much about being bad.

(PAUSE) [00:21:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. I think that is really bad.

THERAPIST: Oh really?

CLIENT: I don't know. My mom said that she was like, sometimes she was surprised that I'm related, I was related in that preteen, teenage years. I can't tap into that at all. I don't remember why.

THERAPIST: She wasn't bad like about the idea that she thought she was so different?

CLIENT: She... Or like the idea that I'm her daughter.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Yeah. No. She wasn't bad. She was pretty square and straight and pious.

THERAPIST: You not so much, huh?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: I mean, I don't know. What counts as bad? [00:22:05]

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) Certainly what you and your mother were thinking about.

CLIENT: Like what would cause my dad to slap me kind of bad or...

(CROSSTALK)

THERAPIST: Whatever she saw as like... I mean, I have the impression she felt it was a little too far (inaudible at 00:22:41) was clear that you were not.

CLIENT: I think I was very lewd and I think I was not very respectful for a few years, like sort of ashamed of my parents and my family and being Indian and like wanting so much that my parents would be like other peoples' parents and like not really wanting to associate with them. I mean, most people feel that way at some point. [00:23:17]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I'm not surprised you're this way because it's so unusual for people to be this way but it's never come up and when you talk about a lot of this kind of stuff, it's always been very positive terms.

CLIENT: I don't know. Like I...

THERAPIST: I'm mostly just surprised I didn't know or like (inaudible at 00:23:59) I'm not saying it seems like (inaudible at 00:24:09) or something. [00:24:11]

CLIENT: I smoked cigarettes and smoked weed and drank and drove while being under the influence and had a couple of boyfriends over in the middle of the night like on my parents' lawn. That sort of thing. It was very... It would have been very bad for my parents because they think that drugs are immoral and don't really have much tolerance for alcohol so they don't know that much about drinking in excess and what that is and why people do it. [00:25:03]

THERAPIST: How old were you when you did that stuff?

CLIENT: Sixteen and seventeen.

THERAPIST: I mean, it sounded more like high school kind of stuff but you referred to preteen (inaudible at 00:25:17)

CLIENT: I think I had attitude at that point.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't know... (PAUSE) ...how much bad stuff I did. But I think I was pretty rebellious and pretty rude. (PAUSE) And just like why, why, why not, why? Why won't you give me a hug? [00:26:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I'm smiling because what I was thinking is that side I see here. "What the hell Josh? Why?"

CLIENT: Don't you want it?

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Umm... (inaudible at 00:26:41) talking about some things from my life or lying down or wearing business casual clothes.

CLIENT: Not wearing business casual clothes. [00:26:59]

THERAPIST: Sorry.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:27:09)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:27:15) (PAUSE) I did not answer the question.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I don't think that I notice if I feel rejected. I don't think I'm actively pushing away. I don't think it comes to the surface. [00:28:09]

I can't tell if today will be a stairwell day.

(PAUSE) [00:29:00]

CLIENT: I think the boundaries are dumb.

THERAPIST: Okay. (PAUSE) My main point about them was (inaudible at 00:29:53) nothing to do with what I personally want. [00:29:59]

CLIENT: I think it's dumb. It makes this feel like a construct not two real people. (PAUSE) If you talked about how that might be hard for you, I think it would help. (PAUSE) But...

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: What matters to you is how I feel about. You want to know and if there's anything getting in the way of that, that's stupid, contrived.

(PAUSE) [00:31:00]

CLIENT: But I get it.

THERAPIST: I know.

CLIENT: I understand it. So what's the point of wallowing?

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: That's a pejorative way to put experiencing how you feel.

CLIENT: Yeah it is.

THERAPIST: I don't think you would sort of do that to a lot of other feelings you might have, brazenly insult them.

CLIENT: Brazenly insult them?

(PAUSE) [00:32:00]

CLIENT: I don't think it's... It doesn't feel good to feel the rejection feelings because I can't do anything about them, they make me feel weak... (PAUSE) ...and I guess I'm ashamed of them. This is me talking though. It's not like I have the feelings available and these are reasons why I'm not bringing them out. [00:33:09]

They don't feel like they're there but I think they are there. There's stuff getting in the way, I guess.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I wonder what there is to be ashamed about having feelings for someone and wanting to know how they feel back and...

(PAUSE) [00:34:00]

THERAPIST: ...feeling bad and kind of pushed away if they won't say.

CLIENT: It's because you don't feel those feelings. It feels lonely.

THERAPIST: Hmm. (PAUSE) I don't feel alone feelings, the rejected feelings?

CLIENT: The rejected feelings.

(PAUSE) [00:35:00]

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:35:03) Does that make sense (inaudible at 00:35:33)

THERAPIST: Yeah. I guess I imagine it's important because (inaudible at 00:35:45) and yet I'm not feeling it. In other words, you could come in here and be upset about something in your outside life and even if (inaudible at 00:35:57) and I'm not feeling that way, it (inaudible at 00:36:15) or I can't really (inaudible at 00:36:21)

CLIENT: But it just makes me feel really bad and lonely. I don't think it has anything to do with you or your capacity to be here with me. I think (inaudible at 00:36:37) (PAUSE) Also, if you were feeling them, if you like did have this experience with someone else, that would feel even worse?

THERAPIST: If I had which experience? [00:36:55]

CLIENT: Like if I were to come in here and talk about some other thing, some other (inaudible at 00:37:05) you might be able to relate because you went through it too at some point in your life.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: You might not tell me about it but maybe you would tell me about it. No, I don't think you would. Anyway, but that would be comforting. Whereas that thought in this case would be devastating. Yeah. So... (PAUSE) Yeah.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Devastating for me to have (inaudible at 00:28:03) feel rejected actually, to be accurate about it, by someone else? [00:38:09]

CLIENT: By another patient.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Yeah. Not by a non patient, I guess. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Not by a therapist or an analyst?

CLIENT: That one's tricky. That turns everything upside down. I think that would be comforting.

(PAUSE) [00:39:00]

CLIENT: Do you feel how this is different than (inaudible at 00:39:25)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:39:27)

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:39:29)

(PAUSE) [00:39:57]

CLIENT: You were saying (inaudible at 00:40:07) but I have to, like I have to keep the goal in mind and like we're here for a purpose and that purpose is threatened by acting on things that I want and it's really, really hard. But I like I'm committed to not acting on them or something." I don't know why that would help. But it would make it feel less lonely and it would feel more safe to describe my feelings. [00:41:07]

THERAPIST: We just have a few minutes.

CLIENT: That would be opposite. That was perhaps the most opposite thing you could say to what I was just describing and thinking as like what you could say to me.

THERAPIST: I was actually thinking (inaudible at 00:41:37) Can I put it off for a couple of minutes? And I was like, "Well, I guess I'm, you know..." (PAUSE) Well, I think I can appreciate how what you're saying is true. [00:42:09]

And I guess... (PAUSE) ...the first answer that occurs to me. I'll have to think about it but I think it might be. Is that part of the goal here involves not just to reassure you that your feelings are okay so you can talk about them but helping you to sort of become more confident that they're okay not just sort of locally in the immediate context but in general so you can have them when you want to. [00:43:15]

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:43:21)

CLIENT: I don't know if confidence excludes like needing the other person to be feeling that way too. Does that make sense? Are you saying that the confidence is threatened by...

THERAPIST: I'm saying that...

CLIENT: ...or like less successful or something? [00:43:59]

THERAPIST: ...if I sort of did something this (inaudible at 00:44:03) this central and important sort of say things or arrange things or like, "Well, it's because I feel that way too." Then it's okay for you to say what you were going to say.

CLIENT: Mm hmm.

THERAPIST: You know, that robs it of something, I think. I guess (inaudible at 00:44:41) as recently as a few minutes ago when I would be reassuring. But I guess that's different.

CLIENT: It is different. [00:44:57]

THERAPIST: I guess, in a way (inaudible at 00:45:01) my saying something to you like what you said so that you will then, so that it will be okay for you to say what you are going to say, is kind of colluding with the idea.

(CROSSTALK)

CLIENT: If you said it, I might notice the feelings more.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But now that we've talked about it, it's hard not to put a "so that" after.

THERAPIST: Right. I think in general that my (inaudible at 00:45:47) your feelings are more okay to talk about. That's more of a problem. I mean, you could say, "Look, I don't feel like it would be helpful to talk about these and I just don't want to unless I knew you felt the same way." [00:46:01]

But that's different. I don't think that's really what's going on.

CLIENT: No. This is like me trying to think of how I would, how the feelings would come to the surface more easily.

THERAPIST: Yeah. We should finish up for now.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I started walking up the stairwell before I walk down.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

(PAUSE) [00:47:00]

(PAUSE) [00:48:00]

(PAUSE) [00:49:00]

(PAUSE) [00:50:00]

(PAUSE) [00:51:00]

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