TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I left class early enough to get here on time and also – well – to relatively work with you –

THERAPIST: Well, I’m running late, so – you’re totally on time in my book.

CLIENT: Yes. So I left time enough to get coffee and so – but – but yeah, thank you so much for being accommodating. This storm has sort of thrown off –

THERAPIST: Yeah, it threw off everybody, so I’m glad it works for both of us.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. So I –

THERAPIST: We’re accommodating each other.

CLIENT: Yeah (laughs). But yeah – so many things – I guess things are starting to – like I’m starting to think about things like recently – like I know it was a big deal for Jeremy and I to come to an understanding that I would pack my own lunches, and I would have a half cup of the Cinnamon Toast Crunch at this time and at that time. So you know, he’s come to accept the Cinnamon Toast Crunch but you know it’s – it’s – a lot of times during the day he’ll interject, ‘Oh, you should drink more water. You shouldn’t have Tootsie Pops, it’s not good for your teeth.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. [00:01:09]

CLIENT: These are all good observations, but you know, for me I found that slightly annoying because –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – what I’ve come to realize is that I’ve got – I’m actually quite controlling over my own eating.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like some people see eating candy as an inability to say no to sweets, in a sense. I mean, I can say, ‘No,’ and I do have certain weaknesses, but at that point, that’s – I’ve started feeling like this is what my body needed. Or at least this is what I needed – I mean, for some reason – I guess back during my really skinny days like, you know, there were certain rewards that I gave myself, like cereal, because I would eat – be very good, I would eat very low – low calories, not very caloric foods, but this was kind of like a free food for me. But you know, recently, as I started exercising and I just found myself like really hungry. Like today I was – for the past few days like I’ve been eating salads for lunch and just craving vegetables and not – you know, nothing – craving actual real food. [00:02:18]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And it kind of sort like made sense to me sort of – because last night I couldn’t – I have dance class late at night, like 7:30 to 9:00. And it’s really hard to fit in like, ‘Do I eat dinner before,’ but then I’ll feel like too full and sleepy to move. But if I don’t eat anything then I’ll be hungry,’ so I try and split it up, but I mean, I was just really hungry last night, and I was like, ‘You know, I’m trying to’ – I don’t want to gain weight and just eat because you know I’m really, really –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – I mean, I didn’t know if I was real hungry or not, but I just couldn’t get to sleep. So I ate, you know, just some yogurt and cooked up squash in the fridge. And it’s just – it was that point – it’s funny when these things come to me, but I was just thinking like, you know, ‘I could eat cereal, there’s chocolate, there’s –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – peanut butter in the pantry.’ But I’m feeling like I – you know, I’m really hungry.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And I want – you know, I feel like – but I felt this sort of need, like my body wanted like food –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – not nibbles and – and you know, today for lunch I sort of had this sort of feeling or like, over the past week, I’ve had this for like an actual lunch, rather than like yogurt and bread, which in many standards is like we eat that for breakfast –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – but having that two times a day like it’s kind of – it – it – it’s not what my body feels like it needs any more. And I feel like that for the first – for the first like maybe few days, I’ve been sort of listening to, you know, ‘Am I hungry?’ [00:03:48]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And kind of try to – trying to connect that to like – I mean, I guess having Jeremy – you know, he’s – he is a bit of a control freak. And he’s told me that. You know, controlling when I eat, but I – you know, today I told him that I was having a chick pea salad, and he was really happy. And I sort of found like those ways to sort of express myself and have my own control –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – but also sort of be healthy and not just do things to – you know, just sort of really think about, ‘What does my body need?’ And I know sometimes when someone tells me, ‘No,’ I – very often –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – it’s like that’s – ‘Gosh darn it, I’m going to eat that Tootsie Pop if you tell me no.’

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And for the first time in like – in a – I mean – and a lot of times, my eating was so much interwoven with the magic, the sort of rituals that I had when I was really, really thin. Like a Tootsie Pop would be to prolong the sort of feeling of hunger. [00:04:50]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And – and now like, rather than having a Tootsie Pop, I just, you know, had an apple and –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – and be done with it. There’s no prolonging – it’s pretty much around the same calories and you know, I feel like, ‘Oh, it’ – like it gave – it would give me more energy.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And so I’m starting to learn also about self-control. Like when you really want to do something, say like shop, like I would love – like I realized last month that my credit card bill was actually better than it had been, and – or you know, pick up another nail polish. I love to do that. And I sort of realized that, you know, maybe I’m starting to feel a little bit guilty about –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – and trying to reign it in a little bit. And realizing, ‘Ok, I spend this much,’ and then I sort of you know really have to monitor. Like allow some freedom –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – but also within that freedom, do what you sort of think is right. And –

THERAPIST: Whose setting up the goals for what’s – what’s right or what’s the right amount of food or right amount of spending? [00:05:54]

CLIENT: Well so – so right now the food now is actually – it’s pretty much in my control. Sometimes Jeremy would interject –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – or like make grumbly faces or – but – he’s – he’s (inaudible) likes that I’m into Cinnamon Toast Crunch, you know? So he thinks they’re tasty. But, you know, it’s or more less I feel in control of that, and in spending, I’m all in control. We sort of have an understanding of how much I give him every month –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – and so in that sense, I’ve – I’ve been in control, but I’ve also been out of control, and that’s – is like – there’s things like – I have a moral conscious and I sort of realized that, you know, in the same sense I have to pay taxes and – but we also have to save up as a couple, and I know – like he does a lot of things for me. Like he takes me out and sort of – we don’t really split finances like, ‘Oh, I ordered this, this, and this.’ [00:06:57]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: We sort of just, you know, whatever money is left over out of the paycheck, you know, put into a lump sum. And – but you know, in the same sense, I sort of feel like this need – this feeling, this need to contribute, and actually I have also – I mean in this – sort of this divine thinking or learning how to control when I’m eating and control the urges to spend, I also find as I’m getting really into my project, my work, and ballet, it’s really hard for me to want to like just – like for me, like I would go to dance like every night if I could. I mean, unless I was tired or being lazy. But then I sort of realized like, ‘Oh, I need to spend time with Jeremy.’

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I – I sort of feel like I go on these little – like these spurts where all I want to do is this one thing, and for a big part of our relationship, my big one thing was Jeremy.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And you know, this whole like I want to – we weren’t living together, but I was commuting all the way and I couldn’t get much work done, I couldn’t do dance, and – I mean, but it was all for Jeremy. [00:08:20]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And you know, in one sense, I don’t know if it’s no, you know, not fair or – for me. I mean, I think he understands, and like last night, when I went to dance, he had dinner at home, and then we met later so we could go to – walk to the corner, which is about a mile away to 16 Handles of Fro-YoPlaits, and got Fro-Yo together and walked home. And so I mean I think we’re starting to find a balance, but I think I sort of feel like – and you know, there’s other times where I would just let Jeremy do the deciding and I would be very agreeable .

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Of course, I would be passive-aggressive as hell, but I’d be –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – very agreeable. And like there’s times, like this weekend when we went to get Vietnamese food and first off, we were going to walk to a sandwich shop but he was like, ‘No, let’s walk to this Vietnamese food.’ And I was like, ‘Ok, well, you know you gave me two options, and I got to pick.’ And then when we got to the restaurant, he was like, ‘You know, maybe I can make soup tonight, so you know, rather than having pho, how about we have this and another non-soup dish.’ And so I was like, ‘Oh, well this salad looks interesting,’ and he was like, ‘Yeah, but’ – so you know, basically like I – I really wanted the salad.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: He really wanted this other dish, but I – and I kept on saying – I was like, ‘Well I would’ – you know, I was like, ‘You know, I think I would be down for this and this.’ And – and he was like, ‘Oh, well, we could order this and this.’ And finally he ordered like not the thing that I wanted – I didn’t say I wanted it. [00:10:06]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I said that, ‘You know, this looks really good.’

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I don’t know why I didn’t – it seems like very logical to say that – ‘I want this.’

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But I know that he gets very moody – there’s been sort of a – sort of an occurrence on weekends where, if it were up to me, I would just like to flop on the weekends.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Like flop and you know, maybe get out at night, because I love the night and I love like walking during the night. But he gets very upset, because he feels like he’s done nothing.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: That the whole day has been wasted, even if we eventually go out by four –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – that’s not good enough. There has to be a walk, whether there’s rain, snow, sleet –

THERAPIST: Does it need to be together?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, it doesn’t necessarily have to be together but he says he feels like a weirdo.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And we’ve talked about – thinking about getting a dog, but in the same sense, it’s sort of – there’s a lot of responsibilities.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So I guess, you know, I sort of see – like make the joke that he’s a dog, and I have to take him for a walk. And like I felt – yesterday, when he was working from home, because he couldn’t get his car out of the snow, you know, he was like, ‘Ok, well let’s – let’s go for a walk around the neighborhood.’ And here it’s cold, it’s raining, it’s slushy, like, snow is up to my knees. And I’m just like, ‘Do we have to?’ Like ahhhh – like – he’s like, ‘Yes.’ And then after lunch, walk, like this what I do on my normal day.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And like, you know, in one sense, because he wants to do what’s the right thing and make sure other people do the right thing with him, we had to go on that walk –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – and I – you know, of course, naturally I – after I had lunch, I just want to sit and I don’t want to go for the walk. And – but you know – and the – also I feel it’s sort of my duty to, you know, make compromise and do things that make other people happy. So you know, I did go on the walk, but I was complaining. And then I felt guilty about complaining. And then I felt like, ‘Oh, well, I probably made this walk miserable’ –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – I mean, I was miserable, but I mean, I wouldn’t – like later that night when it stopped raining and it warmed up, I was happy to go for a walk. [00:12:30]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: But it’s not just like I have to do this because I need a breath of fresh air – like I guess the thing is, is like I – I’m – as I – I feel like I’m getting better, I’m starting to get my own routines and my own drive to do things. And I sometimes feel that that sort of leaves Jeremy out of it.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And he feels sad, and then I feel sad because he feels sad.

THERAPIST: It sounds like you guys are struggling with how much interdependence you have and how much independence you have –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – from one another and how much can your routine – how much can your personal routines –

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: – be – be different and allow you to be independent from one another. And how – how much time do you guys need – you know, need to be sort of on the same page and doing the same thing.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And it sounds like he’s really wanting a lot more – you know, togetherness and a lot more similarity between your routines and the schedule and flow during the day than what you need.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, with everything from matching your eating behaviors to matching, you know, what – what your – you know, you’re going to – your peak work times are.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And in some ways that’s been helpful for you to maintain a little bit more structure, but in other ways, it sounds like you’re losing some of your – your voice.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So – your ability to say, ‘I’d like that – walking in the rain right now is not what I want to do.’

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs)

THERAPIST: ‘If you want to go take a walk, feel free.’ [00:13:58]

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs)

THERAPIST: And that’s not not compromising.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, and I guess that’s the – you know, I – I think one thing that – with more to do on the weekends, is that – oh, you know, one thing that I don’t want to do it, but I really like to do once I’ve done it is go to dance in the morning.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Because I really like dance. I hate – I hate exercising, but I – once I’m in class and I’m there and I’m already sort of sweating and yucky –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – I really like it and I enjoy it. And so I found that, you know, I’ll hop in and he can meet me after dance –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – because I’ve done something that I want to do and by him walking me to dance or meeting me after dance –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – he is walking –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. He gets his walk in.

CLIENT: – and we can walk somewhere.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I found that, you know, in that sense like –

THERAPIST: Yeah, that’s a great compromise.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that sort of thing as – something I have to work on is like, by nature, I don’t like telling people what to do.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like I wish they would just do as I will it (laughs), you know, but that – which is why I would never be a good leader. But – but in the same sense, like I sort of realized that it’s – it’s frustrating for me to – because like I’m just not the – the way I’ve worked has never been sort of a compromise. I’ve always been sort of like – when I really would get into something, there’s like –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – it’s hard for me to slow down and compromise, but I sort of see that maybe I need to sort of work on maybe a sustainable model of something. [00:15:30]

THERAPIST: Well, I think in some ways what I hear happening is – it’s – you’re – not that you need to tell him what to do, but that you do need to tell him what you are going to do. Like at dinner –

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: – you know, you pointed out which things sounded really yummy to you. You didn’t order for yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you don’t need to order for him –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – which would be telling him what to do –

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: – but you can say, ‘That sounds really yummy. I’m going to get that.’ He can pick whatever things he wants to have, keeping in mind whatever he’s going to have for dinner.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: But allowing you to have your independent voice, not necessarily impose it on him –

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: – but to – you know, that doesn’t have to change what he orders for himself or what he has for dinner.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So I think being able to keep and retain the decisions you make for yourself without having them necessarily be hoisted on him –

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that’s – I mean, the sort of – I sort of know – like we like pretty much the same things. And like we share – like when we go out to eat, like we share it like family style.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I know if I would have requested that salad, even though it was probably a lot like the thing he really wanted, he would have really enjoyed it as well. [00:16:45]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I think that if he would have – I mean, just sort of like he wants to get cats, just because he knows it will make me happy –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – and I just – you know, I – you know, like if I ordered something that I really wanted, he would probably enjoy it, because I was really happy, rather than –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – I mean, I remember when we went to eat at another restaurant a long while ago, and like the menu looked very frightening – it was frightening to the unadventurous. Like it had fried grasshoppers and lots of seafood options, which – like squid, (inaudible) sort of – you know, can deal with. And, you know, that night, I just – I didn’t pick anything, I was kind of –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – he was like, ‘Well, what good – what looks good to you? Like, do you want to order this?’

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And I really wasn’t – you know, I guess because I wasn’t mentally prepared, but like he was really upset that I didn’t order anything –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – or I didn’t find anything interesting. [00:17:45]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And it sort of – it makes me sort of think now that, you know, maybe asserting my opinion – maybe it, you know – maybe it’s actually a good thing, because then he sort of knows when I’m actually (sic) want something –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – and I’m also happy and really looking forward to something.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Like I – I that’s kind of – you know like, I guess – and maybe it’s not the thing he was looking for, but –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – you know, the fact that I’m, you know, actively sort of pursuing – you know, and maybe that’s – you know, I saw – saw that at lunch when I had maybe not the same lunch as him, but I was actively pursuing something that was, you know, probably healthy for me –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – and he, I guess – yeah. I need to work on –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – being more assertive and not feeling guilty.

THERAPIST: What – what do you end up feeling when you don’t assert your – your choice, your voice? [00:18:45]

CLIENT: Well, when I don’t assert my voice, I get like, ‘Ugh, do I have to?’ And I get sort of bitter, like, ‘Oh, we always do what Jeremy wants to do.’ And I actually said that on our walk, because like I was like, ‘Ugh.’ And he was like, ‘Oh, why don’t we go to this Turkish’ – he’s like, ‘Why don’t we go to this Turkish store now?’ And I was like, ‘Oh, well finally we can’ – oh, wait, where – he’s like, ‘Where – we can get some baklava for you.’ And I was like, ‘Finally, he phrases it in terms of my terms.’

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And then I said that and he was like, ‘Whoa.’

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: ‘Where did that come from?’ And I was just like, ‘Where did that come from?’

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And so I was slightly –

THERAPIST: Angry?

CLIENT: Yeah. Just because I sort of felt like, you know, I mean – Sunday I didn’t feel like going to dance class, we had to walk through the snow and slush and get dripped on from the awnings. [00:19:54]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I mean, everyone was walking about on Sunday, because it was, you know, kind of like a – after the accident –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – you always want to get out or – but, you know – so I realized it was good for me, but in the sense like I – because I wasn’t asserting my opinion, I was kind of like Eeyore, from Winnie the Pooh. (laughs)

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: And I just sort of – you know, and I feel bad and I know it – you know, I went back some, because I mean excitement sort of breeds upon like more excitement –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – as opposed to –

THERAPIST: But when you’re feeling like you haven’t been able to have a say, you end up feeling, like you said bitter –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – resentful, angry.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That’s not – that’s not – that doesn’t feel good for either one of you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess – I mean, that’s the sort of – and it caused – at night, I’m taking a teaching class right now. It’s like the course of the future – designing the course of the future. And you know, it’s a real sort of stress on students participating, being engaged and active, and I guess I sort of think about what is that – you know, how is it in the relationship?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Like being engaged and sort of giving and taking. Like maybe a student doesn’t want to do this assignment, but they sort of see, you know, what the teacher – maybe the teacher doesn’t want to be interactive with the student –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – but they both sort of compromise and you are engaging and learning from each other.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. So as the teacher, what do you do to keep the student engaged and participating? This is not a test question.

CLIENT: Yeah (laughs).

THERAPIST: It’s a parallel. [00:21:27]

CLIENT: A parallel. Well, with Jeremy it would be like, you know, keeping him – finding a way – like integrating things that he wants to do, like going for walks –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – and you know, eating lots of vegetables, and you know, finding ways to keep him like connected to those things –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – while not sacrificing my own sort of – what I want. And like for instance, like on Saturday, the teacher would take their pupil for a walk after –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – they did what they wanted to do, which was go to dance class.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And the pupil, you know, was assigned – you know, given the assignment, you have to walk around.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And that was a good compromise, because I got to do what I wanted and they got to do what they wanted. But in the same sense, it wasn’t like walk around first thing in the morning.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And you know, in that sense, I guess, with eating at a restaurant, it would be like picking out what I wanted to eat and the pupil – maybe that wasn’t his favorite thing to do –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – but – still enjoy from it and –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – you know, got to – because he ordered something that they want, you know. I guess – yeah. I mean, I guess – maybe the sort of indefinite – because I’m still trying to develop my course. [00:22:46]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: There’s no syllabus yet, but I sort of see that – you know, no teacher has full control over their students, and no student has full control over what they’re taught. They have even less control. But I guess, you know, in graduate school, like it is sort of a give and – I’ve noticed it is a give and take sort of learning experience.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Where there’s certain content that you need to do, like you need to spend time with this – and – and parallel, you need to spend time with your significant other, you know, because there’s no sort of substitute for spending time.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Like, you can – there’s no such thing, I think, as quality time, because I mean a lot of like – I – I think that just spending lots of time, because things sort of come up.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Like if you just say, you know something – like if he was really upset or some night, I could be like, ‘Oh, well this is not the day we hang out’ –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – ‘so sorry.’ You know?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: It was just – it’s – it’s very sort of malleable. But I think it’s – yeah, I – yeah, I think I’m definitely still trying to – I think Jeremy is definitely learning and – what to do now that he’s not the absolute number one. [00:24:07]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You know, what to do when – it’s not as traditional as it started out to be.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And you know, in one sense it’s – I think he feels lucky that he has someone that’s very intellectual and exercises, like has all these things.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: But there’s also – I can’t be a superwoman. And I’ve already given up on that. But I think now just sort of learning to speak my voice and – but also learning how to compromise.

THERAPIST: Hmm. Yes, so there’s room for both of your voices.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You hear what he wants, but you also need to be able to hear, and he needs to be able to hear you when you say what you want.

CLIENT: Yeah. And another thing that came up this week was my sister – I sort of like – because she’s been calling and like calling a lot. And like she found out that – she’s had surgery on both hips. Hip number one like four years ago – or like two – two years ago. The other hip just recently. But the first hip that she had the surgery in, she thinks she has another tear in it.

THERAPIST: Oh no.

CLIENT: And so it’s really hard because I know that the way she deals with the pain, it’s – I know that her marriage is a little bit in danger –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – the fact that she’s been out of college with large student loans from a pharmacy degree, and she hasn’t worked yet. [00:25:49]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And so there’s – you know, there’s – there’s things that I would like to say, like, ‘If you had an infinite amount of money, yes, I would want you to have the surgery, I want you to be healthy, and I’m sorry.’ But there’s also things – real life things, like, ‘You have loans that your husband alone can’t pay off. And you know, you’re not a very good contributor when you’re at home and you’re not doing anything.’

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I mean, of course, if I said that there would be tears saying that, ‘I can’t. I’m in so much pain.’ And you know, I have – there’s – I mean, she’s kind of a in her own sort of world sort of person. Like I guess if I –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – if she calls me up, she – you know, like when the whole blizzard came, she was more upset about what someone had told her on the Internet about the prospects of being a pharmacist what – with chronic pain and using Vicodin.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Like someone on a pain forum just basically said that – all these things, like she would never be able to have kids, she’ll have to change her job –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – and like all this sort of hateful stuff. I was like – and you know, she was really upset, that she needed a hug –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – and I was like, ‘There’s other things going on.’

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Like I was very – I mean, you know, I’m not looking for sympathy, but it’s just it’s kind of like – I have – my well is dry. [00:27:09]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And so I just basically wrote a message that like – you know, if you had a professional question, why didn’t you ask your own resources –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – such as your own godmother, who’s a pharmacist, or grandma, who’s a pharmacist.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: The person that you worked with, if you had a question. And second of all, why are you like holding much stock in what someone on the Internet –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – you’ve never met, you’ve never seen them, they’re not in the profession – yeah, they said something mean and stupid, but you don’t know them. They could just be angry. I mean, if they’re someone saying the sky is green, you’re not going to take them seriously and cry over it, you know? And you know, so I was slightly yelling and I felt kind of bad, and I obsessed over being –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – I mean, I – I – I didn’t call her stupid.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I just said, ‘You know, why are you’ – you know, I – I took it a couple of lines, but it just – it got –

THERAPIST: What were you feeling?

CLIENT: Like – like I was feeling like, ‘Good God, haven’t like – I can’t even’ – I was really frustrated and annoyed –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – because part of me feels bad that she feels bad.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I’m another human being, I love my sister, I don’t want her to be upset.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I don’t want her – anyone to steer her, because she’s now applying for jobs for like a part-time pharmacy job.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And I think this is really good for her because it will supply income, it will get her going, and –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – be a distraction from the pain, so I was really excited.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And then when she was like, ‘Oh, I don’t know if I can do this,’ and she talked about switching pain medications, I was like, ‘Why do we have to make this drama – dramatic?’ See I get – I just –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – plus, I read the message right when I woke up, so I was kind of like I was already in a –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – not a mood to be messed with and – or you know, you wake up. It’s in the morning. I kind of have like a buffer, noon to 5:00 pm –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – is when I can take these dramatic phone calls, and – because at least I have dance or you know, maybe wine with dinner, but (laughs) I just – I get upset because – you know, I mean, in one sense, I get upset because it’s just – it – it – she’s upset. I get upset because it’s annoying to have to retell her the same things –

THERAPIST: Hmm. Yeah.

CLIENT: – and it’s also annoying because – I get upset because she doesn’t care about what I’m feeling, what I’m doing. She’s very absorbed in her own little world. And you know, we all have problems and it’s good to talk about them, but –

THERAPIST: But you don’t want it to be a back and forth, and so you feel like you’re putting out – she’s not really taking in what you’re putting out, and she doesn’t – and it doesn’t feel like she’s giving back? [00:30:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think part of it – like she’s like, ‘Oh, I – I weighed myself and I was 130. I’m no longer an anorexic weight anymore.’ I was like, ‘What – what kind of – you know, who says things like – do you think this is a good thing or a bad thing?’

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You know? I – I sort of feel like – I guess, yeah there is – it’s kind of like not on the same wavelength.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. It feels like she’s trying to be kind of provocative –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – to get a response – get a dramatic response.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Trying.

CLIENT: And I just – I don’t want things to be dramatic. I’m –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – I hate to be too much like a man, but I want – or a traditional, stereotypical man, and be like logical and suggest this, and it changes, but –

THERAPIST: Well, there’s a big – there’s a big area between being, you know, being totally devoid of affect, and being dramatic.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like there’s room to have genuine emotion in there.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But to feel like she’s maybe kind of putting barbs out there to try to provoke a big response –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – that’s – it feels manipulative.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I guess – I mean, I never told her that she’s being manipulative –

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: – or that I don’t like her phone calls or – instead I just don’t pick up the phone.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And then I feel bad when there’s like three missed calls –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – and I guess Facebook is where you really do have to look at it –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – I mean, you know, I – I don’t want to de-friend her.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: That’s stupid, because that’s just irrational, but – yeah, I mean, I just – I mean, I don’t know. How do you deal with someone that is – and I mean, I know that she could use therapy and I suggest that when she –

THERAPIST: You can’t be her therapist. [00:31:55]

CLIENT: That’s what I said. I said, that, you know, ‘Where’s my bill?’ (laughs)

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: I – yeah, I – and – and I was joking, but I was being passive-aggressive, like – you know, I just can’t be talking to someone who’s crying every day. And I guess maybe that’s something that I should, you know, suggest to her, that – you know, I can offer advice, but you know, but I just can’t be listening to – I mean, my mom said that – you know, told my sister that she’s not allowed to talk about any pain-related things around her, because my sister –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – you know, and in a sense – because my mom got annoyed because she has her own – I mean, she’s had five back surgeries now and –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – she’s in pain every day, but she doesn’t talk about it. You can see it in her face –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – but you know – and so – it’s just interesting to see how two different people deal with the –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – one more matter-of-fact and more like –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – it’s a private sort of burden, and because of that, I feel more sympathy for my mom, and understanding then – I – I flew down into Florida, where my mom had surgery. But with my sister, I wasn’t there to really bathe her and watch over her. And of course, I mean, she has a husband and –

THERAPIST: So does your mom. [00:33:22]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think, you know, it’s – it’s interesting because in some ways the same – some of the same strategies work in both your relationship with your boyfriend and with your sister. Coming from different areas, it’s not like Jeremy’s work – trying to provoke you in the same way, and it’s not like – and it doesn’t seem like his intent is at all like self-interest, um, in the way that it feels your sister is focusing primarily on her own needs and not –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – you know, acknowledging that you have your own set of needs. But in some ways, the making space for your voice and your needs to be heard and – and setting some boundaries about where the other person’s – you know, setting boundaries, you know with your boyfriend, but where does he get to make decisions? He doesn’t really get to make decisions about what you eat for lunch. That’s a boundary. With your sister, the boundary of how much time is appropriate for her to get from you?

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: You know, daily phone calls might be too much. [00:34:29]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And – and your needs come in there, you know, your need to have space from hearing about how upset she is.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: It’s really hard to hear about someone who feels badly.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: And while you’re not unfeeling for her, hearing about it doesn’t actually make a difference. It – it doesn’t make her feel better for you to hear about it every day.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So the idea of sort of like what – what’s an appropriate amount time that you can give her, and setting that boundary. And you know, it might be by not – not picking up the phone every time she calls, or by setting up a – you know, letting her know what your schedule is and saying like, ‘These are good times for me to talk to you.’

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: You know, calling at other times, she doesn’t get you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It sounds like you do – you need some limits.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I guess, you know, I sort of know that – I mean, there’s times like right off – you know, very often she’ll call like right before she – I mean, she’ll call any time, like right before she has a doctor appointment, right after. And like, you know –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – of course, she’s emotionally charged. Like she’ll just call whenever, and I think by having these times to be like set, and she can actually like process rather than just be –

THERAPIST: Rather than getting the fresh –

CLIENT: – spew –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – and then that way, I mean – you know, that’s one thing, after I wrote her the message and like later she called on Sunday night, and like she called during dinner. And I was like, ‘Well, I’m not going to answer this.’

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But then, you know, later I called her up, and she seemed much – like after I wrote her the message, like, you know, you just got to calm down –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – and like, you know, we could laugh about it. But in the same sense, like – I sort of realized that by giving her time to process it, there was a –

THERAPIST: It was better for both of you.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I think maybe that’s a good thing, is to, you know, like when she gets in a streak of calling a lot, just say, you know, that there are certain days that are good for me and – you know, especially because I’m really busy. [00:36:32]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Yeah. And if when – when it comes time to set that boundary, being able to phrase it in a positive way, like, these days are really good days for me to be able to have time to talk to you. So you talk about when it – when you’re going to be able to give her what she wants –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – rather than saying, ‘I can’t talk to you every day.’

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: You know, ‘These times are really bad for me,’ or what – rather than telling her what she can’t have –

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: – letting her know what she can have –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – will be easier probably for her to accept.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And it makes it a more successful – kind of presentation –

CLIENT: Yeah. No, that – that really makes sense. The, you know, really positive – and just phrasing things in a positive way –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – even though it may not be the most positive news –

THERAPIST: Right, she’s not getting everything she wants, but you’re focusing on what she is getting. And it just, I think, makes it a little bit easier for her to hear, easier for her to hopefully accept.

CLIENT: Yeah. A lot of this, it’s interesting, because right now we’re trying to understand the psychology of the student in the classroom, and we were reading through syllabus. And like, you know, there’s a lot things that, you know, just that being positive with the students about what they’re going to learn and –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – that – you know, that – ‘This course is going to be a lot of work, but from it you will obtain this, this, and this.’

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And – rather than like, ‘If you’re not interested in doing a lot of work, you know, get out of this class.’ [00:38:00]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Or, ‘Don’t sign up.’ And you know, just sort of seeing that that’s the way people –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – feel –

THERAPIST: Yeah. Students are people.

CLIENT: Yeah (laughs), I know, I know.

THERAPIST: They remain being people before and after.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I can – I – I – you know, we were starting to, I guess, reflect upon his own teaching course and like ways like –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – you know, maybe I’d have to change the paradigm in my own life.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And dealing with people.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Especially the busier I get, the less able – the less –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – conscious I am over like – the less tolerant I am of people –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – because I go, go, go, get off this T.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Get – and you know, I found myself like getting kind of frustrated with people more frequently –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – because it’s like, ‘Well, I need to get this work done.’

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: ‘Why are you talking to me? Why is this music playing,’ and –

THERAPIST: Yeah, those are good signs to yourself when you notice yourself feeling frustrated that you’re maybe over-scheduled or –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – overwhelmed.

CLIENT: Yeah, and – yeah. So I think these are definitely things that I can – I’m going to start trying to work on –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – is setting boundaries, but in a positive way. And like letting people – also like realizing – like working on the guilt factor. [00:39:19]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Because I feel guilty a lot, like when someone’s unhappy, like –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – it’s kind of like – maybe the analogy of when you tell your child that you know, you’re doing something bad or you’re not doing something right, they’re going to feel upset –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – because no one – but, you know, part of that is realizing that it’s for the greater good –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – and I have that – if it’s not an instant reaction of reflection and, ‘Oh, you’re right.’

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Because I always try and do that, like if someone chastises me, I try and quickly accept and show that, you know, what they told me wasn’t wrong, but ok, I understand. I feel bad.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I mean, even though, that’s probably kind of annoying –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – for probably the person, I guess sometimes like – like I don’t know. I sort of – I feel bad – I guess I feel bad when I complain, but in a sense, maybe that’s telling me that there – I should have fixed this situation before there was a reason to complain.

THERAPIST: Hmm. Well, sometimes it’s hard to anticipate –

CLIENT: Yeah, (laughs), yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, there may be sometimes when you can anticipate, but not all of them.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So I think being realistic with yourself, what really is under your control –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – and what’s not, doesn’t seem fair to hold yourself responsible for things you couldn’t control. [00:40:42]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So you have to do that check with yourself, which things – which things are under your control, what’s not, what are you responsible for, and what are you not responsible for.

CLIENT: This turned into – this seems for me like it would be a – like if I start to feel guilty, it’s kind of like an impulse feeling, like when I get about like, ‘Gross,’ and start freaking out.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Because, you know, occasionally I do do that, but then I’m just – I have to tell myself, ‘I have to calm down.’

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: ‘That was gross, it could have been grosser. And it’s not unsafe.’ And maybe I have to say when I feel guilty – like I should work on saying that, ‘I feel guilty, it’s an impulse reaction, but it was out of my control. And I’ll do it better next time.’ Or I’ll sort of, you know, just chalk it up to life sucks sometimes or –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – you know – and yeah. I like – I like playing the games, I like these little things to tell myself, like –

THERAPIST: Yeah, well the way that you talk to yourself can really impact how you react to something.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: If something toxic goes on in your head, it can be pretty powerful.

CLIENT: Yes, for better or for worse.

THERAPIST: Well, so use it for good. Right? If it’s power, use your power for good.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Why don’t we wrap up there for today, and then next time, you’re a Monday morning?

CLIENT: Yeah, Monday morning –

THERAPIST: Barring any snowstorms or –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – illnesses or all these other things that have muffed up the schedule. So I have us for the 25th, so two weeks?

CLIENT: Yeah, that’s right. [00:42:21]

THERAPIST: At 9:30.

CLIENT: All right. I know there’s a checkbook in here.

THERAPIST: Do you need a pen? I can hear – hear one clicking away.

CLIENT: Yeah (laughs). I sort of found like – I wasn’t sure if I was going to work out privately like at a gym or something, do dance, but I sort of know that that – between these two bags, I’m covered with what I need to bring.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: Let’s see, what date is it?

THERAPIST: Today is the 12th.

CLIENT: Kind of like if you bring one purse, you’re normally missing something, but if you bring everything –

THERAPIST: That’s a lot to carry. [00:43:10]

CLIENT: Yeah (laughs). It’s my secondary person, next to the T, is my bags.

END TRANSCRIPT