TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in. I could not remember, when we originally set up this appointment if you-because I had a time that came available in the afternoon but earlier, and I don't know if you'd be interested in that or if this is the earliest you can come.

CLIENT: What time is the other one?

THERAPIST: It would be ten to four.

CLIENT: Like 3:50.

THERAPIST: Yeah, 3:50.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm usually-I mean... That might actually be a little bit better.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Because I'd be then like coming here from work, I have to work to five, then go back to work since it's right here.

THERAPIST: Right here. Because I have that as a regular time open.

CLIENT: So I'm just thinking. Let's leave it 5:00 for now-or 5:30 for now.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And then let me double check with Amelia, because she has these events down at Amherst from 6:00 to 8:00 on Thursdays, speakers and stuff like that, and I need to look at the schedule and see if there's any of them that I want to go to, because if there are then I'll take the other time.

THERAPIST: Okay. It'll work out a little bit better for me, but it's not a big deal, this time is yours.

CLIENT: Oh, if it's better for you then we can do 3:50.

THERAPIST: Are you sure?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, because this time is yours, it's not like imperative or anything.

CLIENT: No, it's really not a big deal, we can just-if it's better for you we can move it earlier.

THERAPIST: Okay, great.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I'll also-you know, there's in that-in like three or four weeks I'm not here on a Thursday afternoon. [2:00]

CLIENT: That's fine. There's actually-November 14th we have the-that's today?

THERAPIST: Oh, there you go. Great timing.

CLIENT: We have the-an event, so.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah, let's say 3:50, and then I'll just double check with my boss, but it shouldn't be a problem because they're super flexible over there, so.

THERAPIST: Okay. Sounds good.

CLIENT: Yeah. And what's the next [unclear] day?

THERAPIST: It's a [unclear].

CLIENT: Yeah. At least for next week 3:50 works, and then if for some reason-

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: -it doesn't work we can talk about it next week.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: If that's okay with you.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: How are you doing?

CLIENT: Um, okay. Today-I have been feeling like really like down today. I don't really know why, I don't know if it's like PMS orBut I think like Thursdays, by the time Thursday rolls around it's kind of hard, because I just like don't see Amelia all week because her schedule is-I mean, she's gone like 12 hours, 13 hours a day Monday to Thursday. Friday's the only day that she actually comes home at five-like after five o'clock. And I think today-like I told you I just like don't like-don't particularly enjoy being by myself too much.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And at one of my-at the company where I work it's pretty much like I'm just there by myself because it's just this-it's like very quiet working space, there's only three of us, and a lot of times I'm the only one in the office anyway. And usually Tuesdays and Thursdays when I'm [unclear 3:41] I really look forward to it because I feel like it's much more of like a lively place to work and I have-I really get a life, like my friends there, and then I get to see the women. But today I was the only one from the development team in the office, and so it was just like a really-like they-everyone-we're up on the third floor with the executive director and all the development team-not all of them, there's three of us, but-and there was like nobody on the third floor today except for me, so I just like kind of lonely and by myself. And then I didn't-I like finished-there was like no-I haven't had-since I just started this new position with them I haven't really gotten to the point yet where I have like backburner projects, and so I had finished my tasks for this week and anything that I could possibly get ahead on. And it was like three, so I left, because they're not-you know, I'm on there at an hourly wage, so I'm not going to like sit there and get paid if I'm not doing anything. And next week's an easy week so it'll be-it'll actually work out better because I can just put in more hours next week and get paid for them instead of having to put in overtime for free. Plus I just like left at three and then went home, and I was just by myself all week and so I was just kinda lonely. [5:00]

And I like talked to Amelia about it a little bit ago, and it's just like she can't do anything because it's her schedule, you know, it's not like she's choosing to be-I mean, she likes being this busy, and sometimes I think like she likes it this way, but I-I mean, she can't like-she doesn't like being in class till nine o'clock at night three days a week. But yeah. And she's like, "Well, isn't there people you can go hang out with?" And that makes me feel like a little kid. I'm like, "Yeah, I have friends, but that's not a-" I don't want-I always feel like I'm looking for things to do to like fill my time while I wait for her. It is kind of a shitty feeling. So like I do a lot of cleaning and cooking. I'm the housewife, you know, who polishes-with the schedule that she has.

THERAPIST: It's a somewhat discontenting one.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't like-it's not-I'm like her, I like being that busy too. So I'm like jealous almost. I wish I was that busy.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [6:00]

CLIENT: And when I was in class like full time I could at least like-you know, I'd be on campus, I was with people. You know, I could like hang out, go to the gym at school, I was with my classmates all the time, I'd find someone to go hang out. And that's the thing, like most of my friends from-like I moved here to go to school, so most of my friends live out in Brickston, so I don't really have anyone like super locally that I could just call and be like, "Hey, you want to hang out for the afternoon?" So yeah, I just feel like I go through the mo[tions]-like I go for a run by myself. Which isn't really-like I'd rather being playing a team sport, you know, but I don't have one to play right now, so it's just like everything by myself this week.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I had dinner by myself again, I had dinner by myself last night. And it's like-I don't know, I just like being around people. I mean, I know, like I can't have like one of those cubicle jobs when I graduate, like I need to be-I don't like when I don't get to interface with people a lot throughout the day. So.

THERAPIST: So kind of like isolated.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. [pause] And like we do a good job in spending together on the weekends. But we pretty much go five days without really like spending quality time together. You know, like she comes-by the time she gets home and it's like between-it's sometime between 8:30 and 9:30, depending on which day it is. And then it's like, you know, hang out for like 45 minutes and then go to bed. And she leaves like before eight o'clock in the morning every single day. So yeah, I feel like isolated. And she's around people, it's her job to work with people, you know, so. [8:00]

THERAPIST: Is she-you answered this a little bit, like if she's intrinsically like this or this is more kind of circumstantial.

CLIENT: Yeah, and any time-like I have said to her before. Because she says it's circumstantial. Like, yeah, she likes to be busy, but not for 13 hours a day. Which I kind of believe, but then at the same time in the back of my head it's like, well, is this really going to change next year when we're not students anymore? Is she going to come home at like six? And her program-and what she was just saying, she's like her program is notorious for being very rigorous because it's a clinical-based program. So like they have to have their classes at night because they're getting clinical experience during the day. Which is great for her like professionally. It's wonderful, it's a great program. But I do wonder, like you know, is it really going to-you know. Because I'm still going to be the one that wants the house to be clean before I can relax, you know. So am I-you know, I don't really know if things are really going to change that much. And that's like our issue, is like who does-like I spend most-like I feel like a housewife.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And so far she said that it's circumstantial. Which, I don't know, there are times-like on the rare occasion when I'm actually busy and she's home, sure, she cleans-like she-you know, and she like gets excited because it's like her one chance to be like, "Look what I did!" So I can't say that she doesn't do that, if she were like in my position. But I wouldn't mind cleaning so much if she was like in the house and I cleaned around her. I don't know. I was going to say-like lonely, yeah, by myself.

And it's kinda been like that since Egypt, like since I got back from Egypt. Because I lived with my parents for a while, for like six months before we moved here, and our work schedules were opposite because I was waitressing. So I'd be home all day and then I'd be at work at night. But at least waitressing, like you're with people all the time. And my dog lives at my parents' house, so I like had a buddy. I'd like take her with me on my runs, and we're totally that family that talks to our dog like she's a normal person. It's kind of ridiculous. I caught my mom-not caught her, but I like saw it finally from the outside perspective. Like I rounded the corner, we were on the trip, and like saw my mom actually speaking to the dog. It was like, oh wow, that's what I look like when I do that. [10:30]

But here it's just like it's just me. I feel like if we had a puppy I would not be as like bummed about being by myself all the time. Or just something, I don't know. And I've been saying since we moved here I should find a rugby team to join and-but I don't know why I haven't. I think I'm nervous about that I'm not in rugby shape anymore. And knowing how cliquey my team was in college, like I would not have wanted to be an outsider coming in. And I think here like all the-because it's such a college town, Providence, all the teams just are whatever the college team was then everyone graduates and-so it's pretty much an extension of all their college teams. So I think I feel like-

THERAPIST: Maybe. People move around a lot after college, even here.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I may end up-who knows. I've been saying I should join a team for two years now. And it's easy for me during the winter to be like, "Oh yeah, I'm going to join a team in the springtime." But then when the spring comes I don't do it, I run away.

THERAPIST: Do you feel a piece of it is that you're isolating yourself, or at least not making enough efforts to be out? Or do you feel like-

CLIENT: I wonder if I'm doing that sometimes. [12:00]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But it's not that I want to be like out necessarily. Because I could, I could call-like if I wanted to tonight I could call one of my closer-like several of my good friends and probably go meet them, and like they could drink and I can sit there and watch and have a seltzer or something. But even before I had my stomach issues, if I could go drink-or we could go out and do something, you know. But that's not necessarily what I want either, because I have a-I've had long days at work too this week, and so I kinda just want to be home with who I consider my family like relaxing and unwinding, not by myself. Because there are some times when, yeah, I want to be out, and so I go out with my friends. But that's not every-you know, I don't want to do that every night. [pause] [13:00]

So I don't know. Because sometimes I am like, "Oh, am I not putting myself out there enough?" But that's not necessarily-I don't think that's the case. Because I do consider myself a social person, I do see my friends. Not as much as I did in college. Like I'm-for some reason, I don't know. I've turned old, I don't know what happened. But I don't like to go out as often as I used to.

THERAPIST: It happens.

CLIENT: But-

THERAPIST: Isn't the feeling like when Amelia isn't home like you're not really sure what to do with yourself, you're feeling a little listless?

CLIENT: Yeah, sometimes.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like I can settle down and watch like a TV show or something. I'll feel like relaxed for maybe like 20 minutes to a half an hour and then I start to get to get antsy. [pause] Like I don't feel settled and like in for the night until she's home. So I do a lot of driving down to Amherst to go pick her up to just expedite the process, instead of having to wait like 45, 50 minutes for her to take the subway and then walk from the train station.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [14:10]

CLIENT: I mean, part of it's I feel bad that she's been-I don't do that every day, but like not-especially on Wednesdays. Usually she has class to like 7:45, 8:00, but Wednesdays it goes till 9:00. It's like I feel bad too that she's-she doesn't eat dinner until she gets home, so I go pick her up. But it's not like a totally selfless thing, like I do it for me too because I just want her at home so I can feel relaxed also.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Do you feel not quite right when she's not around?

CLIENT: Not all the time. [pause] I don't know. I mean, there's definitely-when-like if I have to go away for a weekend, or-you know what I mean, like that anx[iety]-like I don't know if it's being anxious or if it's-yeah, like I just don't feel right if we're separated for a long period of time. Usually during the day if-I mean, it depends. When I'm busy I don't notice it. If I have a busy day at work and I'm like doing a lot and getting a lot done then I don't really notice. Well, I text once in a while, and as long as I'm like intermittently getting text her from her. I don't like it if the whole day goes by and I haven't heard from her. [pause] But yeah, I guess on a day like today when I don't have a lot to do at work, and I'll be just kind of like waiting for the day to go by. I mean, that's how I feel some of the times, like I'm just like waiting for the time to pass, or like waiting for the week to go by, just like going through the motions. And I don't like feeling like that. It makes me feel less productive at work too, I feel like I don't get as much done as I could.

THERAPIST: It sounds kind of like an emptiness. [16:15]

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess. But it's not all the time. But definitely sometimes. And especially when Amelia's not around. I don't feel like that when we're together. [pause] It just like all makes me feel really dependent on her. Which isn't something that I-I don't know. That makes me feel-like I the worry that there's going to be like an unequalness about our relationship if I feel really dependent on her but she doesn't feel-well, I don't think it's healthy first of all for both of us to be dependent on each other. She's definitely not dependent on me. But I don't-yeah, I don't feel like I want to feel. I don't want to be dependent on her to feel like happy.

THERAPIST: Well I guess how are you defining that?

CLIENT: Like I don't-I want to be able to enjoy doing stuff with other people that I care about, and not constantly wishing Amelia was with me or something like that. And there are definitely some instances where I do enjoy doing things with my other friends or with my family when she's not around. But for the most part I always am like-don't feel like I'm enjoying it as much as I would be if she was around. [pause] Or if I get a text from her or something and I know that she's home and-if I know what she's doing, for some reason then I feel a little bit calmer. And I do feel like I can then enjoy myself for a like a brief period of time until I start wonder like, oh, I wonder what she's doing now. [18:15]

THERAPIST: And so not knowing, how does that sit with you?

CLIENT: It's kind of like associating-like worrying about like something bad happening to her, and like wondering if something happened. And so then that leads to me like constantly needing her to check in with me and text me all the time.

THERAPIST: Does it feel like something is missing when she's not around?

CLIENT: When I'm feeling anxious, yeah. Like when-if I'm feeling like-like today I just felt like really like lonely, you know, all day and afternoon. And I wasn't hearing back from her for a while. And as soon as she-and I was like starting to get upset. I don't know, like I just felt like I was-I felt like crying, I don't know. And that's why I think it's probably related to my hormones a little bit, because I was just likeAlthough I cry a lot. Not a lot, but I'm a crier. But like as soon as she called it was like I felt instantly better. [pause] So I don't know if like something's missing, or if it's just like she just had this like instant calming-like she just has-like as soon as I here from her I just like feel the weight lift, or whatever. Like I'll be feeling like anxious and nauseous and like lose my appetite. And then like as soon as we chat them I'm like, "Okay, like now I can eat lunch," you know. [20:00]

THERAPIST: Did you ever have separation anxiety when you were younger?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Can you tell me about it?

CLIENT: I don't-I mean, I just remember like I couldn't-like I remember as a kid when my parents would go out and leave us with the nanny at night I would just cry, like I would cry, and I wouldn't be able to sleep until-like I couldn't settle down. Oh, actually it kinda sounds like the same thing. Like I couldn't settle down-and I've thought about this. Yeah, I didn't feel-like I couldn't settle down and go to sleep until they were home. And I was like convinced they were never coming back. So it was pretty much the same actually.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Do you remember how young you were when this started?

CLIENT: I don't even know how old I was, because-so we had live-in-it wasn't when we had-we had live-in au pairs for a while, and I don't remember this ever happening with them. Maybe because they were like part of the family because they were just so-and I really liked them most of the time. But it was usually when it was like someone who was just babysitting for the night that I would have this problem I think. It must have been-I mean, I can remember it, so I couldn't have been like a toddler. Probably like my elementary school years for most of them probably, until like fourth grade.

THERAPIST: And you think things changed for you then in fourth grade?

CLIENT: I just don't remember. I mean, my parents definitely know. Because they don't really go out now, and I don't know when they stopped. It's weird, I have these memories of them leaving us with the nannies. Or I just had a much earlier bedtime, so maybe they weren't going out very late, you know.

THERAPIST: They were staying out till seven.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I was having to go to bed at six and I was throwing a fit. But yeah, I don't know if they stopped. I know that when I got older-or maybe-I don't know. I don't know. I think they stopped going out as much actually. Because I don't really remember like in middle school having this issue. And I went to sleep away camp-oh, yeah. So I went to sleep away camp in fifth grade for the first time, and it was bad. Like I was really homesick, so much that I lied-I remember lying-I don't remember the lie that I told, but I remember lying to my counselors to somehow-because in my head I thought that whatever lie I just told was going to get my parents to come pick me up and take me home. So this must be when it changed actually. Because by the end of the summer I was having a great time. I went back for second year, like I loved this camp. And after that first summer-the second summer I had a little bit of homesickness, but it went away really quick. And then I just-it was like I couldn't wait for the summers to come. And I would just cry and cry for like weeks after camp ended. My mom always joked about she'd have to like get ready for it. [23:10]

And this was something that happened-I don't know, I get very attached to people very quickly. And in all of these programs I did, whether it was sleep away camp, or when I studied abroad, or when I volunteered in Madagascar in the Red Cross, you know, like all these different things that I did, every time it ended my mom would say like, "All right, we got the camp plan ready to go," because she knew that I was not going to want to leave. You know, I never wanted to come home from any-college, Geneva, I never wanted to come home because I was having so much fun with my friends. And she said-we had a ski condo up in Maine for a while until-they had sold it a couple years ago when I was in the Red Cross. But so my mom would like pick me up from camp and whisk me-and the same thing after study abroad, after everything, just pick me up and take me to Maine for like a week. And we'd [unclear 24:00]. Because that would just-then I'd be like homesick for camp, you know, so.

But it must have been fifth grade then, all that. Maybe it was my experience at camp that changed that for me. Because I don't-yeah, in middle school I don't have any memory of like having a really hard time leaving my parents. There's always like this little twinge, you know. Even now sometimes, like when I say goodbye to my mom. And I think I get it from her, because I see her like tearing up. Even when I'm just coming back to Providence, you know, I like see her tearing up a little bit, and I'm like, oh. You know. But after going to-yeah, through fifth grade then I think that that-that it stopped happening as much.

THERAPIST: But that attaching quickly is part of the whole piece.

CLIENT: I think so, yeah.

THERAPIST: Like needing a sense of security and feeling it, and then very much feeling its absence.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Mm hm. Yeah, it's almost like-I guess like going back to my experiences at camp, you know, like my homesickness would fade because I was then like attaching myself to whoever I was there with because they could provide me with like that comfort I guess. But then that's something I got used to, and then taking that away at the end of the summer. [pause] Hm, I never thought about those things. [pause]

THERAPIST: Well, even worrying that something bad has happened to your parents sounds very similar to what goes on with Amelia and you now.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Yeah. [pause] Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's like once you-you know, you're experience their temporary absence, and then you just sort of extrapolate to a permanent absence. [26:00]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And if it's bad in a temporary absence it'll be catastrophic, you know, if it's permanent.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Yeah. And I still like-I don't know, I guess I don't get that with my-I don't worry about my parents in the same way I feel like I worry about Amelia. I worry about them sometimes, but I think also all over-they're always on-they're texting me constantly. So it's like I never have the chance to wonder if something happened. But Amelia is so unattached to technology. Which is something I love about her, and can't stand, because it-you know, she's like so carefree and like-I think it's cool that she like doesn't give a shit about her phone, but then at the same time like I don't hear from her for a really long time. Like she would-this story.

She went to Reno with-so my best friend from when I was in high school now lives-he's lived in San Diego for a while. So when she was living out in Oregon with her parents, the same time that I was back in Chicago like after Red Cross, I had went to visit, and so they met and then they became quick friends. And she didn't really have any friends from high school left in her hometown, which is a couple hours north of San Diego, so she would go down to San Diego sometimes and stay with Trevor for the weekend and hang out. And I liked it, because I felt like I trusted the situation, like I knew-you know, like I trusted Trevor, and I just felt like she was safe with Trevor. [27:40]

But so they went to Reno together for a weekend. And I've never been to Reno, I've only seen whatever happens on TV. And she-we had talked like Saturday afternoon, and I was under the impression that, okay, she's going to call me or text me when she goes to bed Saturday night, because that was like what we always did. And I didn't hear from her until Sunday afternoon, and I was just completely beside myself. I mean, I barely slept that night wondering like what is going-you know, like where is she, she's not answering my texts. And it turns out she was literally gambling the entire time, that she hadn't slept. And she's like, "Well, you can't have your cell phone on the floor." But like for me, like I would go to the bathroom and send her a text, you know, and say, "Hey, I'm having a great time. I'm still-" Because she was winning, she like won a bunch of money, especially-like didn't stop. But to me like, you know, not-like I wouldn't-I don't know, I would always think-and maybe because she doesn't feel what I feel all the time. But I think that's why I always check in with people, because I know that I worry, so just like, well. Just so they won't worry like I'll let them know.

And growing up too my mom always made us-like if we were driving somewhere you gotta call or text when you get there. And Amelia's family's the opposite. Like we'll fly from Oregon back to Providence and she won't even text them and let them know that she landed and got home safe. Meanwhile my mom's like on the app tracking our flight. Yeah, so I think the fact that she doesn't-she's not inclined to-like it's not her instinct. She tries really hard to check in with me, she's doing a much better job now than she did last year when she went-or when she was in Reno last year. But since it's not very like inclination to text me every once in a while throughout the day then I think I just like start to worry all the time. Then I worry like, okay, I'm probably not going to hear from her. Like I start thinking like, well, I'm probably not going to hear from her so I might as well just start worrying now, because likeWhereas with my parents, like I know that I'll hear from them. Or if I call like I know they're going to answer the phone. Nine times out of ten if I call Amelia she's not going to answer the phone. [30:10]

THERAPIST: If things change, like if she does answer the phone more or something, does that help like assuage your anxiety? Or if-

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: It does. Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like if I get a text back from her right away then I'm like, cool. Those are the good days, you know. Or usually when I'm like really busy at work and she's texting me, or responding to my e-mails or something, yeah, it helps like right away.

THERAPIST: Well, it sounds like she knows that too.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. And I try to like remind myself that she's just in a meeting, you know. And I know her schedule pretty well so I know when she's probably too busy to talk.

THERAPIST: Do you still-even with that, do you wish she were more responsive?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I know like I need-I try to remember that for her she's being really responsive. But... [pause] Yeah. No, I do wish she was more responsive. I mean, she'll likeBut she just doesn't even know where her phone is ever, you know. And I just-like I see my other friends who are couples and they like text each other all the time, you know, and I think it's cute. And she'll like send me a text, like if she doesn't hear from me she'll text me or something throughout the day.

But I mean like there's been so many days where I finally got a hold of her and she's like, "Oh, I'm sorry, I had no idea where my phone was." Or, "I lost my phone," or, "I left my phone here." Like there will be times when she's in the house and I'm like, "All right, I'm going to call you in ten minutes when I get to the store to find out what kind of whatever you want." And she like doesn't know where her phone is in the house so she doesn't answer. And then I get home and I'm like, "I've been calling you." And she's like, "What? Oh, where's my phone?" Like she doesn'tSo I do, I wish that she like cared more. But I appreciate how hard she tries to like know where her phone is and to check it.

THERAPIST: Does she really just lose it all the time? [32:30]

CLIENT: Yeah. She just-I mean, she's just someone that's notAnd I do, I think it's admirable in like today's time when like every-you know, like I think it's gross when I get on the subway in the morning and just everyone's just like staring at their phones. You know, like we're so attached to our devices, and I think it's like not a great thing for society or for people's social skills. But I feel like-I don't know, I just have that like urge to check my phone and see like do I have-you know, like I want to be accessible. So I like keep my phone at my desk. You know, if someone texts me then I answer it. I don't like let things-I don't-like I'll-I have to be like really, really busy. Or if I'm in a meeting obviously I don't bring it with me. But I wouldn't normally-if I have enough time to read it I at least have enough time to say like, "I'll get back to you in a little bit." And I think that's what gets me about her sometimes, because I'm like, if you're seeing it and you-like just write, you know, like, "Ine sec, hold on." You know. And that's I think why I get like worried so much, because I feel like I'm always able to at least say like, "Sorry, I'll be one minute." You know. Or like, "Can't talk right now." Or something, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Do you feel angry at her sometimes?

CLIENT: Sometimes. But then I try to not feel angry because I feel like I shouldn't feel angry about it.

THERAPIST: Why? [34:00]

CLIENT: Because I think that like I'm the one that's being a little ridiculous and so I should try to give her credit for how hard she's trying, and like it's not fair to be so-she does try really hard.

THERAPIST: I thought that that's where you'd go with that.

CLIENT: Was that wrong?

THERAPIST: No, it's not a matter of right or wrong. But you feel very guilty, and you kind of almost feel ashamed of what you need. And so I could see that if you have a feeling toward her about not being responsive that before even determining whether-you know, she could, you know, make a little extra effort or whatever-that you just sort of shut that out, shut that off-

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: -and just be, "Oh, I should just be better."

CLIENT: Yeah. Because I feel like she's-I feel like she is trying so hard for her.

THERAPIST: So are you.

CLIENT: Yeah. [pause] It's also hard because of her schedule to find times to bring these things up. Because I worry that she's going toAnd this is also like I think half because half the time she does react like this, and then half me projecting this reaction onto her. But like I worry that she's going to get defensive really quickly, and like say like, "I'm doing what I can, what else do you want from me?" That's what I assume she's going to say. [pause] And then usually like-most of the time when I do eventually talk to her about it, even if she does react like that, I'm like, "You're getting defensive really quickly," and we really have a conversation about it. And then we have the conversation and then it gets better and she tries harder. So I probably do need to like just speak up more. [35:40]

And my anxiety did a bit better for a period of time last year when I started seeing-I only had like a couple sessions with this woman at Wellesley because I really didn't like her. And we like came to the idea that maybe I should just-because I did, I felt like really embarrassed and ashamed of like how anxious I was feeling, and like the thoughts I was having and the worries I was having. I was trying so hard to like hold it all in that it was just coming out in these massive eruptions and it was just like really, really bad. And that still happens sometimes, because I still am like embarrassed by how-I feel needy, you know.

But so last year we like-I decided that I was going to start being more honest with Amelia. Because I used to come up with-because I would get angry at her for like not being responsive. But then I would feel like I needed to come up with a different excuse for being mad because that was like not a legitimate excuse for being mad since she was busy. But so then I started being honest with her. And instead of like making up a reason for me being mad I would say like, "I'm feeling anxious. Can you call me?" You know. And it got better for a little while, because I felt like more-I felt like the ability to openly communicate with her, and that she was finally understanding what was going on with me so she was able to like actually change some of the things that she was doing to help me feel less anxious. And I don't know if that's like coming back again and I'm feeling embarrassed that this is like still-I think I thought that like that was going to be like the cure all, you know. But then it wasn't.

THERAPIST: Well, what comes to mind about being needy? What's embarrassing about that?

CLIENT: That I need her to like text me all the time. I don't want to be that girlfriend that's like, you know.

THERAPIST: Who's that girlfriend?

CLIENT: Like the needy one that's always like, "Where are you, when are you coming home? What are you doing now?" Me, me. You know, like I don't want to like... She has so much going on and she's so busy that I don't-I feel like bad demanding like all this attention. [pause] Kind of. But I kind of think like that's where you feel like that, you know. [38:00]

THERAPIST: The weird association that comes to my mind is like a guilty daughter. Mom's got to take care of the house and the kids.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And she's got this really important job.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So I really should-you know, I need to make sure she does all those really important things, and I shouldn't ask for too much. But kind of-like kind of very much like an author[ity]-like I think of a daughter, there's like authority, someone in authority, who has really important things to do.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think it also comes from like Amelia's relationship history with her last boyfriend, who was really-well, first of all he was really manipulative. But he also somehow like finagled it so that she-they were dating while we were at Egypt. Well, from before we went to Egypt, but what I know is from when we were in Egypt. And he somehow made it so that she couldn't like see her friends, or go out with us, or ever like really leave her village, because he made her feel guilty for doing it. I mean, there's like a whole back story. She cheated on him, and then she tried to mend the situation by telling him and being honest and wanting to work on their relationship, because she was feeling with like all of the things from her high school days that I think she mentioned when we were all here together. And so it was like this whole big process for her, and that was part of the process, was like healing her relationship with Grayson. And then he became this monster basically that like didn't let her-like she couldn't even play on our flag football team, you know, he didn't want her drinking.

And I remember all these times when she would-I remember like we went on-we went to this bar in the capital city that was like a girls night, it was like literally just us girls. And this was way before Amelia and I even entertained the idea of dating. Well, apparently she had already been entertaining the idea, but I hadn't. And we like-you know, we all went out and had drinks at this girls night and it was just like a couple of-there was no-there was no guys. Like I don't know what he was freaking out about. But then she got really drunk, because she hadn't drank in so long since he wouldn't let her drink. [40:15]

And then we were flying back to the States the next day, her to go see her boyfriend and me to see the girlfriend that had just cheated on me. And so like they were just about to see each other, and she Skyped with him and he was-like she told him that she got really drunk and then passed out while we all had a dance party around her because she hadn't drank in so long. And he yelled at her so violently that she just was hysterically crying. And I just-like and so I don't want to be someone that makes her change who she is, you know. I'm like really terrified of being like Grayson I think. I mean, I have like promised myself, when I was her best friend first, that like I-and when we started dating, that I would never treat her like that.

THERAPIST: It must be very confusing, like to know that line between sort of, I guess on the one side just sort of having a laundry list of things that has to be done and things she can and can't do, and then feeling on the other side not being able to ask anything because of wanting to be too needy or sort of passively manipulative.

CLIENT: Right. And we've had that conversation before a couple times, especially the summer we moved here, before I started really being honest about my anxiety and I was kind of just like making up things to be angry about. So that probably had something to do with it. And I remember this one fight we had and she like said I was being like Grayson. And it was like the worst thing she could ever say, you know. I mean, this was like over a year ago. And so we've had that conversation in the past about how I like feel like that. And I think it's hard for her too to like shake what he did to her and that feeling that she had with him, and that feeling that like she wants to just-like, you know, that's made her cheat on him in the first place, like she just wants to push it all away.

THERAPIST: But those are her own demons.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, you could be sensitive to them, but you're not responsible for them.

CLIENT: I think I do feel responsible.

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Because I was like the one after Grayson, and so I think I feel like when we started dating-and I know it's a different-like, you know, we're in a different stage in our relationship now. But I remember when we started dating like putting a lot of pressure on myself to like be as fun as possible all the time, and like make her-like I remember when we first-like we weren't even officially dating yet, like we had just kissed a little bit and like fooled around a little bit, but we hadn't slept together yet, and she was still in this weird limbo stage with Grayson, and I felt myself falling very hard for her. But also realizing and listening to her say it, like she just wants to be free because Grayson like, you know, manipulated her so strictly-into like such a strict life in Egypt, and she just wanted to do what she wanted and be free. [43:30]

And I remember thinking-like trying to come to terms with the fact that she was probably going to sleep with our friend Freddy and like all these other people, and like trying to convince myself that like I had to just like let it happen because I couldn't control her. I mean, luckily she didn't want to do those things and she just wanted to be with me and it all worked out just fine. But I remember putting a lot of pressure on myself to just like relax and like try to be laid back about the situation and kind of let her call the shots. Because I'm the first girl that she's ever been with, and she had just gotten out of this horribly damaging three and a half year relationship with a guy she was supposed to marry, and, you know, I was just supposed to be the rebound. But I didn't want to only be the rebound. But it was like-yeah, in the beginning I put a lot of pressure on myself to like take on that responsibility to be everything that Grayson wasn't.

THERAPIST: That's a lot of responsibility.

CLIENT: Yeah. [pause] And I think-I mean, I didn't realize it, it was probably-but I think I am still holding on to some of that.

THERAPIST: It sounds like it.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I need to let that go, because I'm planning on spending my life with her, so I can't like keep doing this forever. And maybe that's why I feel like I can't say anything. [pause] And I used to get anxious about her realizing that she was still straight. And then when I realized that that wasn't going to happen, now I just get anxious about something bad happening to her.

THERAPIST: Sarah that-we're going to need to stop.

CLIENT: Mm hm, for today.

THERAPIST: It sounds like kind of you had sort of a profound realization. [45:30]

CLIENT: Yeah, I feel like I should have a conversation with Amelia this weekend maybe. Not like a bad one, but just to talk to her about it. Because I didn't realize that I was still like holding on to some of those things.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So, but yeah.

THERAPIST: I look forward to seeing you next week.

CLIENT: Yeah. So next Thursday we'll do-

THERAPIST: 3:50.

CLIENT: 3:50.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And you get-

THERAPIST: And then fit on there about if it works for you.

CLIENT: Yeah. If it ends up being an issue. I don't think it will be. [unclear] I can just-it can be like my lunch break.

THERAPIST: Okay. Take care.

CLIENT: [unclear]

THERAPIST: Okay, bye bye. You got everything?

CLIENT: Yup. Thanks.

END TRANSCRIPT