TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

[00:01:00]

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in. [00:02:00]

CLIENT: What a nice dress!

THERAPIST: Oh, thank you very much.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:02:23) [laughs] Oh. It's hot, then it's cold, and... [laughs] Doesn't make sense.

(pause)

[00:03:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: I guess we can continue from last time, or should I say what I'm thinking or whatever? [laughs] [00:04:00]

I guess last time we stopped at when we were talking about why I feel like an outsider when I've been invited in or something.

I don't know, I guess I just never allow myself to feel invited or like an insider. I feel like I'll turn to jelly or something if I don't have my defenses up or if I don't feel defensive and judgmental and...yeah.

Say in that scenario, we were talking about last time, if I didn't have all my judgments ready (ph), like, "Oh, these guys aren't intellectual," "Oh, they're watching a boring movie," or, "Oh, they have too much money but they don't know how to spend it." [00:05:15] "They're this, they're that," to get on some sort of a high horse.

Then to get on a very low horse and to think, "Oh, they have everything and I have nothing," and, "I didn't have a nice upbringing," and, "They have all these nice childhood memories," and, "Their parents are nice." [laughs] You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: I guess you need a horse, then.

CLIENT: Like a high and a low...

THERAPIST: Right. A question is why does a horse need to be in the picture?

CLIENT: [laughs] So I can gallop away. [laughs] I don't know. [laughs] [00:06:00] I don't know, some sort of elevation or-what's the opposite of elevation? [laughs] Descent?

I guess I feel like that's my response with everyone most of the time. There are occasions when I feel no hierarchies.

THERAPIST: Is there a hierarchy in here?

CLIENT: Yeah, isn't there?

THERAPIST: It's your hierarchy. You tell me.

CLIENT: You want to know my hierarchy (inaudible at 00:06:39)?

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Well, you have a very nice place in Providence. [laughs] A nice office. At some point, I also consider that (inaudible at 00:06:52) for five minutes, becoming a psychiatrist, helping people with their problems. [00:07:00]

THERAPIST: It sounds like you like it. It looks nice.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Where does play into the hierarchy?

CLIENT: Well, I think you're doing much better than I am. [laughs] In probably most ways. That makes you higher than me. I don't have to do this now or I don't do it because the occasion doesn't present itself. We're not in a social context, where I have to be like, "Oh, yeah, you probably have it all." I don't have to go there (inaudible at 00:07:41).

THERAPIST: Why? Why don't you go there here but you go in other places?

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know. Maybe because I'm not getting-I'm not here to get-(inaudible at 00:08:00). I don't know. [laughs] Something to think about. Why do I do that?

THERAPIST: It is interesting.

CLIENT: [sighs] So I can hurt you, I guess?

THERAPIST: How?

CLIENT: If I would go there-

THERAPIST: You would be hurting me.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Push you away. When I think about-and I've thought about that with everyone, my mom, Chris, everyone, every colleague I've had, every teacher I've had, every new friend I've made, every...yeah. There are some guys that I went out on first dates that I didn't do that. [laughs] [00:09:00]

Yeah.

Yeah, so I can hurt them? So I can get on a high horse and be like, "Well, you have it easy but I [did not] (ph)." Is that hurtful?

THERAPIST: Kind of like a moral superior position?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like they have some-a material superior position so that you could have a moral superior position?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But you don't need that here.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't. I don't need to hurt you. I would be this way with my first boyfriend. I don't know, I was even more immature back then [laughs] but somehow less volatile and more stable. [00:10:03] Late teens, early 20s (inaudible at 00:10:08).

He was your average, American I would say, "You're a golden boy." He would hate that phrase. (inaudible at 00:10:19) "Why are you doing this?" or, "Why are you calling me that when I'm not?" [He would say things] (ph) like, "Yeah, I don't understand. My childhood was nothing at all like yours. I want to take care of you for that reason," this and that. [laughs]

He would be very hurt by my placing him in that superior category and myself in a lonely (ph) one. I guess I kept doing it. [00:11:00]

I feel like that's become such a part of me, then. If that's my identity, how can I give it up? Maybe I don't have to give it up, but I don't have to make myself miserable, defining myself with that just that of-I don't really know.

It is background. Maybe I foreground it? Instead I should just leave it as background and then hopefully as time passes it's a distant past and my foreground is [sighs] what I have now and I'm doing now, maybe. At least, that's how I'm trying to be with this guy that I met. My foreground is I'm a struggling writer and this and that and a student. My background is [whatever, my childhood and all] (ph). [00:12:02]

I haven't discussed any-told him any of that, because I feel like it's not what this is about. It's about just having fun and (inaudible at 00:12:13). [laughs] I feel (inaudible at 00:12:17).

THERAPIST: Do you feel those feelings towards me and suppress them so that you don't hurt me, or is it just not something that you think about a lot?

CLIENT: Do I suppress them so that I don't hurt you?

THERAPIST: Well, you were saying that you don't have the feelings in here about, "Look at all you have and I have nothing."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You're saying because you don't want to hurt me.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So I'm wondering sort of if you feel like you're trying hard not to hurt me.

CLIENT: No. I phrased it maybe a little weirdly. What I meant was that I maybe think that way with the people I do that with, to hurt them. [00:13:00] When you pose that question, "Why don't you do it here?" I guess I should have said, "I don't feel the need to hurt you," but in every other scenario I apparently do. [laughs] It's weird.

THERAPIST: That you feel angry in those other scenarios.

CLIENT: Yeah. Why? Why is it any concern of me? Why is that someone has whatever that is that they have? [laughs] Just because they've had nice parents (ph) doesn't mean that-it's not even like an economic imbalance where they exploited me to have nice parents (ph). There's no equation there, but still, it's weird. [00:14:00]

Then I use that as ammunition, but the only person I actually end up hurting was myself. It's weird that I can think of that but it does hurt them, actually, because (inaudible at 00:14:20) and Jeremy would say, "(inaudible at 00:14:22), [I'm hurt] (ph)." No one else does. They don't even (inaudible at 00:14:28). Maybe people are more pure in their youth. [laughs] When I distance people, they don't even feel it, [I think] (ph), they think?

THERAPIST: Maybe.

CLIENT: They do? Even if they're in their 30s?

THERAPIST: No, I was saying maybe that's true, what you're saying.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You were saying, "Maybe I distance them so they don't even feel like it," and I said, "Oh, maybe." [00:15:00]

CLIENT: If I were to say, "You know what? Shut up. You have everything. You have no idea what it is like to," (inaudible at 00:15:07) or whatever. What would you feel?

THERAPIST: Dismissed.

CLIENT: Dismissed, yeah. What would your reaction be?

THERAPIST: Depends on my relationship to you.

CLIENT: Yeah. If we were friends.

THERAPIST: If we were friends, if we were good friends, a good friend would say, "Why do you feel the need to dismiss me?" If you're not good friends, the person will just be dismissed...

CLIENT: Yeah. [laughs]

THERAPIST: ...and leave.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess, in the back [of my mind] (ph), I want to find out if you will actually dismiss yourself or if you'll be a good friend and ask me. [laughs] I should haven't that need to play games or keep people-I keep testing their friendship or their (inaudible at 00:16:10) or whatever.

THERAPIST: In saying that, "Look what you have. I don't have anything," you're talking about a state of injustice and that they're causing or facilitating their injustice.

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: That's kind of part of the statement.

CLIENT: Yeah. How would they have caused that?

THERAPIST: Well, you're not only saying, "I don't feel treated fairly," or, "I haven't gotten a lot in life," you're saying, "Look what you've gotten and look what I haven't gotten." It's sort of like they're participating in the state of injustice. They're not just bystanders.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:17:00]

I don't know, I guess I feel like it's high time that I gave it up. [laughs] I'd like to feel differently. You feel a certain way for a long time, it obviously does get tired and you want some sort of movement. [laughs] People are growing and expect growing [for you] (ph). You're (inaudible at 00:17:41) experience all the different phases of your life.

THERAPIST: I think of that as such an important motivation. What we're talking about with you is you have a particular way of seeing yourself and feeling about yourself and feeling about yourself with relation to other people and the world around you, this identity of sort of depravation and injustice. [00:18:10] There are all sorts of influences and motivations to keep it going, and all of those things are really important.

Then there's also that point where people are like, "You know what? I'm just sick of this. Let me try something else."

CLIENT: [laughs] You find that...?

THERAPIST: I think there's something so important about that. I don't think that only happens, but I think there's something very important in that.

CLIENT: I should stick to it?

THERAPIST: I like it. In some ways, it seems not very psychological, because it seems like, "But what about all the reasons that you're like the way you are?" We are talking about those things, so it's not like...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...we're sweeping them under the rug. I think there's a lot to be said for, "You know what? I just don't want to do this anymore. I'm sick of playing this role. I've played this role in every play for the last 30 years." [00:19:02]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: "Maybe there's a different role for me to play and learn."

CLIENT: Yeah. I had this very strong urge to have a core and go back to my core. I'm very attached to certain things. I would definitely be attached to this feeling. I probably desperately try to remember it, maybe because of the stuff that I'm writing right now. That's also going to end, at some point, and then I have to move on to something else.

I think I will always-for every kind of motivation, for every kind of reason, for political or anything, creative and all these reasons are going to cause me to stick to that core.

I guess what I would like is to be a lot more self-conscious and to use that core as...only one part of myself. [00:20:09] Just see all the other things that I have and evaluate them and think about them. "Okay, this is a positive idea. That is a negative idea." The negative idea has social reasons behind it. It's not all that I did and la-la-la.

At least, in terms of interpersonal interactions, I would like to maybe use a different card, play a different role, rather than just that depravation card.

I guess what I'm trying to say is it sounds like I would like to just completely hit "erase" and forget it.

THERAPIST: You'd like a stack of cards, rather than just one.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. [00:21:00] I think, as an actor say, for example maybe there are certain actors that just go for one to the next and never have any memory that they played King Lear and now they're playing the jester [laughs] (inaudible at 00:21:20) it happens.

You're a sum of all your parts, I guess. That feels healthy and normal, organic.

THERAPIST: We started by talking about if you really felt like you were an inside and invited...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...you'd feel like jelly.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is there any other way you could feel?

CLIENT: I guess there could be, yeah. The possibilities are endless. (inaudible at 00:21:54) are endless. [laughs] I guess I could feel like a part of a jigsaw puzzle and see how I fit into the larger mosaic. [00:22:08] Is that right? [laughs] Is that what you said?

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I would like not to just be a cactus. "Don't come close to me! [Stay away] (ph)!" I guess I said "jelly" because I guess I'm afraid that I'll get slapped around in any which way.

THERAPIST: By whom?

CLIENT: By the insiders, the other people. I don't know. Has that happened? Maybe it's happened. I guess in my childhood it's happened, where I so badly wanted to be in certain circles and just wasn't. [00:23:06] Then I was violently rejected. I'm very afraid of that. [laughs]

THERAPIST: Where?

CLIENT: I guess when I was age, I don't know, eight or nine or ten or eleven, around that time. We were renting this is in Nepal we were renting a room, a little apartment, from these people. They had a huge bungalow, a huge house, giant (ph) family: grandfather, grandmother, and then they had one son and his wife and one daughter who had a daughter and son. [00:24:01]

The daughter was a few years older than me. They were very well-off. She would take tuitions (ph) from my mom. My mom developed a liking for her. A lot of conflict there, very jealous of my mom liking her. My mom was going through something very terrible, too. My dad was sleeping around with everyone. I guess she couldn't talk to me because I was very little. I think this girl was (inaudible at 00:24:40) teenager.

She was going through a lot of-she was just-yeah. She was [just a big old mess] (ph), this girl. I used to be very obsessed with her for a long time. [00:25:01] She was going through puberty, so how old would that make her?

THERAPIST: Twelve?

CLIENT: No, really? No, I think 13 or something.

THERAPIST: Girls start puberty as early as ten or eleven.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It could depend. It could be 13...

CLIENT: Yeah, I think she was...

THERAPIST: Fourteen.

CLIENT: Yeah, [she was around that age] (ph).

THERAPIST: You felt she was your mother's confidant?

CLIENT: Yeah, and she was very nasty with me. Yeah. She put me through some very traumatic... [laughs] experiences. Well, first of all, there was that sexual thing. She would force me to do things. She would force all of us [laughs] [to do it] (ph), all her cousins to do things.

THERAPIST: Like what?

CLIENT: I've suppressed (00:25:52). [laughs] It involved getting in bed with her. I don't know, something. Touching her-I kind of remember. [00:26:01] I clearly have a sensory...I can remember her smell, I can remember her breasts and (inaudible at 00:26:09). [laughs]

THERAPIST: You never mentioned this before.

CLIENT: Yeah, I know. [laughs] Never come up.

I don't know if my mom knew about-maybe I told her much later. There was that, and then-

THERAPIST: This was after what happened with the son?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. By this point, I felt like it wasn't like coercion or anything. It wasn't as violent. She wanted stuff done to her or maybe she did stuff to me, I can't remember. Yeah.

There was like a fascination with her, as sort of her being older and stuff and being a woman. It felt less weird and threatening, I guess. [00:27:04] I would see her all the time. I would see her...not just in that context where we were [making her] (ph)... (inaudible at 00:27:17). Yeah.

[sighs] Yeah, so, apart from that, there was this-she would just be very mean and nasty to me, say very nasty things. At one point, and I have this horrible thing, I go into this pattern of cursing my mom. I don't know how that happened and how it came about, but I would actually curse her. I think it was probably I learned it from my dad or something. [00:28:00]

My mom was so thankful to her, to that girl, that she somehow shamed me into getting rid of that habit. Anyways, there was that. She did good things, in that respect.

THERAPIST: I don't follow you. She did good things in what respect?

CLIENT: Well, helped me get rid of this bad habit.

THERAPIST: I see. Was she enamored with this girl?

CLIENT: Who, me?

THERAPIST: No, she. Your mom.

CLIENT: I don't know. I don't think so.

THERAPIST: She just liked her some way.

CLIENT: Yeah. She had a lot of problems (inaudible at 00:28:45) at home, this girl, and no one to talk to about it except my mom.

I had a completely different relationship with her; it was completely like a power relationship. [00:29:00] The fact that they were wealthy was very-they said some very nasty things and they would do nasty things to me.

THERAPIST: The girl.

CLIENT: Yeah, and her cousins and her brother. At one point, for this festival, I asked my mom to buy me firecrackers. We didn't have much money. My mom was a teacher and I think for the point of trying (inaudible at 00:29:30) was also a teacher. Anyways, he was not there. He was out of town. She bought me firecrackers and she spent 20 rupees on them. [laughs] To her it was, "My God, you could have got vegetables for this instead," but she wanted to do this for me.

I was so happy and I was so excited. First time in my life, 20 rupees! I told everyone and I told that girl and her brother, and they were just like, "Oh my God, 20 rupees!" [00:30:05] I can't remember exactly what-they were the kind who would spend 500, 600, 700. They were businessmen so it was a completely, very, very different levels here. There was that.

Yeah, and just like it was constant humiliation because of that. They had friends over. They had a huge garden and I wanted to play with them. Their dog would just run after me and I would be scared (inaudible at 00:30:39). [laughs]

Then I got into this really bad habit of stealing. I guess I always had that. Her mom was like a-she used to run a little boutique, she would have tailors come and make clothes. They would put the leftover discards, samples or whatever, in little bags on the balcony. We had a shared balcony. I would go and steal them, because I wanted to-they were so pretty and I just wanted to make dresses for my Barbie dolls.

At point, they found that I was stealing. She and her brother came and they said, "Your daughter has stolen stuff and we are going to conduct a thorough search." I just felt so humiliated-obviously, I was very humiliated. This is so traumatic and embarrassing. But they did. I was like, "Wait a second, these teenagers can come into our house and shove aside my mom," she's in her 40s, have no respect for that, and then they can just do whatever they want. [00:32:00]

Yes, I did steal. I'm guilty, but that hierarchy also...I don't even (inaudible at 00:32:11), not really, (inaudible at 00:32:16).

Basically, the relation was very complicated. At one point, she had a huge party in her garden. I really wanted to be invited but I wasn't. I was told I would be and I wasn't. I think there was one or two parties where I actually was invited, but I think that was her cousin's party. I lost track (inaudible at 00:32:42). [laughs]

I guess I have a fear of falling into that. I guess that is (inaudible at 00:32:54) to me, like young and hopeful and eyes wide open, and then just getting smashed every which way. [00:33:02]

(pause)

CLIENT: I guess I was also actually hurt. This woman caused me a lot of pain, a lot of misery, but my mom didn't see that. She was like, "Oh, you don't understand her. She has a lot of problems."

I did that. I did see that my mom didn't have a confidant and this girl was there for her and my mom was there for this girl. I get that. Then there's also this piece that I was very hurt by her. [00:34:00] I guess those are two separate things. [laughs] That's why it's complicated.

It can't be as simple as my mom saying, "Oh, you hurt my daughter. I'm not going to-I'm going to shut the door in your face." [laughs]

(pause)

THERAPIST: Does the whole sexual piece seem less important? [00:35:03] It's important to me, but maybe it doesn't feel that way to you.

CLIENT: No, just in this context. I guess we were talking more about being insider and my fears of feeling like jelly. [laughs] In that context, that was one of the things.

Yeah, the sexual piece, I haven't really thought much about it except that...I don't know what word to use, I don't want to use a negative word just for the sake of it (ph). I don't want to say (inaudible at 00:35:35) again. I don't want to say, "I was exploited." I don't want to say that. [laughs] [sighs]

THERAPIST: You don't want to say it because it's not true or you just don't want to say it?

CLIENT: Well, I'm not sure, because it happened so long ago and I misremember things. Maybe even suppressed it so I don't remember them. [00:36:00]

I guess what I feel comfortable saying about it is (inaudible at 00:36:06) sexual. [laughs] Also if you didn't a sexual life, that was what I experienced.

By that point, I guess I was curious, too. Maybe I was curious even before. It's hard to say anything (inaudible at 00:36:30), it feels like. I know that there is this whole political conversation that I keep engaging with, but then I also when it comes to sexuality...in these context, it's hard to say. It's hard to blame, it's hard to-because you are curious. Your friends or cousins...you find, one afternoon, your parents aren't there and you discover how to lock doors. [laughs] [00:37:16] Everyone is asleep and the servants they had servants the servants are away or they're there but they won't say anything. It's just you kids and this one older kid...she runs the show. [laughs] Things happened. It's part of how you interact with people. [00:38:00]

Which is why I guess I feel weird about that whole thing with the 80-year-old man, 80-year-old poet.

THERAPIST: I was thinking about him as you were speaking. What are your thoughts about that?

CLIENT: Well, this is so fucking colored by her daughter and that whole thing. If I take that piece away, I would say I was drawn to him in a platonic way. He kept saying, "I want to be your father," this and that, so I was drawn to him in that way. "Oh, poor, suffering soul [of a] (ph) poet. Poor guy, he's lonely and he's saying all these things. Maybe I could be his adopted daughter," goddaughter, whatever.

I was totally not sexually curious about him. [laughs] It was (inaudible at 00:38:52). From my side, it was nothing like that at all. He wasn't a body he was a-he was a head. He was a mind. [00:39:01] He was a caring hand.

Then that turned into complete perversion within a matter of a few minutes. Although, if I look back on it, all the things that he said were indications that he had an ulterior motive. That totally made me feel betrayed.

I was definitely shocked and betrayed. My reaction was, "What the hell? Why?" Then you can add the piece about how I dealt with it, maybe that was problematic and I should have told her, blah, blah, blah, and whatever she said. [laughs]

Not what I said about him. It's hard to say concrete things about sexuality because there's curiosity and that's how people interact. [00:40:05] In this scenario, I feel like-from his side, he must have thought that I might have been curious, but really-and, "How can you fucking say that after calling me your daughter? Shame on you." [laughs] That was really my reaction.

I'm not giving him any leeway or whatever, (inaudible at 00:40:31) saying that. When I was ten and my friend thirteen or whatever, that is a completely different thing. She actually probably does not know any better.

Yes, there was power play going on there. Maybe she did take advantage of me because I was poor and you're renting from her and younger. [00:41:00] I really don't feel like going and [laughs] taking her to task on that.

(pause)

THERAPIST: My association to your not wanting to feel like an insider was then you would think, "What's my narrative now, then?"

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. That's why I guess I would feel like a jelly.

THERAPIST: Okay. The jelly part, my association was that to your being vulnerable.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, yeah, that too.

THERAPIST: Which is not having-there's vulnerable and then there's just sort of feeling lost (inaudible at 00:41:57). "What's my narrative..."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: "...who am I now? I don't know. I'm sitting on the inside of the club."

CLIENT: I feel like that would make me feel a lot more engaged. I guess this is a take away from Chris. Obviously, he doesn't feel like he has the narrative or whatever, but he does have this tool. He's an economist and he thinks about production relations. He thinks about all the things that [laughs] he writes about and teaches.

No matter what context he goes in, he might see things in that way. That makes me feel, "Oh, yeah, that's nice, that's structure." I guess I should (ph) [laughs] emulate some of that and be like, "Okay, I'm going into this house," or this scenario, "as a dash." [00:43:05]

(pause)

CLIENT: I can totally see how, in different, it could lead to nothing at all. It could lead good thing. It could lead to a disaster [laughs] as in the 80-year-old poet. I don't know who gave me that card, if it was me or it was him. I feel like it was mostly him and his daughter and his wife were like, "Oh, you have nothing. You don't have any friends or family and no money. We're helping you out and giving you a place to stay." [laughs] "Therefore, we can do whatever we want with you." [00:44:01]

Then (crosstalk at 00:44:05)-

THERAPIST: "You're our slave"?

CLIENT: Yeah. Don't want that. I did try to change-like a little bird, I kept pecking at it and going, "No, I have family. I have friends. I have a little bit of money." [laughs]

I guess instead of-that's not really effective. Pecking is not really as effective as being there with a different cad in the first place. [laughs]

(pause)

CLIENT: I guess we didn't really talk about what I thought we would talk about. [laughs]

THERAPIST: Which is? [00:45:00]

CLIENT: Well, I think last time you said, "He wants you," and you [were excited] (ph) that was feeling-I was almost tearing up, because I thought of (inaudible at 00:45:10) [big can of worms] (ph) [laughs]. We can talk about that next time.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, I think we talked about some parts of it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You felt yourself tearing up?

CLIENT: Cheering up?

THERAPIST: Tearing up.

CLIENT: Yeah, last time. [laughs]

THERAPIST: Well, let's talk about this Monday, okay?

CLIENT: Yeah! [laughs]

THERAPIST: Okay, great.

CLIENT: Okay, have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thank you, you too.

(pause)

CLIENT: Bye.

THERAPIST: Bye, (inaudible at 00:45:53).

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