TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: So – well things – I mean – well, after we had talked on Friday, I don’t know why, I guess I was – maybe brought up things more – maybe like, you know, brought up a lot of feelings and that night Jeremy and I like – it seemed to – like we were having a good dinner. But then when we were like – we were watching Jon Stewart and for some reason, I don’t – like I’ve been very sensitive about, you know, who hurts whose feelings. And maybe I have some like – like that – like sad feelings for – or you know, maybe feelings of guilt for not being Republican or for watching things that, you know – I don’t know. It’s a whole mixture of things, things that are like, ‘Well, I don’t agree with it,’ or like I’m not sure of. Maybe I agree with it, but I don’t feel like I should be teasing these people. And then also like the falling of the Twinkies, for some reason that just hit a sore spot. I mean, I don’t eat Twinkies or Ho-Hos. But I know at one time I ate Twinkies, and like I like Edy’s Ice Cream and like I was sad – I was – like there’s many sad things in life, and when a company goes, it’s always kind of sad, even though I’m – you know, people tend to connect Hostess with causing diabetes.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, I was just sad that – you know, that Jon Stewart was making all of these jokes about, you know, Hostess being like – you know, like – I just, you know – just – just sort of making fun of it.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I – I just – for some reason, it started with the Twinkies, and then it just – you know, we had kind of a big – kind of like I got really upset. And like – I mean, just like – you know, like Jeremy wasn’t agreeing with me.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: He was like, ‘Well, I don’t know.’ He was like, ‘I don’t have any homage or sort of love of Twinkies.’ He was like, ‘What can – you know, what can I say?’ You know, it’s – you know, in terms of like even like – you know, they didn’t adapt to the changing market, which tends to like healthier food. [02:10:16]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like for instance, the organic food movement, or green washing.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I mean, Hostess meant – you know, stuck to the sort of – you know, what they were doing, and they were having like struggles within their company. But I mean, I just got so mad. And I mean I – and so, you know, eventually I went to the – went to the room because I was just getting so mad at Jon Stewart and at Jeremy seeming to defend Jon Stewart.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And then I – you know, when I went into the bedroom just to go into a different room, the door – I meant to close it, but I kind of closed it quickly and it slammed. And at first I was going to apologize. I was like, ‘Well, maybe the slam was like – maybe I don’t want to take back that slam.’

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like it happened on accident and I didn’t mean for it. But I was like, you know, I’m kind of mad and he deserves to know that I’m mad. And then later I came out and apologized and I started crying and you know –

THERAPIST: What were you really mad about?

CLIENT: Well, I think what I – you know, because I thought about it a lot, and so I was like, ‘Why do I slam doors?’ And you know – I think a lot of it was just stress about going home and not being accepted and having – you know, it was a lot of déjà vu from my last – former relationship. [03:24:01]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Where, you know – I mean, you know, it’s a mild – very mild association –

THERAPIST: Going home – home to your apartment with him or home to Florida to the –

CLIENT: Going home to Florida. Yeah, going home to Florida to be living in sin, to have a boyfriend that watches things that aren’t Fox News or like – you know, or like – and – and you know, it’s sort of like how he wanted me to watch Jon Stewart with him.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It reminded me of my ex-boyfriend, how he would want me to watch things –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – that are poking fun at the Republicans, which are my parents.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And, you know it’s – you know, I guess – you know, it’s good not to take things too seriously, but you know, I don’t like when people are mean, even if it is sort of a joke. I mean, I can understand, you know, if – you know, it’s one thing to call someone out, but to make fun of them, like, you know, Jon Stewart showing a lady crying about a Twinkie. I was like, ‘Well, maybe she’s sad.’ I mean, you know, we’re sad for all different reasons. I guess, you know, I sort of saw that I don’t like things that are mean-spirited. But I think, you know – I think I was more just sort of upset. It just was sort of like a déjà vu of feeling of like feeling like the – sort of rejection and the – the potential rejection, the conflict, and I think it was just too much. Like I just got mad at life and, you know, the fact that Jeremy wasn’t doing anything. He – he wasn’t like, you know, making things better or – you know. And in a sense maybe is not someone to make it better. [05:07:14]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I mean, yeah, he could have – engaged to me (inaudible), but – and then there’s that sort of – like, you know, ‘Why are you doing’ – you’re doing something not because it’s genuine, but to please someone.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Or to make a situation less com – to reduce the conflict –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – in a – in a situation. And you know, I don’t want that. It’s just kind of like a –

THERAPIST: What do you want?

CLIENT: Well, I want – I want things – I want not to be able to worry about it. I want not to feel so guilty about saying – to like having different – you know, maybe different political thoughts.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And also to be able to, you know, not be like – feel bad for not also watching Jon Stewart, because like it’s Friday night. Normally, we like to spend time together. But you know, if it’s not doing something that I like, then I feel this conflict. Like, ‘I really don’t want to watch this or listen to it, because I think it sounds mean.’ But you know, I don’t want to be in a different room on our together night.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And you know, there are ways to resolve that, like we could maybe be listening to headphones and stuff.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Is – is there something that you would both enjoy?

CLIENT: Yeah, cooking. And that’s –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – you know, that’s later what we – more or less what we’ve been watching at night. [06:36:05]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like there’s – on like Chow Hound, there’s these things called obsessive, and these people are like super into like cake decorating or – I – sometimes Master Chef or like – we don’t have a TV, but there’s definitely like lots –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – between cooking blogs and Hulu, there’s a lot of cooking things, or sometimes we could watch movies on Netflix –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – which it’s also sometimes like – it can be frustrating sometimes because we have different movie tastes. And like, I like more like foreign films, black and white films with the subtitles, introspective, sort of like –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – not so much scenery, but more like cerebral. And he likes action –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – sort of like James Bond, but we even went to the James Bond movie and he didn’t like that one, because it was too much action, not enough plot.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And you know, it was like I – I couldn’t say anything.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I was like, ‘Isn’t that what a Bond film is supposed to be about?’ (laughs) And you know, so it – it’s kind of – or you know, or comedies. [07:44:00]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And you know, sometimes I like comedies. But I sort of feel like if I’m watching a movie, I want to think about it and – you know, I guess there’s a middle line where we cross over –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – like we watched “Dancing (sic) With Wolves” but he fell asleep.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Which was probably better, because then like – because sometimes when it gets serious, like we watched “I Am – I Am Love.” And it’s quite a sensual sort of film, and he was like, ‘This sucks, man.’ And it was just like, ‘Boo,’ and just sort of joking. And I was like, ‘Ok, well, you know – (laughs) I get it.’ It’s –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – you know, it sort of is like, ‘Can’t we experience this film in our own like’ – you know – and I just – I don’t know why like – I’m sort of starting to see like there’s sometimes like I really appreciate and enjoy his time, but other times, it’s like, ‘Keep – tone it down a little bit.’ Like in the morning he’s like so excited. He reminds me of like a little revved up puppy that just woke up. And I was like, I haven’t – I mean, maybe it’s just me. Maybe I’m – you know, maybe I – maybe it’s just like the end of the semester and I’m tired or just irritated with life, with my sort of like –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – I want my project to work out and it sort of goes slow and I’m arguing with my group members about stupid things on my project – on our class project. And you know, I – I don’t know why I’m feeling so irritated recently –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – or maybe it’s just the stress of going home and you know, just not being able to clearly focus on my work or – but you know, I’ve just been all sort of irritated an like even with like – and you know, I sent like – this morning, we – we wound up getting in kind of like a – kind of an argument about border control. It started with us talking about the legalization of marijuana in Colorado – in Colorado state and how are they going to enforce – you know, do sort of federal – federal and state separation of powers. [09:53:06]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And like you know, if you have marijuana in Colorado state, how are they going to prevent it from going to other states? And he was like (inaudible). I was like, ‘Well, when I was a kid, I was like when we’ – I was like, ‘Couldn’t they put some sort of border patrol and check cars? I mean, this is what I remembered when I was kid, going up through the Florida – we were driving from Mississippi all the way up through Colorado. And of course, we passed through like New Mexico and Florida. And I was like, ‘You know, I remember that when we went – got up to that border they did check our car. They check everyone’s car.’

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: ‘And we had to make sure we didn’t have like any produce from Arizona, because they have strict agricultural laws in Florida.’ So I said that. And he was like, ‘Wait, wait, wait. You know, that doesn’t make sense.’ He’s like, ‘So you’re saying that they have border patrols, you know, all over Florida at every – on every single road?’ And I was like, ‘Well’ – I was like I don’t know. I said that they had it along this road.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: You know, and I was like, ‘I can recall this’ – you know, I said that – you know, being in New England, I see that – I go into Maine, there’s no border control there. I was like, ‘But in Florida, they did have it.’ And I was like, you know. And he was like, ‘Ok, well’ – I mean, he seemed very incredulous to –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – like he didn’t negate that I didn’t have that experience –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – but he did sort of negate like – ‘Seriously, they check every car? I mean, that’s got to take a lot of time. And you know, how are they even going to like – how does that happen? Is it on every road?’ And I was just like, ‘I don’t know.’ [11:24:09]

THERAPIST: You were feeling really attacked?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: For your idea.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I was like, ‘This experience happened.’

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: ‘And it makes sense that – you know, there’s a reason why this experience happened rather than just being a random instance of government control.’ And you know, so I looked it up at the table and I found that, uh-huh, they do have regulations on plants and fruits and it is at the border. But you know – and later I looked up that there was a list of border control – you know, there’s a list of border control places, and as it is, it’s in places that are most likely to get traffic of illegal agricultural substances or immigrants. And they would be like at the base of – you know, it’s in the San Diego sector, the El Centro sector of California. So it’s not in every state. But it is states that are –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – you know, may – it’s on major highways. And so, you know, it wound up that we were both right.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But in the same sense, like, I mean –

THERAPIST: It sounds like it’s not so much about who was right or wrong, but you felt attacked in the way that the conversation happened.

CLIENT: Well, yeah, and I felt like that it’s not like he felt that he was going to look it up. [12:38:04]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like, if I would have just said, ‘Oh, yeah. Maybe – you know, maybe that – maybe I was crazy’ –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – you know, we would have gone on – you know, it’s not like he would have looked up like saying, ‘Oh, you know, maybe I’m wrong.’

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: It’s like, why do I feel like it – you know, it feels like – you know, it is a serious debate. First of all, it’s breakfast in the morning. I –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – you know, I try and you know, think about – it would be nice to just sort of think about what – you know, what e-mails I got last night, what do I need to focus on.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And you know, this morning, it’s more like I was getting enraged over borders, and I felt like –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – I did feel attacked. And you know, I – he was like, ‘Well, I’m not trying to negate what you experienced.’ I was like, ‘Well’ – I was like, ‘Yeah, you’re not – you’re not negating that I had that experience, but you still think I’m not – you know, everything I’m saying is wrong.’

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And you know, he sort of looks at me and – you know, later – you know, we agreed that we were both right. But it was the process. It wasn’t – like I really – it really does feel like he’s arguing maybe like – I hear him when he talks to his mom and it’s sort of like, ‘No, you’re crazy.’

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: It’s sort of like, ‘Oh, no, you’re talking nonsense.’ And I hate the way he does that because I mean, I experience this all the time in physics. [13:53:05]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Like, I mean, you know, it is good to have sort of like –

THERAPIST: Who – who makes you feel that way in physics?

CLIENT: Well, like my group members, like – like this one guy in our group, Robert, was like, ‘Oh, I really didn’t understand this figure.’ I was like, ‘Oh, so what they’re really doing is this.’ And so I explained. And then this other guy Mason, he’s the perfectionist, and he was just like, ‘No. No, you’re wrong.’ And I was like, ‘No, no, no. I think I’m right.’ And then like – and he was like, ‘No, no, no. It was really like this.’ And I was like, ‘Ok.’ And then finally the Robert guy thinks – does some reading. He’s like, ‘No, no, no. Mason, I think you’re wrong. I think Janet is right.’

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I was like I’m just tired of – I was like, ‘Can’t I just be right? Like, why does everything have to be questioned or like’ –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: – and it continues. I did say something wrong in an e-mail today with the – with my presentation group. And like now I feel like really stupid.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Or like I’m not sure – like – you know I like – because I was talking to my friend who has done work in this field. And my understanding – like I sort of wrongly associated a wrong terminology for the phenomenon –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – and then so this guy sent an e-mail saying, ‘Oh, no, this terminology is used in a different sense, you know, that it has nothing to do with that and you know’ – I don’t know. I’m just like – I was like, ‘He’s right.’ And I shouldn’t be upset when I do say something wrong because, you know, that’s not the way science works. [15:19:09]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: You know, if someone can just say, ‘You know, I think the sky is red’ –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – you know, you would have to come up with some sort of legitimate proof. So that – I mean, that’s good. But I just –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – I guess I’m just kind of touchy and I was like – like I just – I want to feel appreciated and not like attacked or not like –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – I don’t know, I just sort of feel like I’m always having to defend myself. And it – it’s –

THERAPIST: It just feels like you’re having to defend yourself in many different spheres of your life?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Where it may be appropriate –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – in science to have to defend your views?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It doesn’t feel like it’s appropriate at home with your family or at home with your boyfriend or in a group of your friends, I mean, even your science friends.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: There are times, maybe, when it feels appropriate for – to have to present yourself in such a way – in an academic way –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – and then there may be times when you want to be able to have more casual conversation.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s – I mean – you know, I mean definitely I wouldn’t put it into a presentation until I knew like I could cite it from a source and – you know, but – you know, generally when you’re just talking –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – ‘Oh, you know, I think it’s referred to as this.’

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And instead of saying like, ‘No’ – like there’s such an emphasis on like this sort of – I mean, or maybe I just – I mean, I – it’s – it’s interesting. I sort of see that, you know, some circumstances are kind of crappy. Like, for instance, the ballet thing. It’s crappy, but I take it as an extra sort of dig, a personal dig. And I mean, I think –

THERAPIST: And it’s not personal there.

CLIENT: It’s – I mean, it’s as personal as I – you know, as – for everyone, you know?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. [17:07:01]

CLIENT: I mean, you know, if they – it was more like they just didn’t care, instead of like they didn’t –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – they weren’t planning on making me suffer, but –

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: – I mean, you know, it is what it is. And –

THERAPIST: Well, they probably – in the ballet instance, they weren’t. There probably wasn’t a group thinking, ‘How is this particularly going to affect Janet?’

CLIENT: Yes (laughs). I know, I agree.

THERAPIST: In your – in your group – in your project group, that is – I mean, they were responding to you, specifically.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so that is personal and thinking about what’s the communication pattern there that reinforces this dynamic where you’re on the defensive.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, that’s a little bit different than – you know, the dance situation where nobody was constructing that particular try-out process or categorization process with you in mind. I mean, you had to go through it, it does affect you, but –

CLIENT: No one had me – I mean, they didn’t even know me –

THERAPIST: No one had you in mind.

CLIENT: Yeah. So –

THERAPIST: But these other places are, you know, more uniquely felt by you.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I have to sort of learn how to like – I mean, are there ways to diffuse the situation, I mean, if someone is attacking you?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Or like – most – in most cases, I sort of – just sort of like, you know, run away. But in a certain –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – you can’t just run away from your conflicts, or your –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – sort of attacks. I mean, because it – there’s times that – I guess, you know hold your ground. Or I like – what makes it –

THERAPIST: How do you hold your ground?

CLIENT: Well, I guess, continuing to present my argument, which sometimes it seems to cause more conflict, voices seemed to get more raised.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: It just doesn’t – it seems like a – like who can hold up their argument the longest –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – before the other person gives in.

THERAPIST: Like a staring contest?

CLIENT: Yeah (laughs). Kind of bad at those.

THERAPIST: So I mean, I think what you’re really experiencing is – is you’re having a lot of confrontations. [19:10:06]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I think there are more productive ways and less productive ways to have a confrontation. And I think your goal is to be able to have a really productive confrontation –

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: – where it’s not just – you know two – there’s two pieces where you want to have – you want to have both parties feel like they were respected in a conversation.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So that’s one piece of sort of really effective confrontation. And the other piece is you do want to come to some sort of resolution.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so I think maybe, you know, one way to start working on this is rather then – you know – so you kind of state your thing –

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: – someone tells you that you’re wrong. It sounds like what’s happening right now is you can restate and restate –

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: – and then they can keep telling you you’re wrong, keep telling you you’re wrong. And that’s like a tug of war. You know, you keep saying your thing, they keep saying their thing.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Someone’s eventually going to give in or fall down.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That doesn’t necessarily feel very respectable.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So another – another tactic might be rather than just restating your position, before you go on to do that, or – and before you go on to gather your evidence for your position –

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: – empathize with what their position is.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It’s almost like you’re taking time to state what the problem is. [20:33:03]

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: Hmm. You know, ‘I just said that the sky is red. And you’re telling me that it’s not. So it seems like we disagree.’

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: It seems really obvious to say that now, but the effect of doing something like that in the moment is that it does tend to diffuse the situation –

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: – because both parties tend to feel like, ‘Ah, you were listening to me.’ Not necessarily agreeing with them –

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: – but you’ve heard that they’ve now said the sky is blue, and you’re quite sure that it’s red. And so it seems to be a difference of opinion.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: This – it just – when you acknowledge both sides like that –

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: – it lets both people feel heard. People love to feel heard.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: They also like to be right. But if they’re not going to be right, they at least want to be heard. So I think it’s one piece of the confrontation is kind of stating both positions and stating the problem.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: And then you can go on to say, ‘Say, I understand’ – you know, ‘I get that you don’t, you know, agree with my position. Here’s why I feel like the sky is red.’

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: And that will give you time to go and gather your evidence –

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: – and rather – and – and you might feel differently. Rather than feeling like you’re having to defend yourself and they’re not –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – it – it just puts you in kind of a different frame, because it’s not as antagonistic now. Now that everyone’s been heard and you’re working together to solve this problem –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – it feels a little bit more like a group of people trying to resolve something, rather than you trying to defend yourself.

CLIENT: You know, and – and this actually makes – you know, this actually seems like a really good idea, because I know a lot of times like Jeremy and I will start fighting and I don’t really know what it’s about. [22:09:08]

THERAPIST: Ah, and that’s why you need to stall – you need to kind of state –

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: – ‘What’s the issue here? Are we really fighting about John Mayer?’

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or, you know, whoever you’re listening to, not John Mayer.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: So – but the – yeah, it’s like this – what are we really actually doing here?

CLIENT: And I think it’s like only when we get really upset and like – or you know, if I start crying. He’s like, ‘What – what’s really the problem?’

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Or you know, what’s – and it isn’t until like there’s hard feelings and then I guess if I start crying, I guess everything comes up.

THERAPIST: So – so if you go back to Jon Stewart –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – if you go back to that example with Jeremy, what – what would you have said? What could be the sort of resuscitation of the actual issue before – before you stormed off to the bedroom?

CLIENT: Well, I think I would be like – well, I would say – hmm, this is hard.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: The Twinkie issue. I would – well, I would say that, you know, I’m – my problem is that I am sad about Twinkies and I don’t like how – and making fun of other people for being sad. And you think that it’s funny and that since you don’t have any sort of personal connection to Twinkies that it’s ok. And I think we can agree to disagree, but just so – to prevent me from getting upset, maybe I should go into a different room so you can enjoy Jon Stewart and I won’t feel bad.

THERAPIST: Ok. So now I was listening – I was willing to listen to that whole piece because I’m a therapist and I will listen to you until you are done talking. It’s unlikely that your boyfriend is going to listen to a sentence that long –

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: – especially if he’s feeling already incensed about the Twinkie issue or your reaction to the Twinkie issue.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: In a confrontation when – when feelings are generally running high –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – people have a limited attention span –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – a limited tolerance for other people –

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: – sentences, so what – what you said was great.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I got to hear it because I’m not incensed and I’m your therapist.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: But what I want you to do is see if you can get that same idea across in a shorter sentence so that Jeremy could hear the whole thing. [24:45:18]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Do you want to – I’ll give you some paper if you want to work out – sometimes it’s easier to see everything you want to say, and then be able to condense it a little bit.

CLIENT: All right. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Do you have a preferred color that you like to right in?

CLIENT: Oh…

THERAPIST: Blue, green, red?

CLIENT: Oh, maybe green.

THERAPIST: Purple?

CLIENT: (laughs) How about yellow and green? All right, so – I guess – what was I really upset at? Well, I was upset at Jon Stewart. He just seemed very mean – I think I was just – very mean-spirited jokes. And it was – it was Twinkies – (pause, client writing). And Jeremy he likes “The Daily Show.”

THERAPIST: So pick the most important part of what you’ve written down there and say that piece. What – what’s the piece that transcends beyond that particular night?

CLIENT: I’d be like, ‘Jeremy, I enjoy spending time with you, but it’s not just about the Twinkies – Twinkies example. It’s just I really don’t watching the “Daily Show,’ because it makes me very upset.’

THERAPIST: So I think what the piece really is here –

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: – is, ‘Jeremy, I’m – it’s – it’s uncomfortable for me to watch this with you because of the mean-spiritedness makes me upset.’ [27:03:01]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I think that’s – it sounds like the issue was you felt with a different way than he responds to those types of jokes than you do. It’s not about whether they are making fun of Twinkies or Republicans or – you know, whatever next news item –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – is going to be the next focus of the show. But you’re upset – it’s uncomfortable for you to see him enjoy that particular slant, kind of in –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – the –

CLIENT: Yeah, it is.

THERAPIST: – the meanness of those jokes. They’re –

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean it is –

THERAPIST: – they’re cutting.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean they’re – they’re meant to like be cutting and –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. And that’s what’s uncomfortable for you, and I think that’s the piece where you really – I mean, that’s what you were reacting to, is that Jeremy enjoys – Jeremy – it – Jeremy was enjoying something that you felt like was mean.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, just sort of like, you know –

THERAPIST: Listen to how that –

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: – really felt to you.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that’s really – that’s at the point of it. I mean, I –

THERAPIST: And so guys could disagree about Hostess and Twinkies forever –

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: – and not – not feel like you resolved anything, because that’s not really what was bothering you. I mean, that was the topic of the day –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – but it was the way in which the – the humor was being used that felt wrong to you.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think it’s – yeah. And I think if I presented it that way, like because there’s – you know, and then suggested a solution, ‘Can we watch something else together?’

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And that would probably like really kind of diffuse the – because it would show that, you know, this is why I’m upset –

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: – and, ‘Can we resolve this together?’ [28:43:09]

THERAPIST: Because you guys are trying to resolve whether or not – whether or not you should feel personally affected by the Twinkie company going out of business?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And he was never going to convince you about that, because that’s not really what was really bothering you.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: I mean, yes, you had a reaction to that.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: But that doesn’t really impact your relationship in the way that – that understanding and appreciating a different kind of humor affects your relationship?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: There’s just going to be – you know, I think it’s just the content versus the underlying dynamic.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I think that – and I think the same as like this morning. I don’t think that we were really fighting about border patrol.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: It more or less the – it was more or less the – him not sort of validating my experiences.

THERAPIST: Ah, you felt doubted?

CLIENT: Yeah. And sort of, you know, like – I – yeah, I just felt really felt doubted that this experience even happened.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Or like, you know, maybe it was crazy talk. [29:47:09]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I think maybe that’s something that I should talk about tonight, is, you know, we both have both experiences – different experiences –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – but rather than negate them or feeling we have to defend them –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – we should piece them together to figure out what really does happen.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And you don’t really want to feel doubted –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – there or in group.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I know that – when I wrote that e-mail to Mason – or to the group saying that, you know, whoever signed up for all (inaudible) responded, I felt left out. I said I felt hurt, and surprised. I said that I thought we were a team. And then, you know, he explained himself.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So things were – got – got better. And – you know, I – I sort of felt like, ‘Yeah, that was a good e-mail.’ And there was another e-mail sent out about – I was using the computer cluster, like Cardboard’s (sic) Computer Cluster wrong, and this guys was like, ‘Don’t do this, you’re using up too much memory. If I catch you doing this again, I’ll disable your account.’ I don’t really know what I’m doing on the cluster. It’s amazing I actually get my programs to work. And so I was – you know, I was kind of like, ‘Wow, this is really harsh.’ I was kind of upset. But then I was like, ‘You know, I’m sorry. I didn’t know, I don’t have much experience with the cluster. I deeply Apollo – you know, I’m deeply sorry. Can you tell me how to work this program?’ [31:21:08]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And he was like, ‘Oh, no worries.’

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And he told me how. ‘You can ask me any questions.’ I mean, I still –

THERAPIST: Good for you.

CLIENT: Yeah, I – I felt like – you know, I said to (inaudible), you know, I – you know like –

THERAPIST: Yeah, you put out what the problem was, suggested a resolution.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Like I mean, I told them –

THERAPIST: ‘I’m disabling my account; could you maybe teach me how to correctly use them?’

CLIENT: Yeah, I know, I (laughs) –

THERAPIST: But you said it much nicer, without the smarminess.

CLIENT: Well, I believe mine, I was a little bit over the top. Like, I’m deeply sorry. I was like, ‘Well, actually no, I feel hurt.’

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I’m not going to tell them exactly how I feel, but I am going to say I’m sorry, that was not my intention. You know my intention – how do I actually run this interactively without like collapsing the cluster? I greatly appreciate your questions. And like I sort of – you know – I – I guess like in an e-mail form, I do have to slow down and think about it before I respond.

THERAPIST: Hmm, yeah, and that’s a fairly common trap with e-mail, texts. It can be so impulsive and automatic, because we can just send out what we want to say.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: And I think having – slowing down and having – really thinking more carefully about what we’re putting out there is – you know lots of people run into that trap of just trying to respond quickly and –

CLIENT: And I think –

THERAPIST: – and emotionally.

CLIENT: – maybe that’s why I’ve been getting in like little tiffs with Jeremy.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Is because – because I don’t know how to really sort of express like what’s the problem –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – and what’s a viable solution. [32:54:02]

THERAPIST: Yeah. And in – in thinking about trying to go about these confrontations in a more productive way, it’s not your job, on your own, to come up with the solution. You don’t have to have thought out the solution ahead of time. Your job is to accurately acknowledge, ‘What’s the real problem here?’

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: And then together, you and Jeremy come up with what the solution is.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Letting him be a piece of that. Your job is to figure out, ‘What are we actually fighting about? It’s not really about Twinkies and it’s not really about –

CLIENT: Borders.

THERAPIST: Or it seems to be (inaudible) –

CLIENT: – the border (laughs).

THERAPIST: – what’s going on is this is – you know, here’s the problem. How can we do this differently?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So you only have to take responsibility for making sure that one of you states what the – what is – what is the actual problem here?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, and I guess that’s maybe a major – like a major sort of things that – like I already feel that – I mean, I don’t, myself (laughs).

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I mean, sometimes I do say things that are kind of like – sometimes I do go a little bit overboard –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – and people can like – I mean, you know, with the understanding, people can say like, ‘What the hell are you talking about?’ [34:06:02]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And then, you know, later, I’ll explain – you know, but still it’s – yeah, I think that’s sort of like – I think I like to be – I guess everyone likes to be at least hurt –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – and acknowledged. And I think, you know, by restating what is the problem –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – both parties feel like they’re not being unheard.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I think why people restate their things and why things get louder and louder is because they’re like, ‘Can you hear me?’

THERAPIST: Right. You feel like you’re not heard, you keep saying the same thing, the other person keeps – and it just gets more and more intense. You just keep pulling harder on the tug of war.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah (laughs). And I found like, you know – and that – I think that by – you know, it’s just – it’s just really interesting because I see that in one sense, getting like really jarred up, it prevents me from taking a nap because I – I mean, I get really relaxed in the morning, which is a good thing, in one sense. And in another sense, like I need to – you know, someone – I do need to not take a nap. But also – but I found that it also distracts me, so that I can’t focus, I need to calm down. Like it really affects me in the whole body and like – it’s just really –

THERAPIST: It gets you really revved up?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And the difference between alert and hyper?

CLIENT: Yeah, like I mean this – it’s sort of like this tenseness through my body, and I find myself, ‘Ok, calm down.’ [35:30:03]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ‘What could happen? Calm down.’ I mean, it’s just so – I mean, and I just sort of see that, you know, I – you know, I’m working on trying to figure out how to calm down in situation.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like you know if – if I feel like something’s gross, ‘Ok, calm down.’ And you know, it’s good that I try to do that, but I sort of see like if – you know, if eliminate – if you figure out how to eliminate this situation – you know if I can eliminate getting an – anxious, then I don’t have to even –

THERAPIST: You don’t have to spend so much time going on – going up and being so aroused and coming back down. [36:11:12]

CLIENT: Yeah (laughs)

THERAPIST: Have – have a little bit more moderate –

CLIENT: Yeah, even-paced. And I think –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So…

THERAPIST: Well, we should probably wrap up there for today.

CLIENT: Ok.

THERAPIST: And here’s your note (inaudible). Do you want to save your sheet?

CLIENT: Maybe. Yeah, I do want to save it, because it will make me smile, and it will remind me.

THERAPIST: Yeah, just use it as an example of, you know, the next time you start arguing about a thing –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – an example of, ‘Ok, what are we going to distill this down to? What are we really – what’s really the issue?’

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And then I think we’re on for the 28th?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: After Christmas?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, I don’t want to be leaving yet.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: But I will be back.

THERAPIST: I will be here when you get back.

CLIENT: Yes. [36:54:13]

END TRANSCRIPT