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CLIENT: In that way, it might also be the end. (Pause) I mean, wouldn't it?

(Silence)

CLIENT: But I was like, okay, we could do this, like, great, wonderful thing. And then, like, leave it at that. Or I could, like, come here and suffer over and over and over again. And sometimes (inaudible 13:34). (Pause) But I'm still (inaudible 13:46).

THERAPIST: How would it make us close in ways we're not? In other words, like, I know you've reacted or to me, you've reacted like I was acting kind of obvious questions, maybe even a stupid question. And maybe I was, but (pause) I'm not so sure that it's so obvious, [in a way] (ph).

CLIENT: I don't know. It's not strategic. It's just something that I want. I don't want it because anything. It's [a proof] (ph) that I want it. And I guess that I think maybe it would finally give me an idea of what you want. I guess (inaudible 15:41). Like, it would be (pause) like, your body doesn't lie. Or I don't think you're lying, but your body is. (inaudible 16:11)

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So now (inaudible 16:17).

THERAPIST: So you would know how I felt towards and reacts to you in a (pause) more so and more directly?

CLIENT: And in a way that also happens to be extremely meaningful...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...to me, and, like, taps into parts of me that (ph) feel like they want to come out and be (pause) joined with parts of you, but they can't without (pause) (inaudible 17:07). It hasn't happened yet, but they can without touch (ph). (Pause) How much advice are you getting about (inaudible 17:26)?

(Silence)

THERAPIST: Sorry. (Laughter)

CLIENT: I'm sorry that I'm asking.

THERAPIST: No, no, you can ask whatever you want. (inaudible 18:05)

CLIENT: No, it's okay. Asking does (ph) a lot.

(Silence)

THERAPIST: (inaudible 19:02)

CLIENT: Well, I just wonder how hard it is and how (pause) confident you are in everything you do in here. And also, like, just (inaudible 19:29) [curiosity play into it] (ph). I wonder how many times you've been through this, and I wonder how (inaudible 19:36).

THERAPIST: Well (long pause) people who have (pause) (inaudible 20:55) attractive or sexual feelings, but that said, (inaudible 21:08) but I don't mean it that way. Like, there is absolutely only one you. In other words, like, (pause) of course this absolutely means something to me.

CLIENT: Why do I care about it so much? (Pause) Is that annoying to you? Do you feel like you're always steering me back to myself, because I'm too focused on you?

THERAPIST: No. I (pause) -

CLIENT: And thanks for saying that.

THERAPIST: Sure. No, I won't say I don't feel other things, but I feel I think it's (inaudible 22:10) good, but I feel bad that this is can be sad and so frustrating, you know, again, like, I'm not trying to say that from a distance or mean way, because I think, like, the (inaudible 22:31) become quite helpful, but (inaudible 22:37) it's hard. It sucks and it's frustrating.

CLIENT: Does that make sense to you?

THERAPIST: To some extent, yeah. I mean, well, (pause) in this case, I'm not trying to dodge the question. I'm just asking specifically what you mean. Like...

CLIENT: Like, it's not that helps (ph). I mean, it's really nice to hear "I'm sorry that you're feeling that way," but it doesn't really do much for me. I guess it would be more helpful (inaudible 23:15). I don't know. (Pause) I know. I know it sucks. Like, from all the ways in which you could know, because you know me, because you know (inaudible 23:51) what this is like because you've been through it, or because you (pause) you have to listen to what I have to say, and you feel it. (Pause) I get why you might not be saying anything.

THERAPIST: No, that's one reason I'm very comfortable with saying I do know this sucks. I know it's incredibly painful and frustrating and sad and sometimes (inaudible 24:29). (Long pause) I really wish there was sort of more I could do to (inaudible 24:52), but I (pause) know that this is something I know I at least feel like I'm I feel like I'm pretty tuned into about how you're feeling.

CLIENT: I (inaudible 25:19) in a not (inaudible 25:27) way. You know, like, (pause) do you understand?

THERAPIST: There are ways that this is, like, sort of a chess game of frustration, in some ways, you know? Like, I think we're probably sometimes realizing it and sometimes not. You're kind of trying to, like, figure out where the fuck I'm coming from already and get me to open up. And I sort of, like, tarry over there and tarry over there and tarry over here. Or, like, you know, sometimes like now, kind of step a little bit to the side of it and say what I think is going on. But I think that's all sort of the energy for that, some motivation for that, which is probably conscious, but probably something that happens, and you're not even intending for it to happen is your, like, sadness and frustration. And that it probably like, you may know in your head that there's a point, but it sure as hell doesn't feel like that way, I'm sure, a lot of the time. It just feels, like, fucking frustrating.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like, I mean, to be a little silly about it. Like, there's a bunch of cookies. Cookies are good. We like cookies. Let's talk about the cookies. (Laughter) They're Oreo cookies. They're chocolate chip cookies. They are lemon squares. They are all these brownies. They are always different kinds of treat and sweets and cookies. Let's look at them, you know. (Laughter) Like, fuck. You know, what the hell are you doing? [00:27:24]

CLIENT: But it doesn't feel like I have a choice. Like, it's like, "Well, just don't come to the cookie room." There a lot of days where I wake up and I'm like, "I'm not going back." Not because of anything except that I don't want to be subject to investigation.

THERAPIST: You're sick of the goddamn cookie room.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think the reason why I do come back is because (pause) it's not like I'm at peace outside this room either, with this. So might as well come tell you about it and see how far I can get in getting you to do all the things I want you to do. Kind of like a fun challenge, to me.

THERAPIST: Yeah, but what you really want is some relief.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And..

CLIENT: I'm just explaining, like, why the choice between not coming and coming.

THERAPIST: I understand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That you're yeah.

(Silence)

CLIENT: Can we change the subject for a second?

THERAPIST: Of course.

CLIENT: What do you think of all of the (inaudible 29:48)?

(Silence)

THERAPIST: (inaudible 30:16) but again, I'm not (inaudible 30:23) I'm not trying to dodge it, but is there, like, a context?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What? (inaudible 30:28) (Laughter)

CLIENT: I wonder if they're getting in the way of feeling really bad and hopeless (ph). I wonder if I want them.

THERAPIST: How much are you taking now?

CLIENT: Twenty-five milligrams of Zoloft, most days. [It's really slow] (ph).

THERAPIST: My hunch is that it wouldn't matter all that more (ph) to you.

CLIENT: I don't think they would either. [But I like the idea of them] (ph).

(Silence)

CLIENT: Jeremy and I had an interesting comparison of how we both the ways in which we both feel hopeless (ph) right now. And for me, (pause) I don't feel like this all the time at all. Sometimes it feels (inaudible 32:24), but most of the time, I feel like this way. It feels (inaudible 32:27), which is, like, a little bit frustrating because it's not bringing me to a crisis where I can just, like, quit everything and pay attention to it.

THERAPIST: Or you can stop living with it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like when you're not sort of physically sick enough to stay home from work and just whatever, but you are enough to (inaudible 32:53).

CLIENT: So (pause) I sort of feel like I've done everything I want to do, and I don't know what's left.

THERAPIST: With regard to?

CLIENT: My life. And, like, that sounds however it sounds, and that's why I practiced it with it's mild and it doesn't bring me to a crisis point, and it doesn't happen all the time. But we can (inaudible 33:32). So, like, maybe part of it is a feeling of being, like, academically satisfied, and I, like, jump through all the hoops. And, like, it's fine. I did it. And, like, now what's left is pure curiosity, and that is really great. And sometimes it's enough to drive me to want to work and be a scientist. And sometimes, like, I'm tired, and I don't want to do that. So that's, like, that part. Like, I don't care about getting a job. I don't care about making money. I don't want any more status than I have. Just listen.

THERAPIST: I am listening. I'm showing up. (Laughter) I'm (inaudible 34:40).

CLIENT: I know you do. I have experienced, like, incredible love and companionship from Jeremy, and (pause) I don't think there's anything better. And I can't have you. And I have to, like, be alone and not live with my parents. And so it's just not clear what's left. And for Jeremy, he has the opposite sense of helplessness. To him, he wants to do so much in his life, and he doesn't think that he can do anything. Doesn't think that he can get himself to (pause) to create and produce the way that he wants to, because he's had so much trouble doing it in the past.

So, like, I asked him, "What stuff do you want to do?" Like, "Oh, I want to make stuff. I want to make music. I want to, like, design and build a house. I want [a lot of dogs] (ph). I want to, like, travel and have babies, and work, and really enjoy working." All of these thing seem like good ideas to me, but they're not actually pulling me forward.

(Silence)

CLIENT: Being a scientist pulls me forward more than (inaudible 37:07) anything does. [That's surprising to me] (ph).

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