TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi! Come on in!

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you!

CLIENT: I have a check for you, before I forget.

THERAPIST: Thank you! And did Helen (ph) send you the statement and the link to Blue Cross?

CLIENT: Yeah, I sent it them yesterday.

THERAPIST: Okay, oh great! Great! It was pretty clear?

CLIENT: Yeah, it was straightforward, so... And I assume you'll just let me know when you get the payment, or...? [00:01:06]

THERAPIST: They actually often will send it to you.

CLIENT: Oh, and then I'll bring it? Oh, great. Yeah, I wasn't sure how that worked, so... I'm assuming that Helen would have checked that it was covered under my plan first, right?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. No, it's fine.

CLIENT: Good. Just checking. I don't want to have to make that call to my mom! (laughs)

THERAPIST: Everything should be fine. How are you, though?

CLIENT: Good. Doing well today. It's been a busy weekend at work, so... That's always good. (therapist responds) (pause) And, yeah. That's about it. Amelia's going to Philadelphia next week. I actually haven't thought that much about it, because I've been busy, which is good. (therapist responds) So hopefully that will go all right. Hopefully! (chuckles) [00:02:06]

She's staying with a good friend of ours from the Red Cross, Freddy, who... like I know, I trust him, I feel like he'll like... I don't know, this weird thing I picked up in Egypt of like, feeling more confident when there is a man around. It's like, a sense of safety, kind of, because it was like that when we were in Egypt. If I was like, with a guy that I trusted, then nothing, like no one would bother me, you know? So I kind of like, feel fine about (chuckles) her going to stay with Freddy. I know he'll pick her up from the train late at night and he lives in nice area. So... Hopefully, I'll be busy enough that it will go quick.

THERAPIST: That's how you ended the last session, talking about all the experiences you had, which you felt, many of which were not yet processed. [00:03:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. Or maybe they are processed, I don't know. I mean, I don't know how to tell like, when I've processed it, because I do feel like I've changed a lot since coming back, which is expected. Like, you know, I always knew that like, I would go and then come back a different person, but I always thought like, it would all be for the better, you know? And... I mean, that's definitely not necessarily what happened. So I don't know if I've like, processed everything and like, this is just how it is now; or like, this is how it is because I haven't really dealt with what went on over there; I don't know.

THERAPIST: Well, certainly feeling unsafe is not a good thing, it sounds like.

CLIENT: Right. (therapist affirms) And like, I feel like that's translated now to me worrying about like, my safety, Amelia's safety, you know. But then we've talked about things like from when I was a kid that also, you know, so it's not like it's a brand new thing. (therapist affirms) But the way that it kind of materializes now is different, is new. For sure. [00:04:04]

THERAPIST: So thinking about the importance of Freddy being around. Is it Amelia's physical safety that you're concerned about?

CLIENT: (affirms) Yeah. (pause) Because I don't know where he lives, and she has to like, get places, you know. She's got this conference downtown, but it's like an hour commute on public transit from where he lives. And you know, I mean like I said a couple of weeks ago, like she's been all over the world by herself, you know. I think she can navigate Philadelphia, but I don't know.

THERAPIST: Well, it's not a rational fear. (client affirms) Philadelphia is probably a lot safer than a lot of the places that she's been. [00:05:00]

CLIENT: I guess so. I don't know, it's funny, when I think about like, how I felt unsafe a lot of times in Egypt. I also never worried about Amelia's safety in Egypt, because like, the sense of community there, and you have people... Like, even though there were times when I didn't feel safe, I kind of never felt like I was going to die. Like, I didn't think that anything was really going to like... like I was going to cease to exist, you know, something really bad was going to happen, because you like, the way that the communities are there, you just don't... Like there is the verbal harassment is one thing, but like very rarely did it ever get physical, just because of the conservative nature of the communities there, and how everybody knows everybody. So if, you know, word gets out that you touched the American girl, then like, your life is going to be a living hell. You know, and so like, I wouldn't know where Amelia was for like, a whole day at a time, but I always knew that like, she was looked after by the people in her community. (therapist responds) Then I don't feel like, that's definitely not the way it is here, you know. That's a big cultural difference. So... Yeah, it's like all these weird, I feel like, contradictions and... [00:06:22]

THERAPIST: There is a sense of accountability over there.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like, you just didn't hear about the kind of stuff you hear about on the news here, you know? Like people didn't go missing, people didn't take people, people... you know what I mean? Like murder wasn't really something that... I mean, probably in the capitol and like things happen, but it was usually like men doing it to other men. Like, women were this like, tended to be a protect ... I mean you have honor killings, which is like another whole situation, but otherwise, women tended to be this like protected... because it was very sexist, you know, just like protected, revered, kept in the house, kept safe from all the outside dangers kind of thing. So... [00:07:10]

(pause) Like, the people I lived with in Egypt thought it was crazy that we would, you know... They have this idea about America that like, at age 18 you get kicked out, no matter what. Which in some families is true, but not, it's not as like, cut and dried. They have this idea that we just like, send our children off to live wherever they want and... Because it's so different there. You don't leave the house until you get married, and then when you get married, you probably just move down the street (chuckles), you know. (pause) But I don't know. I definitely like, internalized a lot of stuff that is from Egyptian culture, I think.

THERAPIST: Like what?

CLIENT: Like, well, they just put such... And maybe it was stuff that already kind of, I was like predisposed to being, kind of drinking the Kool-Aid a lot, you know? Like, they just put such emphasis on community, and family, and being together all the time. And they make like... If I wanted to spend time alone, they would make me, I would feel so guilty for wanting to spend time alone, because my landlord's family just always wanted... They, you know, they thought it was like a sin for me to be by myself downstairs. Like, what is she, they would always say like, you know like, translated, it's like, "What a shame, that you would be by yourself and nobody to hang out with you." (therapist responds) [00:08:31]

I mean, it can get overwhelming. So, funnily enough, like I actually did like to be by myself a bit over there, because it was like a break from the constant translating and language, I mean, it's exhausting, you know. You're just constantly like, the spectacle in social situations. So I did; I liked to be by myself sometimes. I needed time to work out, time to kind of relax, watch a movie or something, you know, talk to my family. You needed a real excuse to be by yourself. Like, I needed to say, "I'm Skyping with my parents," for it to be like excusable. (therapist responds) Or when I was studying for the GREs, studying for a test was okay. But otherwise, it's like not really... because nobody ever really spends time alone. So it's kind of funny, that I was like fighting for time alone there and now, I can't stand it. [00:09:27]

THERAPIST: Not so much.

CLIENT: But I got used to being around them all the time. Like, you know, after a while, I became, I grew comfortable and just hanging out upstairs with the family, and constantly being around them, and didn't have such, you know, it was like normal to just hang out up there. It was like they were my family, you know? It wasn't a big deal. Like, I could read my own book on the couch. (therapist affirms) Well, they didn't have couches, but like the cushion. You know, and they would be doing their own thing. But we'd all just be in the same room, you know? It was like keeping each other company. So I got used to that. (pause) And so then, that was quite a harsh transition like, by the end, you know, that was something I really enjoyed doing, hanging out upstairs all the time. So, it was kind of funny; I never really thought about that.

THERAPIST: That's a very different lifestyle. [00:10:23]

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh, yeah! I mean, it's wild! And I've been, I've done stints in a lot of different places, and experienced a lot of different cultures, but nothing was as different as Egyptian culture from American culture. It was just like the wildest place I'd ever been, you know? I mean, there is just nothing like (chuckles) Egyptian culture, compared to American culture.

THERAPIST: (pause) Have you been feeling less anxious overall?

CLIENT: (pause) I'm not sure. Because it's not, I don't feel like constantly... And I haven't ever really felt like constantly in a state of anxiety, you know? I feel like I have episodes of it, and so... The last, and I can't remember when the last time was. I mean, I got a little bit worried yesterday. I took Tylenol, which was like a big step for me, yesterday, because I was having really bad cramps. Amelia made me just take the Tylenol. It was bad enough that I took it, but then I had like a slight... moment of anxiousness afterwards. Just that I was going to like hurt my ulcer, I don't know. I mean, because I haven't taken any medication, aside from my stomach medication, since I got the ulcer from pain relievers in the first place. So... And I wasn't excited about that, but... I know other than that like, I don't really remember the last... I don't remember the last time that I like, really freaked out about Amelia. But I also, you know, like we haven't had a situation where we've been like, I couldn't reach... I don't know, like it's just been smooth sailing for a while now. [00:12:33]

THERAPIST: You're not sure if it's you're feeling better or just circumstantial.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I can't tell. Last week, after our session (I guess it was the same day, yeah), and I met her. I like, had to go back to, I went back to work for a little bit, and then I didn't have time to work out, so I was like feeling antsy. So I met her and we like, went for a little bit of a walk. I told her a little bit about what we had talked about, and we talked about, you know, how the little things contribute to that overall feeling. We ended up having like, a really, really long conversation that like we both really, I think, needed to have.

So things have been really good since then. (therapist responds) You know, I've noticed that she's tried a lot harder to do stuff around the house and... Yeah, so we had like a nice night of communication (chuckles). So things have been good since last week. I mean, I know she has this trip coming up, so I'm kind of like, anticipating having a rough time next week. But I'm really hoping that, because we have that event on Thursday, I'm just hoping that like, I'll be busy enough that I won't really have time to worry about it. [0013:55]

THERAPIST: So, have you ever written down your worries while you're having them?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: I wonder if that would be a useful exercise.

CLIENT: You're not the first person to suggest that to me, and I don't know why I haven't done it yet. (therapist responds) When I was in college, I did for a little while. But then I remember finding them a couple of years later and like, I read through some of what I had written. It was like, it was just awful. It made me like, upset to read what I had written, because I had a real, I was like really in a bad place for a while when I was a freshman in college. I think I'm like scared... I don't know, I'm like scared of what I'll write down, I think, because I'm still like embarrassed and... you know? It's like, still that like, shame that prevents me from, from doing that because I always think about it. I'm like, "Maybe I should write down what I'm thinking right now." Then I'm like, "No. Just go for a run," you know? (pause) Because it's like embarrassing. Then, when I write it down, it's like worse than just saying it. It takes me awhile to like, even get ready to like say something, but like writing it is so permanent. [00:15:13]

THERAPIST: What's so embarrassing about your fears?

CLIENT: I don't' know. I just like know how irrational they are... you know? It's like, it's bizarre, because I know that I'm having like, very irrational reactions to things. I know that... but like, I can't stop it from happening at the same time. So it creates this like, weird embarrassment, because like I feel like I, like... makes me like not normal to be having these kinds of fears and worries and stuff like that. So I just try to like, pretend like they're not happening.

THERAPIST: It doesn't sound like it goes too well.

CLIENT: Well, (chuckles) obviously not! Yeah, so... I mean, I can put more of an effort into writing things down.

THERAPIST: But it's, it's, what prevents you is this embarrassed reaction. (client affirms) Does it mean like, you're a crazy person? What does it mean? [00:16:12]

CLIENT: I don't know. I just, it goes back to this like, feeling I've always had since I was a kid, that like, there is something wrong with me. You know, like I always thought that there, I was just like, not right, like because I was really overweight and then I was dealing, when I was dealing with my sexuality like, I was like... I used to remember like, I would just sit there, like when I would be upset and I'd cry, and just like, in my head, just like list all the things that were not, like wrong with me. You know, I'd be like, "I'm fat and I'm apparently I'm a lesbian..." I had this like horrible habit of biting my nails; that was always on the list when I was younger, because my mom would always try to get me to stop biting my nails, so it was like always on my mind.

But, and there was just like always this like, list of things that was wrong with me; those were always things I never talked about like, they were embarrassing to me. Like, being overweight was like, an embarrassing thing to talk about, you know? Having like, an issue with overeating was embarrassing for me. And when I was, at the time like, still dealing with what my sexuality meant, you know, it was embarrassing. It wasn't something that I wanted to talk about. So I've always just associated like, things being wrong with me with like, feeling embarrassed about them. I don't know. I don't know where it comes from. [00:17:29]

THERAPIST: That someone would sort of find out that all these things are wrong with you?

CLIENT: Yeah. I'd feel like I never thought that, but like, what would happen, but like I didn't want anyone to know. (pause) And I still do a good job of like hiding things, you know? People have no idea that I... There is like, I can count the number of people on one hand, on like three or four fingers, that know that I have like issues with anxiety. People are generally pretty surprised when they find out, too.

THERAPIST: Do you remember how old you were when you started thinking about sort of just feeling ashamed about your problems? [00:18:29]

CLIENT: I think it was middle school, because I think that was when I first started having like... I remember, I mean, I feel like I always probably felt a little bit, from my weight, but like it got really bad when I started like, having feelings for my girlfriends and stuff, without really knowing what that was. But that's when I really remember like, thinking like, "Man! All these things that are wrong with me!" So I think it was middle, it must have been like middle school-ish. And then like, definitely in high school.

THERAPIST: So that was around middle school was the time where you were thinking about your sexuality or even just trying to figure out what your feelings meant? (client affirms) Did you know about sexual orientation, was it just sort of like, "I have no idea what's going on"? [00:19:15]

CLIENT: I just didn't, I just like remember, I don't know. I just like, there was just something like, different about the way that I felt than the way that I could tell my friends talked about boys and stuff. I had a boyfriend in middle school, these two boyfriends, for like all of middle school. Not at the same time, like one, and then the other one. (pause) I don't know; it was exciting, because like somebody liked me. But... I still would have like, rather gone and hung out with my friend Fran than my boyfriend Bill, like any day of the week, you know?

I remember this one, like I always, it wasn't like I was like, "Okay, I have like, sexual feelings for Fran." It was like I had, I like remember really enjoying like, giving her hugs. Then I remember one time, she asked me to stop hugging her so much. That made me feel embarrassed, and then I was like, "Oh, maybe this is like, not right," you know what I mean? Like, "This is not something that she feels, it's not normal friend feeling, that I'm having," maybe. But I didn't know. Like, it wasn't until I was in high school that I was like, "Okay, like I want to kiss this girl," you know; and I had like, sexual feelings for her. But then, it was always, yeah, just like always came down to there being something wrong with me, because I always fell for straight women, because I didn't know anyone that identified as a lesbian in high school. [00:20:38]

THERAPIST: Was that true throughout high school?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) It's funny, I ended up kind of having this fling with this girl that I went to high school with like, three years ago, four years ago, when I was in the Red Cross. It was, you know, like, it would just, in high school like, I don't know. I went to a really small school in a town where nobody was gay. So... And like it turned out that this girl had actually been dating another girl throughout high school, I just had no idea.

THERAPIST: I was going to say, where people don't talk about being gay, (inaudible) (blocked) no one (inaudible).

CLIENT: That's true, that's true, so people are definitely gay.

THERAPIST: They don't have like sort of town, you know, lines. (laughs)

CLIENT: That's true. Yeah, and I remember it was funny, you know, after... She was a, we were just good friends throughout high school. We were on the softball team together and we were just good buddies. I always thought there was something going on with her and the pitcher, but like I never really, you know, nobody talked about it. She had a boyfriend the whole time.

Then it was pretty funny like, when we finally got together. Then it was like, ten years in the making, you know, like (chuckles). But... yeah, no, throughout high school I didn't know anybody that was open about it, or anybody that I could... I don't even know how she found that she could have this relationship with Nancy, you know, the other girl. Like, I wouldn't have even known where to start with all that. (pause) I mean, I didn't have my first experience with a girl until I was 20. [00:22:07]

THERAPIST: Wow! Did it get any easier in college, to at least identify with other people who were gay?

CLIENT: No, because where I went to college, there was not a huge gay community. I was, I became like, the token lesbian on campus, because there was nobody... You had, the outlook was the name of like, the LGBTQ Student Alliance, and it was made up of people who were pretty socially awkward and not... (pause) They were really isolated from the rest of the campus community, which obviously, I mean, at a very white conservative school that, you know, I don't blame them, but by the time I came out, when I was a junior... Then so I was really only out and on my college campus for a year and a half, because I was abroad for the first semester of my junior year. Then I came back, and I had second semester and then my senior year. I was just like the only approachable out lesbian on campus, essentially. [00:23:08]

It, just, I mean, it was crazy like the, it's this really small school, you know, and it's like this bubble, and there is one bar that everybody would go to. It was just like, every time I went to the bar, some different girl (who was otherwise straight) would come up to me (like literally like, every single weekend, somebody different), who was questioning their sexuality and like professes their love for me, or something like that. I mean, it was ridiculous, it created completely unrealistic expectations for me in the real world. Having Amelia now doesn't really, I mean, now I'm like, "I told you guys, so like, look what (chuckles), you know like, see, here is my straight, otherwise straight sorority president that I always said that I would marry," you know? But, yeah, it was ridiculous. But there was nobody else, you know. Looking back it makes sense that I was the only one who, I was friends with a lot of different kinds of people and so people felt comfortable coming up to me and... anybody that was questioning their sexuality did so in my bed (chuckles). [00:24:08]

Yeah, it's ridiculous. And it's, you know, and I, like I think I mentioned that I beat myself up over the way that I treated women in college, but it was because everyone was like... Nobody taught me a lesson, because it was just like an endless supply of cute sorority girls who wanted to try making out with a girl... you know? I was successful athlete on the rugby team, I mean, I was like the frattie football version of, or like the girl version of like a frattie football player. Then I graduated and I remember going out to a bar in Chicago with my friend from home. I'd be like, "Why isn't it happening (chuckles) anymore?" You know? Like... So...

THERAPIST: Very particular experience.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's crazy. The campus has changed a lot, you know. Now it's a lot more diverse, but I just happened to be there before being gay was like as accepted. I mean, I guess a lot has changed in the last couple of years. It turned out, I mean, after I came out, then a lot of my friends started to come out as well and you know... Out of my group of college friends like, half of us are gay, but I was the first one to come out when we were in school. But I didn't do so until I was abroad. [00:25:25]

THERAPIST: Did it feel like a secret?

CLIENT: (affirms) It was a secret, but like I wasn't acting on it, either, you know? I was still sleeping with men and trying to like, fig , you know, just because I only had... There was only straight girls for me to have feelings for. So there was still like, there was nothing wrong with me, why they weren't liking me back. Then I lost all that weight... and then I came out, and then I started to get like, other girls, you know what I mean? So it just like was like a weird pattern of reinforcement for me, too, that like I needed to be skinny and athletic and... to be able to be loved, kind of thing. Because it just all kind of happened that way at the same time.

THERAPIST: A lot of times, emotions get formed around coincidences. [00:26:19]

CLIENT: Yeah. It was totally, I mean it was totally circumstantial. (therapist affirms) (pause) I don't remember why I started talking about that.

THERAPIST: Well, we started talking about what, writing down your worries (client affirms), and feeling embarrassed, and feeling that there was something wrong with you. Then you thought about this whole history, and feeling something was wrong with you. And having no one to share it with, too.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's been, I'll, like I've, that's definitely been a pattern. I don't really open up to people about it. Even like, I saw that therapist in Chicago for quite some time and I mean... it took me like, years before I even was like, "Um, I think I'm gay," you know?

THERAPIST: How old were you?

CLIENT: Um, I went to see her when I was in high school. And then... but like I think my mom wanted me to go, so I could have, talk about what direction I wanted to go in, career wise, or something like that. It wasn't for, I don't know, I don't remember why. It was like something related to college and jobs. And it wasn't until... must have been like 19 , yeah, it was around the same time like I was coming out at school, like 19 or 20. [00:27:45]

THERAPIST: Was it just sort of this pervasive fear, or did you have particular thoughts about what people would say or do or think?

CLIENT: I was just like always scared of being rejected. (therapist responds) Like as long as I wasn't... telling these girls that I had feelings for them, and as long as I was just like thinking about it, and thinking about like, ways that I could make them like me (like losing weight or getting better at rugby, you know), then there was still that hope, I think. (pause) And I was just scared what would happen if I, because I still thought it was like a wrong feeling to be having, you know.

THERAPIST: Because girls shouldn't have feelings for other girls?

CLIENT: Yeah, not among my friends, no. It wasn't something I was ever exposed to.

[pause 00:28:36 to 00:29:14]

But I don't really think of like, my coming out story as like, atypical or like, there is anything, I don't know. When I think about it, it's not something that like, hurts me now, you know, to think about. Like I look back and laugh and feel lucky that my parents were supportive and that I ended up, you know, I think (chuckles)...

THERAPIST: It wasn't, it doesn't sound like it was the coming out that was the problem.

CLIENT: That's true.

THERAPIST: It was the (inaudible) (blocked)

CLIENT: Yeah, my coming out experience was really positive. Everybody was really supportive and they were like waiting for it, you know? Then once I could be open about how I had these like, really unhealthy feelings for my good friend Nancy and like, the rest of my friends rallied behind me. They were like, "She's not (ph) nice to you," you know? "Move on. We'll find you somebody else," and it was wonderful. Yeah. Like everything good happened after I came out, you know? But yeah, it was definitely the before part that was troubling for me.

THERAPIST: And years and years and years of it. (client affirms) It sounds like you felt isolated. (client affirms) Like, very isolated. I wonder if it relates to your difficulty being alone. [00:30:24]

CLIENT: It might. Because I mean, I felt like that I had nobody for so long, you know? (therapist responds) I mean, like realistically, I did. I was always surrounded by wonderful people, but I still, there was like these huge things I wasn't talking about. (pause) I mean, I didn't exactly get positive reinforcement when I did, you know, when I did try to tell my mom that I was struggling with an eating thing and that I was doing drugs and... You know, she kind of like shot me down in that moment. I didn't revisit that, I have never revisited that conversation. So I didn't really get like, I mean, when I came out, yeah, it was like, great. You know, and everyone was really awesome about it. My friends were, you know, I have friends that I can talk to about anything. But, it was almost like, with that situation like, you know, I think they, yeah, that's like, "Right. Remember, you're not supposed to talk to people about like, those big problems," kind of thing.

[pause 00:31:23 to 00:32:15]

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: I was thinking like, trying to figure out why I don't like being alone and like, what I think about when I'm alone. (therapist responds) (pause) Like nothing specific is really coming to mind, because I really, like I'm not feeling alone that much. I mean, some days I feel like it, you know? But I usually, like I tend to distract myself.

Like, I've been going to that event at the Square last week so like, I've been there every night this week until... Amelia is home. I haven't really had that much time. Actually last night, I was home for about an hour, maybe like two and a half hours, by myself and I actually had a good time. I like, laid on the couch, and I ordered some dinner, you know, and like looked at stupid stuff on the Internet and like, I had a nice time. I waited for Amelia to come home, and it felt nice to be able to do that. (therapist responds) [00:33:28]

Like, I just, I felt like, calm. It was like, I know Amelia's in class, you know? I've had a really busy day, and I just want to, I've been like, I was having bad cramps all day yesterday. So I just, all I wanted all day was like, go home and just lay down, you know? That was like, having what I wanted and... It was nice. It was like what I always like, wish I could do, you know.

THERAPIST: That does sound nice!

CLIENT: Yeah, it felt good. (pause) I don't know. It's just been like, a nice week like... Not that joining a jam is the answer to my problems, but I feel like that's helped a lot. You know, and I've been going with one of my co-workers. We're like becoming, we're like new friends so we have like, lots to talk about. It's just like, it's nice, yeah. (therapist responds) [00:34:18]

(pause) I do worry that... I'm like... not that I'm trying to find a substitute for the attention that I get from Amelia, but like, with this girl from work... It's not that I have like, a crush on her, but I noticed that I think we flirt. (therapist responds) I've been feeling really guilty about that, although Amelia and I talked about how she's really cute and like, we laughed about how I think she's questioning her sexuality. Amelia was like, you know, we like joke about my past and Amelia's like, "Well, here we go again," you know. And, um...

But I don't know. I was feeling really uncomfortable for like, a week like, all week. Last week, I was feeling really uncomfortable about all of our interactions. I feel a little bit better about it now, because I think that she's just looking for like... I think she is questioning her sexuality and I think she just wants kind of like... She's a lot younger than me like, it's not something that I would ever... I don't' know. I think she just wants to like, know about my experiences a little bit, and that's why she's trying to hang out all the time. But I was getting kind of uncomfortable, because I was feeling for a while like, Amelia wasn't around you know, and I was... not wanting, I don't know. It's hard to explain. [00:35:42]

THERAPIST: Like replacing somehow?

CLIENT: Yeah. Like I wanted that like, flirty attention and I wasn't getting it, because Amelia was gone all day. (pause) Because I like attention, it's always been something like, I like it when people are giving me attention, especially sexual attention. (therapist responds) But I felt like after Amelia and I like, talked about it for a couple of minutes like, I felt better. It was just like, I think it was making me feel shitty because I wasn't talking to Amelia about it. Then that was making me feel like I was doing something wrong, because it was something that was making me not want to tell Amelia about it.

(pause) I don't know. I think it's healthy for... and Amelia and I talk about this all the time, that like, you can't expect to not be attracted to somebody else. But, I think there is a difference between like being... I don't know, thinking someone else is good looking or like, thinking that they're attractive and... but then like, not wanting to tell your significant other. I don't know. I don't really know how to describe how I was feeling. I'm not feeling like that this week, but it was kind of a big issue for me last week. (therapist responds) [00:36:51]

You know it just like, brought up questions like, because I never... This is the first time that I think I've been a little bit attracted to someone, since Amelia and I have been dating. That was always what used to happen to me, with all these other girls, you know? Is that like, I was just attracted to so many people and I was like, "Well I can't help it," you know? "I'm just going to sleep with all of them." But then when I met like, well not when I met Amelia, but when we started dating and I fell in love with Amelia, it was like, nobody else could catch my eye. And then Brenda (ph) did, a little bit. Then that made me feel really scared and guilty.

THERAPIST: Because...? [00:37:36]

CLIENT: Because it had never happened before, and it reminded me of my history in college with women. But then it also made me feel like, "Well, why am I looking for, like...?" You know, because I have no desire to do, to do anything with Brenda. She's a very cute girl, but like I would... never, I don't know. Like, I don't, I would never do anything to be disloyal to Amelia, and I don't have any desire to. Like, I don't feel like I want to hang out with Brenda alone, you know what I mean? Like, I don't feel like I want to explore that or anything like that. But it just never... I don't know. I flirted back with her and then I felt bad about it. (therapist responds)

(pause) But I felt better once I told Amelia that, I was like, "I think Brenda had been flirting with me and I don't know what to do about it." And then, you know, and they know each other. It was just a weird situation, because most of Brenda's and my conversation was about Amelia, because she was asking me a lot of question about Amelia and my relationship. So it was like this weird... Like she would flirt with, I felt like she was flirting with me, but then we were only talking about Amelia, which was making me feel weird. I don't know. (therapist responds) [00:38:49]

(pause) And then I started to call (ph) like, you know, brought up all these other questions, well like, am, "Is something missing between Amelia and I, that I'm even thinking like, that I'm even feeling like this right now?" But then we had that like, all these conversations all weekend about... everything.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it seemed like it was less about Brenda, her potential interest in you and more about why would you be thinking about her.

CLIENT: (affirms) (pause) But yeah, I feel like after Amelia and I had a conversation just about how I'd been feeling the last couple of weeks, and feeling kind of lonely and isolated. Then once I was finally like, "Well this is what's been like, going on with Brenda at work and it's freaking me out and..." I felt, I don't know. I just felt like we reconnected this weekend and we've had a really good week and I'm feeling like a lot better about things. But I still feel kind of weird around Brenda at work. I don't know, I can't describe it. We went to the gym together the other night and we had a good time, and it was fine. But like, I don't' know. I think now that the thought has been in my head like, it's, I'm just like, can't shake it.

[pause 00:40:11 to 00:40:23]

And I guess because I've never been in a relationship this serious before, I don't know what's normal and what's not. Like, I don't know if it's... I always think like, the littlest thing is like, the end of, you know, relationship ending. And Amelia has helped me to learn that like, that's not, you know, like little fights don't mean that we're breaking up. You know, these little things are just part of being in a relationship and working with each other to make it work. But because I don't know like, what's... I'm like, I don't know if it like, is it normal for me to think that she's cute?

THERAPIST: Is that a direct question?

CLIENT: Yes! (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I am not a very good judge of normal. But I don't know if that's the question.

CLIENT: Not normal, but like is it, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Is it...

CLIENT: Like, is it unhealthy in our relationship for like, Amelia or I to be attracted to somebody else? It depends on Amelia and my relationship, right? [00:41:18]

THERAPIST: That's also just a different way of saying is it normal? (laughs) (client affirms) To me, what seems important is that you worry about these things. You begin to question yourself and wonder if there is something wrong, and then you begin to feel insecure.

CLIENT: (affirms) And that's, I mean, it's funny like, when you phrase it like that, because I always used to think that there was something wrong with me like, inter-relationships also, because I never... I always cheated. Technically, in my eyes, it wasn't cheating, because I was telling the person that I was sleeping with somebody else. So I wasn't lying and cheating, I was honestly cheating. But I never felt connected with somebody enough not to want to do that, and so I just always thought there was something wrong with me. (therapist responds) [00:42:09]

And then that was another, you know, like when Amelia and I started dating, I didn't feel that anymore. (pause) And I don't feel it now. It's not the same as when I was younger and I would actively seek out other people to sleep with. This is like... the tiniest bit of flirting has now scared me shitless and I like, don't want to even be in the same room with her. Like, God forbid, she touches my arm, you know? And so it's like, not the same thing, but it's bringing back a lot of those emotions of like, feeling like, there like, I'm just never going to be, I just always assumed I would never be in a committed relationship because I can't do it.

THERAPIST: There is something that freaks you out about other thoughts that you have.

CLIENT: (pause) Was that a question?

THERAPIST: No, it was a statement.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And then like, I felt like I was trying to convince myself last week that it was fine, you know? But like, the more I tried to convince myself, then the more I freaked myself out, because I'm like, "Why are you trying to convince yourself? Either it's fine or it's not. If you're trying so hard to convince yourself, then what's going on?" I mean, I needed to talk to Amelia about it. And I did, and then I felt better, but... [00:43:27]

THERAPIST: You have a lot of worries.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah! (pause) Well I just, I don't know. I thought of like, "What would I think if like, Amelia was doing this?" You know? I don't know, I just don't... I would never want to do anything that would hurt her, you know? And I kept trying to think like, "If she knew, if she was like watching our interactions right now, what would she think, you know?" And then like, talking to her about it and seeing her like, laugh it off and like, asked me, it was like, she asked me, she was like, "Well, do you think she's hot?" And then I turned red, and she laughed about it, you know? And I think she, like it doesn't, she's so comfortable and confident in us and I am, too, but... not as, I don't know. It's not that I'm not as much as her, but like I get worried, you know, about everything. And I'm always worrying like... [00:44:22]

THERAPIST: You worry about the relationship and you worry about yourself in particular (client affirms), your own capacities.

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah. Those are the symptoms (ph) of Jewish Mother Syndrome like, there is always something we...I'm terrified, like God forbid, we have kids! Like, I'm not going to be up, they're never going to, you know, they're going to be grounded permanently (chuckles). Like, I'll never be able, I get this anxious about like, Amelia's safety, you know? I can only imagine what it will be like if we have kids and they like, start driving for the first time or like, wanting to go to the park by themselves. I mean like, I'll be crazy! I'll have to be a stay-at-home mom. I won't be able to be at work (chuckles) I have to be like...

THERAPIST: When kids are born, they usually, that's, driving is not really the first thing they do.

CLIENT: I guess. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: You're projecting very, very far into the future! (client chuckles) Kelsey (sp), we're going to need to stop for today, okay? [00:45:25]

CLIENT: Yeah, sure.

THERAPIST: So I'll see you then in two weeks.

CLIENT: Yeah, next week we both have... other things.

THERAPIST: Right. Great! Okay, so I will see you then! (client affirms) Have a good two weeks!

CLIENT: You, too!

THERAPIST: Thank you! Yeah, don't forget your (inaudible).

CLIENT: Thanks. All right, have a good one.

THERAPIST: Thank you!

END TRANSCRIPT